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- [14:04:29] 5[14:04:29]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14so, to start, I am EvilSeph, one of the Minecraft developers at Mojang
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- [14:04:48] 5[14:04:48]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14I'm Grum, one of the Minecraft developers @ Mojang \o/
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- [14:05:12] 5[14:05:12]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14We also have Tahg from Mojang joining us to discuss the beginnings of the Minecraft API :)
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- [14:05:12] 5[14:05:12]15->>2| 11Tahg2 | 14Tahg, another dev at Mojang
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- [14:05:27] 5[14:05:27]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14let's go down the list and introduce ourselves please, starting with Afforess.
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- [14:05:49] 5[14:05:49]15->>2| 7Afforess2 | 14I'm Afforess, from Spout
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- [14:06:09] 5[14:06:09]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14<-- from Bukkit
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- [14:06:18] 5[14:06:18]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14I will go ahead and mention that Corosus is asleep and will join us when he wakes up
- [14:06:18] 4[14:06:18]Β Nick Alert From Channel: #minecraftdev
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- [14:06:41] 5[14:06:41]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14I'm Cojo, made the tropicraft SSP mod. I help out in #risucraft and the mcp team
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- [14:06:51] 5[14:06:51]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14Im DV8FromTheWorld, From MC Port Central. We merge Bukkit with Forge.
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- [14:07:14] 5[14:07:14]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14keep the introductions coming :)
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- [14:07:17] 5[14:07:17]15->>2| 7FlowerChild2 | 14FlowerChild, developer of Better Than Wolves, and the man you love to hate
- [14:07:23] 5[14:07:23]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14I am a developer of Canary.
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- [14:07:29] 5[14:07:29]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14Kulttuuri, Creator of MinecraftEdu plugin & Lead developer at the project.
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- [14:07:34] 5[14:07:34]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14Hey, we skipped Eloraam :(
- [14:07:35] 5[14:07:35]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14order doesn't matter, we just want everyone to know who people are for the log :)
- [14:07:39] 5[14:07:39]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14Ah ok
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- [14:07:45] 5[14:07:45]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14i'm Eloraam, author of RedPower, one of the Forge founders, and general troublemaker and malcontent. ;)
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- [14:07:48] 5[14:07:48]15->>2| 7LexManos2 | 14LexManos, From Forge
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- [14:07:51] 5[14:07:51]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14I am medsouz, I made a social networking mod for Minecraft called SocialMiner, I am also an active member of #risucraft which is the main client modding channel here at Esper.
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- [14:08:01] 5[14:08:01]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Hi, I'm Xie. I made Xie's Mod ^_^
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- [14:08:07] 5[14:08:07]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14i Xie!
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- [14:08:13] 5[14:08:13]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14I'm RoyAwesome, Client programmer for spout
- [14:08:13] 5[14:08:13]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14I'm UltraMoogleMan, I make various technically-involved mods like Kataminey Damacraft and CCTV, I'm a senior rendering engineer at Autodesk Scaleform, and I am the man *who* loves to hate
- [14:08:14] 5[14:08:14]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14:D
- [14:08:16] 5[14:08:16]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14I'm Searge - I created the MCP project, the tool 99% of the singleplayer mods and a lot of the existing API's depends on
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- [14:08:58] 5[14:08:58]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14I'm snowl, minecraft beta and classic server dev
- [14:09:06] 5[14:09:06]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14I'm sk89q, I write/wrote WorldEdit, WorldGuard, CraftBook and designed the config/permissions/few other things in Bukkit back in the day
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- [14:09:15] 5[14:09:15]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14I was aked to say 98% of sp mods, probably because some people can still live without MCP :p
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- [14:09:41] 5[14:09:41]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Searge: Some people are so hard core :)
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- [14:09:47] 5[14:09:47]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14:DD
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- [14:09:47] 5[14:09:47]15->>2| 7Afforess2 | 14^.^
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- [14:09:50] 5[14:09:50]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14:D
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- [14:09:53] 5[14:09:53]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14:o
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- [14:10:05] 5[14:10:05]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14as this is the first meeting and the beginnings of the API, we have a rough agenda for this meeting today
- [14:10:17] 5[14:10:17]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14but we anticipate that many of you will have a lot of things you'd like us to go over too
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- [14:10:38] 5[14:10:38]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14The agenda for today is as follows:
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- [14:10:42] 5[14:10:42]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Our plans for involving the community in the API development process for the future.
- [14:10:43] 5[14:10:43]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Our considerations on how we might handle contributions.
- [14:10:43] 5[14:10:43]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Our plans for keeping the community in the loop.
- [14:10:43] 5[14:10:43]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14The direction we're taking to prepare for the API.
- [14:10:43] 5[14:10:43]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14General Q&A.
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- [14:11:54] 5[14:11:54]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14(Type faster Evil! ;D)
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- [14:12:16] 5[14:12:16]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14So, to begin, we'd like to go over the rough ideas we have for how we'd like to go about further involving the community in the API development process
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- [14:13:04] 5[14:13:04]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14I wanted to start off the iniative by getting all the great minds in the Minecraft modding and plugin development community into the same room
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- [14:13:49] 5[14:13:49]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14but it's clear that this kind of system is more chaotic than we'd like
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- [14:14:06] 5[14:14:06]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14so, we're hoping to have a better system in place for future events:
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- [14:14:53] 5[14:14:53]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14GitHub for pull requests and API development/discussion
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- [14:15:10] 5[14:15:10]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14wiki for documentation/tutorials, javadocs for the API
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- [14:15:17] 5[14:15:17]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14javadocs :D
- [14:15:19] 5[14:15:19]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14^
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- [14:15:30] 5[14:15:30]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Yeah the API needs to be as documented as possible
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- [14:15:53] 5[14:15:53]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14saying "look through the code, the documentation is there" is not good enough :P
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- [14:16:05] 5[14:16:05]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Really? I thought people preferred zero documentation
- [14:16:09] 5[14:16:09]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Possibly have forums for developer orientated discussion and better feedback that doesn't require everyone to be online at the same time
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- [14:16:15] 5[14:16:15]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14o rally? :D
- [14:16:20] 5[14:16:20]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Stating the obvious isn't useful :P
- [14:16:21] 5[14:16:21]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Yeah, also the API will grow rather big over time; there are so many different aspects that have to be done.
- [14:16:32] 5[14:16:32]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14isn't the bulk of the API closed source?
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- [14:17:08] 5[14:17:08]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14As part of involving the community more, I'm hoping to develop an official Minecraft modding community where we could provide people with tools and resources to make plugin development easier
- [14:17:14] 5[14:17:14]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14What about first stating what exactly the API will be and contain globally?
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- [14:17:25] 5[14:17:25]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14The idea is to make the API some form of 'public source'; this will depend on what Mojang's lawyers will say about it. I think the minimal required shall be to give up rights on contributions to it.
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- [14:17:54] 5[14:17:54]15->>2| 7Afforess2 | 14Technically, API's can not be copyrighted in the US
- [14:17:55] 5[14:17:55]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14public repository with the interfaces of the api - not the api implementation or the game, just the api interfaces
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- [14:18:10] 5[14:18:10]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14^ ^
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- [14:18:11] 5[14:18:11]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14So the API is public (opensource, not sure which license), we can take contributions to it but the implementation will be as it is, in obfuscated code
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- [14:18:18] 5[14:18:18]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14we also have the option of utilising the Mojang Issue Tracker I am working on to manage API suggestions
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- [14:18:31] 5[14:18:31]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14but these are just rough ideas for what we had in mind moving forward
- [14:18:32] 5[14:18:32]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14APIs can't be copyrighted in europe either
- [14:18:35] 5[14:18:35]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Afforess: That is not what the court said, as much as I'd like it to be. Also that's a lower court in one federal district.
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- [14:18:41] 5[14:18:41]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14ew obfuscation :(
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- [14:18:55] 5[14:18:55]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14any thoughts on how we can make things easier for you guys in terms of communication?
- [14:19:09] 5[14:19:09]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Cojo: that won't change right now; the idea is however that we plan to implement Minecraft using the API itself
- [14:19:12] 5[14:19:12]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14We hope to provide a developer HUB filled with information relevant to developers
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- [14:19:20] 5[14:19:20]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14a dev community/hub would be really cool :)
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- [14:19:28] 5[14:19:28]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14as you cannot obfuscate the API itself, almost everything bar small parts of implementation will 'readable like normal'
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- [14:19:37] 5[14:19:37]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14I like the idea of a "dev" irc channel
- [14:19:39] 5[14:19:39]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14agreed with snowl
- [14:19:41] 5[14:19:41]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14(so over time the amount of obfuscated code will drop)
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- [14:19:50] 5[14:19:50]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14kinda like this but without 700 people watching :D
- [14:19:50] 5[14:19:50]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14a more detailed changelog, for example, listing all changes that might break your work in the upcoming update
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- [14:20:12] 5[14:20:12]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14We hope to keep backwards incompatible changes to a minimum by planning the API with help of the community
- [14:20:12] 5[14:20:12]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14that would be smart.
- [14:20:17] 5[14:20:17]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14Grum, I see :(
- [14:20:19] 5[14:20:19]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14all of this will take a lot of time and work and we hope to work hand in hand with the community to make it happen :)
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- [14:20:23] 5[14:20:23]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14I assume that the majority of user contributions woudl fall more into 'utility classes' and what not, since the implementation could only be reasonably be done by someone at mojang?
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- [14:20:44] 5[14:20:44]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Cojo: there should be no reason to need to even look at obfuscated code
- [14:20:48] 5[14:20:48]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14that is the goal
- [14:20:54] 5[14:20:54]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14I think github can provide a decent changelog just from commits
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- [14:20:57] 5[14:20:57]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14right
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- [14:21:00] 5[14:21:00]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14agreed.
- [14:21:00] 5[14:21:00]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14yes, though I imagine there would be some third party mods where implementation could be attempted and we could be directed to them
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- [14:21:35] 5[14:21:35]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14There are somethings planned for the future of the server/client that will influence what is needed for the API; the most significant part is that we plan to overhaul the client drastically
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- [14:21:35] 5[14:21:35]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Risugami, I'm not saying there is, but there may be things we don't wake to publically list despite being committed
- [14:21:41] 5[14:21:41]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14Grum, the kind of understanding from reading mcp code should be enough for modders to understand the inner workings of the game
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- [14:22:01] 5[14:22:01]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14Has been for me
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- [14:22:11] 5[14:22:11]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14if a breaking change is made, how long do you guys suppose the time for migration will be?
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- [14:22:19] 5[14:22:19]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Searge: It is unlikely from a legal aspect that MCP can be used by anyone affiliated with Mojang.
- [14:22:19] 5[14:22:19]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14The client should become a true client, without any influence bar giving input to the server
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- [14:22:23] 5[14:22:23]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14the time of deprecation I mean
- [14:22:30] 5[14:22:30]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14that's something that can't be predicted sk89q
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- [14:22:35] 5[14:22:35]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14sk89q: I suppose that would depend on the break
- [14:22:36] 5[14:22:36]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14oh, I see. That depends on the change, surely
- [14:22:39] 5[14:22:39]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14sk89q: the community will have to decide on that alongside mojang
- [14:22:41] 5[14:22:41]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Grum: Awesome, it needs it ^_^
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- [14:22:54] 5[14:22:54]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14I mean in the best case, when both can coexist
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- [14:23:14] 5[14:23:14]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14TkTech, MCP was used by mojang already, that's what jeb said in his answer on reddit ama
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- [14:23:16] 5[14:23:16]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14I was hoping people would have ideas on better ways to work together
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- [14:23:24] 5[14:23:24]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Another thing that needs to be said is that the idea is to make a plugin api where a plugin is a container of sorts (probably a jar, whatever we decide on) that contains the code for the particular plugin
- [14:23:25] 5[14:23:25]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14I've been unable to find the ideal platform for such a thing
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- [14:23:36] 5[14:23:36]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14The dev hub sounded cool, with forums and such for discussion, collaboration
- [14:23:38] 5[14:23:38]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Searge: I apologize in that case, wasn't aware of that.
- [14:23:41] 5[14:23:41]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14This goes along the lines of how Bukkit does it (or for example wow addons)
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- [14:23:52] 5[14:23:52]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14everything is spread apart so far: GitHub for pull requests and API development, a wiki for documentation, forums for discussion?
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- [14:24:01] 5[14:24:01]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Grum: I agree with that idea
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- [14:24:14] 5[14:24:14]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14i agree with Github, its an invaluble asset
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- [14:24:22] 5[14:24:22]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14Grum: thats the best way
- [14:24:24] 5[14:24:24]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Making it easier to get mods without injecting into the client is a good idea.
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- [14:24:28] 5[14:24:28]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Another thing is that we currently are removing SSP as it exist right now
- [14:24:34] 5[14:24:34]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14med, one thing at a time
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- [14:24:38] 5[14:24:38]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14SSP will become Local Multiplayer
- [14:24:44] 5[14:24:44]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14And javadocs
- [14:24:45] 5[14:24:45]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14this allows us to not write two implementations to do the same thing
- [14:24:47] 5[14:24:47]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14like diablo!
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- [14:24:59] 5[14:24:59]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14(also allows the client to be utterly stupid)
- [14:25:00] 5[14:25:00]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14EvilSeph: And this will be hosted by Mojang, using existing software?
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- [14:25:05] 5[14:25:05]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Cojo: No, like every game since Quake
- [14:25:07] 5[14:25:07]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Grum: That will make development considerably easier
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- [14:25:15] 5[14:25:15]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14:p
- [14:25:21] 5[14:25:21]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14(And SMP more secure :P)
- [14:25:22] 5[14:25:22]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14TkTech, I haven't really looked into this yet so I do not have an answer
- [14:25:23] 5[14:25:23]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Cojo: Diablo III is online multiplayer online, that's different
- [14:25:26] 5[14:25:26]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Xie: that is our goal yes; no more troubles making your stuff work on MP or SP or whatever, it should all be the same
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- [14:25:45] 5[14:25:45]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Saw that coming
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- [14:25:51] 5[14:25:51]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14Well I haven't played D3 so I shouldn't have even brought it up
- [14:25:52] 5[14:25:52]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14massively singleplayer online
- [14:25:52] 5[14:25:52]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Another thing is that we intend to create a central repo
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- [14:25:56] 5[14:25:56]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14lol
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- [14:26:12] 5[14:26:12]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14I am mostly sharing with you guys what we've been discussing since that meeting we had in Stockholm.
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- [14:26:30] 5[14:26:30]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Grum: Any plans to do a package manager for that repo or will it just be a website to download from
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- [14:26:34] 5[14:26:34]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14Grum: so basically you plan on adding most of the stuff (like movement, rendering and all) to be modified by the server?
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- [14:26:53] 5[14:26:53]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14Rendering would be handled by the client
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- [14:26:54] 5[14:26:54]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14Not the server
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- [14:27:04] 5[14:27:04]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14how we structure this will have to be decided later; but one of the features that it adds is being able to automatically get data from a trusted source when joining a server that requires something
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- [14:27:13] 5[14:27:13]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14i mean like, you can change where the GUI:s are created etc. or how far is it going?
- [14:27:14] 5[14:27:14]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14medsouz, we're hoping it will be a smooth experience that makes sense and focuses on ease of use but this is all subject to change
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- [14:27:16] 5[14:27:16]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14automatically update your mods, browse stuff from within the game and install it
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- [14:27:19] 5[14:27:19]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14medsouz: that covers it
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- [14:27:25] 5[14:27:25]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14Serverside rendering would not end well, if I had to guess
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- [14:27:29] 5[14:27:29]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14I think we should ask for features at the end and discuss the general concepts first
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- [14:27:35] 5[14:27:35]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14agreed
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- [14:27:53] 5[14:27:53]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14So in the end, even the movement that happends by input goes through a server?
- [14:28:01] 5[14:28:01]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14yeah
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- [14:28:09] 5[14:28:09]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14ideally the move is predicted on the client
- [14:28:09] 5[14:28:09]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14people have already requested doing '3rd party repos' -- what we do with this is undecided sofar
- [14:28:09] 5[14:28:09]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14Jarvix: read sarge ^
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- [14:28:25] 5[14:28:25]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14and the server does all the hard work
- [14:28:37] 5[14:28:37]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14I think eventually it needs to be added; but as we cannot guarantee that what you download is also what someone else uploaded
- [14:28:37] 5[14:28:37]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Wouldn't that idea break for lagging servers?
- [14:28:41] 5[14:28:41]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14So no more flymods, xray mods and asstd other hax? :P
- 12[14:28:47] * Svajoklis (Svajoklis@78-62-184-165.static.zebra.lt) Quit
- [14:28:48] 5[14:28:48]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14Grum: an apt-get like system?
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- [14:28:51] 5[14:28:51]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Jarvix: yes; also it removes almost all hacked clients
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- [14:28:59] 5[14:28:59]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14and, tbh, I would rather like to discuss (later) what mojang should not implement - and leave to modders - and what they should implement in the api
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- [14:29:01] 5[14:29:01]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: A simple "This download is untrusted, are you sure you want toΓ’β¬Β¦?" would suffice.
- [14:29:08] 5[14:29:08]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Obviously we'd like to do whatever we can to reduce the amount of malicious activity people can do
- [14:29:09] 5[14:29:09]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Snowl: perhaps; but a 3rdparty repo could for example have extra nagging of the client to ensure you 'want to download'
- [14:29:13] 5[14:29:13]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14TkTech: indeed
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- [14:29:23] 5[14:29:23]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14sounds good
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- [14:29:28] 5[14:29:28]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Yes which is fine. But it might disallow home-run servers for friends. Too slow.
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- [14:30:00] 5[14:30:00]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14On malicious things, the idea is to sandbox the plugins on client/server so you cannot 'do bad stuff'; optionally giving out 'rights to break out' if the user accepts
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- [14:30:18] 5[14:30:18]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Searge: I think the idea is to not have modders anymore
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- [14:30:32] 5[14:30:32]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14Then who would use the api?
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- [14:30:39] 5[14:30:39]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14right, but the concept of "trusted" is a fleeting thing and having a system where developers are marked as trusted isn't realistic
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- [14:30:49] 5[14:30:49]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Is sandboxing not way to much work?
- [14:30:49] 5[14:30:49]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14Grum, the solution is so easy - if the client does nothing more than IO, the server has the mods/plugins - end users are more or less safe
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- [14:30:58] 5[14:30:58]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Searge, that's the plan
- [14:30:58] 5[14:30:58]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Modders as in people cracking open the jar and changing things
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- [14:31:03] 5[14:31:03]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Jarvix: In the JVM it's actually relatively easy.
- [14:31:05] 5[14:31:05]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Searge: io limited to a folder we assign it for example
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- [14:31:07] 5[14:31:07]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14I like the optional IO usage, some mods require that but others could use it maliciously
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- [14:31:12] 5[14:31:12]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Agree with Searge
- [14:31:18] 5[14:31:18]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14we want to change Minecraft so that we stop trusting user input so much
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- [14:31:30] 5[14:31:30]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14that should fix all the current exploits except xray
- [14:31:37] 5[14:31:37]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14all you need to ensure - no way for server admins to steal client credentials
- [14:31:38] 5[14:31:38]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14dont trust the client. :
- [14:31:38] 5[14:31:38]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14quite easy to do
- [14:31:39] 5[14:31:39]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14:D
- 09[14:31:39] * ltouroumov (Mibbit@15-152.192-178.cust.bluewin.ch) has joined #minecraftdev
- [14:31:46] 5[14:31:46]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14so no more floating, breaking blocks behind you, breaking 100 blocks in a second god knows what :P
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- [14:31:57] 5[14:31:57]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14That is really awesome news for server admins
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- [14:32:02] 5[14:32:02]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14yea seriously.
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- [14:32:09] 5[14:32:09]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14this is however a MASSIVE change
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- [14:32:16] 5[14:32:16]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14what if certain servers want to keep their client mods somewhat private? what will happen in that situation?
- [14:32:20] 5[14:32:20]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14yeah the security is really something to pay attention into, but it also causes more bandwidth / resource usage for the server end, but that might be the only way to break the exploits from happening.. :)
- [14:32:22] 5[14:32:22]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14A lot of refactoring
- [14:32:25] 5[14:32:25]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14Grum, no more A** videos on youtube? booooring :p
- [14:32:34] 5[14:32:34]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14another thing that will be changing is that the client will somehow have to get custom assets (sounds/models/textures/etc)
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- [14:32:45] 5[14:32:45]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14(oh and blocks items etc)
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- [14:32:49] 5[14:32:49]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Kulttuuri: Actually, the bandwidth usage will continue to be similar.
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- [14:32:58] 5[14:32:58]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14we will have to devise external formats for most of these thing so they can be communicated simply
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- [14:33:05] 5[14:33:05]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14sweet
- [14:33:06] 5[14:33:06]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14THis all sounds like a rewrite of the full server (which is not a bad thing at all).
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- [14:33:12] 5[14:33:12]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Grum: Xie's Mod acquires custom assets from servers as of Jun26 ^_^
- 12[14:33:14] * Ed (Mibbit@cpc1-aztw15-0-0-cust927.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
- [14:33:14] 5[14:33:14]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Kulttuuri: Instead of sending 16 bytes saying you moved X, you send only a few bytes saying you pressed left.
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- [14:33:22] 5[14:33:22]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Kulttuuri: (as a bad example)
- [14:33:23] 5[14:33:23]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14full rewrite*
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- [14:33:30] 5[14:33:30]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14yea as an simple example yes
- [14:33:30] 5[14:33:30]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14any plans to dump SoundManager in favor of a sound engine that supports loading from zips?
- [14:33:30] 5[14:33:30]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14sk89q: we have to see hwo to solve this; as it is looking how we might not need *ANY* code on the client
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- [14:33:44] 5[14:33:44]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14besidez
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- [14:33:54] 5[14:33:54]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14besides renderinng
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- [14:34:00] 5[14:34:00]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14sk89q: it should be easy enough if we allow 3rd party repos to allow this for the server itself as well
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- [14:34:06] 5[14:34:06]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Snowl: Any code that isn't from mojang :P
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- [14:34:11] 5[14:34:11]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Risugami: we need to overhaul all assetmanaging
- [14:34:14] 5[14:34:14]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Will it be like Source where the server sends you the files you need when you join it?
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- [14:34:21] 5[14:34:21]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14medsouz, yes
- [14:34:21] 5[14:34:21]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14so yes; we will need to make something that doe sthat
- [14:34:30] 5[14:34:30]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14user prompted, of course
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- [14:34:44] 5[14:34:44]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14we already started exploring that idea with texture packs
- [14:34:45] 5[14:34:45]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14medsouz: yes; but likely the server will tell you what it is named and where you can get it
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- [14:34:55] 5[14:34:55]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14WOn't this (nearly) blow up the server? It's implementation has to be utterly efficient.
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- [14:34:59] 5[14:34:59]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14the texture pack setup is a good move forward
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- [14:35:08] 5[14:35:08]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Jarvix: which implementation?
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- [14:35:09] 5[14:35:09]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Jarvix, how so? it would be sent from the repo
- [14:35:12] 5[14:35:12]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14of the server.
- [14:35:12] 5[14:35:12]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14not the server itself
- [14:35:15] 5[14:35:15]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14well, sounds pretty nice if you can just join & server sends you all the blocks, items & textures. Is this where you are heading into?
- [14:35:19] 5[14:35:19]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Jarvix: it could send you a URL and make you download it via HTTP
- 09[14:35:20] * Daan (~Daan@ip51cc8638.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl) has joined #minecraftdev
- [14:35:23] 5[14:35:23]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14I mean the whole Citrix-idea.
- [14:35:26] 5[14:35:26]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Kulttuuri, that's the idea, yes
- [14:35:30] 5[14:35:30]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Jarvix: so the server would tell the client: 'go get X v1.0; Y v2.1' and it would get it from the repo
- [14:35:30] 5[14:35:30]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14EvilSeph: i like it.
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- [14:35:35] 5[14:35:35]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14(or from its cache if the client already has it)
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- [14:35:50] 5[14:35:50]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14i mean the thin-client part. sorry, 10 lines back.
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- [14:35:53] 5[14:35:53]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14and we'll obviously try and introduce failsafes for if a block is in the world that no longer exists because the plugin is no longer active
- [14:35:59] 5[14:35:59]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14for example
- [14:36:02] 5[14:36:02]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14Mind you, when you disconnect, you need an option to either a) keep the stuff you download for the server
- 12[14:36:02] * BCsiefert (webchat@CPE00195b4b739a-CM00195ee66226.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
- [14:36:06] 5[14:36:06]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14or b) get rid of it.
- [14:36:12] 5[14:36:12]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14the client should cache the plugins it downloads
- [14:36:13] 5[14:36:13]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Jarvix: Um, I don't think you understand what they've said
- [14:36:15] 5[14:36:15]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Cache it
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- [14:36:19] 5[14:36:19]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14exactly.
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- [14:36:36] 5[14:36:36]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Amaranth i think i do understand.
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- [14:36:47] 5[14:36:47]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14mind you, if i join 50 servers in one day trying to find what i want to play on, it might get...hectic
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- [14:36:48] 5[14:36:48]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Grum: it will use MD5 hashes to verify the files correct?
- [14:36:51] 5[14:36:51]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Jarvix: The client handles rendering, the server just provides it with the assets to render. We aren't talking render on the server and RDP things
- [14:36:56] 5[14:36:56]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14So another thing that came up right after; if someone updates a texture; i have to download the whole package again, (ditto for code; or even worse for localisation)
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- [14:37:06] 5[14:37:06]15->>2| 7FlowerChild2 | 14is this auto-download system really API related? It seems that there are much more fundamental issues which would need to be addressed first
- [14:37:07] 5[14:37:07]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14it's important to store ID mappings with worlds, I want to be able to send a worldsave to a friend, even if he has a differnt set of mods and different IDs for blocks, items, etc.
- [14:37:13] 5[14:37:13]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14medsouz: some hash perhaps
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- [14:37:24] 5[14:37:24]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Jarvix: The server already does pretty much everything except UI anyway if you think that would be extra load :P
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- [14:37:29] 5[14:37:29]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Searge: yes internally we need to get rid of ID's except when we write things to disk or communicate with a client
- [14:37:34] 5[14:37:34]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Mmm.
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- [14:37:48] 5[14:37:48]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14*cough dynamic ids cough*
- [14:37:48] 5[14:37:48]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14items have to be 'server wide' and blocks should be per world
- [14:38:03] 5[14:38:03]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14question
- [14:38:03] 5[14:38:03]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14medsouz: An MD5 hash would only be suitable for making sure the download is in tact, not for verification. It is possible these days to create hash collisions.
- [14:38:04] 5[14:38:04]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Maybe a hashmap stored in the save that maps the block name to an id
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- [14:38:11] 5[14:38:11]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14if you cached these plugins/mods
- [14:38:15] 5[14:38:15]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Searge: yes so the server stores which id's are stored for whick 'identifier' in some way
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- [14:38:19] 5[14:38:19]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14on a local server
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- [14:38:26] 5[14:38:26]15->>2| 7Afforess2 | 14Been there, done that
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- [14:38:33] 5[14:38:33]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14could you force the use of them on another server?
- [14:38:37] 5[14:38:37]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14So every save will have "Stone" but what id is given to it can be different
- [14:38:39] 5[14:38:39]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14TkTech: verification could come from the fact that you can download over ssl and verify the location you download it from
- [14:38:41] 5[14:38:41]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14that might be a problem.
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- [14:38:47] 5[14:38:47]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14just use a sha1 hash instead of an md5... it's a no-brainer.
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- [14:38:49] 5[14:38:49]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Will we continue talking about the assets or will we discuss the actual API?
- [14:38:52] 5[14:38:52]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14and SHA1 anti colissions ;)
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- [14:39:01] 5[14:39:01]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14jarvix, one thing at a time :P
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- [14:39:17] 5[14:39:17]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14I also think the exact details of using SHA1 or MD5 don't really matter at this time :P
- [14:39:18] 5[14:39:18]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14Grum, exactly, in my opinion ALL internal IDs in the game should be dynamically assigned when you create a new world and the mapping stored as part of the worlds .dat file
- [14:39:20] 5[14:39:20]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14evilseph: your example was
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- [14:39:30] 5[14:39:30]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: That only ensures /where/ you are downloading it from, not what you're downloading from there, which affects sites hosting public mods, for example.
- [14:39:32] 5[14:39:32]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Snowl, sorry?
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- [14:39:32] 5[14:39:32]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Anyhow; one problem is localisation; i'd like to make localisation external for *everything* (including minecraft itself)
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- [14:39:38] 5[14:39:38]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: Which would require per-jar signing.
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- [14:39:42] 5[14:39:42]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14so no-one is required to keep updating 500 languages
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- [14:39:49] 5[14:39:49]15->>2| 7Afforess2 | 14Searge, Grum, why are we even discussing this stuff? I assume that everyone agrees dynamic ids, hashing assets are good ideas
- [14:39:50] 5[14:39:50]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14Handling invalid blocks items
- [14:39:51] 5[14:39:51]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14TkTech: yes
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- [14:40:02] 5[14:40:02]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Afforess: that is why we blaze past them
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- [14:40:04] 5[14:40:04]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Snowl, yes?
- [14:40:06] 5[14:40:06]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14stuff has to be mentioned at least
- [14:40:17] 5[14:40:17]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14DV8FromTheWorld sure, but I still think we should be talking about interfaces and not (detailed) implementations, yet.
- [14:40:18] 5[14:40:18]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14is there going to be any checks for conflicting plugins, for instance if several plugins modify same game functionality, you will get a warning for that?
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- [14:40:24] 5[14:40:24]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Snowl: yes on handling invalid blocks (ea you load a world with a block that was made by aplugin that is now gone)
- [14:40:26] 5[14:40:26]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14a completely dynamic ID assignment would also allow modders to disable parts of existing game mechanics, everyone talks about adding features - i have at least 5 mod ideas that basically just remove/disable mc features
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- [14:40:27] 5[14:40:27]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14jarvix, totally agree
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- [14:40:41] 5[14:40:41]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14make a first pass on stuff
- [14:40:43] 5[14:40:43]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Snowl: my idea on that was to register a 'default behavior' for when that should happen
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- [14:40:50] 5[14:40:50]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14come back to it later for more indepth
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- [14:40:52] 5[14:40:52]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14I agree, we don't want to get so technical so soon
- [14:40:55] 5[14:40:55]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14Grum: ok
- [14:40:58] 5[14:40:58]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Kulttuuri: They aren't modifying the same files (no more modifying files!) so I'm not sure how doable that'd be
- [14:41:03] 5[14:41:03]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14SnoobY: this is a bit indept
- [14:41:07] 5[14:41:07]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14meh cat in front of screen!
- [14:41:10] 5[14:41:10]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14lol Snowl
- [14:41:11] 5[14:41:11]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14lol
- [14:41:11] 5[14:41:11]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14sorry =)
- [14:41:12] 5[14:41:12]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14okay
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- [14:41:30] 5[14:41:30]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14So what has to be in this API?
- [14:41:31] 5[14:41:31]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Searge, the dream is to make Minecraft completely modular
- [14:41:36] 5[14:41:36]15->>2| 11Tahg2 | 14Kulttuuri, not sure how possible that is
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- [14:41:37] 5[14:41:37]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14so one thing we have to do somewhere along the line; is decide which areas to cover in the API
- [14:41:38] 5[14:41:38]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14xie, technical would be "I want void removeBlock(int id)", basic concepts is "I want to disable features" :p
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- [14:41:42] 5[14:41:42]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Hate creepers? Yank the Creeper plugin out
- [14:41:52] 5[14:41:52]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Searge: fair point
- [14:41:53] 5[14:41:53]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Searge: would be by string but yes
- [14:42:03] 5[14:42:03]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14we want to get the API to a point where we are developing with it - that is when we know the API is good :)
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- [14:42:09] 5[14:42:09]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14(and the world would map it to an id if it knows it)
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- [14:42:14] 5[14:42:14]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14EvilSeph: I like it!
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- [14:42:26] 5[14:42:26]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14So less hardcoded content?
- [14:42:29] 5[14:42:29]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14EvilSeph: Sounds good!
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- [14:42:35] 5[14:42:35]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14EvilSeph, that seems a bit cumbersome. Perhaps all the default mojang "plugins" can be more configurable
- [14:42:35] 5[14:42:35]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14I said that way back!
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- [14:42:45] 5[14:42:45]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14the extra bonus is that each module could act as an example for the API usage too
- [14:42:47] 5[14:42:47]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14EvilSeph, as soon as the default minecraft game mechanics are all just a bunch of plugins to the core engine, I think you basically have an API that most people could use
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- [14:42:52] 5[14:42:52]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Cojo: if we do not use the plugin api ourselves then we do not test it properly
- [14:42:54] 5[14:42:54]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14less hardcoded content, more stuff abstracted to interfaces
- [14:42:55] 5[14:42:55]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14like a checkbox of sorts rather than having to take stuff out and put stuff in
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- [14:42:57] 5[14:42:57]15->>2| 7Afforess2 | 14Minecraft as a modular plugin, dynamic ids, hashed content....sounds familiar.
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- [14:43:07] 5[14:43:07]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Grum, could we move on to the API instead of what we will do with IDs please? ...
- [14:43:08] 5[14:43:08]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Afforess: not multithreaded! =D
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- [14:43:21] 5[14:43:21]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Afforess: I've yet to see you say anything useful
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- [14:43:26] 5[14:43:26]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14Grum, fair enough. but that's going to be a lot of plugins loaded, so that system better be pretty well optimized
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- [14:43:39] 5[14:43:39]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14well in Bukkit people load 200-300 plugins
- [14:43:44] 5[14:43:44]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14it shouldn't really matter
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- [14:43:57] 5[14:43:57]15->>2| 11Tahg2 | 14having core in plugins won't really be any worse than hardcoded
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- [14:44:04] 5[14:44:04]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14maybe some way to reduce conflicting plugins could be a way so that it automatically lists what was modified with the plugin / user adds the functionaltiy that the plugin has / user adds possibly conflicting plugins etc...
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- [14:44:19] 5[14:44:19]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Ok, so just to make 1 thing clear; the idea is to *NEVER* need to break open the jarfile anymore
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- [14:44:33] 5[14:44:33]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Kulttuuri: In practice that is not easy to implement or maintain.
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- [14:44:42] 5[14:44:42]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14yea thats what i though
- [14:44:46] 5[14:44:46]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14so yes; initially we will lack features; so people will still want to do that as they are doing now, but over time; hopefully with help of everyone we can get ~95% of the requested things covered
- [14:44:47] 5[14:44:47]15->>2| 7Afforess2 | 14Amaranth: anything useful
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- [14:44:51] 5[14:44:51]15->>2| 7Afforess2 | 14said it ^/^
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- [14:45:00] 5[14:45:00]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14so you'd just have to live with it :p
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- [14:45:08] 5[14:45:08]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14Grum, I'm able to mod ANY part of minecraft without even touching the minecraft.jar file :p *ducks and hides*
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- [14:45:09] 5[14:45:09]15->>2| 7FlowerChild2 | 14Grum: Jeb (I think it was him) made the point awhile ago that both mods and plugins would continue to exist. Are you saying here that will not be the case?
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- [14:45:25] 5[14:45:25]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14FlowerChild, the goal is to make mods no longer necessary
- [14:45:26] 5[14:45:26]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14FlowerChild: hacking open the jar you can always do
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- [14:45:38] 5[14:45:38]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14but we won't force you to stop
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- [14:45:42] 5[14:45:42]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Grum but will it be legally condoned
- [14:45:43] 5[14:45:43]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14but its not supported by any sort of install system, or attempt to resolve conflicts or anything; you are on your own as you are now
- [14:45:47] 5[14:45:47]15->>2| 7FlowerChild2 | 14because frankly, I don't see an API being able to cover all the functionality I need for BTW within the next year :)
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- [14:45:52] 5[14:45:52]15->>2| 15Cojo highfives Searge2 |
- [14:45:54] 5[14:45:54]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14unless you fix the security hole in the launcher....
- [14:45:56] 5[14:45:56]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14FlowerChild: like what?
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- [14:45:59] 5[14:45:59]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14if we can achieve that goal, we're very close to a very good API :)
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- [14:46:06] 5[14:46:06]15->>2| 7LexManos2 | 14Mods will continue to exist due to that 5% that the API will never be able to cover.
- [14:46:07] 5[14:46:07]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14SO if we DO crack open a Jar, decompile and release such code, we will not get sued?
- [14:46:11] 5[14:46:11]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Like it is now?
- [14:46:16] 5[14:46:16]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14FlowerChild: Sounds like a challenge, like what
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- [14:46:25] 5[14:46:25]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14So BTW can carry on as it is now, and other mods like it
- [14:46:28] 5[14:46:28]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Things are not changing in that regard
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- [14:46:36] 5[14:46:36]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14LexManos: the 5% could be something like 'i need to change the whole world so its not minecraft anymore' .. yeah erm you can do that .. but i am quite sure you might be able to do what you want with the API
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- [14:46:50] 5[14:46:50]15->>2| 7FlowerChild2 | 14my mod makes extensive base-class changes, I believe to something like 50+ files, including some very obscure functionality that wouldn't really make sense as part of an API
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- [14:46:54] 5[14:46:54]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14you can *never* create an API that covers everything; lets aim to please everyone as good as possible
- [14:46:57] 5[14:46:57]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14MCP decided to keep the project alive as long as we have at least a certain amount of users/downloads, so this option will not disappear anytime soon, nevertheless, only using the official API will make your mods compatible with new minecaft version without hassle
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- [14:47:03] 5[14:47:03]15->>2| 7LexManos2 | 14Grum, thats what i said...
- [14:47:04] 5[14:47:04]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14Maybe you shouldn't make such extensive base-class changes
- [14:47:06] 5[14:47:06]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14FlowerChild: name one thing please :)
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- [14:47:09] 5[14:47:09]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14FlowerChild the idea is you won't need to make base class changes
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- [14:47:16] 5[14:47:16]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14I can't speak from a legal standpoint as I am not a lawyer, but we do not have any plans to change the way things are currently
- [14:47:17] 5[14:47:17]15->>2| 7FlowerChild2 | 14ok, here's a good example: wolves producing dung
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- [14:47:21] 5[14:47:21]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14that is easy
- [14:47:24] 5[14:47:24]15->>2| 7FlowerChild2 | 14do you seriously see a hook for that?
- [14:47:25] 5[14:47:25]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14sorry bout that, internet died.
- [14:47:26] 5[14:47:26]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14at least we can be sure that any mods done to the client will have the api in their modified code, unless they are stupid
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- [14:47:37] 5[14:47:37]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14that is behavior for a wolf; they occasionally spawn 'dung entities' on the world
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- [14:47:48] 5[14:47:48]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14so to implement that; we need to be able to add behavior to entities
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- [14:47:49] 5[14:47:49]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14please bear in mind, everything said here today is not set in stone, but these are the goals and ideas we're hoping to realise eventually :)
- [14:47:49] 5[14:47:49]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14You add a Behavior to the wolf "Spawn Item"
- [14:47:52] 5[14:47:52]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14and then we are set
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- [14:47:58] 5[14:47:58]15->>2| 7FlowerChild2 | 14ok, so you see us being able to hook into any entities update cycle?
- [14:48:03] 5[14:48:03]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14no
- [14:48:06] 5[14:48:06]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14no 'raw hooking'
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- [14:48:13] 5[14:48:13]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14Generalize it to a periodic behavior that you can add to an entity's "task list"
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- [14:48:16] 5[14:48:16]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14think of what you need and think of how you can provide an API for it that 'makes sense'
- [14:48:17] 5[14:48:17]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14I feel like a lot of what modders need could be accomplished with the shared github
- [14:48:23] 5[14:48:23]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14So can one of the mojangastas here confirm that the policy on modding will NOT change?
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- [14:48:29] 5[14:48:29]15->>2| 7LexManos2 | 14MC already has 'AI Tasks' that you could use quite easily to produce said dung
- [14:48:30] 5[14:48:30]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14ES confirmed it
- [14:48:31] 5[14:48:31]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14A lot of modders seem to think that everything needs to be done in a very specific way
- [14:48:33] 5[14:48:33]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14Jarvix
- [14:48:36] 5[14:48:36]15->>2| 7LexManos2 | 14No base edits needed
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- [14:48:37] 5[14:48:37]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Jarvix: there is no indication it will change right now; so yes it will not change
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- [14:48:40] 5[14:48:40]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14Yeah, what LexManos said, too
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- [14:48:55] 5[14:48:55]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14To clarify an earlier question; Will only the absolute core and interfaces be implemented in minecraft_server.jar (for example) and everything - including for example world generation - would structurally be implemented as a plugin?
- [14:48:59] 5[14:48:59]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14That is good to hear.
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- [14:49:01] 5[14:49:01]15->>2| 7FlowerChild2 | 14does that include adding the task to the specific entity Lex?
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- [14:49:08] 5[14:49:08]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14TkTech: yes worldgeneration is one of the things that we will add
- [14:49:10] 5[14:49:10]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Bah, modem died
- [14:49:11] 5[14:49:11]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14The advantage of this is forcing the API to get fleshed out by a minimal practical application.
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- [14:49:15] 5[14:49:15]15->>2| 7LexManos2 | 14Yes it does FC
- [14:49:15] 5[14:49:15]15->>2| 15ShaRose just got online for the first time today2 |
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- [14:49:22] 5[14:49:22]15->>2| 7FlowerChild2 | 14cool...will check it out then ;)
- [14:49:23] 5[14:49:23]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14:o
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- [14:49:40] 5[14:49:40]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14also like Bukkit has -- a form of multiworlds (so you can create your own worlds, link them up in some way (make your own gating system) and provide your own generators
- [14:49:41] 5[14:49:41]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14I don't see why it'd be one plugin
- [14:49:46] 5[14:49:46]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14Grum, EvilSeph, even though you create an official api to use and (ofc) want everyone to use it, how much would you refuse to add smaller changes requested from the community if their only purpose would be to make "classical" modding easier?
- [14:49:48] 5[14:49:48]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14TkTech, we're not currently sure how far we want to go with making things modular but the dream is to have everything that makes sense to be modular, be modular.
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- [14:50:06] 5[14:50:06]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Searge: there is no reason to do classical modding if there is an API to do the same not?
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- [14:50:14] 5[14:50:14]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14If you have one massive plugin you'd then have to have one massively huge complicated config file to be able to fine tune what parts of it you want
- [14:50:14] 5[14:50:14]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14so why would be taint a clean system with things like that?
- [14:50:21] 5[14:50:21]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14we'd have to address that on a case by case basis, Searge..it's hard to have a sweeping response to that question
- [14:50:34] 5[14:50:34]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14yes; if there is no way to do something and there is enough support/merrit to do something 'the hard way' then we can look into adding it anyhow
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- [14:50:46] 5[14:50:46]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Grum: Some things it seems like you will only be able to do with "classical" modding
- [14:50:49] 5[14:50:49]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14like?
- 09[14:50:54] * marktech (~marktech@108-78-138-236.lightspeed.milwwi.sbcglobal.net) has joined #minecraftdev
- [14:50:56] 5[14:50:56]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14I am quite sure I can put most things in an API
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- [14:50:57] 5[14:50:57]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14OptiFine for example
- [14:51:02] 5[14:51:02]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14overriding the entity renderer
- [14:51:02] 5[14:51:02]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14optifine which way? shaders?
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- [14:51:09] 5[14:51:09]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Cojo: overriding it to do *what*
- [14:51:09] 5[14:51:09]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14editing the rendering code
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- [14:51:15] 5[14:51:15]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14edit it to do what?
- [14:51:20] 5[14:51:20]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14run better
- [14:51:21] 5[14:51:21]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14a whooooole lot
- [14:51:21] 5[14:51:21]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14I don't know if anyone has already asked it yet (Haven't re-read everything that's been said so far, since for a lot of it I'd need to pull logs off my bouncer), but it might be a good idea to let people make API extensions that could be on the repo (until they get pulled into the vanilla API that is)
- [14:51:25] 5[14:51:25]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14DV8FromTheWorld: planned
- [14:51:29] 5[14:51:29]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14Cojo: Why would you want to override the EntityRenderer?
- [14:51:33] 5[14:51:33]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14be more efficient, work a bit differently, etc
- [14:51:33] 5[14:51:33]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14bloody awesome
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- [14:51:36] 5[14:51:36]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14Corosus had to do it for his tornadoes
- [14:51:36] 4[14:51:36]Β Nick Alert From Channel: #minecraftdev
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- [14:51:37] 5[14:51:37]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14please try and be more specific, so we can more easily address your concerns :)
- [14:51:38] 5[14:51:38]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14ShaRose that was discussed earlier
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- [14:51:42] 5[14:51:42]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14my 15 FPS praises you
- [14:51:45] 5[14:51:45]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14medsouz: we are rewriting the rendering engine soon
- [14:51:47] 5[14:51:47]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14RoyAwesome thought so
- [14:51:50] 5[14:51:50]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14Mcedu has something like 200 modified + added files and external software does some changes to how it works, so we can't really too go into the API. Big mods like this will probably still live over the API.
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- [14:51:57] 5[14:51:57]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14as said, internet has been dead all day
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- [14:52:08] 5[14:52:08]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14Also, you can't even change water fog color without editing the entityrenderer
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- [14:52:24] 5[14:52:24]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14Cojo: <@Grum> medsouz: we are rewriting the rendering engine soon
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- [14:52:32] 5[14:52:32]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Cojo: and that should just be a property of the world (perhaps per player)
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- [14:52:41] 5[14:52:41]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14we think the API is going to be awesome, for the community, for the developers and for us. If we can avoid people having to update their plugins every single update and we can avoid people running into conflicts, I really feel like it would benefit everyone :)
- [14:52:41] 5[14:52:41]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14saw
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- [14:52:44] 5[14:52:44]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14Grum: It would be a property of the material itself
- [14:52:45] 5[14:52:45]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Then the ideal solution is not to allow overriding the entity render, but make it flexible enough to support these modifications with the API.
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- [14:52:50] 5[14:52:50]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14UltraMoogleMan: yeah or of the skybox
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- [14:52:58] 5[14:52:58]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14Grum: The block has a material that sets the fog uniform in the fragment shader
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- [14:53:03] 5[14:53:03]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14TkTech: yes that is the idea
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- [14:53:14] 5[14:53:14]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14but i'd really like to see API cover almost every case of a mod that people create nowadays :)
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- [14:53:25] 5[14:53:25]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Kulttuuri, that's largely impossible
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- [14:53:33] 5[14:53:33]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Kulttuuri: well, lets put our heads together; write up the requirements and then define an API that can do it
- [14:53:40] 5[14:53:40]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14that is why we are here
- [14:53:49] 5[14:53:49]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14Kulttuuri, talk to me in PM after this discussion ;)
- [14:53:50] 5[14:53:50]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14it's a great goal to have, but I don't believe we can reach that point - there are some sacrifices we are going to have to make
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- [14:53:52] 5[14:53:52]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Wouldn't it be interesting if you could set fog colours by a method, so (for example) you could have fog colour by biome?
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- [14:53:53] 5[14:53:53]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14So Grum can we start on that?
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- [14:53:59] 5[14:53:59]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14Grum: yep! will do :)
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- [14:54:05] 5[14:54:05]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14ShaRose: Yes, that's trivial to do
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- [14:54:08] 5[14:54:08]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Of course not using the API is going to be very painful from what you've said
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- [14:54:12] 5[14:54:12]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14ShaRose: perhaps; if you can set it per player or area or state or whatever :/
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- [14:54:17] 5[14:54:17]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Jarvix, that's the plan and the next step in this initiative :)
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- [14:54:21] 5[14:54:21]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14its just a property of the view of the player
- [14:54:21] 5[14:54:21]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14yeah, make it a method
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- [14:54:48] 5[14:54:48]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14EvilSeph: Is that a role of the developer hub we referred to earlier? To collect a list of desired supported features?
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- [14:54:50] 5[14:54:50]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14hesitated to specifically say that because I didn't know how much lag it'd generate
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- [14:55:12] 5[14:55:12]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14There's no reason why fog color couldn't be abstracted to be per-biome
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- [14:55:20] 5[14:55:20]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14Even in the current renderer, let alone a re-written one
- [14:55:26] 5[14:55:26]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14It would take about 10 lines of code, tops
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- [14:55:50] 5[14:55:50]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14Well cool
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- [14:56:06] 5[14:56:06]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14I was thinking it could be abstracted to a specific method for it, so that you could use anything from the player's position, to the biome, to if that player has some item equipped, etc
- [14:56:09] 5[14:56:09]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Xie, that's something we'd like to discuss - I'd like to hear ideas people have on how we can best go about doing that
- [14:56:13] 5[14:56:13]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14Yes, exactly
- [14:56:17] 5[14:56:17]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14we have a few optons
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- [14:56:22] 5[14:56:22]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14the HUB but that's probably far off
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- [14:56:36] 5[14:56:36]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14So; to clear something up; the intention is that the client *only* sends input (what direction buttons its holding, which action ones, what element in the gui was just clicked on etc); so no more 'oh i moved to X,Y,Z
- [14:56:39] 5[14:56:39]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14speaking of item equips, has anyone asked about how easy / hard it would be to add third party item slots?
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- [14:56:42] 5[14:56:42]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14we can also utilise the Mojang Issue Tracker I am working on to field API suggestions
- [14:56:58] 5[14:56:58]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Grum that sounds much better anyways
- [14:56:59] 5[14:56:59]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14deltas
- [14:57:02] 5[14:57:02]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14we have a few options - what are your thoughts? :)
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- [14:57:09] 5[14:57:09]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Risugami: no deltas
- [14:57:14] 5[14:57:14]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14ShaRose: It'd be trivial even in the current code, would just need a hook to add on item slots in groups and add an associated UI element
- [14:57:15] 5[14:57:15]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14send: 'oh i was holding forward'
- [14:57:15] 5[14:57:15]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14EvilSeph: are they the only options?
- [14:57:20] 5[14:57:20]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Grum I think he means deltas of the state
- [14:57:26] 5[14:57:26]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14So we can call the new client a Thin Client.
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- [14:57:30] 5[14:57:30]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14yes as a state
- [14:57:35] 5[14:57:35]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14yeah that is possible indeed ShaRose / Risugami
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- [14:57:42] 5[14:57:42]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14ok, to get back from "very detailed technical things" to something more general, how would modding the look of something work, not just textures (easy), but for example: "i want to make custom cows with guns mounted to their heads" - mods are on server, rendering happens on client
- [14:57:44] 5[14:57:44]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14but the moving buttons are a single 6 bits
- [14:57:48] 5[14:57:48]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Snowl, those are some of the ideas I have for moving forward
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- [14:57:50] 5[14:57:50]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14Jarvix: Yes
- [14:58:03] 5[14:58:03]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Grum depends on if you do just the 6 or all buttons
- [14:58:08] 5[14:58:08]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Sounds fine, I am just a BIT afraid for lag.
- [14:58:11] 5[14:58:11]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14I've been looking into services we could utilise, but I haven't come across one that would really help us out with this
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- [14:58:12] 5[14:58:12]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14which could be nice for mods
- [14:58:14] 5[14:58:14]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14cows with guns mounted on their heads
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- [14:58:18] 5[14:58:18]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14that sounds awesome
- [14:58:18] 5[14:58:18]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Searge: the server would tell the client that it needs the cow/gun assets and it would find them on the repo
- [14:58:20] 5[14:58:20]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14Searge: "I want to make custom cows with guns mounted to their heads" is really quite trivial, any modified models are sent in binary form to the client on connect
- [14:58:20] 5[14:58:20]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14if you have any suggestions, I'd love to hear them :)
- [14:58:26] 5[14:58:26]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Searge: then simply tell the client when/where to render the entity
- [14:58:27] 5[14:58:27]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14And/or obtained from repo
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- [14:58:43] 5[14:58:43]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14I'll be spearheading our promise to involve the community in the development process
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- [14:58:46] 5[14:58:46]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14imagine a server mod that hooks it so when you press (say) the h key it pops up with a context aware help menu
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- [14:58:48] 5[14:58:48]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Jarvix: Are you going to keep jumping from one concern to another? :) Take some time, think up all of them, and then say it :D
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- [14:58:51] 5[14:58:51]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14another thing; we intend to change the models to *NOT* be code anymore
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- [14:58:57] 5[14:58:57]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14thank god for that
- [14:59:01] 5[14:59:01]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Searge: That would be resolved by a more flexible model system.
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- [14:59:03] 5[14:59:03]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14ok, so basically models are moved from hardcoded to some kind of model format
- [14:59:03] 5[14:59:03]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Amaranth hehe, ok.
- [14:59:04] 5[14:59:04]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14so please let me know if you have any ideas about how to best go about collecting and organising all the information
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- [14:59:26] 5[14:59:26]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14EvilSeph: Would a forum be adequate?
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- [14:59:35] 5[14:59:35]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14so you will have a file that represents the model, texture coords and the texture; the model should also contain the 'animations' that are static
- [14:59:39] 5[14:59:39]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14ΓΒt would be nice to have a hub with wiki/suggestions/forum so developers can help out each other and have some way of affrecting the api without needing to mod it, kind of like bukkit with xenforo and redmine
- [14:59:39] 5[14:59:39]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14like walking, hitting, whatever is needed
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- [14:59:50] 5[14:59:50]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14that's an idea that I'm considering
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- [14:59:58] 5[14:59:58]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14I would probably want it separate from the Minecraft Forum
- [15:00:02] 5[15:00:02]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14to reduce the noise
- [15:00:03] 5[15:00:03]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14you can opt for sending extra animations to the client for a model, or stream the raw data if you want to
- [15:00:05] 5[15:00:05]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Makes sense
- [15:00:06] 5[15:00:06]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14this should give you full control
- [15:00:19] 5[15:00:19]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14I want us all to get as much out of the resources we put out as possible.
- [15:00:21] 5[15:00:21]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14the model addition sounds good.
- [15:00:26] 5[15:00:26]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14also; many of the visual effects created right now can be created by simply making a model (think of a sprite model for some particle effects)
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- [15:01:03] 5[15:01:03]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14Maybe a certain part of minecraft.net (dev.minecraft.net) for these resources?
- [15:01:05] 5[15:01:05]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14and I assume blocks will also be models in the future?
- [15:01:15] 5[15:01:15]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14that would be cool
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- [15:01:29] 5[15:01:29]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14dev.minecraft.net
- [15:01:33] 5[15:01:33]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14that seems smart
- [15:01:34] 5[15:01:34]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Searge: yes; we need to split blocks in their meshes/collission meshes and textues (+UV corods)
- [15:01:34] 4[15:01:34]Β Nick Alert From Channel: #minecraftdev
- [15:01:40] 5[15:01:40]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14model loading is useful... i've been using a model loader in RP for a while now.
- [15:01:48] 5[15:01:48]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14hard-coded models are a pain.
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- [15:01:51] 5[15:01:51]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14yes!
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- [15:01:54] 5[15:01:54]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14i do agree on dev.minecraft.net.
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- [15:01:55] 5[15:01:55]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14That could work, have forums for technical discussions, even chatrooms etc?
- [15:01:56] 5[15:01:56]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14but for some things you need procedural animations
- [15:02:00] 5[15:02:00]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14like where someone is looking at
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- [15:02:09] 5[15:02:09]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14How would water work as a model?
- [15:02:09] 5[15:02:09]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14true.
- [15:02:13] 5[15:02:13]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14Eloraam, yeah, even with tools like techne, it still generates code in the end
- [15:02:16] 5[15:02:16]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14but that can be done in the way i just described =)
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- [15:02:20] 5[15:02:20]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Honestly..the web team is probably going to kill me since all of this means more work for them :P
- [15:02:20] 5[15:02:20]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14Oop, lights dimmed
- [15:02:21] 5[15:02:21]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14EvilSeph: Are you interested in having a third party run it (such as the current wiki and forum) or will Mojang maintain, develop, and moderate it?
- [15:02:23] 5[15:02:23]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14C'mon baby, stay with me
- 12[15:02:31] * Hammie (webchat@d51533AB8.access.telenet.be) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
- [15:02:39] 5[15:02:39]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Would you want to limit those who can register somehow, or just heavily moderate dev.mineraft.net? (As it shall be referred to henceforth :P)
- [15:02:42] 5[15:02:42]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14I want something official. I want Mojang to seriously support the developers in the community.
- [15:02:44] 5[15:02:44]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14ok; is there anyone extremely unsatisfied right now?
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- [15:02:50] 5[15:02:50]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14if so; explain why please :)
- 12[15:03:02] * darkhax (~darkhax@d50-93-17-38.abhsia.telus.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 190 seconds)
- [15:03:03] 5[15:03:03]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14(besides that we didnt touch the API contents yet)
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- [15:03:05] 5[15:03:05]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14But we could always consider having a third party run it, too.
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- [15:03:11] 5[15:03:11]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14Grum: this coffee is cold :(
- [15:03:26] 5[15:03:26]15->>2| 15Grum sends some heat (enough here! :'()2 |
- [15:03:27] 5[15:03:27]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14I'm half afraid to ask half of the questions I came up with because I don't know if they were asked / answered already :(
- [15:03:27] 5[15:03:27]15->>2| 15Afforess demands a refund2 |
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- [15:03:32] 5[15:03:32]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14Grum, not right now, ask me again when I saw some api implementations from you guys :p
- [15:03:33] 5[15:03:33]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Grum I think we talk too much about details.
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- [15:03:36] 5[15:03:36]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14ShaRose: shoot
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- [15:03:49] 5[15:03:49]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Jarvix: we need to cover some things that are new so people can have a canvas to hold their ideas against
- [15:03:52] 5[15:03:52]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14welcome ShaRose :)
- [15:04:01] 5[15:04:01]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14shoving them on pastebin since it'll spam too much :V
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- [15:04:17] 5[15:04:17]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14EvilSeph got on like... 15 minutes ago D:
- [15:04:28] 5[15:04:28]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14EvilSeph: a offical place to hang out for devs would be pretty swet (although resources and developement time is a cinsideration)
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- [15:04:43] 5[15:04:43]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14This channel isn't official enough? :)
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- [15:04:50] 5[15:04:50]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14So while we wait on that; I think we should discuss whihc areas need to be covered with an API
- [15:04:50] 5[15:04:50]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14http://pastebin.com/LSPFXS6F buttloads of questions that may or may not have been answered ahead etc
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- [15:04:58] 5[15:04:58]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Vote for not IRC :P
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- [15:05:09] 5[15:05:09]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14ShaRose: many of those are indepth
- [15:05:13] 5[15:05:13]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14yeah
- [15:05:17] 5[15:05:17]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14I vote for anything but forums :D
- [15:05:18] 5[15:05:18]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14I think mollstam and related can do a very good job on making this community website, possibly with mojang account integration.
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- [15:05:21] 5[15:05:21]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14A mailing list would be ok
- [15:05:23] 5[15:05:23]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14IRC is useful, I think it'd be a nice thing to utilise alongside other resources
- [15:05:30] 5[15:05:30]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14just to clarify, will most of the logic be on the server? as far as issuing animations and what not?
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- [15:05:35] 5[15:05:35]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14sk89q: ideally all
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- [15:05:51] 5[15:05:51]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14we want to make the cient as dumb as we can possibly get it
- [15:05:52] 5[15:05:52]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14EvilSeph: Yeah, IRC has its place
- [15:05:54] 5[15:05:54]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14or will client potions also allow substantial logic
- [15:05:55] 5[15:05:55]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14client*
- [15:05:59] 5[15:05:59]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14in some cases this cannot be done; but ideally have as little code on the client
- 12[15:06:08] * Danny (webchat@ool-18b85854.dyn.optonline.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
- [15:06:08] 5[15:06:08]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14sk89q: logic like?
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- [15:06:16] 5[15:06:16]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14EvilSeph: As for your request for input, we've been running the dev channel and wiki for a few years now. From past experience, we've found that a wiki with a trusted editor group for the documentation and using IRC and/or a forum for discussion on editing the wiki as a staging site for ideas to work well.
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- [15:06:31] 5[15:06:31]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14EvilSeph: Otherwise, despite best efforts, incorrect information often ends up working its way into the wiki.
- [15:06:42] 5[15:06:42]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14EvilSeph: how about copying some models out of stackoverflow into the dev sites, that site is pretty darn good for any questions & additional resources, you could even ask for Minecraft modding section in it? :)
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- [15:06:51] 5[15:06:51]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14TkTech: so maybe we can 'chat' on irc; then work out some details on the wiki and from there do an API suggestion in the way of a pullrequest
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- [15:06:54] 5[15:06:54]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Grum did you guys discuss the 'tweak' style mods yet?
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- [15:07:05] 5[15:07:05]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: Exactly.
- [15:07:05] 5[15:07:05]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14ShaRose: yes and should be doable with an api
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- [15:07:15] 5[15:07:15]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14ShaRose yeah, they were going to do modular stuff with mc
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- [15:07:17] 5[15:07:17]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14will Instrumentation be usable? would be tough to get it working right with plugins however
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- [15:07:25] 5[15:07:25]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14I have a query regarding access control for the plugin repository - do you want to control who/how/when contributions are made, or have any sort of quality control?
- [15:07:27] 5[15:07:27]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14TkTech, just an idea: but I was thinking we could gather input from other sources and have a team keep the official documentation up to date
- [15:07:28] 5[15:07:28]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Risugami: instrumentation in which way?
- [15:07:32] 5[15:07:32]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14Grum: how would the current packet structure be modified for this change? pluguins shouldnt modify or create packets
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- [15:08:03] 5[15:08:03]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Risugami: Would be nice if the server did instrumentation for you so it can tell for example what plugin is hogging your CPU
- [15:08:09] 5[15:08:09]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Xie: quality control is going to next to impossible, we will have to look into that; this goes hand in hand with liabilities that mojang laywers have to decide on :P
- [15:08:11] 5[15:08:11]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14have 3rd party initiatives act as curators, perhaps?
- [15:08:11] 5[15:08:11]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14being able to plug into base classes
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- [15:08:22] 5[15:08:22]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14the issue I bring up is that if the server deals with the logic, for complex series of actions (like extremely complex animations dependent on a lot of factors), having the server issue the commands means a considerably more amount of bandwidth usage
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- [15:08:25] 5[15:08:25]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Grum probably like either detailed statistics on method calls and such (aka profiling) and or runtime bytecode editing
- [15:08:27] 5[15:08:27]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14as opposed to a simple "start x" command
- [15:08:28] 5[15:08:28]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Just an idea I am kicking around.
- [15:08:40] 5[15:08:40]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14like how eclipse can replace method bodies and such
- 12[15:08:43] * Sendow (webchat@178-164-147-147.pool.digikabel.hu) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
- [15:08:46] 5[15:08:46]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14EvilSeph: but i'd really like to see everything related to minecraft modding focused into one site.
- [15:08:48] 5[15:08:48]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Grum: Agreed, I have further queries regarding licensing... perhaps later though ^_^
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- [15:08:56] 5[15:08:56]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14EvilSeph: That would be ideal from both a community interaction and simple mechanics of scale point of view.
- [15:08:57] 5[15:08:57]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14sk89q: not if the animations are known and you can just 'play them' while telling the 'entity' where it should go meanwhile
- 12[15:09:00] * EXTER (webchat@65-23-193-38.prtc.net) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
- [15:09:10] 5[15:09:10]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14animations are one example
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- [15:09:12] 5[15:09:12]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14ShaRose: erm you can use your own profiler
- [15:09:21] 5[15:09:21]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14EvilSeph: Mojang will never have enough man power to keep everything up to date the same way thousands of hobby users can.
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- [15:09:28] 5[15:09:28]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14there are many other possibilities of things that the client may have to process at a future time on its owna ccord
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- [15:09:47] 5[15:09:47]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Snowl: in theory packet250 should suffice but we might need to discuss if it needs changing/expanding later
- [15:09:47] 5[15:09:47]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Risugami: I'm not sure what you mean about plugging in to base classes
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- [15:09:56] 5[15:09:56]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Risugami: The whole point is to not do that at all
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- [15:09:59] 5[15:09:59]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14Grum: sounds good
- [15:10:04] 5[15:10:04]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14I know, I obviously want to utilise the strength of the community as much as we can but I also want something official
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- [15:10:36] 5[15:10:36]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14on animations, I don't mind having the client know all the animations beforehand (perhaps with the server being able to send more as it goes on in a specific format), and just send play animation 'roll' with optional animation defined extra data
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- [15:10:50] 5[15:10:50]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14EvilSeph: You can, of course. This is the point of separating who can edit the actual specification documentation from the discussion.
- [15:10:50] 5[15:10:50]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14all of this is up for discussion and consideration though, so please keep the ideas coming :)
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- [15:11:03] 5[15:11:03]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14OK my big question: has there been any thought about support for custom content being added at runtime from parsed text files rather than hard-coded .jars?
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- [15:11:12] 5[15:11:12]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14EvilSeph: A mojang team is the only one who can make the final commit to the official documentation.
- [15:11:25] 5[15:11:25]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14(i.e. what my mod does :P)
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- [15:11:28] 5[15:11:28]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14For example: I am hoping to provide an official Mojang Issue Tracker that will be run by the community but provided by us
- [15:11:31] 5[15:11:31]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14EvilSeph: The request for changes comes from IRC discussion, forum discussion, wiki page discussion, or temporary pages in other wiki namespaces.
- [15:11:37] 5[15:11:37]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14yeah, I agree with Xie that could be a very powerful idea
- [15:11:40] 5[15:11:40]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Xie there has been talk on downloadable content from the server
- [15:11:41] 5[15:11:41]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14TkTech: this would be javadocs yes
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- [15:12:02] 5[15:12:02]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14xie
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- [15:12:06] 5[15:12:06]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Xie: I suspect that is something your plugin would still do
- [15:12:10] 5[15:12:10]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14have you looked at the modbridge project?
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- [15:12:19] 5[15:12:19]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14another kind of mod that will need client modifications is camera mods - popular by filmmakers (if they so not using mp players as camera)
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- [15:12:22] 5[15:12:22]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14You read your text file format and generate models which are then sent to the client
- [15:12:25] 5[15:12:25]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14you can add/enable/disable mods on the fly
- [15:12:26] 5[15:12:26]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14so yes, I am not against working closely with the community but to what extent remains to be seen
- [15:12:27] 5[15:12:27]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Xie: you cannot do nearly enough with 'just jars' -- data driven modding is extremely limited -- you can however make a plugin that supports it
- [15:12:34] 5[15:12:34]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14erm sorr -- with just 'data'
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- [15:13:08] 5[15:13:08]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Amaranth: At the same time the API must still allow models to be modified dynamically and streamed to the clients.
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- [15:13:14] 5[15:13:14]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Searge: we can actually do it better; as the current client looks like; we might be able to record the stream and replay it as a 'recording'
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- [15:13:19] 5[15:13:19]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14I'm not concerned about my mod being made redundant, at all, for the record... I just think it's a great feature
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- [15:13:26] 5[15:13:26]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14(the current idea for the new client)
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- [15:13:30] 5[15:13:30]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14Are the plugins only server-side?
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- [15:13:37] 5[15:13:37]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14yes
- [15:13:37] 5[15:13:37]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14DV8FromTheWorld there's no magical support for enabling / disabling mods runtime, and afaik mojang wants to be able to do that anyways to disable mods the server doesn't want
- [15:13:39] 5[15:13:39]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14Grum, you definitely saw too much quake code :p
- [15:13:43] 5[15:13:43]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14I am not sure models should be able to be dyn. modified and streamed.
- [15:13:48] 5[15:13:48]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Cojo: Single-player /is/ a server, just run locally.
- [15:13:53] 5[15:13:53]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14What is the use of that?
- [15:13:53] 5[15:13:53]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14How would something like a mini-map work then?
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- [15:13:59] 5[15:13:59]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Cojo: There is no distinction between the two as far as a plugin is concerned.
- [15:14:00] 5[15:14:00]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14if someone on a server wants to have a mini map but not all users
- [15:14:01] 5[15:14:01]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14ShaRose, there is for modbridge..
- [15:14:03] 5[15:14:03]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Grum: While I don't disagree with you, there is still a great deal you can do with data-driven modding ^_^
- [15:14:04] 5[15:14:04]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Cojo: that depends on what is needed; if we end up needing code @ client then we have to see how to do it
- [15:14:04] 5[15:14:04]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14it already exists.
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- [15:14:08] 5[15:14:08]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14we've merged the client and the server in the snapshots
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- [15:14:12] 5[15:14:12]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Xie: yes so please make the plugin :D
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- [15:14:45] 5[15:14:45]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14DV8FromTheWorld you can't magically do it. You can support doing it for some things: Blocks and Items can be logged to which mod created them: But some things can't be magically flicked off
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- [15:15:09] 5[15:15:09]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14So I understand they are server-side but what if not everybody on the server wants to use the plugin, would they be able to disable it client-side?
- [15:15:10] 5[15:15:10]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Grum: I was hoping for it to be included in the API, but of course if it isn't I will
- [15:15:11] 5[15:15:11]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14im not saying "in-game", like in the map
- [15:15:15] 5[15:15:15]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14MCP will very soon have another snapshot update, so every modder can see (and prepare their mods for) the changes mojang already did for 1.3
- [15:15:24] 5[15:15:24]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14im saying the can be enabled and disabled without closing the client.
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- [15:15:30] 5[15:15:30]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14I'd not be surprised to see some mods take days to update this time
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- [15:16:04] 5[15:16:04]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14yes; the changes 1.3 will bring will have a huge impact
- [15:16:08] 5[15:16:08]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14sadly they are really needed
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- [15:16:17] 5[15:16:17]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Agreed
- [15:16:21] 5[15:16:21]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14Searge: we might need bit more than few days then... :)
- [15:16:22] 5[15:16:22]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14And big changes wil happen again
- [15:16:23] 5[15:16:23]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Cojo, yes but the server will probably stop you from getting on
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- [15:16:28] 5[15:16:28]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Luckily though with the introduction of the API they should be able to survive the updates :D
- [15:16:35] 5[15:16:35]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14yes; that is the idea
- [15:16:37] 5[15:16:37]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14:/
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- [15:16:39] 5[15:16:39]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14Grum, it took us almost a week of work to update this time - and we have more and better tools and support than we could dream of
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- [15:16:46] 5[15:16:46]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14So there will need to be the option for client-side APIs then
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- [15:16:49] 5[15:16:49]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14yeah sorry :'(
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- [15:16:58] 5[15:16:58]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Cojo: it is completely possible that we need to add a clientsided API yes
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- [15:17:07] 5[15:17:07]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14it will depend on what is needed to get thing swork
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- [15:17:09] 5[15:17:09]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Searge, Amaranth knows your pain ;)
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- [15:17:10] 5[15:17:10]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14I assume we will have proper version control
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- [15:17:28] 5[15:17:28]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Risugami: github + versioned jarfiles; probably dumped into a maven repo
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- [15:17:29] 5[15:17:29]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14<GenuineSounds> Perhaps a simple list of plugins REQUIRED by the server, they cannot be disabled and others that are optional and downloaded with a prompt.
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- [15:17:38] 5[15:17:38]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14actually, EvilSeph, we did not have so much fun working on mcp in months ! :)
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- [15:17:43] 5[15:17:43]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14with version being saved with world and the like
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- [15:17:55] 5[15:17:55]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Risugami: we'll have to see what is required for it
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- [15:17:57] 5[15:17:57]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14medsouz, yes, but it would be forced in that you have to have it to be on the server, not you can't disable it
- [15:17:59] 5[15:17:59]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14if that is the case; yes :)
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- [15:18:16] 5[15:18:16]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14so a mod could possibly disable features on older versions
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- [15:18:32] 5[15:18:32]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14OK so a question related to run-time data-driven content - will there be any changes to the way mobs are implemented to make it easier to create them at runtime dynamically?
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- [15:18:36] 5[15:18:36]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14or have a world demand a particular minimum mod-version to run
- [15:18:39] 5[15:18:39]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Searge: There is the difference, you do MCP for fun. I do mc-dev so I can do CraftBukkit :P
- [15:18:45] 5[15:18:45]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Xie: yes
- [15:18:51] 5[15:18:51]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14that's the idea
- [15:18:58] 5[15:18:58]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14that's another huge topic - future compatibility in the api ..?
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- [15:19:13] 5[15:19:13]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14well ideally we do not do backwards incompatible changes
- [15:19:13] 5[15:19:13]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14what do you mean by that, Searge?
- [15:19:17] 5[15:19:17]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Grum: OK. That was easy!
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- [15:19:31] 5[15:19:31]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Xie: should be as easy as saying what you want to spawn where
- [15:19:37] 5[15:19:37]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14EvilSeph, what everyone wants - run 1.0 mods in version 8.17 without changes :)
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- [15:19:54] 5[15:19:54]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Searge: this all depends on how many mistakes we collectively make in the API
- [15:19:55] 5[15:19:55]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14We obviously hope to achieve that
- [15:19:56] 5[15:19:56]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Allowing client side mods that the user can select themselves that dont effect gameplay is required for some mods like mine
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- [15:20:02] 5[15:20:02]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14but it's not something we can promise
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- [15:20:14] 5[15:20:14]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14medsouz: What does your mod do?
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- [15:20:28] 5[15:20:28]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14for example, my mod is designed to help you find what server your friends are on so it shouldnt only work when you go on a server that supports it
- [15:20:33] 5[15:20:33]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Amaranth: its a friends list mod
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- [15:20:39] 5[15:20:39]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14oh
- [15:20:42] 5[15:20:42]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14we'll do whatever we can to avoid it (this is why we're working closely with the community to shape the API from the beginning), but we will not hesitate to break things (properly with deprecation and so on) if it is for the better
- [15:20:57] 5[15:20:57]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14I feel like a client-side API is required for some things
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- [15:21:03] 5[15:21:03]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14Amaranth, so what you said 2 minutes ago is: "bukkit dev is no fun" ? :p
- [15:21:05] 5[15:21:05]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14I don't think anyone could expect anything more or less in that regard
- [15:21:07] 5[15:21:07]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14Like medsouz's mod etc
- [15:21:14] 5[15:21:14]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14I agree that a clientside api should be there
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- [15:21:22] 5[15:21:22]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Searge: mc-dev is no fun, CraftBukkit still is :P
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- [15:21:28] 5[15:21:28]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14hehe
- [15:21:29] 5[15:21:29]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14yes; i think this just decided that we need some clientside stuff
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- [15:21:49] 5[15:21:49]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14medsouz: That's an awesome mod, wish vanilla had that functionaliy
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- [15:21:55] 5[15:21:55]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14one thing that could be nice is having 'categories' of plugins such as minimap, ingameinfo, etc that the server can optionally blacklist
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- [15:22:06] 5[15:22:06]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14this also might mean we should split up a plugin into 3 parts; assets, servercode and possible client code
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- [15:22:10] 5[15:22:10]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14blacklist is definitely required
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- [15:22:13] 5[15:22:13]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Xie: thank you, I'm actually rewriting it right now on my other monitor
- [15:22:14] 5[15:22:14]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14for stuff like xray
- [15:22:16] 5[15:22:16]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14yeah
- [15:22:17] 5[15:22:17]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Or you can just use SpoutCraft? :P
- [15:22:22] 5[15:22:22]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14:o
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- [15:22:40] 5[15:22:40]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14actually, that's a fair point
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- [15:22:41] 5[15:22:41]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14we are phasing out spoutcraft for our new engine
- [15:22:42] 5[15:22:42]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14If i would write a minimap plugin, i would not present muself as a minimap plugin, to avoid the blacklist...
- [15:22:48] 5[15:22:48]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14If the client is dumb enough, you don't have to worry about hacks like xray
- [15:22:49] 5[15:22:49]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14which is very similar to this
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- [15:22:53] 5[15:22:53]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14;)
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- [15:23:02] 5[15:23:02]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Jarvix yeah, but if you want to have it in the runtime client it'd have to be on the mod repo
- [15:23:03] 5[15:23:03]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14So then the next question becomes, if everybody can make client plugins, how would it be possible to blacklist them all?
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- [15:23:08] 5[15:23:08]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Xie: You do, you always will. Nothing prevents the client from being modified.
- [15:23:15] 5[15:23:15]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14and if it's on the mod repo it'd need to have the right flags
- [15:23:16] 5[15:23:16]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14if the client is really so stupid, small and simple later (and all game code is on the server9 you could as well open the client code and allow users to rewrite or port it
- [15:23:19] 5[15:23:19]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Cojo: people could just change the name or a few small things to bypass the blacklist
- [15:23:24] 5[15:23:24]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Xie: And the server always sends all chunk data, even for blocks that are not visible.
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- [15:23:32] 5[15:23:32]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14tbh, if you are already not trusting the client
- [15:23:35] 5[15:23:35]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14medsouz, that's what i'm thinking
- [15:23:38] 5[15:23:38]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14ShaRose so the repo will be forced? No custom repos? Or custo repos would then need to be allowed by the server or client cant connect?
- [15:23:39] 5[15:23:39]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14the problem is there is so many ways to do the exact same thing in java
- [15:23:40] 5[15:23:40]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14TkTech: I was suggesting the client isn't given whole chunk data
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- [15:23:44] 5[15:23:44]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14you could theoretically do server-ish stuff on the client and just not trust the results on the server
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- [15:23:51] 5[15:23:51]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14like, spawn an item on the client
- [15:23:51] 5[15:23:51]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14which reminds me
- [15:23:55] 5[15:23:55]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Xie: Believe it or not that's actually more costly.
- [15:23:55] 5[15:23:55]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14and the server has no idea it exists
- [15:24:00] 5[15:24:00]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14that would be a useful effect
- [15:24:04] 5[15:24:04]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Xie: It's far cheaper CPU wise to send the entire chunk.
- [15:24:05] 5[15:24:05]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14a shop plugin or something
- [15:24:06] 5[15:24:06]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Grum were you sticking to your guns on 'only get mods from mojang's repo'?
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- [15:24:15] 5[15:24:15]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Xie: Otherwise ray tracing or another means has to be run to see what's actually visible to the player model.
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- [15:24:24] 5[15:24:24]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14TkTech: I'm happy to sacrifice performance for security, but obviously that's not my decision :P
- [15:24:45] 5[15:24:45]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Xie: use a single core Celeron 900M then talk :)
- [15:24:58] 5[15:24:58]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14We could allow thrid party repos. And a server can enforce a mojang repo or client cant join.?
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- [15:25:13] 5[15:25:13]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14medsouz: Fair enough :P
- [15:25:14] 5[15:25:14]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14Then again, people could stlil make client-side -mods- not plugins, and then the plugin system couldn't relaly block them
- [15:25:15] 5[15:25:15]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14true, but the third party repo could cloak itself :V
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- [15:25:17] 5[15:25:17]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14really*
- [15:25:22] 5[15:25:22]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14ShaRose, that would be ideal, but we all know people will want to branch away from the official repo for whatever reason
- [15:25:24] 5[15:25:24]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14ShaRose: initially that is probably wise; we will end up needing thirdparty stuff though
- [15:25:27] 5[15:25:27]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14would need some form of trust on repo sources
- [15:25:28] 5[15:25:28]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14that's always going to be a problem though
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- [15:25:41] 5[15:25:41]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Cojo: but the goal of this is to remove having to make mods instead of plugins
- [15:25:41] 5[15:25:41]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Risugami:yeah and that isn't possible
- [15:25:46] 5[15:25:46]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14so it will likely be we support third party stuff, it just won't be our initial goal
- [15:25:51] 5[15:25:51]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Grum I actually included a question on that pastebin for flagging mods as 'private'
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- [15:26:04] 5[15:26:04]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14so you'd need to know the mod ID to get anything, possibly with a key
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- [15:26:06] 5[15:26:06]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14ok erm! I am not sure how to handle the following step; how should we discuss what is 'needed' for each API area?
- [15:26:07] 5[15:26:07]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14medsouz, but people who want to use xray will use a mod to avoid the plugin security
- [15:26:16] 5[15:26:16]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14many people do things currently without an api (mostly clientsided)
- [15:26:18] 5[15:26:18]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Risugami: If 3rd party repos are implemented, it would probably be a system more along the lines of chromes permission system (trying to use an example most people will know)
- [15:26:26] 5[15:26:26]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Anyone got any suggestions?
- [15:26:41] 5[15:26:41]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14but jarofdoom did have a point, if you hashed the client to see if it had been modded, then you wouldn't need to worry about client-side hacks
- [15:26:41] 5[15:26:41]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Risugami: Each plugin contains a manifest of permissions it's requesting in order to use those APIs, and the user is presented with this information before accepting it.
- [15:26:44] 5[15:26:44]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14Grum: use evilsephs mojang issue tracker
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- [15:26:49] 5[15:26:49]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14TkTech, that's what I was thinking about too
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- [15:26:58] 5[15:26:58]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Risugami: It's up to the user if they trust the mod and the its use of certain apis.
- [15:26:58] 5[15:26:58]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14give an example of an area you want to ask about, we can discuss that Grum
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- [15:27:04] 5[15:27:04]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Blocks
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- [15:27:09] 5[15:27:09]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14hmmm good idea actually
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- [15:27:18] 5[15:27:18]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14or firefox and how they handle installing from non addons.mozilla sources
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- [15:27:39] 5[15:27:39]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14If our plugins are hosted/controlled by Mojang via their repository, what access/control will be afforded to modders? Not asking you to answer now on the spot, just raising it as a concern.
- [15:27:49] 5[15:27:49]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Xie: define control
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- [15:27:53] 5[15:27:53]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14EvilSeph: I am not familiar with Firefox, how do they do it?
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- [15:27:54] 5[15:27:54]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14you put files there
- [15:28:01] 5[15:28:01]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14what are some of your specific concerns?
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- [15:28:28] 5[15:28:28]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Grum: What rights will we have wrt access, modification, withdrawal of our content.
- [15:28:36] 5[15:28:36]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14well, as you said earlier I think it'd be a good idea to have it so that blockIDs are replaced with a unique key (If we include third party repos maybe have like repo.id.name) so that they are pretty much guaranteed to be unique
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- [15:28:41] 5[15:28:41]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Xie: i assume full
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- [15:28:48] 5[15:28:48]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14How would client plugin development work? At dev time, you don't want to put it in a repo.
- [15:28:49] 5[15:28:49]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14<GenuineSounds> Access modifiers: A flag saying "This mod uses this feature" would allow ANY mod using that feature to be disabled by default, That way you don't have to blacklist specific plugins if you don't want to. <GenuineSounds> Aka, perworld restriction of features, like plugins that add entities.
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- [15:28:58] 5[15:28:58]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Grum: I assumed also, just wanted to get it out there. Cheers.
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- [15:29:07] 5[15:29:07]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14medsouz / GenuineSounds I said that earlier
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- [15:29:14] 5[15:29:14]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Xie: not the final word obviously, but not sure why we'd do it otherwise
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- [15:29:18] 5[15:29:18]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14ShaRose: dont kill the messenger D:
- [15:29:22] 5[15:29:22]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14but you could still mod the jar
- [15:29:26] 5[15:29:26]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14I'm not, just saying
- [15:29:32] 5[15:29:32]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14one of the things many modders would want to know is how they can make money from mods in the future - right now, if their mods do not change base classes, they can sell them without problem
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- [15:29:40] 5[15:29:40]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Grum: Ask your lawyers, I'm sure they could come up with some answers to that :P
- [15:29:40] 5[15:29:40]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14yeah i heard that a lot
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- [15:29:51] 5[15:29:51]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14i heard that many people harras their users with adfly
- [15:29:56] 5[15:29:56]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14How will the EULA for the plugins work?
- [15:29:59] 5[15:29:59]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14I dislike adfly :P
- [15:30:02] 5[15:30:02]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Cojo: One of the first things a mod would do is make sure it always sends the vanilla hash
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- [15:30:12] 5[15:30:12]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14is anyone making any significant money from adfly? :)
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- [15:30:16] 5[15:30:16]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Cojo: aka if you're trusting the client to verify the client something is broken in your head ;)
- [15:30:18] 5[15:30:18]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14yeah
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- [15:30:19] 5[15:30:19]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14Amaranth, right, that's basically what i'm saying
- [15:30:20] 5[15:30:20]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: Yes, thousands.
- [15:30:20] 5[15:30:20]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Grum actually, yeah
- [15:30:22] 5[15:30:22]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Grum: Risugami is
- [15:30:23] 5[15:30:23]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14^
- [15:30:23] 5[15:30:23]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: Some people live off it.
- [15:30:24] 5[15:30:24]15->>2| 7LexManos2 | 14Adflys are good, but should always be optional :P
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- [15:30:45] 5[15:30:45]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14adfly is ok, you can make much more with a simple side and some ads though
- [15:30:47] 5[15:30:47]15->>2| 15Amaranth hates adfly2 |
- [15:30:48] 5[15:30:48]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14This is one of the reasons I brought up architecture and hosting of the "hub".
- [15:30:49] 5[15:30:49]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14obviously a repo will not go hand in hand with adfly
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- [15:30:58] 5[15:30:58]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14yer
- [15:31:02] 5[15:31:02]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14anything automated will not go hand in hand with that
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- [15:31:04] 5[15:31:04]15->>2| 15DV8FromTheWorld also hates adf.ly2 |
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- [15:31:11] 5[15:31:11]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14The scale of this, and the bandwidth and I/O required to host this stuff centrally is insane.
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- [15:31:16] 5[15:31:16]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14yes
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- [15:31:33] 5[15:31:33]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14indeed, but it's a goal that would benefit everyone immensely
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- [15:31:42] 5[15:31:42]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Can modders allow ads on the page for some revenue? Would they be allowed to Γ’β¬ΛsellΓ’β¬β’ the plugins, so users have to pay a small amount to use it (Mojang would have to do this on a case by case basis)? Will donation buttons and / or links be available for them?
- [15:31:42] 5[15:31:42]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14the ease of use factor alone would probably make it worthwhile
- [15:31:48] 5[15:31:48]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14At the moment, the forums alone can barely keep themselves online and there's a period of downtime almost every day.
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- [15:31:55] 5[15:31:55]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14what i think is something that should be minimally possible is if we get a descriptive part of the repo (that you'd browse) -- to have donation links on there orso
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- [15:32:00] 5[15:32:00]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14EvilSeph: Certainly, I fully agree that there should be a central site.
- [15:32:06] 5[15:32:06]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14s/day/hour/
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- [15:32:18] 5[15:32:18]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14perhaps registered plugin writers and specify their own repo sources
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- [15:32:19] 5[15:32:19]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14EvilSeph: But the architecture and planning is an entire meeting in itself :)
- [15:32:23] 5[15:32:23]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14Tk, why is that?
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- [15:32:28] 5[15:32:28]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14*can
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- [15:32:32] 5[15:32:32]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14DV8FromTheWorld: Clarify?
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- [15:32:33] 5[15:32:33]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14(the downtime)
- [15:32:34] 5[15:32:34]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14EvilSeph: central site would be the easiest way for users to go with, i would agree on that one
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- [15:32:39] 5[15:32:39]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14We can still have personal websites for our mods where we can have banner ads, donation links etc...
- [15:32:40] 5[15:32:40]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14been trying to catch up on whats said here the past hour, sounds like youll be rewriting the rendering engine, makes me happy as long as that comes with some sort of in world render hook (i have a modified version of the VBO effect renderer that supports rotated particles for the tornadoes)
- [15:32:41] 5[15:32:41]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14user load?
- [15:32:45] 5[15:32:45]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14DV8FromTheWorld: Ah. Simple scale.
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- [15:32:56] 5[15:32:56]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14ah
- [15:33:01] 5[15:33:01]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Grum: How about custom repos that when you add them a "Mojang is not responsible for the content of this repo" message pops up
- [15:33:01] 5[15:33:01]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14TkTech, I know :)
- [15:33:05] 5[15:33:05]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14I am also curious about what the licences might look like though.
- [15:33:09] 5[15:33:09]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14to avoid legal issues and lessen server load
- [15:33:10] 5[15:33:10]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Corosus: you can do a tornado with a model
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- [15:33:10] 5[15:33:10]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14DV8FromTheWorld: It is one of the most active forums in the world, and the forum software they're using does not scale well to begin with.
- [15:33:15] 5[15:33:15]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Risugami that would be interesting, if modders could register with mojang for a repo, but honestly I dont' see much reason for it
- [15:33:25] 5[15:33:25]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14many modders have access to web servers to host their own repos on
- [15:33:32] 5[15:33:32]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14is there any forum software that would be able to handle it well?
- [15:33:35] 5[15:33:35]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14DV8FromTheWorld: But once you make the decision to go with that software, changing later is a titanic task.
- [15:33:38] 5[15:33:38]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14im mean O.o MCF is crazy big
- [15:33:41] 5[15:33:41]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14maybe we should just add adds? ;)
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- [15:33:44] 5[15:33:44]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14like I have everything on my dropbox and I've paid for its bandwidth
- [15:33:46] 5[15:33:46]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14(no please no!)
- [15:33:55] 5[15:33:55]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14NO!
- [15:34:01] 5[15:34:01]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14I don't want ads either, just to get that across
- [15:34:01] 5[15:34:01]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14maybe it makes sense to have a list of mods with core class changes and specific information about the changes that were necessary to the core classes
- [15:34:09] 5[15:34:09]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: Acccccctuualy, some people have done that and it is viable.
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- [15:34:15] 5[15:34:15]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14i guess id just hack it in so i can have my world render hook
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- [15:34:21] 5[15:34:21]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14You already make money of it. :P
- [15:34:23] 5[15:34:23]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14as a model requires a living entity
- [15:34:26] 5[15:34:26]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: You allow the mod creator to have his own ad included on the mod page on the hub.
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- [15:34:39] 5[15:34:39]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14A tornado...as a model...
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- [15:34:44] 5[15:34:44]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14medsouz, yes, but there's a security risk there
- [15:34:53] 5[15:34:53]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14if mojang WAS to allow ads
- [15:34:54] 5[15:34:54]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14if there is a way to get revenue directly from hosting the repo (not sure how though) maybe it is an option to do a Curse-reward like scheme, where a part of the revenus is returned back to the popular plugins
- [15:35:00] 5[15:35:00]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14I'd say it should be a checkbox for it
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- [15:35:03] 5[15:35:03]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14No more of a risk than there is right now EvilSeph
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- [15:35:09] 5[15:35:09]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14and all ads would have to go through mojang
- [15:35:12] 5[15:35:12]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Just make sure the code is sandboxed in some way
- [15:35:13] 5[15:35:13]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14but frankly, i think that unless we start selling adds ... :p
- [15:35:19] 5[15:35:19]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14a central repository would provide more security
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- [15:35:44] 5[15:35:44]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14if you could provide a way for us to link to our site for mod info from the repo that would be greatr
- [15:35:45] 5[15:35:45]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Grum tbh if mojang started selling ads, I don't think there'd be issues with not enough customers
- [15:35:46] 5[15:35:46]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14:V
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- [15:36:13] 5[15:36:13]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14yeah
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- [15:36:25] 5[15:36:25]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14ShaRose: yeah lol; i rather not see adds (like it is not)
- [15:36:28] 5[15:36:28]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14our website has pages for recipes, videos, a forum, downloads, and a wiki with a faq
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- [15:36:34] 5[15:36:34]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14it'd be hard to have all that on a single mojang repo
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- [15:36:46] 5[15:36:46]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14basically if you see which mods change core classes and why, it's easy to decide if that's worth being added to the api or if it should be left out - and force the mod to keep using classical style modifications
- [15:36:48] 5[15:36:48]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14Garry's Mod has plenty of extremely complicated and game changing mods with a ton of assets
- [15:36:49] 5[15:36:49]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14make plugins sandboxed (allow servers to turn sandboxing off), allow 3rd party repos for client and server plugins. Allow servers to enforce mojang repo or to blacklist repos.
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- [15:36:59] 5[15:36:59]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Wouldn't your mod still have a website? The repo is for dev, and a host for the client to download it
- [15:37:00] 5[15:37:00]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Maybe sell server ads?
- [15:37:02] 5[15:37:02]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14hosting hasn't really been a problem
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- [15:37:07] 5[15:37:07]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14i like that idea Searge
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- [15:37:11] 5[15:37:11]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Like advertisement for Minecraft servers
- [15:37:15] 5[15:37:15]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14and hudnreds/thousands of people join a day
- [15:37:25] 5[15:37:25]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14I wouldn't be against having a plugin site linked on the repo
- [15:37:29] 5[15:37:29]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Searge: yeah so we need to make a collection pot and then group stuff up and devise an API that supplies the needed changes
- [15:37:32] 5[15:37:32]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14that's with third party repos though
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- [15:37:39] 5[15:37:39]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14Xie, but if the downloads were all in one place, people wouldn't know where to look
- [15:37:43] 5[15:37:43]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14oh, and did anyone ask about the plugin subscription ideas I had
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- [15:37:46] 5[15:37:46]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14Corosus, that's basically how I did the research for my mod system, analyzed hundreds of mods with core changes
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- [15:37:48] 5[15:37:48]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14for the external website
- [15:37:53] 5[15:37:53]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum / EvilSeph: So, this discussion is bouncing all around but currently seems to be focusing on the distribution model. Should we push back to actual API discussion?
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- [15:37:57] 5[15:37:57]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14how Steam Workshop handles things seems to work
- [15:37:59] 5[15:37:59]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14the best way probabl
- [15:38:04] 5[15:38:04]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14The end user doesn't have to download the mod, is my understanding. Your client downloads it from the repo?
- [15:38:09] 5[15:38:09]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14TkTech: yes; so now the question is how
- [15:38:11] 5[15:38:11]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14TkTech yes please.
- [15:38:12] 5[15:38:12]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14we have some stuff to discuss
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- [15:38:12] 5[15:38:12]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14yes
- [15:38:16] 5[15:38:16]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14how should we ship our plugins?
- [15:38:25] 5[15:38:25]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14with UPS
- [15:38:27] 5[15:38:27]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14honestly, earning revenue from any endeavor is a business discussion which we aren't qualified to speak on
- [15:38:27] 5[15:38:27]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14lol
- [15:38:36] 5[15:38:36]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14Grum, maybe a repository, modders can check in the changes they made (not their whole mods!)
- [15:38:38] 5[15:38:38]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14because they will contain (as we figured out right now): ServerCode, ClientCode, ClientAssets
- [15:38:40] 5[15:38:40]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14free 5-7 day plugin delivery
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- [15:38:56] 5[15:38:56]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14and possibly server assets
- [15:39:01] 5[15:39:01]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14server has no assets
- [15:39:01] 5[15:39:01]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14I think a jar will be fine
- [15:39:04] 5[15:39:04]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14well not true
- [15:39:05] 5[15:39:05]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14text files and such
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- [15:39:05] 5[15:39:05]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Searge, then every plugin would have to be open source?
- [15:39:09] 5[15:39:09]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14it has boundingboxes :p
- [15:39:20] 5[15:39:20]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Risugami: yeah we can initially start with a single jar
- [15:39:31] 5[15:39:31]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14which may or may not be a good thing, but I thought I'd just point that out.
- [15:39:32] 5[15:39:32]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14EvilSeph great idea
- [15:39:33] 5[15:39:33]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14and break it up into parts @ the hoster (put stuff in special folders to be extracted orso)
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- [15:39:41] 5[15:39:41]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14I wouldn't mind having a jar of client code, assets should be more compressed
- [15:39:41] 5[15:39:41]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14its odd, we have talked more about the distribution of the mods/plugins and the repo and wiki than we actually have the API
- [15:39:42] 5[15:39:42]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14O.o
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- [15:39:50] 5[15:39:50]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14sounds like i should make a list of any weird hacky hook ins i do
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- [15:39:55] 5[15:39:55]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14EvilSeph, no, that's why I said only the core class changes, that'S what we need to know to decide about usefulness for the api
- [15:40:00] 5[15:40:00]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: Might I make a large suggestion on the entire thing?
- [15:40:03] 5[15:40:03]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14ShaRose: we're not having massive assets; textures/sounds will be big
- [15:40:04] 5[15:40:04]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14but an answer to your question: no. Apple can also verify the apps without having sourcecode
- [15:40:06] 5[15:40:06]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Cojo: you so silly
- [15:40:07] 5[15:40:07]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14TkTech: that is why you are here
- [15:40:09] 5[15:40:09]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14oh, and like MattiasM told you Grum the repo should be using pack200 and lzma for the jars
- [15:40:13] 5[15:40:13]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14some people might actually want a META-INF after all
- [15:40:14] 5[15:40:14]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14;)
- [15:40:27] 5[15:40:27]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Risugami: i see no problem
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- [15:40:44] 5[15:40:44]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14signing and whatnot
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- [15:41:00] 5[15:41:00]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Risugami I asked about that as well
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- [15:41:04] 5[15:41:04]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14ShaRose: Actually the choice of compression should be up to whoever made the plugin
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- [15:41:09] 5[15:41:09]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Risugami: you can sign your jar obviously
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- [15:41:18] 5[15:41:18]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Amaranth it should be up to the server that's serving the content :V
- [15:41:21] 5[15:41:21]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14we'd have to take this into consideration if we'd perhaps split out the assets in a way
- [15:41:24] 5[15:41:24]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14lzma is not a silver bullet
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- [15:41:28] 5[15:41:28]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14it's mojang's bandwidth
- [15:41:31] 5[15:41:31]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14I'm lagging terrible and I appear to be getting messages 2 minutes ago, but if this wasn't already suggested, there can be a central repo of cryptographic keys and third party repos with signed jars
- [15:41:33] 5[15:41:33]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14terribly*
- [15:41:34] 5[15:41:34]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14pack200 is only useful for jarfiles
- [15:41:35] 5[15:41:35]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14The person making the mod knows what compresses the best
- [15:41:39] 5[15:41:39]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14yeah
- [15:41:45] 5[15:41:45]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14erm sorry;
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- [15:41:48] 5[15:41:48]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14its only useful for CLASS files
- [15:41:56] 5[15:41:56]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14and you cannot pack200 after signing
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- [15:41:59] 5[15:41:59]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Grum that's why I said to use pack200 for the actually classes, and lzma for everything else
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- [15:42:20] 5[15:42:20]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14I think IRC is just lagging...
- [15:42:21] 5[15:42:21]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14signed jars create an extra layer of trust.
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- [15:42:24] 5[15:42:24]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14lzma is actually the worst thing you could use for streaming content, for example
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- [15:42:38] 5[15:42:38]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14esper might be dying too
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- [15:42:39] 5[15:42:39]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Amaranth since when is a bunch of textures and sounds streaming content
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- [15:42:47] 5[15:42:47]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14esper's probably dying
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- [15:43:01] 5[15:43:01]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14netsplit inbound!
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- [15:43:04] 5[15:43:04]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14man the lifeboats!
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- [15:43:17] 5[15:43:17]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14almost
- [15:43:19] 5[15:43:19]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14lol :P
- [15:43:24] 5[15:43:24]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14poor esper
- [15:43:29] 5[15:43:29]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14lol
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- [15:43:31] 5[15:43:31]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14:D
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- [15:43:33] 5[15:43:33]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14anyways, I don't see why in order to upload a plugin to the repo it goes through a processing stage\
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- [15:43:58] 5[15:43:58]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14What happens if there is a netsplit? Will the meeting be delayed?
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- [15:44:00] 5[15:44:00]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14and in that stage, is splits the mod up into client classes, server classes, client assets, and server assets
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- [15:44:12] 5[15:44:12]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14medsouz no, wait for it to end :V
- [15:44:14] 5[15:44:14]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Obviously this discussion isn't really suited for covering specific topics about API design in detail - we'll use some other tool for that, like the issue tracker
- [15:44:19] 5[15:44:19]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: Bare with me, this is going to be a long message. This is my suggestion for the actual container for plugins. As previously suggested, the container is a ZIP (which is all a JAR is). Contained in the ZIP is three folders, which are: "Client", "Server", "Shared". Within each of the three folders is also a folder called "Assets". The contents of this folder is all the image, sound and general assets required by their res
- [15:44:20] 5[15:44:20]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14target. As for the API, these folders are exposed to the API by a VFS (Virtual file system) interface. Think vfs_open("client/images/background.png"). The root of this VFS is automatically the correct folder.
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- [15:44:24] 5[15:44:24]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14obviously can't have two meetings in the same room
- [15:44:26] 5[15:44:26]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14but we'd like to just throw some topics out there and see what ideas people have
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- [15:44:35] 5[15:44:35]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14to get a feel for things
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- [15:44:49] 5[15:44:49]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14TkTech: yes; but some of the assets are really small; like models/blockmeshes etc
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- [15:44:59] 5[15:44:59]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14TkTech: so perhaps we do not have to have the extra seperation
- [15:45:01] 5[15:45:01]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: The Client folder can contain classes which are streamed to the client, who will execute them based on a permissions manifest and a client-side SecurityManager with a restrictive security polic.
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- [15:45:16] 5[15:45:16]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14how will we handle block meshes btw
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- [15:45:20] 5[15:45:20]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14TkTech I'd say to keep class files separate from everything else, so you can pack200 those and sign seperate from the assets
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- [15:45:25] 5[15:45:25]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14same way as every other mesh
- [15:45:25] 5[15:45:25]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14DV8FromTheWorld don't you feel there is no much use in talking about the plugin container format just yet :/
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- [15:45:31] 5[15:45:31]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14many of them are quite dynamic
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- [15:45:37] 5[15:45:37]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14(or the client downloads the plugin and that contains the code)
- [15:45:43] 5[15:45:43]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14like chests
- [15:45:45] 5[15:45:45]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Risugami: how do you mean?
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- [15:45:48] 5[15:45:48]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14chests are actually models
- [15:45:50] 5[15:45:50]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Jarvix it's one of those things that should be set up early, so
- [15:45:50] 5[15:45:50]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14and furnace
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- [15:45:55] 5[15:45:55]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14yea, thats what i said. We need something to actually make the plugins use
- [15:45:56] 5[15:45:56]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14furnace is not dynamic
- [15:45:57] 5[15:45:57]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14furnace is static
- [15:46:02] 5[15:46:02]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14its actually two blocks
- [15:46:05] 5[15:46:05]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14we can talk about how they are contained and distributed later
- [15:46:14] 5[15:46:14]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14not sure why that isnt the objective right now O.o
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- [15:46:21] 5[15:46:21]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14( FourAM ) EvilSeph: If it hasn't been mentioned already, something like dynmap is a good example of why a server might need assets, so it should be part of the design so it is always done in a somewhat standardized way
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- [15:46:24] 5[15:46:24]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14ShaRose yes, but I feel that this is like talking about curtains (very important according to women) when there is no foundation yet.
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- [15:46:32] 5[15:46:32]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14the textured sides can change
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- [15:46:38] 5[15:46:38]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14If this foundation fails, all effort to choose curtains is wasted.
- [15:46:46] 5[15:46:46]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: Sorry, why would size influence seperation?
- [15:46:49] 5[15:46:49]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Risugami: just use another 'Block' with as only differene the texture-change
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- [15:46:51] 5[15:46:51]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14iirc, static data is going to be batched into the chunk, dynamic stuff (with animations) will be done in a seperate batch
- [15:46:54] 5[15:46:54]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Jarvix yes, but the repo is the foundation
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- [15:47:05] 5[15:47:05]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14TkTech: some stuff doesnt justify to be split up like meshes (they are just some bytes big)
- [15:47:06] 5[15:47:06]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14not really.
- [15:47:14] 5[15:47:14]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14the API is the foundation. Without API no plugins no repo needed
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- [15:47:23] 5[15:47:23]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: Sure, it's for static resources only and completely optional.
- [15:47:23] 5[15:47:23]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14TkTech: we'll split it in a way that makes sense (and we'll figure this out later)
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- [15:47:38] 5[15:47:38]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14i dont think resources should be optional with a plugin
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- [15:47:47] 5[15:47:47]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14no, they shouldn't be
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- [15:47:54] 5[15:47:54]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14yay
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- [15:48:00] 5[15:48:00]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14bam
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- [15:48:01] 5[15:48:01]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14And netsplit.
- [15:48:01] 5[15:48:01]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14BOOM we broke it
- [15:48:02] 5[15:48:02]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14generating models at runtime is messy and ugly
- [15:48:03] 5[15:48:03]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14BOOP
- [15:48:03] 5[15:48:03]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14well done :P
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- [15:48:09] 5[15:48:09]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14We just lost like 150 people
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- [15:48:13] 5[15:48:13]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14sowwy esper :(
- [15:48:15] 5[15:48:15]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Well I don't think we lost anyone important
- [15:48:15] 5[15:48:15]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14nah like 70
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- [15:48:34] 5[15:48:34]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14lol amaranth
- [15:48:34] 5[15:48:34]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14(I meant anyone voiced)
- [15:48:35] 5[15:48:35]15->>2| 7Searge-DP2 | 14btw, is there a timeframe set for this discussion today? i'm trying to figure out if I should order pizza or will have time to cook soon ;)
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- [15:48:39] 5[15:48:39]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14(Might I point out I did recommend free node? :3)
- [15:48:39] 5[15:48:39]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 142 voiced
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- [15:48:51] 5[15:48:51]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Searge-DP: well; we either need to dive into relevant sections asap ot do this later
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- [15:48:56] 5[15:48:56]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14i hope that we might do that?
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- [15:48:58] 5[15:48:58]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14TkTech because freenode never netsplits ever :V
- [15:49:02] 5[15:49:02]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14to get some idea of what people thing would be critical points
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- [15:49:10] 5[15:49:10]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14we need to actually discuss the API
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- [15:49:11] 5[15:49:11]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14*think
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- [15:49:14] 5[15:49:14]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14ShaRose: It is far more reliable than esper, you can't deny that :)
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- [15:49:25] 5[15:49:25]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14instead of the methods for which we will distribute mods
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- [15:49:31] 5[15:49:31]15->>2| 7Searge-DP2 | 14I'd rather stop discussing in 10 minutes and continue next time
- [15:49:32] 5[15:49:32]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14and their packaging
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- [15:49:39] 5[15:49:39]15<<-2| Corosus requests all variables and fields be made public *ducks and covers*2 |
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- [15:49:40] 5[15:49:40]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14yeah, its getting midnight here at Finland and i think we need to focus on the API for now
- [15:49:40] 5[15:49:40]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Searge-DP: its hard enough to call a meeting
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- [15:49:46] 5[15:49:46]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14TkTech been on esper for 2 years, it's netsplit maybe like 20 times or so
- [15:49:46] 5[15:49:46]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14lol
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- [15:49:55] 5[15:49:55]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14been on freenode for a month or two, 2-3 times
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- [15:49:59] 5[15:49:59]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14Corosus, getters and setters for ALL THE THINGS
- [15:49:59] 4[15:49:59]Β Nick Alert From Channel: #minecraftdev
- [15:50:00] 5[15:50:00]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14ok; lets try something
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- [15:50:03] 5[15:50:03]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14jkjkjkjkjk
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- [15:50:05] 5[15:50:05]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Blocks --- lets discuss
- [15:50:06] 5[15:50:06]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14so I kind of can
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- [15:50:17] 5[15:50:17]15->>2| 7Searge-DP2 | 14ok, Grum, but 1 more hour tops :p
- [15:50:18] 5[15:50:18]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14hmm
- [15:50:18] 5[15:50:18]15->>2| 7LexManos2 | 14Blocks first thing, more context aware!
- [15:50:19] 5[15:50:19]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14let's discuss HOLY CRAP JOINS
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- [15:50:26] 5[15:50:26]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Searge-DP why...
- [15:50:28] 5[15:50:28]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14we need to be able to add blocks, with textures (which will be stitched into a bigass atlas automagically)
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- [15:50:31] 5[15:50:31]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14lol
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- [15:50:43] 5[15:50:43]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14lets discuss the API
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- [15:50:46] 5[15:50:46]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14what i actually hope to do is get rid of meta-data
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- [15:50:52] 5[15:50:52]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14(block-meta-data)
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- [15:51:01] 5[15:51:01]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14and use what instead?
- [15:51:01] 5[15:51:01]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14and use the full 16bits for 'block ids'
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- [15:51:09] 5[15:51:09]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Grum I still kind of want a way for blocks to be able to hold 'extra info'
- [15:51:09] 5[15:51:09]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: I think we've all agreed dynamic blocks are essential. All the existing blocks would probably benefit from being implement as dynamic blocks as well.
- [15:51:10] 5[15:51:10]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14ok, Blocks, is there a standard updater/syncher for Tile Entities planned? like how entities have entity trackers, last i tried i had to make custom packets for syncing my tile entities
- [15:51:11] 5[15:51:11]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14*cough* native HD support *couigh*
- [15:51:11] 5[15:51:11]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: Agreed.
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- [15:51:16] 5[15:51:16]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14in a way that isn't crazy slow
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- [15:51:25] 5[15:51:25]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14like tileentities for example
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- [15:51:28] 5[15:51:28]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14i guess that wasnt entirely an API question
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- [15:51:32] 5[15:51:32]15->>2| 7Searge-DP2 | 14Jarvix, because it's better to have several shorter meetings than one long meeting
- [15:51:33] 5[15:51:33]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14I think the idea is that each block is mapped to a single 16bit int.
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- [15:51:34] 5[15:51:34]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14right now the only reason why data is useful; is so the renderer doesnt have to change a block
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- [15:51:35] 5[15:51:35]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14how will the various loops know who to defer further processing to?
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- [15:51:41] 5[15:51:41]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14And that int is mapped into a table that contains metadata.
- [15:51:42] 5[15:51:42]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14but that kinda fails on many levels right now
- [15:51:44] 5[15:51:44]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Re: licences. I understand that you can't really respond to any questions about licensing, but will it be one of the issues that you'll accept community input on, or will it be decided by Mojang (and its legal team)?
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- [15:51:48] 5[15:51:48]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Searge-DP yes, but we did not discuss the API yet.
- [15:51:49] 5[15:51:49]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14because you eventually do have to have possibly many many types of data
- [15:51:51] 5[15:51:51]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14(I just want to check it off my personal agenda :P)
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- [15:51:52] 5[15:51:52]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Xie: mojang legal
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- [15:52:07] 5[15:52:07]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14TkTech: this would also mean that every model-variation should become a different blockid
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- [15:52:08] 5[15:52:08]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Grum: So no community input?
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- [15:52:11] 5[15:52:11]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14This simplifies a lot of things.
- [15:52:11] 5[15:52:11]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14think of for example a fence
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- [15:52:14] 5[15:52:14]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Searge-DP, yea, but we'd just like to get a feel for things :)
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- [15:52:25] 5[15:52:25]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14a fence with a fence on top suddenly gets longer
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- [15:52:31] 5[15:52:31]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14a fence with a fence next ot it suddenly gets 'arms'
- [15:52:40] 5[15:52:40]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14all the options should just be block variations
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- [15:52:49] 5[15:52:49]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14so the renderer doesnt have to go look around in real time to see 'what it should render it as'
- [15:52:51] 5[15:52:51]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14The server finds the next free block ID and allocates it, then sends the client an update to its block table.
- [15:52:52] 5[15:52:52]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14we can't cover that Xie, sorry. We're developers, not lawywers :(
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- [15:52:59] 5[15:52:59]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14TkTech: yes
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- [15:53:11] 5[15:53:11]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14so a block can't be rendered dynamically? at all?
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- [15:53:14] 5[15:53:14]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14so internally you can find a block by its name (and then you store the reference)
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- [15:53:18] 5[15:53:18]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14no possibly drawing a screen on it?
- [15:53:22] 5[15:53:22]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14or something like that
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- [15:53:24] 5[15:53:24]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14what
- [15:53:26] 5[15:53:26]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14sk89q: make it an entity
- [15:53:30] 5[15:53:30]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14(tile entity)
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- [15:53:34] 5[15:53:34]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14the idea is that models are shared
- [15:53:39] 5[15:53:39]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14oh so you're keeping that
- [15:53:39] 5[15:53:39]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14between entities and blocks
- [15:53:41] 5[15:53:41]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14some form of interning
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- [15:53:51] 5[15:53:51]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14EvilSeph: I understand
- [15:53:59] 5[15:53:59]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14so, you could have a static block that is a chest
- [15:53:59] 5[15:53:59]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14sk89q: yes some blocks need animation for example
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- [15:54:01] 5[15:54:01]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14that doesn't open
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- [15:54:08] 5[15:54:08]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: This significantly simplifies many things, from the protocol level to chunk processing and lighting.
- [15:54:09] 5[15:54:09]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14so you can use a 'model' for a block; a model would have aninations you could play
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- [15:54:14] 5[15:54:14]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14TkTech: yeah
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- [15:54:24] 5[15:54:24]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: At the cost of bandwidth and disk space, which is really a non-issue.
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- [15:54:30] 5[15:54:30]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14one thing that hit me directly is that you'd have to make 4 variations to take ina account orientation
- [15:54:40] 5[15:54:40]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14cmon a mesh of a fence is like 40 bytes :P
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- [15:54:46] 5[15:54:46]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14ok maybe 200
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- [15:54:48] 5[15:54:48]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14"TkTech: this would also mean that every model-variation should become a different blockid"... which is a problem when you can have a cartesian product of many subblocks inside a block
- [15:54:55] 5[15:54:55]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14another point. still need to allow the end portal to render correctly
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- [15:55:08] 5[15:55:08]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Eloraam: yes but most of the options are rotation
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- [15:55:18] 5[15:55:18]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14when you start to combine blocks; maybe using a tileentity is better
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- [15:55:25] 5[15:55:25]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14(as you should be able to just attack entities, play animations etc)
- [15:55:26] 5[15:55:26]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Risugami that is not really something for here now...
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- [15:55:36] 5[15:55:36]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Eloraam: I didn't say that did I o_o
- [15:55:37] 5[15:55:37]15->>2| 7LexManos2 | 14She is referring to her covers, and he said that special tile entity renderes would still exist yes?
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- [15:55:48] 5[15:55:48]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14related to block models however
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- [15:55:53] 5[15:55:53]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14covers aren't the only case of it...
- [15:55:53] 5[15:55:53]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Risugami: i'd say the portal ahs a surface that has some shader attached to it to do the warping
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- [15:55:59] 5[15:55:59]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14but it's a good example.
- [15:56:01] 5[15:56:01]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14we have to look into how to actually do it
- [15:56:06] 5[15:56:06]15->>2| 7LexManos2 | 14arnt the only case, but the best example
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- [15:56:13] 5[15:56:13]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14it depends on how much tileentities will be sped up
- [15:56:14] 5[15:56:14]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Eloraam: you can do that with a tile entity
- [15:56:15] 5[15:56:15]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14yes, that i'll agree with.
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- [15:56:24] 5[15:56:24]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14i'm already doing it with a TileEntity
- [15:56:25] 5[15:56:25]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14afaik they are much slower than just a regular block
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- [15:56:27] 5[15:56:27]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14and just create some state to attach a specific model depending on which 'cover' you want
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- [15:56:29] 5[15:56:29]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14just making sure that i can keep doing that :)
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- [15:56:33] 5[15:56:33]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14yeah ofc :)
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- [15:56:53] 5[15:56:53]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14also; native support for larger texture packs
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- [15:57:09] 5[15:57:09]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14ah
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- [15:57:22] 5[15:57:22]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14AND mixed/matched mode; so if you have 64x64 textures and a mode adds a block but only has a 16x16 .. well, just handle it somehow
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- [15:57:23] 5[15:57:23]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14*native support for arbitrary power-of-two texture packs
- [15:57:24] 5[15:57:24]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14:)
- [15:57:25] 5[15:57:25]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14and Grum possibly allow texture packs to support specific mods
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- [15:57:36] 5[15:57:36]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14ShaRose: yes
- [15:57:38] 5[15:57:38]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: Interpolate between the available textures and the required texture size.
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- [15:57:46] 5[15:57:46]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14ShaRose: Shocking, a dynamic thing that can be any size, shape, in motion, etc renders slower than a static block :P
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- [15:57:48] 5[15:57:48]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14Grum: yes that sounds fine, as some mods could use different texture sizes
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- [15:57:58] 5[15:57:58]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14TkTech: i'd like to add a 'force scaling to size ZZxZZ'
- [15:57:59] 5[15:57:59]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: Which is how everything does it (such as app icons on OS X)
- [15:58:00] 5[15:58:00]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Amaranth I know right?
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- [15:58:16] 5[15:58:16]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14for people with low-end gfx so they can run that one plugin that adds a block with 512x512 textures
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- [15:58:26] 5[15:58:26]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14very good idea
- [15:58:28] 5[15:58:28]15->>2| 7Searge-DP2 | 14well, using a modern shader based renderer will also easily allow to bind several textures and let the shader decide which one to use for each element redered, so you have multiple textures and still only need one render call
- [15:58:44] 5[15:58:44]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Searge-DP: for 1.x we need to make an atlas
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- [15:58:52] 5[15:58:52]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14and i want native MipMapping!
- [15:58:56] 5[15:58:56]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14also using a single texture +UV is more efficient
- [15:59:00] 5[15:59:00]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14yeah, but there are a significant number of people that can't run shaders
- [15:59:04] 5[15:59:04]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Jarvix: yes
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- [15:59:11] 5[15:59:11]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14which is worrying
- 12[15:59:14] * thebeatles8371 (webchat@24-177-82-200.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com) Quit
- [15:59:17] 5[15:59:17]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14RoyAwesome: That's BS
- [15:59:17] 5[15:59:17]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14since, you know, they came out in 2004
- [15:59:19] 5[15:59:19]15->>2| 7Searge-DP2 | 14Grum, who is still using 1.x-only GPUs?
- [15:59:21] 5[15:59:21]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14RoyAwesome these people can suck it
- [15:59:21] 5[15:59:21]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Thanks. because wood looks awful from a distance.
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- [15:59:27] 5[15:59:27]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Searge a fair few
- [15:59:32] 5[15:59:32]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Searge-DP: ~20% of what we saw from a 25minnute snooper snapshot
- [15:59:34] 5[15:59:34]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14RoyAwesome: As grum found when he profiled clients for about 30 minutes' worth of logins, only 5-10% of people don't support GL 2.x
- [15:59:39] 5[15:59:39]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14Grum: 10-15%
- [15:59:43] 5[15:59:43]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14GMA 945 is still out there people
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- [15:59:48] 5[15:59:48]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14It does _not_ support OpenGL 2
- [15:59:49] 5[15:59:49]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14oh bit lower
- [15:59:49] 5[15:59:49]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14kk
- [15:59:51] 5[15:59:51]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14if you guys want, I can pull up that snapshot's data
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- [15:59:54] 5[15:59:54]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14that is still a significant number
- 12[15:59:55] * Poiasdope (~Poiasdope@201.41.70.1) Quit
- [15:59:57] 5[15:59:57]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14actually the ancient GL path that MC is using is really hurting the performance for anyone NOT running ancient cards.
- [15:59:58] 5[15:59:58]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14(or mojang can whatever)
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- [16:00:03] 5[16:00:03]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14yeah significant enough so mojang cannot officialy kill 1.x yet
- [16:00:10] 5[16:00:10]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14considering 5million sales, that's 50,000 people
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- [16:00:16] 5[16:00:16]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Eloraam: yes so our first goal is adding 2.x asap
- [16:00:21] 5[16:00:21]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14RoyAwesome: i think a lot of our customers... Which is bit worrying (schools live with computers they currently have...)
- [16:00:23] 5[16:00:23]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14in our client overhau;
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- [16:00:37] 5[16:00:37]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14hmm
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- [16:00:45] 5[16:00:45]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14using 3.3 has been a flat-out 10x speed boost http://i.imgur.com/n1MRD.png
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- [16:01:00] 5[16:01:00]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Eloraam: yeah there are way better ways of doing stuff
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- [16:01:11] 5[16:01:11]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14working on that :D
- [16:01:14] 5[16:01:14]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14hehe :)
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- [16:01:31] 5[16:01:31]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14if mods will have custom renderers, should they be forced to have at least a 1.x codepath and then have higher version paths for preformance, or will we be limited to 1.x (or not working on shit systems)
- [16:01:35] 5[16:01:35]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14converting atlases to texture arrays and then using a shader to sort it out has been great.
- [16:01:40] 5[16:01:40]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Eloraam: What is this a screenshot of?
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- [16:01:49] 5[16:01:49]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 141.x sounds very old.
- [16:01:52] 5[16:01:52]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14ShaRose: 'custom renderer' ?
- [16:01:54] 5[16:01:54]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14http://i.imgur.com/xYup4.png my new game engine hehe.
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- [16:01:57] 5[16:01:57]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Hmm, I thought texture arrays was GL 4
- [16:01:57] 5[16:01:57]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 141.x *is* very old
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- [16:02:02] 5[16:02:02]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14texture arrays are in 3.3
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- [16:02:12] 5[16:02:12]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14While hardware that only does 1.x does exist, it's gradually being phased out
- [16:02:16] 5[16:02:16]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14What about going standard on a 2 or 3, and allowing older renderrs for compatibility
- [16:02:22] 5[16:02:22]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14People are having to come up with contrived examples like "first-gen Macbook Air"
- [16:02:22] 5[16:02:22]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14instead of the other way around.
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- [16:02:34] 5[16:02:34]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14Jarvix: I believe that's what Grum said they're doing
- [16:02:39] 5[16:02:39]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14yes
- [16:02:44] 5[16:02:44]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14OSX is always behind in OGL
- [16:02:46] 5[16:02:46]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14so 2.x and compat stuff for 1.x
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- [16:02:49] 5[16:02:49]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14I was just debugging an issue with a Intel HD card that only supports 1.4
- [16:02:54] 5[16:02:54]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14and 3?
- [16:02:55] 5[16:02:55]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14maybe even 3.x if it has major benefits
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- [16:02:58] 5[16:02:58]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14RoyAwesome: That'd be the 945
- [16:02:59] 5[16:02:59]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14but we might need to do too major changes
- [16:03:00] 5[16:03:00]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14we'd like to and we need to upgrade our GL as it is causing some bugs that aren't caused by us
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- [16:03:05] 5[16:03:05]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14i think 2.x itself is good enough
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- [16:03:18] 5[16:03:18]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14yes but currently lwjgl has issues on osx
- [16:03:30] 5[16:03:30]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14it might be nice to do 2x as standard, and 3x as 'advanced opengl'
- [16:03:32] 5[16:03:32]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14we do have some resources deployed and hope to see that fixed soooooon so we can upgrade to 2.8.4+
- [16:03:38] 5[16:03:38]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14RoyAwesome: iirc it supports pixel shaders on the GPU but vertex shaders have to be emulated so some things call it GL 2 and its just slow and some call it GL 1.4 and its decent for the fixed function pipeline
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- [16:03:38] 5[16:03:38]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14if there are significant preformance boosts
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- [16:04:04] 5[16:04:04]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14anyhow; i think we all agree we need basic stuff like adding items, blocks etc
- [16:04:08] 5[16:04:08]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14yeah
- [16:04:11] 5[16:04:11]15->>2| 7Searge-DP2 | 14ok, another topic that should be included in the discussion is, now that client and server are separated, how much work will be put into optimizing the network communication?
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- [16:04:12] 5[16:04:12]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14if you guys have any questions or topics you want us to go over, please feel free to just mention them :)
- [16:04:13] 5[16:04:13]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14and entities and tileentities
- [16:04:14] 5[16:04:14]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14yes
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- [16:04:15] 5[16:04:15]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14are there any thing that people right now worry about that might be 'hard to do' in an API?
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- [16:04:40] 5[16:04:40]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Searge-DP: with the client overhaul we will look at streamlining it yes
- [16:04:43] 5[16:04:43]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14im having a hard time thinking of things other than 'server side food stats has too many privates for no reason vs client'
- [16:04:45] 5[16:04:45]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14ShaRose: Once you have a "modern" shader based renderer adding extra goodies from newer versions of GL is a lot easier
- [16:04:46] 5[16:04:46]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14from my pov .. BREAK IT ALL HARD
- [16:04:46] 5[16:04:46]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14custom item storage
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- [16:04:54] 5[16:04:54]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14like Map item.
- [16:05:00] 5[16:05:00]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14My concerns have been addressed, thank you.
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- [16:05:00] 5[16:05:00]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14:)
- [16:05:00] 5[16:05:00]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14modifying behavior like how the player runs and jumps and stuff
- [16:05:02] 5[16:05:02]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14at least remove static context of items, blocks, biomes, etc.
- [16:05:03] 5[16:05:03]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14ShaRose: So could be done based on whether or not you even have support for it instead of some toggle
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- [16:05:27] 5[16:05:27]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Amaranth yeah, giving the player an option would be nice for testing though
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- [16:05:37] 5[16:05:37]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14enable and disable the option based on whether it supports it thoguh
- [16:05:37] 5[16:05:37]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Jarvix: to do that we need to have a way to store data on the server; this should not be hard; perhaps in a folder per plugin (so they do not taint eachother)
- [16:05:39] 5[16:05:39]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14though*
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- [16:05:44] 5[16:05:44]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14ShaRose: Maybe a command line option :P
- [16:05:44] 5[16:05:44]15->>2| 7Searge-DP2 | 14Grum, saving bandwidth is much, much more important than saving processing power here, I hope the network overhaul is planned with this in mind
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- [16:05:53] 5[16:05:53]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14I foresee plenty of hashmaps
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- [16:05:56] 5[16:05:56]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Searge-DP: i'll make sure to chat on that with you
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- [16:06:07] 5[16:06:07]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Grum allright. What about how custom rendering: shaders etc, will be used
- [16:06:08] 5[16:06:08]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14i have some ideas; also to make it easier to read the protocol
- [16:06:12] 5[16:06:12]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14yeah, mc uses buttloads of bandwidth
- [16:06:16] 5[16:06:16]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14yes but it HAS to
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- [16:06:20] 5[16:06:20]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14the world-data itself is big
- [16:06:21] 5[16:06:21]15->>2| 7Searge-DP2 | 14Grum, ok, good idea, we'll discuss it later
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- [16:06:37] 5[16:06:37]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14I know it has to for world data
- [16:06:45] 5[16:06:45]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14and yes it does a ton of stupid liek sending 10000 packets for entity updates rather than collecting them for a single tick and making 1 big packet
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- [16:06:47] 5[16:06:47]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14( michaell ) I have a question that I don't think was answered -- player actions. The key they press is bound to an action that then does something on the server, which'd mean plugins should be able to add new actions, binding to default keys, can the main channel discuss that for a second?
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- [16:07:06] 5[16:07:06]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14yeah
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- [16:07:15] 5[16:07:15]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14good one michaell; we've discussed it internally; we might use a source-like system
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- [16:07:18] 5[16:07:18]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14I asked earlier about the state thing sending ALL keys so that plugins could do that
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- [16:07:20] 5[16:07:20]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Grum is it possible to send the actually Seen blocks only? solves Xray and decreases bandwidth usage.
- [16:07:25] 5[16:07:25]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14yeah, source's keypresses is nice
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- [16:07:32] 5[16:07:32]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14where you basically bind keys to an action; and then with the 'input packet' simple send these actions over (compresesd perhaps?)
- [16:07:32] 5[16:07:32]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Jarvix: omg cpu time
- [16:07:35] 5[16:07:35]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14does that mean MC will get a console though?
- [16:07:35] 5[16:07:35]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14another thing I was playing with awhile back was adding gamepad support
- [16:07:36] 5[16:07:36]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Jarvix: That requires a ton of CPU
- [16:07:36] 5[16:07:36]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14that'd be awesome
- [16:07:43] 5[16:07:43]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Jarvix: the client doesn't even do that correctly for drawing on its own
- [16:07:45] 5[16:07:45]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14ShaRose: it has it
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- [16:07:55] 5[16:07:55]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Mmm true.
- [16:07:55] 5[16:07:55]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14not any advanced one though
- [16:07:55] 5[16:07:55]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14if the server handles keypresses to respond to events, you have serious latency issues to deal with
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- [16:07:59] 5[16:07:59]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Jarvix: And it do it at all efficiently involves use of the GPU which you don't have on a server
- [16:08:02] 5[16:08:02]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Jarvix: 'seen blocks' takes raytracing on the server; an excessive amount of cpu
- [16:08:02] 5[16:08:02]15->>2| 7Searge-DP2 | 14Grum, that's only one of the issues currently in the network system, but yeah, the amount of packets and the number of chunks sent are the two core problems to solve for smoother multiplay
- [16:08:04] 5[16:08:04]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14ShaRose yeah, and and the functionality would be expanded
- [16:08:18] 5[16:08:18]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14can't go ~ set r_DrawFog 0
- [16:08:18] 5[16:08:18]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14But the recode could do it correctly.
- [16:08:23] 5[16:08:23]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14good point sk89q, minecraft doesnt do much magic client server prediction, so it would be painfull
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- [16:08:24] 5[16:08:24]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14BUT we might look into only sending ores when a player is 'near them' (and the ore has no 'transparant block' next to it)
- [16:08:26] 5[16:08:26]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14in fact, with little client logic, you can't really do prediction either
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- [16:08:39] 5[16:08:39]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14well it is pretty painful as is when your ping isn't that great
- [16:08:39] 5[16:08:39]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14sk89q: most of the client prediction is on the movement
- [16:08:44] 5[16:08:44]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14I know, but
- [16:08:50] 5[16:08:50]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14moving would probably have to remain on the client and verified on the esrver as much as it can be
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- [16:08:53] 5[16:08:53]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14when modders add their own features, they will need prediction for whatever they may add
- [16:08:54] 5[16:08:54]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14to a point
- [16:08:56] 5[16:08:56]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14ShaRose expanded functionality ;)
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- [16:09:00] 5[16:09:00]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14for that you just need things like friction, gravity, current impulse and calculate from there
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- [16:09:13] 5[16:09:13]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14we need to add a scrollbar to controls screen also
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- [16:09:17] 5[16:09:17]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14yes
- [16:09:20] 5[16:09:20]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14please
- [16:09:21] 5[16:09:21]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14and yes; one of the hardest things to code will be a 'semi-lag-free' client experience where the client is NOT in control of its own position
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- [16:09:26] 5[16:09:26]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14client prediction wouldn't be bad
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- [16:09:31] 5[16:09:31]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14again, like source
- [16:09:35] 5[16:09:35]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Jarvix: Correctly means doing occlusion queries on the GPU which means the client needs to be sent as much data as possible for it to figure out how to filter it which means someone doing xray could just turn the filter off
- [16:09:36] 5[16:09:36]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Risugami: yes we plan to add all the default widgets to a UI lib of sorts
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- [16:09:39] 5[16:09:39]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14Grum, sure is, the source engine took a long time to get it right
- [16:09:41] 5[16:09:41]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14well a feature may not use movement in the world
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- [16:09:48] 5[16:09:48]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Corosus: we're not making an FPS
- [16:09:48] 4[16:09:48]Β Nick Alert From Channel: #minecraftdev
- [16:09:48] 5[16:09:48]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Mm ok, that is a no go.
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- [16:10:02] 5[16:10:02]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14also source has the problems because it has to replay hitboxes back in time to calculate hits
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- [16:10:08] 5[16:10:08]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14(and people want to make headshots)
- [16:10:09] 5[16:10:09]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14true
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- [16:10:17] 5[16:10:17]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14MC has no such problems
- [16:10:18] 5[16:10:18]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14What about moving from chunks of 256blocks to chunks of 16 blocks in height and loading chunks in N radius (spherical) instead of circular.
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- [16:10:24] 5[16:10:24]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14well
- [16:10:27] 5[16:10:27]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14It has been discussed many times before i know.
- [16:10:29] 5[16:10:29]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14I wouldn't be totally against having that kind of thing in MC, combat is terrible :(
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- [16:10:32] 5[16:10:32]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14if someone wants to make a counterstrike mod for minecraft
- [16:10:35] 5[16:10:35]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14they would Grum :P
- [16:10:39] 5[16:10:39]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Jarvix: yes
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- [16:10:41] 5[16:10:41]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14RoyAwesome: yes
- [16:10:43] 5[16:10:43]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14try hitting someone with an arrow on a server with any range, good luck
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- [16:10:45] 5[16:10:45]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Jarvix: 1.2 already does cubic chunks :P
- [16:10:46] 5[16:10:46]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14though with minecrafts current system its easy to do stuff like hitting through walls since no verifyier system exist
- [16:10:48] 5[16:10:48]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14yeah that is hard ShaRose
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- [16:10:59] 5[16:10:59]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Amaranth really? Anvil?
- [16:11:00] 5[16:11:00]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Jarvix: 16x16x16 chunk sections
- [16:11:08] 5[16:11:08]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14but one thing is that the client will have to do some sort of predictive emulation (lerp ftw) with the entities it has nearby
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- [16:11:13] 5[16:11:13]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14oh. nvm.
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- [16:11:19] 5[16:11:19]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14spherical chunks work pretty well, although they do lead to a few special cases.
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- [16:11:29] 5[16:11:29]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Jarvix: Are you sure you've developed anything that involved minecraft internals? :)
- [16:11:29] 5[16:11:29]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14spherical? :P
- [16:11:29] 5[16:11:29]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14you have to use a 2D chunk type also for things like biome mapping
- [16:11:32] 5[16:11:32]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14err
- [16:11:33] 5[16:11:33]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14sorry cubic
- [16:11:39] 5[16:11:39]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14wasn't paying attention
- [16:11:39] 5[16:11:39]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14yeah it has some problems
- [16:11:40] 5[16:11:40]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Grum or reverse, where the server stores movement for entities for a second or two in the past
- [16:11:43] 5[16:11:43]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14like light-map and heightmap
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- [16:11:48] 5[16:11:48]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14i use 32x32x32 chunks in my own engine...
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- [16:11:48] 5[16:11:48]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14yep
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- [16:11:54] 5[16:11:54]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14yes, a N radius, not circular. not loading from bottom to top
- [16:12:02] 5[16:12:02]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14ShaRose: yes perhaps but dont forget a source-engine doesnt have to do that or *ALL* entities; just for the players
- [16:12:08] 5[16:12:08]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14we'd have to do that for *all* entities
- [16:12:08] 5[16:12:08]15->>2| 7Searge-DP2 | 14Eloraam, I guess world generation is a problem, because chunks require neighboring chunks to exist in their populate phase
- [16:12:11] 5[16:12:11]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14I think I've seen Grum wish for 32x32x32 a few times in the past
- [16:12:11] 5[16:12:11]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14and i really do not think it matters that much
- [16:12:15] 5[16:12:15]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Creates exception for air blocks.
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- [16:12:17] 5[16:12:17]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14air cubes*
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- [16:12:49] 5[16:12:49]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Searge-DP: we can simply have 16^3 for storage and communicatio
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- [16:12:59] 5[16:12:59]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14and still have 128/256 high for now for generation
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- [16:13:07] 5[16:13:07]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Grum could flag entities as requiring lerping and such :V
- [16:13:12] 5[16:13:12]15->>2| 7Afforess|Bored_Away2 | 14One Word: Regions
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- [16:13:15] 5[16:13:15]15->>2| 7Afforess|Bored_Away2 | 14ciao
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- [16:13:21] 5[16:13:21]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14( michaell ) Wolvereness: I mean, pass this on to everyone, but this was a fantastic idea. I can't think of any game or games company in my past that has been this open with its community. This is awesome.
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- [16:13:41] 5[16:13:41]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14thanks for the kind words, we'd like to continue doing this and more moving forward :)
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- [16:13:58] 5[16:13:58]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Well said, Sir!
- [16:14:03] 5[16:14:03]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14So anyone with any problem areas they can now think of?
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- [16:14:25] 5[16:14:25]15->>2| 7Searge-DP2 | 14Grum, one other thing I thought about: if a player never manually changes anything in a chunk - do NOT save it, re-generate it next time if necessary - would reduce file size and allow chunks to generate "new ores" for example after updates even if they were explored before
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- [16:14:29] 5[16:14:29]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14(besides permissions ./hide)
- [16:14:30] 5[16:14:30]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14The only issue I have is how you dont want "singleplayer" mods
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- [16:14:38] 5[16:14:38]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Well you didnt intend for them at first
- [16:14:43] 5[16:14:43]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14not sure if your opinion has changed
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- [16:14:50] 5[16:14:50]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14lol
- [16:14:51] 5[16:14:51]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Searge-DP that would make it really slow moving around though
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- [16:15:06] 5[16:15:06]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14world sizes aren't really that big, and loading a chunk is far faster than generating it
- [16:15:12] 5[16:15:12]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Searge-DP: This is similar to the model used in a few Minecraft clones. When a client connects, it's sent the code to /generate/ the world, then it is only sent the deltas from the original generation to the current state.
- [16:15:13] 5[16:15:13]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Searge-DP: might throw the balance of ores of also; what if you have an untouched wall in your cave and now suddenly it turns coal :P
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- [16:15:19] 5[16:15:19]15->>2| 7Searge-DP2 | 14ShaRose, not necessarily, the chunks can be cached in memory for some time
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- [16:15:27] 5[16:15:27]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14There will still be single player mods, they'll jsut be running on your local "server" that you're playing on by yourself... If I'm right?
- [16:15:32] 5[16:15:32]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Searge-DP: So actual generation occurs on the client, and the server does nothing but store deltas.
- [16:15:38] 5[16:15:38]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Xie, yes
- [16:15:38] 5[16:15:38]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14TkTech: parts of the generation are not 100% the same (like shrubbery)
- [16:15:40] 5[16:15:40]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Xie: I mean mods that only run on the client
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- [16:15:45] 5[16:15:45]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14such as my mod
- [16:15:51] 5[16:15:51]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14or minimaps
- [16:15:51] 5[16:15:51]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Searge-DP: I'd rather take the disk space hit over the CPU hit and lots of things that happen without the player's control would end up modifying the chunk anyway
- [16:15:51] 5[16:15:51]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14medsouz: Sorry, I misunderstood
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- [16:15:54] 5[16:15:54]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14medsouz: yeah we need something for that
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- [16:15:55] 5[16:15:55]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: I'm aware, it would require a fully deterministic generator.
- [16:15:56] 5[16:15:56]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Searge-DP travel a few chunks over to a location, mine it etc, install some mods, walk back across "when did this giant ruin get here omg"
- [16:16:01] 5[16:16:01]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Xie: I worded it badly, its fine
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- [16:16:15] 5[16:16:15]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14well, a client API does not make sense when there is almost no code
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- [16:16:39] 5[16:16:39]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Sure it does, for what medsouz intends to do. Mostly UI based stuff, right?
- [16:16:42] 5[16:16:42]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14We weren't considering that, but this discussion has made it clear that we will probably have to provide the means to do whatever work the client has left over when we dumb it down through an API
- [16:16:48] 5[16:16:48]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14TkTech: Doing that would also mean giving up on stopping xray in any form forever too :P
- [16:16:50] 5[16:16:50]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14Jarvix, it definitely does
- [16:16:50] 5[16:16:50]15->>2| 7Searge-DP2 | 14Amaranth, I do not care about disk size either, but assume you add some new mods, now you suddenly have to travel hundreds of chunks before you reach unexplored areas where the new mod is active
- [16:16:50] 5[16:16:50]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Xie: correct
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- [16:16:55] 5[16:16:55]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14mostly rendering and player actions and such
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- [16:17:06] 5[16:17:06]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14for UI yes.
- [16:17:06] 5[16:17:06]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Amaranth: It will always happen, no matter what you do.
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- [16:17:08] 5[16:17:08]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14oh, another thing is mods that sort the player's inventory and that at the press of a button
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- [16:17:15] 5[16:17:15]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14Jarvix, you can't have a minimap for just one user, or what medsouz does, and i'm sure there are other things that would apply to this case as well
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- [16:17:19] 5[16:17:19]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14that kind of thing that people don't think of
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- [16:17:26] 5[16:17:26]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14medsouz what does your mod do again?
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- [16:17:27] 5[16:17:27]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Searge: That is a good point
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- [16:17:30] 5[16:17:30]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14TkTech: Nah, with plugins you can at least make it useless for finding ores
- [16:17:30] 5[16:17:30]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Searge-DP: we could in theory try to mark chunks as being 'untouched'
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- [16:17:36] 5[16:17:36]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Jarvix: it is a friends list mod
- [16:17:39] 5[16:17:39]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14TkTech: They can still find players and such, sure
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- [16:17:43] 5[16:17:43]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14shows you what servers your friends are playing on
- [16:17:45] 5[16:17:45]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14a chunk delta system would reduce bandwidth. hmm.
- [16:17:45] 5[16:17:45]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Ah ok.
- [16:17:52] 5[16:17:52]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14I'm planning on adding more stuff though
- [16:17:54] 5[16:17:54]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Non-gameplay related mods.
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- [16:17:56] 5[16:17:56]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Amaranth: Every game ever has an "X-ray" mod, and the only way to even try to stop it is to A. not send the data (bad), or B. Use separate program to check for modifications.
- [16:17:57] 5[16:17:57]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14yes
- [16:18:03] 5[16:18:03]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Risugami I thought it already did deltas (sort of)
- [16:18:03] 5[16:18:03]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Risugami: at the cost of LOTS and LOTS of cpu (or memory)
- [16:18:06] 5[16:18:06]15->>2| 7Searge-DP2 | 14Grum, you can even store them but untouched flag, maybe combined with a version number, will allow this
- [16:18:09] 5[16:18:09]15->>2| 7LexManos2 | 14Having a mark if a mod has had a chance to generate its ores in the chunk would be a good idea, but having things like new structures grow would be odd :P
- [16:18:17] 5[16:18:17]15->>2| 7Searge-DP2 | 14^best of two worlds :)
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- [16:18:21] 5[16:18:21]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14TkTech and programs that do checks are hacked
- [16:18:22] 5[16:18:22]15->>2| 7LexManos2 | 14Ores are a seperate case from other chunk generation mods do
- [16:18:28] 5[16:18:28]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Also given the seed people can figure out where everything useful is without going near it: strongholds, well placed dungeons, etc
- [16:18:31] 5[16:18:31]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14mmm
- [16:18:32] 5[16:18:32]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Grum: how about you add that feature but make it optional?
- [16:18:34] 5[16:18:34]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14I just want to put this out there, but IMO a mailing list or forum might be better for this overall -- then people can chime in when it's relevant and don't have to be here the entire time, and everyone has time to iron out their comments before posting it
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- [16:18:49] 5[16:18:49]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14have*
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- [16:18:51] 5[16:18:51]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14yeah
- [16:18:52] 5[16:18:52]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14hmm this is true
- [16:18:52] 5[16:18:52]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14So its there for people who are willing to have extra CPU usage
- [16:18:57] 5[16:18:57]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14I'd still like a irc room though
- [16:18:57] 5[16:18:57]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14medsouz: some things are not that easily made optional hehe
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- [16:19:01] 5[16:19:01]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14yea, we know sk89q, we'll do that eventually
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- [16:19:12] 5[16:19:12]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14what about AND meetings (shorter than this one) and a ML?
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- [16:19:17] 5[16:19:17]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Grum: if(on){new code}else{old code}
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- [16:19:22] 5[16:19:22]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14but I like the bouncing back and forth we're getting discussing certain topics right now
- [16:19:25] 5[16:19:25]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14EvilSeph: mailing list! :)
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- [16:19:26] 5[16:19:26]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14perhaps with publicly visible logging to the forum server, so interesting things can be transcribed
- [16:19:27] 5[16:19:27]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14medsouz: like all bad code; yes
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- [16:19:31] 5[16:19:31]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14:P
- [16:19:34] 5[16:19:34]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14If its a forum I'll check it maybe once a week
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- [16:19:35] 5[16:19:35]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Maybe
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- [16:19:45] 5[16:19:45]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14i have the same problem
- [16:19:50] 5[16:19:50]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14i am heavily allergic to forums
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- [16:19:54] 5[16:19:54]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Amaranth: You can hide the seed from the client, I'm pretty sure
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- [16:20:04] 5[16:20:04]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14I generally check my threads and that's it on mcf
- [16:20:08] 5[16:20:08]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14i cannot spend 5 hours reading them; i do not mind reading excepts in pullrequests or wikis
- [16:20:08] 5[16:20:08]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14unless someone links me something
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- [16:20:12] 5[16:20:12]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Xie: Not if you want to send the client the seed so it can generate chunks and you can send it a delta
- [16:20:22] 5[16:20:22]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14Problem areas: You have listed months and months, probably years of work, are you going to be prioritizing the areas that will be implemented openly with community / blocking out stuff that does not really need to be implemented (or sticking them into the all known future section)?
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- [16:20:26] 5[16:20:26]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14excerpts
- [16:20:27] 5[16:20:27]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14actually... you can just send the seed for single chunks
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- [16:20:36] 5[16:20:36]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Amaranth: Aren't chunks being generated by the server?
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- [16:20:38] 5[16:20:38]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Risugami: we rather not send the seed to the client :p
- [16:20:45] 5[16:20:45]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Risugami yeah, but people could use that for xrays and such
- [16:20:45] 5[16:20:45]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14has quite some impact on cheating
- [16:20:46] 5[16:20:46]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14I fully recognise that IRC is useful for some things, but not other things. I will definitely want to provide other resources for us to use that don't require us to all be on at the same time
- [16:20:48] 5[16:20:48]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Amaranth: Wait, I'm with you, nvm.
- [16:20:49] 5[16:20:49]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Kulttuuri: I don't think they've listed anything that would take more than 6 months
- 12[16:20:53] * wawawait (webchat@62.151.174.196) Quit (Client Quit)
- [16:20:53] 5[16:20:53]15->>2| 7LexManos2 | 14The other problem is, mods who don't use the seeds properly :P
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- [16:20:56] 5[16:20:56]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Maybe not to be 100% but to be useful
- [16:21:00] 5[16:21:00]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14would prevent the client discovering strongholds at least
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- [16:21:15] 5[16:21:15]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14ores not so much
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- [16:21:19] 5[16:21:19]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Amaranth: I don't believe deltas is the intended approach... Or am I wrong?
- [16:21:22] 5[16:21:22]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14It'd be nice if there were some specific code quality guidelines that mojang had for modders to follow
- [16:21:30] 5[16:21:30]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14lets just keep deltas as an option
- [16:21:34] 5[16:21:34]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Xie: Deltas is the discussion happening right now :P
- [16:21:37] 5[16:21:37]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14but really, no-one running a big server has problems with bandwidth
- [16:21:39] 5[16:21:39]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14its all in CPU
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- [16:21:43] 5[16:21:43]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14so its a question of what we cater for
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- [16:21:49] 5[16:21:49]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Amaranth: Sorry, after 2 and a half hours my head hurts reading this tiny writing :3
- [16:21:58] 5[16:21:58]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14most of the work will be preparing for an API - we need a strong foundation to work on or everything will suffer
- [16:22:10] 5[16:22:10]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Xie you can raise the text size in your client (probably)
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- [16:22:25] 5[16:22:25]15->>2| 7Searge-DP2 | 14Grum, bandwidth is definitely always more important, no one cares if the server has 10mbit or 100mbit if the client only has 1 mbit
- [16:22:27] 5[16:22:27]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14I was being figurative, but thank you XD
- [16:22:29] 5[16:22:29]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14yes; you cannot run a server if oyu have poopy upload; but there is only so much you can do with that; minecraft itself is unique in that it does requires to send large amount of data across
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- [16:22:33] 5[16:22:33]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14EvilSeph: The API foundation and distribution go together, unfortunately, since one will influence how the other is written.
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- [16:22:50] 5[16:22:50]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Searge-DP there's a limit to it
- [16:22:51] 5[16:22:51]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Searge-DP: yes so maybe we should look into not sending 16^3s that arent visible
- [16:22:54] 5[16:22:54]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14TkTech, yes, of course
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- [16:23:24] 5[16:23:24]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14because really. why send blocks at y0 if you are at sealevel running around on some desert
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- [16:23:31] 5[16:23:31]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14yeah
- [16:23:34] 5[16:23:34]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Aren't these Minecraft engine concerns rather than API concerns?
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- [16:23:39] 5[16:23:39]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14yes
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- [16:23:51] 5[16:23:51]15->>2| 7Searge-DP2 | 14I've tried to play minecraft with 512kbit connection once, definitely not playable
- [16:23:51] 5[16:23:51]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14omg ban u lot for asking for features! =D
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- [16:23:55] 5[16:23:55]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Grum: That'd take at least 4 rays cast from the player to each chunk section
- [16:23:59] 5[16:23:59]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: I mentioned earlier that it would probably be impractical to do properly, since CPU is already a bottleneck, and ray tracing or the alternatives are not cheap
- [16:23:59] 5[16:23:59]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Don't get me wrong, epically cool that you're taking community feedback on that too ^_^
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- [16:24:08] 5[16:24:08]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Amaranth: 3
- [16:24:08] 5[16:24:08]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Amaranth: Garh, don't ninja me :)
- [16:24:15] 5[16:24:15]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Searge tell me about it
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- [16:24:23] 5[16:24:23]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 143?
- [16:24:29] 5[16:24:29]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14i have some ideas on how to do it
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- [16:24:40] 5[16:24:40]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Amaranth: no idea; depends on implementation
- [16:24:45] 5[16:24:45]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14ok. api.... what about setting plugin entry point in the manifest file
- [16:24:45] 5[16:24:45]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14but at most you can see 3 faces; so why 4? ;D
- [16:24:49] 5[16:24:49]15->>2| 7Searge-DP2 | 14ShaRose, i just did :p
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- [16:25:06] 5[16:25:06]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Risugami: Unlikely
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- [16:25:24] 5[16:25:24]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Grum: I was talking about the 3 corners closest to you
- [16:25:26] 5[16:25:26]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Risugami: I would recommend a consistent OO model for the plugin itself, which includes a register hook
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- [16:25:33] 5[16:25:33]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Grum: Although that would fail too...
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- [16:25:49] 5[16:25:49]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14wouls still need to search for an entry point otherwise
- [16:25:54] 5[16:25:54]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14*would
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- [16:25:58] 5[16:25:58]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14It might be interesting to have a mod info text file or something
- [16:26:01] 5[16:26:01]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14TkTech: well you would just annotate your class and the loader would find it and load it?
- [16:26:05] 5[16:26:05]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14with the classname for each interface it uses
- [16:26:06] 5[16:26:06]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14err, 4 corners
- [16:26:10] 5[16:26:10]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14assuming it implements a certain interface?
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- [16:26:15] 5[16:26:15]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: Yup, tons of different ways of doing this.
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- [16:26:15] 5[16:26:15]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14that hs stuff like 'onEnable' etc?
- [16:26:21] 5[16:26:21]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14of course, they'd need to be packaged correctly :S
- [16:26:24] 5[16:26:24]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14oh! one thing
- [16:26:26] 5[16:26:26]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: I'm leaning towards the interface approach instead of Risugami's manifest approach
- [16:26:27] 5[16:26:27]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Localisation!
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- [16:26:43] 5[16:26:43]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14i think that *noone* wants to support 500 languages in their plugin
- [16:26:48] 5[16:26:48]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14Risugami, you could as well reflect the classes and require the entry point class to implement a certain interface
- [16:26:50] 5[16:26:50]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14I DO!
- [16:26:53] 5[16:26:53]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14so i was thinking to make all the localisation like a texturepack
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- [16:27:01] 5[16:27:01]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Grum agreed
- [16:27:01] 5[16:27:01]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Ingame translator
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- [16:27:16] 5[16:27:16]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14plugins could include localization packs for whatever language if they need to
- [16:27:16] 5[16:27:16]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14you can provide your own; and the plugin would have to be supplied with at least an english locale
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- [16:27:23] 5[16:27:23]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14yeagh
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- [16:27:27] 5[16:27:27]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14Grum: that sounds fine
- [16:27:27] 5[16:27:27]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Huge list with standard texts, can be reused. If not available or provided, english is used.
- [16:27:34] 5[16:27:34]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Jarvix: God no!
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- [16:27:38] 5[16:27:38]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Jarvix: no
- [16:27:39] 5[16:27:39]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14NO
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- [16:27:48] 5[16:27:48]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14>.<
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- [16:27:53] 5[16:27:53]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14lol
- [16:27:55] 5[16:27:55]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14because even if the sentence is the same depending on the context you might need another translation
- [16:27:57] 5[16:27:57]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Why not?
- [16:28:04] 5[16:28:04]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Jarvix: You have never done localization before, have you? :)
- [16:28:08] 5[16:28:08]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Why would every plugin need to provide the translation of 'OK'
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- [16:28:10] 5[16:28:10]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Singular and plural, for example.
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- [16:28:13] 5[16:28:13]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Plural forms, context specific translations, etc
- [16:28:18] 5[16:28:18]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14i am not talking about ingame translator, that was a joke.
- [16:28:22] 5[16:28:22]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Jarvix localization wouldn't have to be mod specific
- [16:28:28] 5[16:28:28]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14ingame translator is not even 100% a bad idea
- [16:28:28] 5[16:28:28]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: Can I recommend looking at how Qt does localizations?
- [16:28:35] 5[16:28:35]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14make it a plugin ;)
- [16:28:35] 5[16:28:35]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Localization needs to be _string_ specific
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- [16:28:35] 5[16:28:35]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14if you want it to say OK set the localization string as "ok"
- [16:28:41] 5[16:28:41]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14TkTech: Doesn't Qt use gettext?
- [16:28:41] 5[16:28:41]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14TkTech: yes
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- [16:29:01] 5[16:29:01]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14i doubt there will be many mods supporting like 20 languages later
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- [16:29:18] 5[16:29:18]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14no you will ahve the popular ones in like 20 languages
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- [16:29:30] 5[16:29:30]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14also for minecraft itself
- [16:29:32] 5[16:29:32]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14I think there should be a localization API. just a database of translations available already usable for plugins.
- [16:29:40] 5[16:29:40]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14i think it is beneficial if we stop shipping the localisations
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- [16:29:51] 5[16:29:51]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Is it alright if I post a pastebin link of an idea someone wants so share?
- [16:29:54] 5[16:29:54]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14just do english and have other people make their own favorite language (host them on the repo orso?)
- [16:29:55] 5[16:29:55]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Amaranth: No, it uses its own interface and Qt Linguist
- [16:29:57] 5[16:29:57]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Amaranth: http://doc.qt.nokia.com/4.7-snapshot/qtranslator.html
- [16:30:01] 5[16:30:01]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14translations of OK and Cancel etc, and other popular ones can be in this database.
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- [16:30:10] 5[16:30:10]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14TkTech: TIL, how does it compare to the gettext workflow?
- [16:30:14] 5[16:30:14]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Jarvix: those could be GUI elements
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- [16:30:23] 5[16:30:23]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Yes...
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- [16:30:28] 5[16:30:28]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14guys, guys, real modders would already start working on a mod that connects to google translate :p
- [16:30:28] 5[16:30:28]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Amaranth: Vastly better, including support for introspection to create the strings needing translation.
- [16:30:29] 5[16:30:29]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14What is your point?
- [16:30:38] 5[16:30:38]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Searge not allowed by ToS
- [16:30:39] 5[16:30:39]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Amaranth: And Qt Linguist is a full GUI for doing it
- 12[16:30:45] * fish|phone (~AndChat@50-33-185-36.drr02.mskg.mi.frontiernet.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 204 seconds)
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- [16:30:50] 5[16:30:50]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Jarvix: If you want an OK button use the OK button widget, for example
- [16:30:51] 5[16:30:51]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14In terms of "communication": we'd like to provide nightly builds for people to develop against, 'preview' builds before an update comes out so people can develop against the preview to prepare for the update and similar things to make it easier for developers to maintain their work, though none of this has been decided upon yet
- [16:30:51] 5[16:30:51]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Searge: rofl
- [16:30:54] 5[16:30:54]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14google would blacklist anything automatic
- [16:30:55] 5[16:30:55]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14tada, automatically translated
- [16:30:57] 5[16:30:57]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14medsouz: post link
- [16:30:59] 5[16:30:59]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Searge: yeah if you put your client onto a certain language and it notices missign things
- [16:31:03] 5[16:31:03]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14<hunterboerner_> http://pastebin.com/wHHBFB0Z
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- [16:31:05] 5[16:31:05]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Amaranth what about the chat messages by plugins. etc.
- [16:31:06] 5[16:31:06]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14we should have a client plugin that tries to translate them in google ;)
- 09[16:31:09] * Viper (webchat@c-50-132-20-45.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) has joined #minecraftdev
- [16:31:13] 5[16:31:13]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14i am not talking GUI only. Were just examples
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- [16:31:25] 5[16:31:25]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14EvilSeph: I assume available via S3, with the bucket manifest enabled?
- [16:31:31] 5[16:31:31]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Jarvix: If the message is more than one word long you need a specific translation
- [16:31:38] 5[16:31:38]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14'Create a new' + 'chest'
- [16:31:44] 5[16:31:44]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14EvilSeph: At the moment we have to do some work to find new JARs, would be nice if there was a system that published their presence consistently.
- [16:31:45] 5[16:31:45]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14hunterboerner: massive overkill to go into that right now
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- [16:31:59] 5[16:31:59]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14we might not even allow 3rd party repos because of legalese
- [16:32:00] 5[16:32:00]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14i can see your point it that it might collide for some languages.
- [16:32:07] 5[16:32:07]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Jarvix: Even one word is wrong really because an english word may be used in several different contexts while in another language there are different words for each of those
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- [16:32:15] 5[16:32:15]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14EvilSeph: if its like the system bukkit has, sounds goid
- [16:32:16] 5[16:32:16]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14With regards to translations, we've been kicking around the idea of having them as packages people download so it is clear that we don't manage them (we don't, the community does) and a Minecraft update isn't needed just to change the language files.
- 12[16:32:25] * aidancbrady (webchat@70-91-144-49-jax-fl.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
- [16:32:35] 5[16:32:35]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14TkTech, I am hoping to have it all centered around the dev HUB
- [16:32:38] 5[16:32:38]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14EvilSeph: A translation would be a plugin like any other?
- [16:32:43] 5[16:32:43]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14I'd be fine with language packs
- [16:32:44] 5[16:32:44]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14If you've not actually done localization work before you should not try to invent some way to do it, it is incredibly more complex than you can possibly imagine
- [16:32:49] 5[16:32:49]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Amaranth yes my thought too. But isnt it better than nothing?
- [16:33:00] 5[16:33:00]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14also one thing to keep in mind; right now we have sortof held back with the amount of updates we're doing
- [16:33:11] 5[16:33:11]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14doing a release every week would truly screw up almost everyone in this room with +v
- [16:33:11] 5[16:33:11]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14"Create a new" + "chest" is completely broken
- [16:33:21] 5[16:33:21]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Jarvix: Nothing is better than a shitty solution :)
- [16:33:28] 5[16:33:28]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Language packs sounds good
- [16:33:29] 5[16:33:29]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14TkTech hehe
- [16:33:30] 5[16:33:30]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Jarvix: A bad solution doesn't go away without effort.
- [16:33:37] 5[16:33:37]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Amaranth: "Create a new %1" and "Chest"
- [16:33:39] 5[16:33:39]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14ok, question someone requested me to ask: will there be a central server list of public servers?
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- [16:33:51] 5[16:33:51]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Jarvix: "Create a new chest" may not translate the same as "Create a new mob spawner"
- [16:33:51] 5[16:33:51]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14that would be cool
- [16:33:53] 5[16:33:53]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Searge: completely offtopic but it would be nice
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- [16:33:59] 5[16:33:59]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: Okay, now do "Create <N> new %s"
- [16:33:59] 5[16:33:59]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14you could see them when someone does /publish?
- [16:34:04] 5[16:34:04]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: Now do that for singular and plural case
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- [16:34:06] 5[16:34:06]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Amaranth in latin it wouldnt.
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- [16:34:13] 5[16:34:13]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14Grum, i know, but I just got some bonus points for asking it, now back to topic
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- [16:34:20] 5[16:34:20]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Tech: yes hard :p
- [16:34:20] 5[16:34:20]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14TkTech, I'm not sure about it being a plugin..but some other resource that is plug and play, sure
- [16:34:27] 5[16:34:27]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14I guess you could say they'd be the same...
- [16:34:28] 5[16:34:28]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Nor in italian indeed.
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- [16:34:37] 5[16:34:37]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14TkTech: Don't forget languages where one, two, and many are different words
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- [16:34:43] 5[16:34:43]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14and etc
- [16:34:52] 5[16:34:52]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14we could also not care for that
- [16:34:56] 5[16:34:56]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14or languages where sentence structure is reversed
- [16:34:57] 5[16:34:57]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14and simply support english ;)
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- [16:35:22] 5[16:35:22]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14doing true/proper localisation is haarrrrd
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- [16:35:25] 5[16:35:25]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14one can move around the dynamic parts
- [16:35:25] 5[16:35:25]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Ideally you'd not have anything dynamic in the string you want to translate
- [16:35:34] 5[16:35:34]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14yup
- [16:35:40] 5[16:35:40]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Make a %1 => %1 fhw djw
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- [16:36:00] 5[16:36:00]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Jarvix: you just missed all the problems that gives
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- [16:36:08] 5[16:36:08]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14ok; so how should we proceed from here?
- [16:36:18] 5[16:36:18]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14We can also provide courses in english so they can understand english in plugins (jk)
- [16:36:28] 5[16:36:28]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Grum yes, i already admitted that.
- 12[16:36:28] * ofrire1 (ofrire1@bzq-79-183-167-125.red.bezeqint.net) Quit
- [16:36:38] 5[16:36:38]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14So, summary: Translation, nice to have, should be module and made clear that it's provided by third parties. Likely available via the same mechanism as plugins.
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- [16:36:40] 5[16:36:40]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14we need to collect 'I want to do this, how can I do this.' and then figure out ways to do these things with an API
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- [16:36:43] 5[16:36:43]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Agreed on that summary?
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- [16:36:46] 5[16:36:46]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14What about the event/hook system
- [16:36:47] 5[16:36:47]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14TkTech: yes
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- [16:36:51] 5[16:36:51]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14TkTech, yes
- [16:36:51] 5[16:36:51]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Grum would entities and such be able to access internal world states and such, or would that be abstracted away
- [16:36:53] 5[16:36:53]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Jarvix: actualyl .. good one
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- [16:36:59] 5[16:36:59]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14how will a plugin be noticed of changes
- 12[16:37:03] * DV8FromTheWorld (~DV8FromTh@71-14-118-122.dhcp.gnvl.sc.charter.com) Quit (Quit: Im outta here y'all. Peace.)
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- [16:37:09] 5[16:37:09]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14player movement, invenotry opening, and so on
- [16:37:09] 5[16:37:09]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14'hooks' or 'callbacks' are quite limited
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- [16:37:20] 5[16:37:20]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14I like hooks.
- [16:37:25] 5[16:37:25]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14i like events
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- [16:37:29] 5[16:37:29]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14^
- [16:37:30] 5[16:37:30]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14I thought so
- [16:37:33] 5[16:37:33]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14events are the best shit ever
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- [16:37:42] 5[16:37:42]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Kiloku brought this to my attention, http://translation.steampowered.com/ - I've never heard of it so I'm not sure how it works, but someone here might have experience?
- [16:37:45] 5[16:37:45]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14But events are the only same way to let multiple plugins cooperate on something
- [16:37:53] 5[16:37:53]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Ok, events. They are more flexible.
- [16:37:53] 5[16:37:53]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14s/same/sane/
- [16:37:54] 5[16:37:54]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14new to me as well
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- [16:38:17] 5[16:38:17]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14actually, I think we already provide that through the crowdsourcing of translations?
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- [16:38:27] 5[16:38:27]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14yes and see what gets us that
- [16:38:31] 5[16:38:31]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14i think yes
- [16:38:47] 5[16:38:47]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14we get some nigger-shit in there and we end up having to apologize to the world for something we truly do not care for (not the fact that someone abused it; but the language itself)
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- [16:39:00] 5[16:39:00]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14I believe two cases of racism in the translations?
- [16:39:05] 5[16:39:05]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14yeah
- [16:39:10] 5[16:39:10]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14and a ton more of bad translations
- [16:39:16] 5[16:39:16]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14that just take taime
- [16:39:24] 5[16:39:24]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14There are some racist looking things in the translations right now still :P
- [16:39:25] 5[16:39:25]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14*time; so that is why is suggest to do it like texturepacks
- [16:39:33] 5[16:39:33]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14(taime sounds like how the CEO of apple would pronounce Time)
- [16:39:35] 5[16:39:35]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14mmm
- [16:39:38] 5[16:39:38]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14EvilSeph: It will depend on how you want to support translations.
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- [16:39:39] 5[16:39:39]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14make someone else responsible for thme; the only people who will pick it up will actually care
- [16:39:40] 5[16:39:40]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14(Tim COok)
- [16:39:42] 5[16:39:42]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14so problem solved =)
- [16:39:52] 5[16:39:52]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14EvilSeph: There are popular web services for crowd-sourcing translations in the get text format, for exmaple
- [16:39:53] 5[16:39:53]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14TkTech, the current system is just a headache for us
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- [16:40:08] 5[16:40:08]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14the ideal solution is community contributed language packs
- [16:40:10] 5[16:40:10]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14could make it so that translation isn't QUITE like a plugin though
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- [16:40:18] 5[16:40:18]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14TkTech: launchpad :D
- [16:40:20] 5[16:40:20]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14maybe it should be a special case where it's sort of like git
- [16:40:22] 5[16:40:22]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14EvilSeph: Indeed, fully agreed.
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- [16:40:35] 5[16:40:35]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14people branch it, update translations, then push them back
- [16:40:37] 5[16:40:37]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14ShaRose: just like a texturepack orso
- [16:40:45] 5[16:40:45]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14ShaRose: we rather spend 0 time on them
- [16:40:52] 5[16:40:52]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14I apologize in advance, there's a storm rolling in and I may stop responding mid-conversation.
- [16:40:55] 5[16:40:55]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14you wouldn't have to
- [16:40:55] 5[16:40:55]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14so if we can do it like texturepacks ... win
- [16:41:00] 5[16:41:00]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14some other community person would
- [16:41:01] 5[16:41:01]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14:V
- [16:41:02] 5[16:41:02]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14TkTech: GIVE!!!!!!
- [16:41:04] 5[16:41:04]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14TkTech: Same here
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- [16:41:10] 5[16:41:10]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14its bloody hot here :'( wtb thundrestorm
- [16:41:21] 5[16:41:21]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14No, no..it's still hot here.
- [16:41:22] 5[16:41:22]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14I just had to move in to the garage due to rain
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- [16:41:26] 5[16:41:26]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Just 98% humidity on top of it.
- [16:41:31] 5[16:41:31]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14;)
- [16:41:34] 5[16:41:34]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Oh yeah, still hot and also muggy thanks to the threatening rain
- [16:41:35] 5[16:41:35]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14that's alright, we're mostly getting to the point where more detailed discussion is better suited for another medium :)
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- [16:41:47] 5[16:41:47]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Actually not bad today, only 90F.
- [16:41:53] 5[16:41:53]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Was 105F a few days ago.
- [16:41:58] 5[16:41:58]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14but please, we organised this meeting for the community, so if you have any other questions or concerns you can think of, bring them up now :)
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- [16:42:08] 5[16:42:08]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14ok; so i think we now need to start collecting 'stuffi want to do with the api' so we can together find ways of providing that?
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- [16:42:34] 5[16:42:34]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: Would this be a good use for google moderator, temporarily?
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- [16:42:55] 5[16:42:55]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14not sure; can people discuss on those topics? :/
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- [16:42:59] 5[16:42:59]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: Seems like the easiest way to keep it together and let the community express their interests in priority
- 12[16:43:00] * Son588 (~Son588@CPE001ff343aac7-CM00222d6bc475.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) Quit
- [16:43:02] 5[16:43:02]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: They can, yes
- [16:43:03] 5[16:43:03]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14maybe even a black github with issues would be good :/
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- [16:43:14] 5[16:43:14]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14lol blank
- [16:43:16] 5[16:43:16]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14I'm thinking a forum would be best suited for this, thoughts?
- [16:43:19] 5[16:43:19]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Never used it, but that public google moderator had limits on question length
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- [16:43:30] 5[16:43:30]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14yes, but not the MC forums.
- [16:43:32] 5[16:43:32]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14tbh
- [16:43:32] 5[16:43:32]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14obviously I would need time to get it setup and I need to get it cleared with the business side of things
- [16:43:33] 5[16:43:33]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14500 chars or something
- [16:43:36] 5[16:43:36]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14JIRA would be epic for this
- [16:43:37] 5[16:43:37]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14EvilSeph: Certainly, but the initial hits will probably kill it unless it's something beefy.
- [16:43:39] 5[16:43:39]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14forum with the main post updated with the latest requests perhaps
- [16:43:46] 5[16:43:46]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14EvilSeph: Ah, good, I thought you meant to bring one up right now.
- 12[16:43:47] * monowii (webchat@eab95-4-88-175-176-132.fbx.proxad.net) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
- [16:43:47] 5[16:43:47]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Grum I wouldn't mind it
- [16:43:48] 5[16:43:48]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14just post feature requests and we can answer them and make them solved
- [16:43:54] 5[16:43:54]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14yes, or the issue tracker I'm working on Grum, which will be powered by JIRA :)
- [16:43:54] 5[16:43:54]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14or 'would never do that evar'
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- [16:44:02] 5[16:44:02]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14WHEN DO WE HAS IT!!! TELL US
- [16:44:07] 5[16:44:07]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14^
- [16:44:12] 5[16:44:12]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14i do believe i'm going to have to be going shortly... i didn't schedule more than 3 hours for this. mea culpa.
- [16:44:14] 5[16:44:14]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14EvilSeph: sounds good and ^
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- [16:44:16] 5[16:44:16]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14EvilSeph, I think custom content (blocks, items, entities), biomes & worldgen, console commands, gui, networking, rendering, and some more topics were covered so far
- [16:44:21] 5[16:44:21]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14I was pulled off it and only recently got back to work on it, so no ETA
- [16:44:26] 5[16:44:26]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14This is sounding pretty good
- [16:44:39] 5[16:44:39]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Eloraam: yeah i think we're approaching an end here; you have anything to add? any concerns/ideas? or just agree with it all? ;D
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- [16:44:46] 5[16:44:46]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14So then, until the forum is available, how about http://goo.gl/mod/0Pev ?
- [16:44:46] 5[16:44:46]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14oh, one thing
- [16:44:49] 5[16:44:49]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14ive got at least 1 thing to put in for request, will do pronto once the thread is setup
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- [16:44:57] 5[16:44:57]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Those topics and their discussion can be moved to a forum one available
- [16:44:57] 5[16:44:57]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14but it's my top priority alongside Minecraft 1.3.
- 12[16:44:58] * tips48|afk (~tips48@2001:0:5ef5:79fb:34ac:f93e:ba7a:ef7a) Quit (Ping timeout: 202 seconds)
- [16:45:16] 5[16:45:16]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Grum if you guys are rewriting the renderer, and are adding a 'real' console, please please please extract settings as variables :(
- [16:45:18] 5[16:45:18]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14mine is currently the renderer
- [16:45:25] 5[16:45:25]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14I'm sure we'll have plenty to discuss once the disucssion medium has been established :)
- 12[16:45:26] * aufdemrand (~aufdemran@cpe-174-102-4-21.woh.res.rr.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 380 seconds)
- [16:45:29] 5[16:45:29]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14'settings' is vague -- lets discuss later?
- [16:45:44] 5[16:45:44]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14I meant like how strong the fog is and other such things
- [16:45:44] 5[16:45:44]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14+ShaRose
- [16:45:45] 5[16:45:45]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14I think he means..make everything configurable through cvars
- [16:45:48] 5[16:45:48]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14like Source games do
- [16:45:48] 5[16:45:48]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14aka how source handles it all
- [16:45:53] 5[16:45:53]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14exactly
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- [16:45:59] 5[16:45:59]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14obviously with cheat flags :V
- [16:46:01] 5[16:46:01]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Ah
- [16:46:01] 5[16:46:01]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14well .. the server controls most of that
- [16:46:03] 5[16:46:03]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14EvilSeph: Grum: This irc is still going to be used, yes? Are thrre going to be more meetings? Or are you planning to load it to the issue trackers/forums/mailing list/whatever
- [16:46:11] 5[16:46:11]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Snowl: yes i will be idling here forever
- [16:46:20] 5[16:46:20]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14so feel free to ask questions and whatever basically :)
- [16:46:24] 5[16:46:24]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14yes Snowl, like I said at the beginning, I want to begin building an official Minecraft development community
- [16:46:32] 5[16:46:32]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14this channel will be a part of that.
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- [16:46:37] 5[16:46:37]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14sweet :)
- [16:46:38] 5[16:46:38]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Sounds good.
- [16:46:38] 5[16:46:38]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Grum: awesome
- [16:46:39] 5[16:46:39]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Grum server shouldn't control some stuff though
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- [16:46:45] 5[16:46:45]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14i don't have much to add, i don't think... concerned about the degree of change this is going to require, but the direction seems good enough.
- [16:46:47] 5[16:46:47]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14oh, and draw distance should be a cvar
- [16:46:47] 5[16:46:47]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14ShaRose: nope
- [16:46:48] 5[16:46:48]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14how about something like that system where users could post feature requests and others could give them points? That added into the development community?
- 12[16:46:53] * Cromulent (webchat@95-178-176-13.dsl.optinet.hr) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
- [16:46:59] 5[16:46:59]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Eloraam: masive change but in this case the change should be for the best
- [16:47:05] 5[16:47:05]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14there will likely be more meetings, though that depends on how useful people found this one
- [16:47:07] 5[16:47:07]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14much of the things that are currently added by people like you might be not needed anymore
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- [16:47:13] 5[16:47:13]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Can't fix something without breaking what is already there :)
- [16:47:15] 5[16:47:15]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14you would need minecraft account to give points so that you could not abuse it
- [16:47:20] 5[16:47:20]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14and opinions on the usefulness of this format for things like this, or if we should use some other medium
- [16:47:21] 5[16:47:21]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14and hopefully we can think of ways to make 90+% happy with the api
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- [16:47:26] 5[16:47:26]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14in all honesty
- [16:47:28] 5[16:47:28]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Some stuff certainly came out of this one, but it was also exceptionally noisy.
- [16:47:29] 5[16:47:29]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14i am sure we have the brainpower in this channel
- [16:47:36] 5[16:47:36]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14if ID Resolver and GuiAPI are totally deprecated by the api
- [16:47:38] 5[16:47:38]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14The best part of these will probably be the summaries people generate after.
- [16:47:39] 5[16:47:39]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14I'd be glad
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- [16:47:51] 5[16:47:51]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Well I'd like to thank EvilSeph and Grum for letting me be a part of this discussion, and to everybody who took part :)
- [16:47:51] 5[16:47:51]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14TkTech: yeah
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- [16:48:09] 5[16:48:09]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14TkTech I can't wait to start reading logs
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- [16:48:23] 5[16:48:23]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14oh yeah
- [16:48:25] 5[16:48:25]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14I bet you the Curse guys will have a forum post shortly.
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- [16:48:30] 5[16:48:30]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14did anyone talk about modpacks
- [16:48:30] 5[16:48:30]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14I'm *really* happy that we have had so many big names (eventhough some were last moment ;D) -- i think its really important that we involve the most people (be it indirectly through the users that user your creations) in this process
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- [16:48:45] 5[16:48:45]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14I can't wait to post comments on the reddit thread explaining why everyone in the thread is wrong :D
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- [16:48:50] 5[16:48:50]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14yes, I'd like to apologise for hte absence of some of our team, but Mojang dosen't actually work on the weekends and Dinnerbone just recently moved to Stockholm, so he's still busy getting settled down :)
- [16:48:57] 5[16:48:57]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Amaranth: Oh, I shall join you in this fun venture.
- [16:49:02] 5[16:49:02]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14EvilSeph: something like this in development community? wunderkit.uservoice.com
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- [16:49:23] 5[16:49:23]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14I can easily say I'm excited about the how the API is taking shape ^_^
- [16:49:23] 5[16:49:23]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14I have to go to work, thanks for having me in the meeting and have a nice day everyone
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- [16:49:29] 5[16:49:29]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Kulttuuri: That medium and its ilk are really good for general topic discussion
- [16:49:31] 5[16:49:31]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Btw i'm always up for some technical discussion, so if you want to bounce of some concerns or ideas feel free to prod me gently
- [16:49:32] 5[16:49:32]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Kulttuuri, I think a JIRA is much better suited
- [16:49:33] 5[16:49:33]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Kulttuuri: It's not good for dev discussion
- [16:49:34] 5[16:49:34]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Oh, one somewhat core design decision: Is changing the height of the world going to be possible?
- [16:49:38] 5[16:49:38]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14I gtg too, so cheers everyone
- [16:49:40] 5[16:49:40]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14cheers everyone... thanks EvilSeph and the rest of you Mojang people for hosting this discussion.
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- [16:49:42] 5[16:49:42]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Kulttuuri: Where like EvilSeph just said, JIRA is much better.
- [16:49:45] 5[16:49:45]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14yea
- [16:49:46] 5[16:49:46]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14later medsouz, Xie
- [16:49:49] 5[16:49:49]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14thanks for joining us!
- [16:49:51] 5[16:49:51]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Jira allows us to do workflows
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- [16:49:56] 5[16:49:56]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Thanks for having us :)
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- [16:49:57] 5[16:49:57]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14bye
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- [16:49:59] 5[16:49:59]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14<3
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- [16:50:01] 5[16:50:01]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14so we can mark stuf double, accepted, 'done', milestones etc
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- [16:50:14] 5[16:50:14]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14heh just thought of something
- [16:50:14] 5[16:50:14]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14EvilSeph if jira is set up, would it be public or private
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- [16:50:14] 5[16:50:14]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14cant wait :D
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- [16:50:19] 5[16:50:19]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14timer class
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- [16:50:26] 5[16:50:26]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14JIRA itself would be public
- [16:50:29] 5[16:50:29]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14delayed calls
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- [16:50:39] 5[16:50:39]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Risugami: You mean like the bukkit scheduler? :)
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- [16:50:40] 5[16:50:40]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14repeating events and such
- [16:50:46] 5[16:50:46]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14probably
- [16:50:52] 5[16:50:52]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14but JIRA has the ability to have projects with specific access
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- [16:50:53] 5[16:50:53]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Amaranth niether me or Risugami know anything about bukkit :V
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- [16:51:05] 5[16:51:05]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14will there be a next meeting next week same time?
- [16:51:09] 5[16:51:09]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14You can schedule tasks to run at certain intervals after certain delays
- [16:51:14] 5[16:51:14]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14EvilSeph why not make it so accounts need approval before they are created?
- 12[16:51:15] * Mokradin (~mokradin@213.166.206.82) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
- [16:51:21] 5[16:51:21]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14And even make an async task that gets run on a different thread (although you are limited there)
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- [16:51:23] 5[16:51:23]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14just something vanilla is missing
- [16:51:24] 5[16:51:24]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14and I'm working closely with Atlassian on the JIRA who have kindly provided us with it :)
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- [16:51:35] 5[16:51:35]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14neat
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- [16:51:44] 5[16:51:44]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14so anyone wants to discuss something now? ;D
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- [16:51:51] 5[16:51:51]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Searge you have some protocol stuff
- [16:51:55] 5[16:51:55]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Grum: World height :)
- [16:52:06] 5[16:52:06]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Amaranth: eventually we'll allow a chunk to have x/y/z
- [16:52:07] 5[16:52:07]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Amaranth wasn't that already moved into a variable?
- [16:52:10] 5[16:52:10]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14so yeah .... 'whatever size'
- [16:52:19] 5[16:52:19]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14cubic chunks, etc
- [16:52:26] 5[16:52:26]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14but it has the technical problems with heightmaps/light spreads etc
- [16:52:28] 5[16:52:28]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14ShaRose: chunks hardcode at 16 sections and the protocol also hardcodes 16 sections
- [16:52:29] 5[16:52:29]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14worldgen will need to be updated (again)
- [16:52:31] 5[16:52:31]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14the issue tracker is meant to be for Minecraft, but we could make use of it for the API and have a 'dev' program and group gain access to use it
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- [16:52:38] 5[16:52:38]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Then cuboic chunks can also be loaded in a spherical radius :D
- [16:52:39] 5[16:52:39]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14Grum, network protocol?
- [16:52:44] 5[16:52:44]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Searge: yeah optimizing it?
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- [16:52:58] 5[16:52:58]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14EvilSeph / Grum: I would love to go in-depth with the Hub idea whenever you have some time or interest in it. So in six years or so :)
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- [16:53:12] 5[16:53:12]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Oh, and the protocol interests me greatly
- [16:53:15] 5[16:53:15]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14I think so far i have some basic ideas what I'd optimize first if I were doing it
- [16:53:15] 5[16:53:15]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14hub idea? (o god i missed something .. sorry)
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- [16:53:30] 5[16:53:30]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14oh
- [16:53:31] 5[16:53:31]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14devhub!
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- [16:53:35] 5[16:53:35]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: I believe EvilSeph called it a hub earlier
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- [16:53:49] 5[16:53:49]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14(ty innervoice with the sound of Evilseph)
- [16:53:50] 5[16:53:50]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Searge: I didn't know you had an interest in the protocol, you should join us some time :)
- [16:53:50] 5[16:53:50]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14all the dev resources in one place
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- [16:54:30] 5[16:54:30]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14protocol optimization is fun!
- [16:54:32] 5[16:54:32]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14someone once told me that disabling setTrafficClass(24) on the sockets would help latency a bit, but I never tested
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- [16:54:37] 5[16:54:37]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14so what is the thing that sohuld be optimized most?
- [16:54:43] 5[16:54:43]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14surely the entity movement is atrocious
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- [16:54:53] 5[16:54:53]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14ShaRose: You mean disabling nagle's algorithm?
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- [16:54:55] 5[16:54:55]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14we should bundle stuff (after buffering them)
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- [16:54:59] 5[16:54:59]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14TkTech, I was working on network game middleware as a professional game developer for many years, so ofc that's something I'm very interested in :)
- [16:55:07] 5[16:55:07]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Amaranth enabling it by disabling that, yes
- 12[16:55:10] * simiskovich (webchat@86.85.67.95) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
- [16:55:20] 5[16:55:20]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Wait, /enabling/ nagles?
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- [16:55:30] 5[16:55:30]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14That generally increases delays, especially with so many small movement packetes
- [16:55:30] 5[16:55:30]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14those flags in memory serves is High Bandwidth and Low Latency
- [16:55:36] 5[16:55:36]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14enabling nagles is baaddddd
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- [16:55:39] 5[16:55:39]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14^^^^^^^
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