discussion

Brendan Farenite
Yesterday at 4:04 AM
bullies are something I hate so much
welp, that hit me right into my feels. Ever read Wonderwall?(edited)
Leafia_Barrett
Yesterday at 4:25 AM
have not
Brendan Farenite
Yesterday at 4:27 AM
http://s7.zetaboards.com/Nuzlocke_Forum/topic/8810395/1/
Maybe you'll like it, it's a Yellow storylocke with the starter death clause
currently up to chapter 77
Leafia_Barrett
Yesterday at 4:28 AM
I am reading too many things at once now
sticks the link into the "runs" bookmark folder
Brendan Farenite
Yesterday at 4:29 AM
I have 16, yours included, all opened in different tabs
18, if we count the Witch Journal story and my own run
Leafia_Barrett
Yesterday at 4:29 AM
I close my browser window often enough that it doesn't make sense to do that
reading the opening blurb, it seems like this might be a good run to read to improve how I handle Celeste's character
Brendan Farenite
Yesterday at 4:30 AM
I leave them despite I too close the window
the characters are well written, especially the trainer and the Pikachu
also, I've got Hunter's Storm tab too, I'm at the Union Cave segment
Leafia_Barrett
Yesterday at 7:35 AM
Worm is certainly turning out to be quite the read
Brendan Farenite
Yesterday at 7:39 AM
it's interesting for sure
Leafia_Barrett
Yesterday at 7:53 AM
sorry, stepped away to get food so my head would stop hurting
what I've read of Worm so far has made me think about Celeste, about how Prediction works and how it can be used
and not just that
there's something else that I've really neglected throughout the run, aside from a couple of mentions offhand
Celeste is an empath
just thinking about how that could come into play if she really focused on its applications
I mentioned back in chapter... 14, I think it was? the second trip into the desert?
that Celeste could use her empathy as a sort of radar
the twins could as well, and theirs was a lot more potent because their very physiology was built around it(edited)
but now I'm thinking about how there could be more to it than that
Brendan Farenite
Yesterday at 7:59 AM
she could use it if she started training with it, the Twins helping her in the process
Leafia_Barrett
Yesterday at 7:59 AM
I don't think it's too much of a spoiler to say what explicitly happens in the game's scripting, you've played Black/White before I assume
Leafia_Barrett
Yesterday at 8:00 AM
3 or 4 steps into Chargestone Cave, the Shadow Triad ambushes the player and forcefully hauls them over to N
and that scene has a lot of potential, I feel
a lot of the actual planning phase has been around how I should handle that
I always worked under the assumption that the Triad had some means of concealing their mental presence, but the brain is a complex thing
so I've started thinking, what if the very physiology of the empaths/telepaths was a large part in countering them?
it would vary a little between individuals
...of one species
it would be almost completely different between different species
human telepaths aren't unheard of, so the Triad would have an answer to that
loads of pokemon have telepathy, so they would have an answer to that
Brendan Farenite
Yesterday at 8:04 AM
that's somethingh you can develop pretty well and make a great scene out of it(edited)
Leafia_Barrett
Yesterday at 8:04 AM
a few noteworthy species, such as Gardevoir and Lucario, are empaths, so they would have an answer to that
you see the hole in this, right?
Brendan Farenite
Yesterday at 8:04 AM
you stole the words out of my mouth
yes, I do, and pretty well
Celeste can anticipate the Triad
while the Twins would have greater difficult in doing so
Leafia_Barrett
Yesterday at 8:05 AM
humans that explicitly have the power of empathy (wow, it's awkward when you phrase it that way, isn't it?) are highly uncommon
telepathic humans can simulate it by getting a general gist of the individual's current thoughts
but Celeste can just outright detect feelings and intent
and because it's so uncommon, the Triad wouldn't have a carefully crafted answer to that
not one that's anywhere near as precision-built as to the common ones
Brendan Farenite
Yesterday at 8:07 AM
who knows, maybe they even never faced an empath before
Leafia_Barrett
Yesterday at 8:07 AM
they'd have SOMETHING to handle it
the information that Celeste is an empath isn't a secret
so it's likely they know and have attempted to plan accordingly
Brendan Farenite
Yesterday at 8:07 AM
being ninjas, I'm sure they do, but they most likely never really used it against a real life empath
Leafia_Barrett
Yesterday at 8:08 AM
but when you have nothing to go on, you kinda have to do guesswork
so she's not going to be able to hazard more than a vague guess at their LOCATIONS
the dialogue for the scene I'm imagining goes something like this
spoken from outside the cave entrance off in a corner, in sort of a hushed tone in case they're close enough to hear
"...Definitely human... More than one, less than ten. I can't get a bead on where they are any better than they're somewhere in this half of the cave. Can't figure out what exactly their intentions are, but I can at least say they're not friendly..."
and the trio + teams take a moment to figure out what to do(edited)
given that Celeste has now had two attempts made on her life, she's on high alert, which is why she was able to immediately pick up that something was off
like, basically Celeste steps into the cave and promptly steps back out before the others can follow, arms out to kinda push them away from the entrance
she has an off feeling on the approach to the cave, but as soon as she steps in, it clicks in her head what's off
and she basically nopes right back out
now, if you'll recall, I mentioned that Sasha was in the team at this time
Brendan Farenite
Yesterday at 8:16 AM
getting her catch in the process or that happening later?
yeah
Leafia_Barrett
Yesterday at 8:16 AM
this was not an accident.
Brendan Farenite
Yesterday at 8:17 AM
you're going with the "disguise as Celeste" part, I guess
Leafia_Barrett
Yesterday at 8:17 AM
the catch happens, Celeste heads back to the center for reasons, and this scene plays out on the third approach (first being the hunter incident)
and yes, I am.
Brendan Farenite
Yesterday at 8:17 AM
I knew it
Leafia_Barrett
Yesterday at 8:17 AM
before now, all I had in mind was a bare-bones framework
Brendan Farenite
Yesterday at 8:18 AM
I mean, Sasha transforming in Celeste for fun seemed like a foreshadowing to me
Leafia_Barrett
Yesterday at 8:18 AM
"Celeste steps in, senses something's off, steps out, trio discusses options, Sasha suggests ploy, and then THINGS"
yeah, that was unintentional foreshadowing
Brendan Farenite
Yesterday at 8:18 AM
gotta go eat lunch (14.30 here, bit late for lunch tbh), just keep writing, I'll read it once I'm back
Leafia_Barrett
Yesterday at 8:19 AM
I got the specific idea when writing that scene
what was initially just Sasha dicking around turned out to be a plot point, so I'm glad I picked that bit
now I have to plan out the logistics of the actual encounter
one thing that's problematic is that the trio are basically attached at the hips while traveling, so if "Celeste" goes in on her own, the Triad's immediately going to know something's up
and Sasha doesn't have Double Team, so she can't fake being the entire trio
(in the process of the initial brainstorming on this I put some thought into pokemon moves as utility, with that being one of the primary ideas)
she can disguise herself as any being
key word is being, singular
she cannot project fake copies of herself by default
however, Double Team does exactly that
and she can "disguise" each copy as something else, since they all have pseudo-autonomous functionality
(I always imagined Double Team to be illusions actually all taking different actions, with the user kinda controlling the copies; if they all just did the same thing, it would make it easy to pinpoint which one was the real thing)
fact is, though, she doesn't have the move, so it's a moot point
so one way or another, two of the three will have to legitimately go in
and given that Celeste is physically the frailest of the group and is still recovering from her earlier injury, the trio decide that Bianca and Cheren will be the ones to go
the fact that the group is a group and not one person actually gives the Triad proper reasoning to try to hoist Celeste and haul her over to N
so when they do appear, two of them grab Bianca and Cheren and restrain them, saying "You two, stay." and the third attempts to escort "Celeste" to N, saying "Come with me. Alone."
basically N trying to be face to face with Celeste and ONLY Celeste
I don't have the details of what follows next very clearly figured out, but
Brendan Farenite
Yesterday at 8:31 AM
given how N was raised alongside Pokemon more than wih humans, I'm willing to bet he'll know Sasha isn't Celeste
Leafia_Barrett
Yesterday at 8:31 AM
I just envision Sasha kinda jumping/backflipping away when the Triad tries to grab her and spitting a jet of flame at the ground, creating a wall of fire between her and them
she's not Dark/Fire yet but she DOES have Incinerate
however this won't really work because Bianca and Cheren are there
but it's just another thing in the train of thought regarding moves as utility
Brendan Farenite
Yesterday at 8:33 AM
Question: is Substitute already available at this point?
Leafia_Barrett
Yesterday at 8:33 AM
it is not
and even if it was she didn't have it
Brendan Farenite
Yesterday at 8:33 AM
but that would depend on how you envision Substitute working(edited)
Leafia_Barrett
Yesterday at 8:33 AM
that's one thing that gives me pause regarding the utility idea
how to balance utility moves and the fact that BlazeBlack will eat my face if I try assigning move slots to things strictly for plot
having Heal Pulse forced on Micaiah made me realize just how restrictive 3 move slots are
Brendan Farenite
Yesterday at 8:35 AM
you'll need to choose carefully who to teach said moves to and limit their number
Leafia_Barrett
Yesterday at 8:35 AM
so it gets even worse with 2 slots filled
or, god forbid, 3
Brendan Farenite
Yesterday at 8:35 AM
that would be so impeding
Leafia_Barrett
Yesterday at 8:35 AM
one of the other two might be able to get away with it
Brendan Farenite
Yesterday at 8:36 AM
but not Celeste's team
Leafia_Barrett
Yesterday at 8:36 AM
yeah.
another snippet of an idea that came to mind was that I recalled something from Chapter 19-2
namely that Bianca demonstrated that she was quite a bit stronger than she looked
and I was considering working that into the scene somehow
like, maybe she's been taking self-defense classes since the first attack happened or something
Brendan Farenite
Yesterday at 8:37 AM
as long as you don't make her pull a "Chuck lifting, G2 Style", the self defense should work well
if you aren't aware, G2 Chuck lifted and threw a Strenght Boulder in his pre battle dialogue
Leafia_Barrett
Yesterday at 8:38 AM
yeah, I know
the original concept when it I'd literally just thought of it wasn't anything nearly as coherent as what I just listed
it was just "Bianca showed she was strong in Ch19" and then the mental image of her grabbing the Triad member's hand and just kinda slinging him over her shoulder in a comical fashion
Brendan Farenite
Yesterday at 8:40 AM
XD
Leafia_Barrett
Yesterday at 8:40 AM
and everyone reacting basically how you would expect given Bianca's demeanor and appearance
it's obviously going to be something far more serious and logical than that
though a reaction will still be had, more likely than not
it may be put off until after the fact but it will be had
Brendan Farenite
Yesterday at 8:41 AM
that's certain. I'd suggest Karate as her self defense style of battling, mainly because I practiced it
nad it's also a martial art that aims to disable the opponent
Leafia_Barrett
Yesterday at 8:42 AM
I'm going to actually research self-defense, specifically how to handle being grabbed from behind
and if it's feasible, probably have that followed with some kind of kicking maneuver designed to knock someone off their feet (I already know a full-blown leg sweep isn't practical in the slightest so it's not going to be anything that flashy or practiced)
followed by her quickly getting out of the way before he can regain his composure and, um... insert something here and Cheren gets free
Brendan Farenite
Yesterday at 8:44 AM
Depending on how she is grabbed, legwork and weight shifting can throw off your grabber's balance
So she can then try to free herself by moving her arms and with a few well timed elbow strikes
She could even try to shift and headbutt the triad member
Leafia_Barrett
Yesterday at 8:47 AM
maybe Sasha uses the brief moment of surprise as an opening, since the Triad members would more likely than not be caught off-guard for a brief moment (a VERY brief moment but even so) given Bianca's known demeanor and appearance, and frees Cheren during that split second
she is incredibly agile, after all, it's not out of the question that she'd be able to make a movement like that in such a short time frame
and yeah, the next idea that came to mind after the comical one was Bianca somehow smacking the Triad member with the back of her head and breaking free when he reels back
first "reasonable" idea that came to my mind
before this all gets out of hand, though, N would step forward (he wouldn't be visible beforehand, he'd be a little further off screen) and defuse the situation
explaining that he wanted an audience with Celeste alone, and given recent events he wasn't naive enough to think they would be willing to play along
probably apologizing first, now that I think about it
and asking where Celeste is, and if he could maybe speak with her without the other two glued to her sides - all 3 of the Shadow Triad are in plain sight, and they're the only "surprise" force he has available - he doesn't have any other tricks up his sleeve, and he had no intentions of hurting any of them in the first place
not asking that they leave entirely, just that they stand back
Brendan Farenite
Yesterday at 8:57 AM
Then, there's the fact N was left speechless ladt time the two of them meet
Leafia_Barrett
Yesterday at 8:57 AM
so he can talk with her like the Ferris Wheel scene without having the other two being right there and ready to act if he so much as twitched the wrong way (which, even before the Triad showed up or before their presence was even a factor, they probably would have)
Brendan Farenite
Yesterday at 8:58 AM
Yeah
Leafia_Barrett
Yesterday at 8:58 AM
this is the point where Celeste rounds the corner and steps into the cave herself
Brendan Farenite
Yesterday at 8:58 AM
By the way, I need to go out. You just keep writing
Leafia_Barrett
Yesterday at 8:59 AM
see you when you get back, and I will
Brendan Farenite
Yesterday at 8:59 AM
I'll try to answer from the phone if connection allows me(edited)
Leafia_Barrett
Yesterday at 8:59 AM
even if she couldn't directly sense that he was being honest, she gathered enough info about what kind of person he was in their previous encounters to know that N probably couldn't lie even if he wanted to, let alone lie convincingly
Leafia_Barrett
Yesterday at 9:00 AM
he wears his heart on his sleeve, he's incredibly straightforward and speaks his mind regardless of what people might think
and lacks a few of the social understandings that people usually take for granted, as evidenced in their first encounter when he just walked up to them and started talking without introducing himself or anything of the sort
though she doesn't know WHY that particular detail is a thing (as players having played through the game, we know it's because of his... unusual upbringing, but Celeste obviously wouldn't know that)
that is one thing I may have to clarify
Empathy is not telepathy, and telepathy is not empathy
Celeste can sense intent, but she cannot read minds, she does not actually know what N is thinking and she cannot pry into his memories
all she knows is that she can sense that he's being genuine and it lines up with her previous encounters with him
...actually, come to think of it, telepathy isn't mind-reading either
I may have to make that distinction too
but I don't have any proper-sounding term for that like I do telepath/telepathy or empath/empathy
the term "psychic" would fit if this were a different setting
but that can't be used here for obvious reasons
clairvoyant is offered as a synonym by thesaurus.com, but I already used clairvoyance to describe a different phenomenon
namely, future sight
looking elsewhere, telesthesia is offered as an alternative word to mind-reading
but that leaves me to figure out a term for mind-reader
Leafia_Barrett
Yesterday at 10:05 AM
looking at the official definition of telepathy, mind-reading could be considered a form of it - "communication between minds by some means other than sensory perception"
but I feel like given the setting, a distinction would need to exist