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Corosus
Jun 30th, 2012
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  1. [14:04:29] 5[14:04:29]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14so, to start, I am EvilSeph, one of the Minecraft developers at Mojang
  2. 09[14:04:36] * Lazy_Mojang_Noch ([email protected]) has left #minecraftdev
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  7. [14:04:48] 5[14:04:48]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14I'm Grum, one of the Minecraft developers @ Mojang \o/
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  12. [14:05:12] 5[14:05:12]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14We also have Tahg from Mojang joining us to discuss the beginnings of the Minecraft API :)
  13. 09[14:05:12] * pianoman112233 ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  14. [14:05:12] 5[14:05:12]15->>2| 11Tahg2 | 14Tahg, another dev at Mojang
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  21. [14:05:27] 5[14:05:27]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14let's go down the list and introduce ourselves please, starting with Afforess.
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  28. [14:05:49] 5[14:05:49]15->>2| 7Afforess2 | 14I'm Afforess, from Spout
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  32. [14:06:09] 5[14:06:09]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14<-- from Bukkit
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  37. [14:06:18] 5[14:06:18]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14I will go ahead and mention that Corosus is asleep and will join us when he wakes up
  38. [14:06:18] 4[14:06:18] Nick Alert From Channel: #minecraftdev
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  44. [14:06:41] 5[14:06:41]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14I'm Cojo, made the tropicraft SSP mod. I help out in #risucraft and the mcp team
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  49. [14:06:51] 5[14:06:51]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14Im DV8FromTheWorld, From MC Port Central. We merge Bukkit with Forge.
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  55. [14:07:14] 5[14:07:14]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14keep the introductions coming :)
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  57. [14:07:17] 5[14:07:17]15->>2| 7FlowerChild2 | 14FlowerChild, developer of Better Than Wolves, and the man you love to hate
  58. [14:07:23] 5[14:07:23]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14I am a developer of Canary.
  59. 09[14:07:25] * DoctorWorm ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  60. [14:07:29] 5[14:07:29]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14Kulttuuri, Creator of MinecraftEdu plugin & Lead developer at the project.
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  62. [14:07:34] 5[14:07:34]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14Hey, we skipped Eloraam :(
  63. [14:07:35] 5[14:07:35]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14order doesn't matter, we just want everyone to know who people are for the log :)
  64. [14:07:39] 5[14:07:39]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14Ah ok
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  68. [14:07:45] 5[14:07:45]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14i'm Eloraam, author of RedPower, one of the Forge founders, and general troublemaker and malcontent. ;)
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  72. [14:07:48] 5[14:07:48]15->>2| 7LexManos2 | 14LexManos, From Forge
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  74. [14:07:51] 5[14:07:51]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14I am medsouz, I made a social networking mod for Minecraft called SocialMiner, I am also an active member of #risucraft which is the main client modding channel here at Esper.
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  78. [14:08:01] 5[14:08:01]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Hi, I'm Xie. I made Xie's Mod ^_^
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  80. [14:08:07] 5[14:08:07]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14i Xie!
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  84. [14:08:13] 5[14:08:13]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14I'm RoyAwesome, Client programmer for spout
  85. [14:08:13] 5[14:08:13]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14I'm UltraMoogleMan, I make various technically-involved mods like Kataminey Damacraft and CCTV, I'm a senior rendering engineer at Autodesk Scaleform, and I am the man *who* loves to hate
  86. [14:08:14] 5[14:08:14]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14:D
  87. [14:08:16] 5[14:08:16]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14I'm Searge - I created the MCP project, the tool 99% of the singleplayer mods and a lot of the existing API's depends on
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  103. [14:08:58] 5[14:08:58]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14I'm snowl, minecraft beta and classic server dev
  104. [14:09:06] 5[14:09:06]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14I'm sk89q, I write/wrote WorldEdit, WorldGuard, CraftBook and designed the config/permissions/few other things in Bukkit back in the day
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  109. [14:09:15] 5[14:09:15]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14I was aked to say 98% of sp mods, probably because some people can still live without MCP :p
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  121. [14:09:41] 5[14:09:41]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Searge: Some people are so hard core :)
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  123. [14:09:47] 5[14:09:47]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14:DD
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  125. [14:09:47] 5[14:09:47]15->>2| 7Afforess2 | 14^.^
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  127. [14:09:50] 5[14:09:50]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14:D
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  130. [14:09:53] 5[14:09:53]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14:o
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  134. [14:10:05] 5[14:10:05]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14as this is the first meeting and the beginnings of the API, we have a rough agenda for this meeting today
  135. [14:10:17] 5[14:10:17]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14but we anticipate that many of you will have a lot of things you'd like us to go over too
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  143. [14:10:38] 5[14:10:38]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14The agenda for today is as follows:
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  145. [14:10:42] 5[14:10:42]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Our plans for involving the community in the API development process for the future.
  146. [14:10:43] 5[14:10:43]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Our considerations on how we might handle contributions.
  147. [14:10:43] 5[14:10:43]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Our plans for keeping the community in the loop.
  148. [14:10:43] 5[14:10:43]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14The direction we're taking to prepare for the API.
  149. [14:10:43] 5[14:10:43]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14General Q&A.
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  179. [14:11:54] 5[14:11:54]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14(Type faster Evil! ;D)
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  186. [14:12:16] 5[14:12:16]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14So, to begin, we'd like to go over the rough ideas we have for how we'd like to go about further involving the community in the API development process
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  205. [14:13:04] 5[14:13:04]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14I wanted to start off the iniative by getting all the great minds in the Minecraft modding and plugin development community into the same room
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  209. 09[14:13:20] * EvilSeph sets mode: +v Risugami
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  215. [14:13:49] 5[14:13:49]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14but it's clear that this kind of system is more chaotic than we'd like
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  221. [14:14:06] 5[14:14:06]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14so, we're hoping to have a better system in place for future events:
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  236. [14:14:53] 5[14:14:53]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14GitHub for pull requests and API development/discussion
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  241. [14:15:10] 5[14:15:10]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14wiki for documentation/tutorials, javadocs for the API
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  244. [14:15:17] 5[14:15:17]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14javadocs :D
  245. [14:15:19] 5[14:15:19]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14^
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  252. [14:15:30] 5[14:15:30]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Yeah the API needs to be as documented as possible
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  258. [14:15:53] 5[14:15:53]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14saying "look through the code, the documentation is there" is not good enough :P
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  260. [14:16:05] 5[14:16:05]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Really? I thought people preferred zero documentation
  261. [14:16:09] 5[14:16:09]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Possibly have forums for developer orientated discussion and better feedback that doesn't require everyone to be online at the same time
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  263. [14:16:15] 5[14:16:15]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14o rally? :D
  264. [14:16:20] 5[14:16:20]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Stating the obvious isn't useful :P
  265. [14:16:21] 5[14:16:21]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Yeah, also the API will grow rather big over time; there are so many different aspects that have to be done.
  266. [14:16:32] 5[14:16:32]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14isn't the bulk of the API closed source?
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  274. [14:17:08] 5[14:17:08]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14As part of involving the community more, I'm hoping to develop an official Minecraft modding community where we could provide people with tools and resources to make plugin development easier
  275. [14:17:14] 5[14:17:14]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14What about first stating what exactly the API will be and contain globally?
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  279. [14:17:25] 5[14:17:25]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14The idea is to make the API some form of 'public source'; this will depend on what Mojang's lawyers will say about it. I think the minimal required shall be to give up rights on contributions to it.
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  293. [14:17:54] 5[14:17:54]15->>2| 7Afforess2 | 14Technically, API's can not be copyrighted in the US
  294. [14:17:55] 5[14:17:55]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14public repository with the interfaces of the api - not the api implementation or the game, just the api interfaces
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  301. [14:18:10] 5[14:18:10]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14^ ^
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  303. [14:18:11] 5[14:18:11]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14So the API is public (opensource, not sure which license), we can take contributions to it but the implementation will be as it is, in obfuscated code
  304. 09[14:18:14] * lightIRC_9359 ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  305. [14:18:18] 5[14:18:18]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14we also have the option of utilising the Mojang Issue Tracker I am working on to manage API suggestions
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  312. [14:18:31] 5[14:18:31]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14but these are just rough ideas for what we had in mind moving forward
  313. [14:18:32] 5[14:18:32]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14APIs can't be copyrighted in europe either
  314. [14:18:35] 5[14:18:35]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Afforess: That is not what the court said, as much as I'd like it to be. Also that's a lower court in one federal district.
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  319. [14:18:41] 5[14:18:41]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14ew obfuscation :(
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  323. [14:18:55] 5[14:18:55]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14any thoughts on how we can make things easier for you guys in terms of communication?
  324. [14:19:09] 5[14:19:09]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Cojo: that won't change right now; the idea is however that we plan to implement Minecraft using the API itself
  325. [14:19:12] 5[14:19:12]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14We hope to provide a developer HUB filled with information relevant to developers
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  328. [14:19:20] 5[14:19:20]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14a dev community/hub would be really cool :)
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  332. [14:19:28] 5[14:19:28]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14as you cannot obfuscate the API itself, almost everything bar small parts of implementation will 'readable like normal'
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  334. [14:19:37] 5[14:19:37]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14I like the idea of a "dev" irc channel
  335. [14:19:39] 5[14:19:39]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14agreed with snowl
  336. [14:19:41] 5[14:19:41]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14(so over time the amount of obfuscated code will drop)
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  338. [14:19:50] 5[14:19:50]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14kinda like this but without 700 people watching :D
  339. [14:19:50] 5[14:19:50]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14a more detailed changelog, for example, listing all changes that might break your work in the upcoming update
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  346. [14:20:12] 5[14:20:12]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14We hope to keep backwards incompatible changes to a minimum by planning the API with help of the community
  347. [14:20:12] 5[14:20:12]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14that would be smart.
  348. [14:20:17] 5[14:20:17]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14Grum, I see :(
  349. [14:20:19] 5[14:20:19]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14all of this will take a lot of time and work and we hope to work hand in hand with the community to make it happen :)
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  353. [14:20:23] 5[14:20:23]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14I assume that the majority of user contributions woudl fall more into 'utility classes' and what not, since the implementation could only be reasonably be done by someone at mojang?
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  363. [14:20:44] 5[14:20:44]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Cojo: there should be no reason to need to even look at obfuscated code
  364. [14:20:48] 5[14:20:48]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14that is the goal
  365. [14:20:54] 5[14:20:54]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14I think github can provide a decent changelog just from commits
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  367. [14:20:57] 5[14:20:57]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14right
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  370. [14:21:00] 5[14:21:00]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14agreed.
  371. [14:21:00] 5[14:21:00]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14yes, though I imagine there would be some third party mods where implementation could be attempted and we could be directed to them
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  380. [14:21:35] 5[14:21:35]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14There are somethings planned for the future of the server/client that will influence what is needed for the API; the most significant part is that we plan to overhaul the client drastically
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  382. [14:21:35] 5[14:21:35]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Risugami, I'm not saying there is, but there may be things we don't wake to publically list despite being committed
  383. [14:21:41] 5[14:21:41]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14Grum, the kind of understanding from reading mcp code should be enough for modders to understand the inner workings of the game
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  389. [14:22:01] 5[14:22:01]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14Has been for me
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  394. [14:22:11] 5[14:22:11]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14if a breaking change is made, how long do you guys suppose the time for migration will be?
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  396. [14:22:19] 5[14:22:19]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Searge: It is unlikely from a legal aspect that MCP can be used by anyone affiliated with Mojang.
  397. [14:22:19] 5[14:22:19]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14The client should become a true client, without any influence bar giving input to the server
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  399. [14:22:23] 5[14:22:23]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14the time of deprecation I mean
  400. [14:22:30] 5[14:22:30]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14that's something that can't be predicted sk89q
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  402. [14:22:35] 5[14:22:35]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14sk89q: I suppose that would depend on the break
  403. [14:22:36] 5[14:22:36]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14oh, I see. That depends on the change, surely
  404. [14:22:39] 5[14:22:39]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14sk89q: the community will have to decide on that alongside mojang
  405. [14:22:41] 5[14:22:41]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Grum: Awesome, it needs it ^_^
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  410. [14:22:54] 5[14:22:54]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14I mean in the best case, when both can coexist
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  415. [14:23:14] 5[14:23:14]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14TkTech, MCP was used by mojang already, that's what jeb said in his answer on reddit ama
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  420. [14:23:16] 5[14:23:16]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14I was hoping people would have ideas on better ways to work together
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  426. [14:23:24] 5[14:23:24]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Another thing that needs to be said is that the idea is to make a plugin api where a plugin is a container of sorts (probably a jar, whatever we decide on) that contains the code for the particular plugin
  427. [14:23:25] 5[14:23:25]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14I've been unable to find the ideal platform for such a thing
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  429. [14:23:36] 5[14:23:36]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14The dev hub sounded cool, with forums and such for discussion, collaboration
  430. [14:23:38] 5[14:23:38]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Searge: I apologize in that case, wasn't aware of that.
  431. [14:23:41] 5[14:23:41]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14This goes along the lines of how Bukkit does it (or for example wow addons)
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  433. [14:23:52] 5[14:23:52]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14everything is spread apart so far: GitHub for pull requests and API development, a wiki for documentation, forums for discussion?
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  436. [14:24:01] 5[14:24:01]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Grum: I agree with that idea
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  439. [14:24:14] 5[14:24:14]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14i agree with Github, its an invaluble asset
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  450. [14:24:22] 5[14:24:22]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14Grum: thats the best way
  451. [14:24:24] 5[14:24:24]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Making it easier to get mods without injecting into the client is a good idea.
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  454. [14:24:28] 5[14:24:28]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Another thing is that we currently are removing SSP as it exist right now
  455. [14:24:34] 5[14:24:34]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14med, one thing at a time
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  458. [14:24:38] 5[14:24:38]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14SSP will become Local Multiplayer
  459. [14:24:44] 5[14:24:44]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14And javadocs
  460. [14:24:45] 5[14:24:45]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14this allows us to not write two implementations to do the same thing
  461. [14:24:47] 5[14:24:47]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14like diablo!
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  467. [14:24:59] 5[14:24:59]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14(also allows the client to be utterly stupid)
  468. [14:25:00] 5[14:25:00]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14EvilSeph: And this will be hosted by Mojang, using existing software?
  469. 09[14:25:02] * King_Rat ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
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  471. [14:25:05] 5[14:25:05]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Cojo: No, like every game since Quake
  472. [14:25:07] 5[14:25:07]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Grum: That will make development considerably easier
  473. 09[14:25:11] * Arag ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  474. [14:25:15] 5[14:25:15]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14:p
  475. [14:25:21] 5[14:25:21]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14(And SMP more secure :P)
  476. [14:25:22] 5[14:25:22]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14TkTech, I haven't really looked into this yet so I do not have an answer
  477. [14:25:23] 5[14:25:23]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Cojo: Diablo III is online multiplayer online, that's different
  478. [14:25:26] 5[14:25:26]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Xie: that is our goal yes; no more troubles making your stuff work on MP or SP or whatever, it should all be the same
  479. 09[14:25:27] * jefe|afk ([email protected]) has left #minecraftdev
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  482. 09[14:25:40] * EvilSeph sets mode: +b *!*@5e0fd5d3.bb.sky.com
  483. 09[14:25:40] * HUGE_COCK_AND_BALLS was kicked by EvilSeph (HUGE_COCK_AND_BALLS)
  484. [14:25:45] 5[14:25:45]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Saw that coming
  485. 09[14:25:45] * chdsbd ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  486. 12[14:25:49] * JCvsMC ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
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  488. [14:25:51] 5[14:25:51]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14Well I haven't played D3 so I shouldn't have even brought it up
  489. [14:25:52] 5[14:25:52]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14massively singleplayer online
  490. [14:25:52] 5[14:25:52]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Another thing is that we intend to create a central repo
  491. 12[14:25:53] * mantal ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 202 seconds)
  492. [14:25:56] 5[14:25:56]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14lol
  493. 09[14:26:02] * Septimus ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
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  495. [14:26:12] 5[14:26:12]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14I am mostly sharing with you guys what we've been discussing since that meeting we had in Stockholm.
  496. 12[14:26:16] * RaustBD ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
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  500. [14:26:30] 5[14:26:30]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Grum: Any plans to do a package manager for that repo or will it just be a website to download from
  501. 09[14:26:31] * NightKev ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  502. [14:26:34] 5[14:26:34]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14Grum: so basically you plan on adding most of the stuff (like movement, rendering and all) to be modified by the server?
  503. 09[14:26:38] * wizjany_ ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
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  506. [14:26:53] 5[14:26:53]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14Rendering would be handled by the client
  507. 12[14:26:53] * Chris_ ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  508. [14:26:54] 5[14:26:54]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14Not the server
  509. 09[14:26:58] * Adikso ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  510. [14:27:04] 5[14:27:04]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14how we structure this will have to be decided later; but one of the features that it adds is being able to automatically get data from a trusted source when joining a server that requires something
  511. 09[14:27:10] * LmfaoBen ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  512. [14:27:13] 5[14:27:13]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14i mean like, you can change where the GUI:s are created etc. or how far is it going?
  513. [14:27:14] 5[14:27:14]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14medsouz, we're hoping it will be a smooth experience that makes sense and focuses on ease of use but this is all subject to change
  514. 12[14:27:16] * Adi ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
  515. [14:27:16] 5[14:27:16]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14automatically update your mods, browse stuff from within the game and install it
  516. 09[14:27:17] * Blade ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  517. [14:27:19] 5[14:27:19]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14medsouz: that covers it
  518. 12[14:27:24] * Arag ([email protected]) Quit (Client Quit)
  519. [14:27:25] 5[14:27:25]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14Serverside rendering would not end well, if I had to guess
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  521. [14:27:29] 5[14:27:29]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14I think we should ask for features at the end and discuss the general concepts first
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  525. [14:27:35] 5[14:27:35]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14agreed
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  528. [14:27:53] 5[14:27:53]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14So in the end, even the movement that happends by input goes through a server?
  529. [14:28:01] 5[14:28:01]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14yeah
  530. 09[14:28:08] * sargunster ([email protected]) has left #minecraftdev
  531. [14:28:09] 5[14:28:09]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14ideally the move is predicted on the client
  532. [14:28:09] 5[14:28:09]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14people have already requested doing '3rd party repos' -- what we do with this is undecided sofar
  533. [14:28:09] 5[14:28:09]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14Jarvix: read sarge ^
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  540. [14:28:25] 5[14:28:25]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14and the server does all the hard work
  541. [14:28:37] 5[14:28:37]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14I think eventually it needs to be added; but as we cannot guarantee that what you download is also what someone else uploaded
  542. [14:28:37] 5[14:28:37]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Wouldn't that idea break for lagging servers?
  543. [14:28:41] 5[14:28:41]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14So no more flymods, xray mods and asstd other hax? :P
  544. 12[14:28:47] * Svajoklis ([email protected]) Quit
  545. [14:28:48] 5[14:28:48]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14Grum: an apt-get like system?
  546. 09[14:28:50] * ibhh ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  547. [14:28:51] 5[14:28:51]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Jarvix: yes; also it removes almost all hacked clients
  548. 09[14:28:55] * bculkin2442 ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
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  551. [14:28:59] 5[14:28:59]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14and, tbh, I would rather like to discuss (later) what mojang should not implement - and leave to modders - and what they should implement in the api
  552. 09[14:29:00] * sushen117 ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  553. [14:29:01] 5[14:29:01]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: A simple "This download is untrusted, are you sure you want to…?" would suffice.
  554. [14:29:08] 5[14:29:08]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Obviously we'd like to do whatever we can to reduce the amount of malicious activity people can do
  555. [14:29:09] 5[14:29:09]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Snowl: perhaps; but a 3rdparty repo could for example have extra nagging of the client to ensure you 'want to download'
  556. [14:29:13] 5[14:29:13]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14TkTech: indeed
  557. 12[14:29:17] * wizjany ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 190 seconds)
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  560. [14:29:23] 5[14:29:23]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14sounds good
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  564. [14:29:28] 5[14:29:28]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Yes which is fine. But it might disallow home-run servers for friends. Too slow.
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  571. [14:30:00] 5[14:30:00]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14On malicious things, the idea is to sandbox the plugins on client/server so you cannot 'do bad stuff'; optionally giving out 'rights to break out' if the user accepts
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  577. [14:30:18] 5[14:30:18]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Searge: I think the idea is to not have modders anymore
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  582. [14:30:32] 5[14:30:32]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14Then who would use the api?
  583. 09[14:30:39] * herrkush ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  584. [14:30:39] 5[14:30:39]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14right, but the concept of "trusted" is a fleeting thing and having a system where developers are marked as trusted isn't realistic
  585. 09[14:30:47] * dokepoken ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  586. [14:30:49] 5[14:30:49]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Is sandboxing not way to much work?
  587. [14:30:49] 5[14:30:49]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14Grum, the solution is so easy - if the client does nothing more than IO, the server has the mods/plugins - end users are more or less safe
  588. 12[14:30:57] * ComicRetrolution ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 190 seconds)
  589. [14:30:58] 5[14:30:58]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Searge, that's the plan
  590. [14:30:58] 5[14:30:58]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Modders as in people cracking open the jar and changing things
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  594. [14:31:03] 5[14:31:03]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Jarvix: In the JVM it's actually relatively easy.
  595. [14:31:05] 5[14:31:05]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Searge: io limited to a folder we assign it for example
  596. 09[14:31:07] * Jadedwolf ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  597. [14:31:07] 5[14:31:07]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14I like the optional IO usage, some mods require that but others could use it maliciously
  598. 09[14:31:10] * ExpZzz ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  599. [14:31:12] 5[14:31:12]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Agree with Searge
  600. [14:31:18] 5[14:31:18]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14we want to change Minecraft so that we stop trusting user input so much
  601. 09[14:31:20] * zimko ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  602. [14:31:30] 5[14:31:30]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14that should fix all the current exploits except xray
  603. [14:31:37] 5[14:31:37]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14all you need to ensure - no way for server admins to steal client credentials
  604. [14:31:38] 5[14:31:38]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14dont trust the client. :
  605. [14:31:38] 5[14:31:38]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14quite easy to do
  606. [14:31:39] 5[14:31:39]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14:D
  607. 09[14:31:39] * ltouroumov ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  608. [14:31:46] 5[14:31:46]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14so no more floating, breaking blocks behind you, breaking 100 blocks in a second god knows what :P
  609. 09[14:31:55] * EhudBlum ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  610. [14:31:57] 5[14:31:57]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14That is really awesome news for server admins
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  613. [14:32:02] 5[14:32:02]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14yea seriously.
  614. 09[14:32:03] * KacperNFS ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  615. [14:32:09] 5[14:32:09]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14this is however a MASSIVE change
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  617. [14:32:16] 5[14:32:16]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14what if certain servers want to keep their client mods somewhat private? what will happen in that situation?
  618. [14:32:20] 5[14:32:20]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14yeah the security is really something to pay attention into, but it also causes more bandwidth / resource usage for the server end, but that might be the only way to break the exploits from happening.. :)
  619. [14:32:22] 5[14:32:22]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14A lot of refactoring
  620. [14:32:25] 5[14:32:25]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14Grum, no more A** videos on youtube? booooring :p
  621. [14:32:34] 5[14:32:34]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14another thing that will be changing is that the client will somehow have to get custom assets (sounds/models/textures/etc)
  622. 09[14:32:34] * SamS ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
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  627. [14:32:45] 5[14:32:45]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14(oh and blocks items etc)
  628. 09[14:32:46] * Cavantar ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  629. [14:32:49] 5[14:32:49]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Kulttuuri: Actually, the bandwidth usage will continue to be similar.
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  632. [14:32:58] 5[14:32:58]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14we will have to devise external formats for most of these thing so they can be communicated simply
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  635. [14:33:05] 5[14:33:05]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14sweet
  636. [14:33:06] 5[14:33:06]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14THis all sounds like a rewrite of the full server (which is not a bad thing at all).
  637. 09[14:33:10] * throwawaybrian ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  638. [14:33:12] 5[14:33:12]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Grum: Xie's Mod acquires custom assets from servers as of Jun26 ^_^
  639. 12[14:33:14] * Ed ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
  640. [14:33:14] 5[14:33:14]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Kulttuuri: Instead of sending 16 bytes saying you moved X, you send only a few bytes saying you pressed left.
  641. 09[14:33:18] * mr_flea|Webchat ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  642. [14:33:22] 5[14:33:22]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Kulttuuri: (as a bad example)
  643. [14:33:23] 5[14:33:23]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14full rewrite*
  644. 09[14:33:29] * Erus_Iluvatar ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  645. [14:33:30] 5[14:33:30]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14yea as an simple example yes
  646. [14:33:30] 5[14:33:30]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14any plans to dump SoundManager in favor of a sound engine that supports loading from zips?
  647. [14:33:30] 5[14:33:30]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14sk89q: we have to see hwo to solve this; as it is looking how we might not need *ANY* code on the client
  648. 09[14:33:30] * SnoobY ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
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  651. [14:33:44] 5[14:33:44]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14besidez
  652. 09[14:33:51] * golie25 ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  653. [14:33:54] 5[14:33:54]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14besides renderinng
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  655. [14:34:00] 5[14:34:00]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14sk89q: it should be easy enough if we allow 3rd party repos to allow this for the server itself as well
  656. 12[14:34:06] * ada_ ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  657. [14:34:06] 5[14:34:06]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Snowl: Any code that isn't from mojang :P
  658. 12[14:34:06] * Michael4797 ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  659. [14:34:11] 5[14:34:11]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Risugami: we need to overhaul all assetmanaging
  660. [14:34:14] 5[14:34:14]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Will it be like Source where the server sends you the files you need when you join it?
  661. 12[14:34:18] * ihzahyah ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
  662. [14:34:21] 5[14:34:21]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14medsouz, yes
  663. [14:34:21] 5[14:34:21]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14so yes; we will need to make something that doe sthat
  664. [14:34:30] 5[14:34:30]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14user prompted, of course
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  671. [14:34:44] 5[14:34:44]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14we already started exploring that idea with texture packs
  672. [14:34:45] 5[14:34:45]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14medsouz: yes; but likely the server will tell you what it is named and where you can get it
  673. 09[14:34:49] * hihu ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
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  675. [14:34:55] 5[14:34:55]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14WOn't this (nearly) blow up the server? It's implementation has to be utterly efficient.
  676. 09[14:34:58] * drayshak (~quassel@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fe96:e418) has joined #minecraftdev
  677. [14:34:59] 5[14:34:59]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14the texture pack setup is a good move forward
  678. 12[14:34:59] * Siphion ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Sto andando via)
  679. [14:35:08] 5[14:35:08]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Jarvix: which implementation?
  680. 12[14:35:08] * Rigonkmalk ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
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  682. [14:35:09] 5[14:35:09]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Jarvix, how so? it would be sent from the repo
  683. [14:35:12] 5[14:35:12]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14of the server.
  684. [14:35:12] 5[14:35:12]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14not the server itself
  685. [14:35:15] 5[14:35:15]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14well, sounds pretty nice if you can just join & server sends you all the blocks, items & textures. Is this where you are heading into?
  686. [14:35:19] 5[14:35:19]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Jarvix: it could send you a URL and make you download it via HTTP
  687. 09[14:35:20] * Daan ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  688. [14:35:23] 5[14:35:23]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14I mean the whole Citrix-idea.
  689. [14:35:26] 5[14:35:26]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Kulttuuri, that's the idea, yes
  690. [14:35:30] 5[14:35:30]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Jarvix: so the server would tell the client: 'go get X v1.0; Y v2.1' and it would get it from the repo
  691. [14:35:30] 5[14:35:30]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14EvilSeph: i like it.
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  694. [14:35:35] 5[14:35:35]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14(or from its cache if the client already has it)
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  701. [14:35:50] 5[14:35:50]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14i mean the thin-client part. sorry, 10 lines back.
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  704. [14:35:53] 5[14:35:53]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14and we'll obviously try and introduce failsafes for if a block is in the world that no longer exists because the plugin is no longer active
  705. [14:35:59] 5[14:35:59]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14for example
  706. [14:36:02] 5[14:36:02]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14Mind you, when you disconnect, you need an option to either a) keep the stuff you download for the server
  707. 12[14:36:02] * BCsiefert ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
  708. [14:36:06] 5[14:36:06]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14or b) get rid of it.
  709. [14:36:12] 5[14:36:12]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14the client should cache the plugins it downloads
  710. [14:36:13] 5[14:36:13]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Jarvix: Um, I don't think you understand what they've said
  711. [14:36:15] 5[14:36:15]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Cache it
  712. 12[14:36:18] * Deform ([email protected]) Quit (Excess Flood)
  713. [14:36:19] 5[14:36:19]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14exactly.
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  716. [14:36:36] 5[14:36:36]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Amaranth i think i do understand.
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  720. [14:36:47] 5[14:36:47]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14mind you, if i join 50 servers in one day trying to find what i want to play on, it might get...hectic
  721. 12[14:36:47] * lightIRC_9359 ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 190 seconds)
  722. [14:36:48] 5[14:36:48]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Grum: it will use MD5 hashes to verify the files correct?
  723. [14:36:51] 5[14:36:51]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Jarvix: The client handles rendering, the server just provides it with the assets to render. We aren't talking render on the server and RDP things
  724. [14:36:56] 5[14:36:56]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14So another thing that came up right after; if someone updates a texture; i have to download the whole package again, (ditto for code; or even worse for localisation)
  725. 12[14:37:00] * beaker ([email protected]) Quit (Client Quit)
  726. [14:37:06] 5[14:37:06]15->>2| 7FlowerChild2 | 14is this auto-download system really API related? It seems that there are much more fundamental issues which would need to be addressed first
  727. [14:37:07] 5[14:37:07]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14it's important to store ID mappings with worlds, I want to be able to send a worldsave to a friend, even if he has a differnt set of mods and different IDs for blocks, items, etc.
  728. [14:37:13] 5[14:37:13]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14medsouz: some hash perhaps
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  732. [14:37:24] 5[14:37:24]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Jarvix: The server already does pretty much everything except UI anyway if you think that would be extra load :P
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  735. [14:37:29] 5[14:37:29]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Searge: yes internally we need to get rid of ID's except when we write things to disk or communicate with a client
  736. [14:37:34] 5[14:37:34]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Mmm.
  737. 12[14:37:43] * MinecraftEpicKid_ ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  738. [14:37:48] 5[14:37:48]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14*cough dynamic ids cough*
  739. [14:37:48] 5[14:37:48]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14items have to be 'server wide' and blocks should be per world
  740. [14:38:03] 5[14:38:03]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14question
  741. [14:38:03] 5[14:38:03]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14medsouz: An MD5 hash would only be suitable for making sure the download is in tact, not for verification. It is possible these days to create hash collisions.
  742. [14:38:04] 5[14:38:04]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Maybe a hashmap stored in the save that maps the block name to an id
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  746. [14:38:11] 5[14:38:11]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14if you cached these plugins/mods
  747. [14:38:15] 5[14:38:15]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Searge: yes so the server stores which id's are stored for whick 'identifier' in some way
  748. 12[14:38:19] * drewdaniels ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
  749. [14:38:19] 5[14:38:19]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14on a local server
  750. 09[14:38:26] * rhys ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  751. [14:38:26] 5[14:38:26]15->>2| 7Afforess2 | 14Been there, done that
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  754. [14:38:33] 5[14:38:33]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14could you force the use of them on another server?
  755. [14:38:37] 5[14:38:37]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14So every save will have "Stone" but what id is given to it can be different
  756. [14:38:39] 5[14:38:39]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14TkTech: verification could come from the fact that you can download over ssl and verify the location you download it from
  757. [14:38:41] 5[14:38:41]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14that might be a problem.
  758. 12[14:38:46] * herrkush ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
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  760. [14:38:47] 5[14:38:47]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14just use a sha1 hash instead of an md5... it's a no-brainer.
  761. 12[14:38:47] * FishyBusiness ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: One small step for Java, one giant leap for IRC.)
  762. [14:38:49] 5[14:38:49]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Will we continue talking about the assets or will we discuss the actual API?
  763. [14:38:52] 5[14:38:52]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14and SHA1 anti colissions ;)
  764. 09[14:38:59] * HunterDKS ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  765. [14:39:01] 5[14:39:01]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14jarvix, one thing at a time :P
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  770. [14:39:17] 5[14:39:17]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14I also think the exact details of using SHA1 or MD5 don't really matter at this time :P
  771. [14:39:18] 5[14:39:18]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14Grum, exactly, in my opinion ALL internal IDs in the game should be dynamically assigned when you create a new world and the mapping stored as part of the worlds .dat file
  772. [14:39:20] 5[14:39:20]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14evilseph: your example was
  773. 12[14:39:26] * xxx ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
  774. [14:39:30] 5[14:39:30]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: That only ensures /where/ you are downloading it from, not what you're downloading from there, which affects sites hosting public mods, for example.
  775. [14:39:32] 5[14:39:32]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Snowl, sorry?
  776. 09[14:39:32] * John_Guant ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  777. [14:39:32] 5[14:39:32]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Anyhow; one problem is localisation; i'd like to make localisation external for *everything* (including minecraft itself)
  778. 09[14:39:35] * nullv ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  779. [14:39:38] 5[14:39:38]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: Which would require per-jar signing.
  780. 09[14:39:41] * RagingCactus ([email protected]) has left #minecraftdev
  781. [14:39:42] 5[14:39:42]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14so no-one is required to keep updating 500 languages
  782. 09[14:39:43] * Scott (~scott@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fe93:f1ba) has joined #minecraftdev
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  786. [14:39:49] 5[14:39:49]15->>2| 7Afforess2 | 14Searge, Grum, why are we even discussing this stuff? I assume that everyone agrees dynamic ids, hashing assets are good ideas
  787. [14:39:50] 5[14:39:50]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14Handling invalid blocks items
  788. [14:39:51] 5[14:39:51]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14TkTech: yes
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  792. [14:40:02] 5[14:40:02]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Afforess: that is why we blaze past them
  793. 09[14:40:02] * Shadowriku ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  794. [14:40:04] 5[14:40:04]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Snowl, yes?
  795. [14:40:06] 5[14:40:06]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14stuff has to be mentioned at least
  796. [14:40:17] 5[14:40:17]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14DV8FromTheWorld sure, but I still think we should be talking about interfaces and not (detailed) implementations, yet.
  797. [14:40:18] 5[14:40:18]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14is there going to be any checks for conflicting plugins, for instance if several plugins modify same game functionality, you will get a warning for that?
  798. 12[14:40:23] * Launchy21 ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
  799. [14:40:24] 5[14:40:24]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Snowl: yes on handling invalid blocks (ea you load a world with a block that was made by aplugin that is now gone)
  800. [14:40:26] 5[14:40:26]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14a completely dynamic ID assignment would also allow modders to disable parts of existing game mechanics, everyone talks about adding features - i have at least 5 mod ideas that basically just remove/disable mc features
  801. 12[14:40:27] * nullv ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Bye)
  802. [14:40:27] 5[14:40:27]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14jarvix, totally agree
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  806. [14:40:41] 5[14:40:41]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14make a first pass on stuff
  807. [14:40:43] 5[14:40:43]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Snowl: my idea on that was to register a 'default behavior' for when that should happen
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  810. [14:40:50] 5[14:40:50]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14come back to it later for more indepth
  811. 12[14:40:50] * KacperNFS ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  812. [14:40:52] 5[14:40:52]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14I agree, we don't want to get so technical so soon
  813. [14:40:55] 5[14:40:55]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14Grum: ok
  814. [14:40:58] 5[14:40:58]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Kulttuuri: They aren't modifying the same files (no more modifying files!) so I'm not sure how doable that'd be
  815. [14:41:03] 5[14:41:03]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14SnoobY: this is a bit indept
  816. [14:41:07] 5[14:41:07]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14meh cat in front of screen!
  817. [14:41:10] 5[14:41:10]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14lol Snowl
  818. [14:41:11] 5[14:41:11]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14lol
  819. [14:41:11] 5[14:41:11]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14sorry =)
  820. [14:41:12] 5[14:41:12]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14okay
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  829. [14:41:30] 5[14:41:30]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14So what has to be in this API?
  830. [14:41:31] 5[14:41:31]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Searge, the dream is to make Minecraft completely modular
  831. [14:41:36] 5[14:41:36]15->>2| 11Tahg2 | 14Kulttuuri, not sure how possible that is
  832. 12[14:41:36] * jeff_yellow ([email protected]) Quit
  833. [14:41:37] 5[14:41:37]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14so one thing we have to do somewhere along the line; is decide which areas to cover in the API
  834. [14:41:38] 5[14:41:38]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14xie, technical would be "I want void removeBlock(int id)", basic concepts is "I want to disable features" :p
  835. 12[14:41:39] * Pinguointoxic ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
  836. [14:41:42] 5[14:41:42]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Hate creepers? Yank the Creeper plugin out
  837. [14:41:52] 5[14:41:52]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Searge: fair point
  838. [14:41:53] 5[14:41:53]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Searge: would be by string but yes
  839. [14:42:03] 5[14:42:03]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14we want to get the API to a point where we are developing with it - that is when we know the API is good :)
  840. 09[14:42:06] * tommyjkk ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
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  842. [14:42:09] 5[14:42:09]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14(and the world would map it to an id if it knows it)
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  844. [14:42:14] 5[14:42:14]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14EvilSeph: I like it!
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  849. [14:42:26] 5[14:42:26]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14So less hardcoded content?
  850. [14:42:29] 5[14:42:29]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14EvilSeph: Sounds good!
  851. 12[14:42:35] * Jeremail|Phone (~Jeremail|@89.204.153.161) Quit (Quit: Jeremail|Phone)
  852. [14:42:35] 5[14:42:35]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14EvilSeph, that seems a bit cumbersome. Perhaps all the default mojang "plugins" can be more configurable
  853. [14:42:35] 5[14:42:35]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14I said that way back!
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  855. [14:42:45] 5[14:42:45]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14the extra bonus is that each module could act as an example for the API usage too
  856. [14:42:47] 5[14:42:47]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14EvilSeph, as soon as the default minecraft game mechanics are all just a bunch of plugins to the core engine, I think you basically have an API that most people could use
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  859. [14:42:52] 5[14:42:52]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Cojo: if we do not use the plugin api ourselves then we do not test it properly
  860. [14:42:54] 5[14:42:54]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14less hardcoded content, more stuff abstracted to interfaces
  861. [14:42:55] 5[14:42:55]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14like a checkbox of sorts rather than having to take stuff out and put stuff in
  862. 09[14:42:55] * Remixz ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  863. [14:42:57] 5[14:42:57]15->>2| 7Afforess2 | 14Minecraft as a modular plugin, dynamic ids, hashed content....sounds familiar.
  864. 09[14:42:58] * Crusader ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  865. [14:43:07] 5[14:43:07]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Grum, could we move on to the API instead of what we will do with IDs please? ...
  866. [14:43:08] 5[14:43:08]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Afforess: not multithreaded! =D
  867. 09[14:43:19] * Folrig ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  868. [14:43:21] 5[14:43:21]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Afforess: I've yet to see you say anything useful
  869. 12[14:43:24] * [JF] ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
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  871. [14:43:26] 5[14:43:26]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14Grum, fair enough. but that's going to be a lot of plugins loaded, so that system better be pretty well optimized
  872. 09[14:43:30] * TheFriskyOne ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  873. [14:43:39] 5[14:43:39]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14well in Bukkit people load 200-300 plugins
  874. [14:43:44] 5[14:43:44]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14it shouldn't really matter
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  881. [14:43:57] 5[14:43:57]15->>2| 11Tahg2 | 14having core in plugins won't really be any worse than hardcoded
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  884. [14:44:04] 5[14:44:04]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14maybe some way to reduce conflicting plugins could be a way so that it automatically lists what was modified with the plugin / user adds the functionaltiy that the plugin has / user adds possibly conflicting plugins etc...
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  891. [14:44:19] 5[14:44:19]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Ok, so just to make 1 thing clear; the idea is to *NEVER* need to break open the jarfile anymore
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  895. [14:44:33] 5[14:44:33]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Kulttuuri: In practice that is not easy to implement or maintain.
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  898. [14:44:42] 5[14:44:42]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14yea thats what i though
  899. [14:44:46] 5[14:44:46]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14so yes; initially we will lack features; so people will still want to do that as they are doing now, but over time; hopefully with help of everyone we can get ~95% of the requested things covered
  900. [14:44:47] 5[14:44:47]15->>2| 7Afforess2 | 14Amaranth: anything useful
  901. 12[14:44:50] * SupermanSe7enSins ([email protected]) Quit (Client Quit)
  902. [14:44:51] 5[14:44:51]15->>2| 7Afforess2 | 14said it ^/^
  903. 09[14:44:53] * KsaRedFx ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  904. [14:45:00] 5[14:45:00]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14so you'd just have to live with it :p
  905. 09[14:45:03] * jebuzjack ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  906. [14:45:08] 5[14:45:08]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14Grum, I'm able to mod ANY part of minecraft without even touching the minecraft.jar file :p *ducks and hides*
  907. 12[14:45:09] * matt_ ([email protected]) Quit (Client Quit)
  908. [14:45:09] 5[14:45:09]15->>2| 7FlowerChild2 | 14Grum: Jeb (I think it was him) made the point awhile ago that both mods and plugins would continue to exist. Are you saying here that will not be the case?
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  913. [14:45:25] 5[14:45:25]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14FlowerChild, the goal is to make mods no longer necessary
  914. [14:45:26] 5[14:45:26]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14FlowerChild: hacking open the jar you can always do
  915. 12[14:45:27] * JavaGuest848 ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: One small step for Java, one giant leap for IRC.)
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  918. [14:45:38] 5[14:45:38]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14but we won't force you to stop
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  920. [14:45:42] 5[14:45:42]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Grum but will it be legally condoned
  921. [14:45:43] 5[14:45:43]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14but its not supported by any sort of install system, or attempt to resolve conflicts or anything; you are on your own as you are now
  922. [14:45:47] 5[14:45:47]15->>2| 7FlowerChild2 | 14because frankly, I don't see an API being able to cover all the functionality I need for BTW within the next year :)
  923. 12[14:45:52] * Kaliwalf ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 13.0.1/20120614114901])
  924. [14:45:52] 5[14:45:52]15->>2| 15Cojo highfives Searge2 |
  925. [14:45:54] 5[14:45:54]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14unless you fix the security hole in the launcher....
  926. [14:45:56] 5[14:45:56]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14FlowerChild: like what?
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  929. [14:45:59] 5[14:45:59]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14if we can achieve that goal, we're very close to a very good API :)
  930. 09[14:46:02] * HitlerRock ([email protected]) has left #minecraftdev
  931. [14:46:06] 5[14:46:06]15->>2| 7LexManos2 | 14Mods will continue to exist due to that 5% that the API will never be able to cover.
  932. [14:46:07] 5[14:46:07]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14SO if we DO crack open a Jar, decompile and release such code, we will not get sued?
  933. [14:46:11] 5[14:46:11]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Like it is now?
  934. [14:46:16] 5[14:46:16]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14FlowerChild: Sounds like a challenge, like what
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  937. [14:46:25] 5[14:46:25]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14So BTW can carry on as it is now, and other mods like it
  938. [14:46:28] 5[14:46:28]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Things are not changing in that regard
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  941. [14:46:36] 5[14:46:36]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14LexManos: the 5% could be something like 'i need to change the whole world so its not minecraft anymore' .. yeah erm you can do that .. but i am quite sure you might be able to do what you want with the API
  942. 09[14:46:39] * mudkipZzZ ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
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  945. [14:46:50] 5[14:46:50]15->>2| 7FlowerChild2 | 14my mod makes extensive base-class changes, I believe to something like 50+ files, including some very obscure functionality that wouldn't really make sense as part of an API
  946. 12[14:46:51] * stringa93 ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Nine out of ten l33t h4x0rz prefer it)
  947. [14:46:54] 5[14:46:54]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14you can *never* create an API that covers everything; lets aim to please everyone as good as possible
  948. [14:46:57] 5[14:46:57]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14MCP decided to keep the project alive as long as we have at least a certain amount of users/downloads, so this option will not disappear anytime soon, nevertheless, only using the official API will make your mods compatible with new minecaft version without hassle
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  952. [14:47:03] 5[14:47:03]15->>2| 7LexManos2 | 14Grum, thats what i said...
  953. [14:47:04] 5[14:47:04]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14Maybe you shouldn't make such extensive base-class changes
  954. [14:47:06] 5[14:47:06]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14FlowerChild: name one thing please :)
  955. 09[14:47:08] * ABCRic ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  956. [14:47:09] 5[14:47:09]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14FlowerChild the idea is you won't need to make base class changes
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  959. [14:47:16] 5[14:47:16]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14I can't speak from a legal standpoint as I am not a lawyer, but we do not have any plans to change the way things are currently
  960. [14:47:17] 5[14:47:17]15->>2| 7FlowerChild2 | 14ok, here's a good example: wolves producing dung
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  963. [14:47:21] 5[14:47:21]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14that is easy
  964. [14:47:24] 5[14:47:24]15->>2| 7FlowerChild2 | 14do you seriously see a hook for that?
  965. [14:47:25] 5[14:47:25]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14sorry bout that, internet died.
  966. [14:47:26] 5[14:47:26]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14at least we can be sure that any mods done to the client will have the api in their modified code, unless they are stupid
  967. 12[14:47:32] * Drant ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
  968. [14:47:37] 5[14:47:37]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14that is behavior for a wolf; they occasionally spawn 'dung entities' on the world
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  972. [14:47:48] 5[14:47:48]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14so to implement that; we need to be able to add behavior to entities
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  975. [14:47:49] 5[14:47:49]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14please bear in mind, everything said here today is not set in stone, but these are the goals and ideas we're hoping to realise eventually :)
  976. [14:47:49] 5[14:47:49]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14You add a Behavior to the wolf "Spawn Item"
  977. [14:47:52] 5[14:47:52]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14and then we are set
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  979. [14:47:58] 5[14:47:58]15->>2| 7FlowerChild2 | 14ok, so you see us being able to hook into any entities update cycle?
  980. [14:48:03] 5[14:48:03]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14no
  981. [14:48:06] 5[14:48:06]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14no 'raw hooking'
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  983. [14:48:13] 5[14:48:13]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14Generalize it to a periodic behavior that you can add to an entity's "task list"
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  986. [14:48:16] 5[14:48:16]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14think of what you need and think of how you can provide an API for it that 'makes sense'
  987. [14:48:17] 5[14:48:17]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14I feel like a lot of what modders need could be accomplished with the shared github
  988. [14:48:23] 5[14:48:23]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14So can one of the mojangastas here confirm that the policy on modding will NOT change?
  989. 09[14:48:27] * Zero3 ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  990. [14:48:29] 5[14:48:29]15->>2| 7LexManos2 | 14MC already has 'AI Tasks' that you could use quite easily to produce said dung
  991. [14:48:30] 5[14:48:30]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14ES confirmed it
  992. [14:48:31] 5[14:48:31]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14A lot of modders seem to think that everything needs to be done in a very specific way
  993. [14:48:33] 5[14:48:33]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14Jarvix
  994. [14:48:36] 5[14:48:36]15->>2| 7LexManos2 | 14No base edits needed
  995. 09[14:48:36] * ThievingSix ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  996. [14:48:37] 5[14:48:37]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Jarvix: there is no indication it will change right now; so yes it will not change
  997. 12[14:48:40] * stardustrider ([email protected]) Quit
  998. [14:48:40] 5[14:48:40]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14Yeah, what LexManos said, too
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  1002. [14:48:55] 5[14:48:55]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14To clarify an earlier question; Will only the absolute core and interfaces be implemented in minecraft_server.jar (for example) and everything - including for example world generation - would structurally be implemented as a plugin?
  1003. [14:48:59] 5[14:48:59]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14That is good to hear.
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  1005. [14:49:01] 5[14:49:01]15->>2| 7FlowerChild2 | 14does that include adding the task to the specific entity Lex?
  1006. 12[14:49:05] * LimeByte ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  1007. [14:49:08] 5[14:49:08]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14TkTech: yes worldgeneration is one of the things that we will add
  1008. [14:49:10] 5[14:49:10]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Bah, modem died
  1009. [14:49:11] 5[14:49:11]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14The advantage of this is forcing the API to get fleshed out by a minimal practical application.
  1010. 12[14:49:11] * keivlech ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
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  1013. [14:49:15] 5[14:49:15]15->>2| 7LexManos2 | 14Yes it does FC
  1014. [14:49:15] 5[14:49:15]15->>2| 15ShaRose just got online for the first time today2 |
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  1016. [14:49:22] 5[14:49:22]15->>2| 7FlowerChild2 | 14cool...will check it out then ;)
  1017. [14:49:23] 5[14:49:23]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14:o
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  1020. [14:49:40] 5[14:49:40]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14also like Bukkit has -- a form of multiworlds (so you can create your own worlds, link them up in some way (make your own gating system) and provide your own generators
  1021. [14:49:41] 5[14:49:41]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14I don't see why it'd be one plugin
  1022. [14:49:46] 5[14:49:46]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14Grum, EvilSeph, even though you create an official api to use and (ofc) want everyone to use it, how much would you refuse to add smaller changes requested from the community if their only purpose would be to make "classical" modding easier?
  1023. [14:49:48] 5[14:49:48]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14TkTech, we're not currently sure how far we want to go with making things modular but the dream is to have everything that makes sense to be modular, be modular.
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  1028. [14:50:06] 5[14:50:06]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Searge: there is no reason to do classical modding if there is an API to do the same not?
  1029. 09[14:50:06] * Nanofus ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
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  1033. [14:50:14] 5[14:50:14]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14If you have one massive plugin you'd then have to have one massively huge complicated config file to be able to fine tune what parts of it you want
  1034. [14:50:14] 5[14:50:14]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14so why would be taint a clean system with things like that?
  1035. [14:50:21] 5[14:50:21]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14we'd have to address that on a case by case basis, Searge..it's hard to have a sweeping response to that question
  1036. [14:50:34] 5[14:50:34]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14yes; if there is no way to do something and there is enough support/merrit to do something 'the hard way' then we can look into adding it anyhow
  1037. 09[14:50:39] * efreak1996 ([email protected]) has left #minecraftdev
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  1039. [14:50:46] 5[14:50:46]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Grum: Some things it seems like you will only be able to do with "classical" modding
  1040. [14:50:49] 5[14:50:49]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14like?
  1041. 09[14:50:54] * marktech ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1042. [14:50:56] 5[14:50:56]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14I am quite sure I can put most things in an API
  1043. 09[14:50:56] * shod ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1044. [14:50:57] 5[14:50:57]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14OptiFine for example
  1045. [14:51:02] 5[14:51:02]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14overriding the entity renderer
  1046. [14:51:02] 5[14:51:02]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14optifine which way? shaders?
  1047. 12[14:51:07] * denniss17 ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
  1048. [14:51:09] 5[14:51:09]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Cojo: overriding it to do *what*
  1049. [14:51:09] 5[14:51:09]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14editing the rendering code
  1050. 09[14:51:11] * ABCRic ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1051. [14:51:15] 5[14:51:15]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14edit it to do what?
  1052. [14:51:20] 5[14:51:20]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14run better
  1053. [14:51:21] 5[14:51:21]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14a whooooole lot
  1054. [14:51:21] 5[14:51:21]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14I don't know if anyone has already asked it yet (Haven't re-read everything that's been said so far, since for a lot of it I'd need to pull logs off my bouncer), but it might be a good idea to let people make API extensions that could be on the repo (until they get pulled into the vanilla API that is)
  1055. [14:51:25] 5[14:51:25]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14DV8FromTheWorld: planned
  1056. [14:51:29] 5[14:51:29]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14Cojo: Why would you want to override the EntityRenderer?
  1057. [14:51:33] 5[14:51:33]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14be more efficient, work a bit differently, etc
  1058. [14:51:33] 5[14:51:33]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14bloody awesome
  1059. 09[14:51:34] * Rashed ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1060. [14:51:36] 5[14:51:36]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14Corosus had to do it for his tornadoes
  1061. [14:51:36] 4[14:51:36] Nick Alert From Channel: #minecraftdev
  1062. [14:51:36] 3[14:51:36] Keyword Alert From Channel: #minecraftdev
  1063. [14:51:37] 5[14:51:37]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14please try and be more specific, so we can more easily address your concerns :)
  1064. [14:51:38] 5[14:51:38]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14ShaRose that was discussed earlier
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  1067. [14:51:42] 5[14:51:42]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14my 15 FPS praises you
  1068. [14:51:45] 5[14:51:45]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14medsouz: we are rewriting the rendering engine soon
  1069. [14:51:47] 5[14:51:47]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14RoyAwesome thought so
  1070. [14:51:50] 5[14:51:50]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14Mcedu has something like 200 modified + added files and external software does some changes to how it works, so we can't really too go into the API. Big mods like this will probably still live over the API.
  1071. 09[14:51:54] * McAndze ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1072. [14:51:57] 5[14:51:57]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14as said, internet has been dead all day
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  1077. [14:52:08] 5[14:52:08]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14Also, you can't even change water fog color without editing the entityrenderer
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  1080. [14:52:24] 5[14:52:24]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14Cojo: <@Grum> medsouz: we are rewriting the rendering engine soon
  1081. 09[14:52:25] * eris_ ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1082. [14:52:32] 5[14:52:32]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Cojo: and that should just be a property of the world (perhaps per player)
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  1085. [14:52:41] 5[14:52:41]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14we think the API is going to be awesome, for the community, for the developers and for us. If we can avoid people having to update their plugins every single update and we can avoid people running into conflicts, I really feel like it would benefit everyone :)
  1086. [14:52:41] 5[14:52:41]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14saw
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  1090. [14:52:44] 5[14:52:44]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14Grum: It would be a property of the material itself
  1091. [14:52:45] 5[14:52:45]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Then the ideal solution is not to allow overriding the entity render, but make it flexible enough to support these modifications with the API.
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  1093. [14:52:50] 5[14:52:50]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14UltraMoogleMan: yeah or of the skybox
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  1095. [14:52:58] 5[14:52:58]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14Grum: The block has a material that sets the fog uniform in the fragment shader
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  1098. [14:53:03] 5[14:53:03]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14TkTech: yes that is the idea
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  1100. [14:53:14] 5[14:53:14]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14but i'd really like to see API cover almost every case of a mod that people create nowadays :)
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  1104. [14:53:25] 5[14:53:25]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Kulttuuri, that's largely impossible
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  1108. [14:53:33] 5[14:53:33]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Kulttuuri: well, lets put our heads together; write up the requirements and then define an API that can do it
  1109. [14:53:40] 5[14:53:40]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14that is why we are here
  1110. [14:53:49] 5[14:53:49]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14Kulttuuri, talk to me in PM after this discussion ;)
  1111. [14:53:50] 5[14:53:50]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14it's a great goal to have, but I don't believe we can reach that point - there are some sacrifices we are going to have to make
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  1113. [14:53:52] 5[14:53:52]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Wouldn't it be interesting if you could set fog colours by a method, so (for example) you could have fog colour by biome?
  1114. 09[14:53:52] * marktech_ ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1115. [14:53:53] 5[14:53:53]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14So Grum can we start on that?
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  1117. [14:53:59] 5[14:53:59]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14Grum: yep! will do :)
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  1119. [14:54:05] 5[14:54:05]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14ShaRose: Yes, that's trivial to do
  1120. 09[14:54:06] * Tanaldion ([email protected]) has left #minecraftdev
  1121. [14:54:08] 5[14:54:08]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Of course not using the API is going to be very painful from what you've said
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  1125. [14:54:12] 5[14:54:12]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14ShaRose: perhaps; if you can set it per player or area or state or whatever :/
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  1127. [14:54:17] 5[14:54:17]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Jarvix, that's the plan and the next step in this initiative :)
  1128. 09[14:54:18] * Kitzune ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1129. [14:54:21] 5[14:54:21]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14its just a property of the view of the player
  1130. [14:54:21] 5[14:54:21]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14yeah, make it a method
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  1140. [14:54:48] 5[14:54:48]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14EvilSeph: Is that a role of the developer hub we referred to earlier? To collect a list of desired supported features?
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  1144. [14:54:50] 5[14:54:50]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14hesitated to specifically say that because I didn't know how much lag it'd generate
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  1150. [14:55:12] 5[14:55:12]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14There's no reason why fog color couldn't be abstracted to be per-biome
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  1153. [14:55:20] 5[14:55:20]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14Even in the current renderer, let alone a re-written one
  1154. [14:55:26] 5[14:55:26]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14It would take about 10 lines of code, tops
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  1160. [14:55:50] 5[14:55:50]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14Well cool
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  1163. [14:56:06] 5[14:56:06]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14I was thinking it could be abstracted to a specific method for it, so that you could use anything from the player's position, to the biome, to if that player has some item equipped, etc
  1164. [14:56:09] 5[14:56:09]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Xie, that's something we'd like to discuss - I'd like to hear ideas people have on how we can best go about doing that
  1165. [14:56:13] 5[14:56:13]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14Yes, exactly
  1166. [14:56:17] 5[14:56:17]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14we have a few optons
  1167. 09[14:56:18] * zbegra ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1168. [14:56:22] 5[14:56:22]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14the HUB but that's probably far off
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  1173. [14:56:36] 5[14:56:36]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14So; to clear something up; the intention is that the client *only* sends input (what direction buttons its holding, which action ones, what element in the gui was just clicked on etc); so no more 'oh i moved to X,Y,Z
  1174. [14:56:39] 5[14:56:39]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14speaking of item equips, has anyone asked about how easy / hard it would be to add third party item slots?
  1175. 09[14:56:41] * Miss_Kat ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1176. [14:56:42] 5[14:56:42]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14we can also utilise the Mojang Issue Tracker I am working on to field API suggestions
  1177. [14:56:58] 5[14:56:58]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Grum that sounds much better anyways
  1178. [14:56:59] 5[14:56:59]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14deltas
  1179. [14:57:02] 5[14:57:02]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14we have a few options - what are your thoughts? :)
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  1182. [14:57:09] 5[14:57:09]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Risugami: no deltas
  1183. [14:57:14] 5[14:57:14]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14ShaRose: It'd be trivial even in the current code, would just need a hook to add on item slots in groups and add an associated UI element
  1184. [14:57:15] 5[14:57:15]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14send: 'oh i was holding forward'
  1185. [14:57:15] 5[14:57:15]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14EvilSeph: are they the only options?
  1186. [14:57:20] 5[14:57:20]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Grum I think he means deltas of the state
  1187. [14:57:26] 5[14:57:26]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14So we can call the new client a Thin Client.
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  1190. [14:57:30] 5[14:57:30]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14yes as a state
  1191. [14:57:35] 5[14:57:35]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14yeah that is possible indeed ShaRose / Risugami
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  1193. [14:57:42] 5[14:57:42]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14ok, to get back from "very detailed technical things" to something more general, how would modding the look of something work, not just textures (easy), but for example: "i want to make custom cows with guns mounted to their heads" - mods are on server, rendering happens on client
  1194. [14:57:44] 5[14:57:44]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14but the moving buttons are a single 6 bits
  1195. [14:57:48] 5[14:57:48]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Snowl, those are some of the ideas I have for moving forward
  1196. 12[14:57:49] * Daan ([email protected]) Quit
  1197. [14:57:50] 5[14:57:50]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14Jarvix: Yes
  1198. [14:58:03] 5[14:58:03]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Grum depends on if you do just the 6 or all buttons
  1199. [14:58:08] 5[14:58:08]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Sounds fine, I am just a BIT afraid for lag.
  1200. [14:58:11] 5[14:58:11]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14I've been looking into services we could utilise, but I haven't come across one that would really help us out with this
  1201. 09[14:58:11] * FelixJ20000 ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1202. [14:58:12] 5[14:58:12]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14which could be nice for mods
  1203. [14:58:14] 5[14:58:14]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14cows with guns mounted on their heads
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  1205. [14:58:18] 5[14:58:18]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14that sounds awesome
  1206. [14:58:18] 5[14:58:18]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Searge: the server would tell the client that it needs the cow/gun assets and it would find them on the repo
  1207. [14:58:20] 5[14:58:20]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14Searge: "I want to make custom cows with guns mounted to their heads" is really quite trivial, any modified models are sent in binary form to the client on connect
  1208. [14:58:20] 5[14:58:20]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14if you have any suggestions, I'd love to hear them :)
  1209. [14:58:26] 5[14:58:26]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Searge: then simply tell the client when/where to render the entity
  1210. [14:58:27] 5[14:58:27]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14And/or obtained from repo
  1211. 12[14:58:42] * Fexlom ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
  1212. [14:58:43] 5[14:58:43]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14I'll be spearheading our promise to involve the community in the development process
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  1214. [14:58:46] 5[14:58:46]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14imagine a server mod that hooks it so when you press (say) the h key it pops up with a context aware help menu
  1215. 09[14:58:48] * Reecedog ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1216. [14:58:48] 5[14:58:48]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Jarvix: Are you going to keep jumping from one concern to another? :) Take some time, think up all of them, and then say it :D
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  1218. [14:58:51] 5[14:58:51]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14another thing; we intend to change the models to *NOT* be code anymore
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  1223. [14:58:57] 5[14:58:57]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14thank god for that
  1224. [14:59:01] 5[14:59:01]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Searge: That would be resolved by a more flexible model system.
  1225. 09[14:59:02] * Swamp ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1226. [14:59:03] 5[14:59:03]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14ok, so basically models are moved from hardcoded to some kind of model format
  1227. [14:59:03] 5[14:59:03]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Amaranth hehe, ok.
  1228. [14:59:04] 5[14:59:04]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14so please let me know if you have any ideas about how to best go about collecting and organising all the information
  1229. 09[14:59:10] * Garbanas ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
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  1231. [14:59:26] 5[14:59:26]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14EvilSeph: Would a forum be adequate?
  1232. 09[14:59:27] * Dan_ ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1233. [14:59:35] 5[14:59:35]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14so you will have a file that represents the model, texture coords and the texture; the model should also contain the 'animations' that are static
  1234. [14:59:39] 5[14:59:39]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14ít would be nice to have a hub with wiki/suggestions/forum so developers can help out each other and have some way of affrecting the api without needing to mod it, kind of like bukkit with xenforo and redmine
  1235. [14:59:39] 5[14:59:39]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14like walking, hitting, whatever is needed
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  1238. [14:59:50] 5[14:59:50]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14that's an idea that I'm considering
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  1244. [14:59:58] 5[14:59:58]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14I would probably want it separate from the Minecraft Forum
  1245. [15:00:02] 5[15:00:02]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14to reduce the noise
  1246. [15:00:03] 5[15:00:03]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14you can opt for sending extra animations to the client for a model, or stream the raw data if you want to
  1247. [15:00:05] 5[15:00:05]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Makes sense
  1248. [15:00:06] 5[15:00:06]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14this should give you full control
  1249. [15:00:19] 5[15:00:19]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14I want us all to get as much out of the resources we put out as possible.
  1250. [15:00:21] 5[15:00:21]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14the model addition sounds good.
  1251. [15:00:26] 5[15:00:26]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14also; many of the visual effects created right now can be created by simply making a model (think of a sprite model for some particle effects)
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  1256. [15:01:03] 5[15:01:03]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14Maybe a certain part of minecraft.net (dev.minecraft.net) for these resources?
  1257. [15:01:05] 5[15:01:05]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14and I assume blocks will also be models in the future?
  1258. [15:01:15] 5[15:01:15]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14that would be cool
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  1261. [15:01:29] 5[15:01:29]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14dev.minecraft.net
  1262. [15:01:33] 5[15:01:33]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14that seems smart
  1263. [15:01:34] 5[15:01:34]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Searge: yes; we need to split blocks in their meshes/collission meshes and textues (+UV corods)
  1264. [15:01:34] 4[15:01:34] Nick Alert From Channel: #minecraftdev
  1265. [15:01:40] 5[15:01:40]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14model loading is useful... i've been using a model loader in RP for a while now.
  1266. [15:01:48] 5[15:01:48]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14hard-coded models are a pain.
  1267. 09[15:01:50] * BastetFur ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1268. [15:01:51] 5[15:01:51]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14yes!
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  1271. [15:01:54] 5[15:01:54]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14i do agree on dev.minecraft.net.
  1272. 12[15:01:55] * developr ([email protected]) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  1273. [15:01:55] 5[15:01:55]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14That could work, have forums for technical discussions, even chatrooms etc?
  1274. [15:01:56] 5[15:01:56]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14but for some things you need procedural animations
  1275. [15:02:00] 5[15:02:00]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14like where someone is looking at
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  1278. [15:02:09] 5[15:02:09]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14How would water work as a model?
  1279. [15:02:09] 5[15:02:09]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14true.
  1280. [15:02:13] 5[15:02:13]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14Eloraam, yeah, even with tools like techne, it still generates code in the end
  1281. [15:02:16] 5[15:02:16]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14but that can be done in the way i just described =)
  1282. 12[15:02:19] * Nickshelton80 ([email protected]) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  1283. [15:02:20] 5[15:02:20]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Honestly..the web team is probably going to kill me since all of this means more work for them :P
  1284. [15:02:20] 5[15:02:20]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14Oop, lights dimmed
  1285. [15:02:21] 5[15:02:21]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14EvilSeph: Are you interested in having a third party run it (such as the current wiki and forum) or will Mojang maintain, develop, and moderate it?
  1286. [15:02:23] 5[15:02:23]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14C'mon baby, stay with me
  1287. 12[15:02:31] * Hammie ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  1288. [15:02:39] 5[15:02:39]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Would you want to limit those who can register somehow, or just heavily moderate dev.mineraft.net? (As it shall be referred to henceforth :P)
  1289. [15:02:42] 5[15:02:42]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14I want something official. I want Mojang to seriously support the developers in the community.
  1290. [15:02:44] 5[15:02:44]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14ok; is there anyone extremely unsatisfied right now?
  1291. 09[15:02:45] * Fractureskull ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1292. 09[15:02:47] * Danny ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1293. [15:02:50] 5[15:02:50]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14if so; explain why please :)
  1294. 12[15:03:02] * darkhax ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 190 seconds)
  1295. [15:03:03] 5[15:03:03]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14(besides that we didnt touch the API contents yet)
  1296. 09[15:03:04] * Ribesg ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1297. 12[15:03:05] * crazilon ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
  1298. [15:03:05] 5[15:03:05]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14But we could always consider having a third party run it, too.
  1299. 12[15:03:06] * Saiko ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
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  1301. [15:03:11] 5[15:03:11]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14Grum: this coffee is cold :(
  1302. [15:03:26] 5[15:03:26]15->>2| 15Grum sends some heat (enough here! :'()2 |
  1303. [15:03:27] 5[15:03:27]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14I'm half afraid to ask half of the questions I came up with because I don't know if they were asked / answered already :(
  1304. [15:03:27] 5[15:03:27]15->>2| 15Afforess demands a refund2 |
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  1308. [15:03:32] 5[15:03:32]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14Grum, not right now, ask me again when I saw some api implementations from you guys :p
  1309. [15:03:33] 5[15:03:33]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Grum I think we talk too much about details.
  1310. 09[15:03:36] * igo ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1311. [15:03:36] 5[15:03:36]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14ShaRose: shoot
  1312. 09[15:03:38] * Danny_ ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1313. [15:03:49] 5[15:03:49]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Jarvix: we need to cover some things that are new so people can have a canvas to hold their ideas against
  1314. [15:03:52] 5[15:03:52]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14welcome ShaRose :)
  1315. [15:04:01] 5[15:04:01]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14shoving them on pastebin since it'll spam too much :V
  1316. 09[15:04:04] * blaghiam ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1317. [15:04:17] 5[15:04:17]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14EvilSeph got on like... 15 minutes ago D:
  1318. [15:04:28] 5[15:04:28]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14EvilSeph: a offical place to hang out for devs would be pretty swet (although resources and developement time is a cinsideration)
  1319. 09[15:04:32] * VanDer ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1320. [15:04:43] 5[15:04:43]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14This channel isn't official enough? :)
  1321. 12[15:04:44] * leahmags ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
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  1323. [15:04:50] 5[15:04:50]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14So while we wait on that; I think we should discuss whihc areas need to be covered with an API
  1324. [15:04:50] 5[15:04:50]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14http://pastebin.com/LSPFXS6F buttloads of questions that may or may not have been answered ahead etc
  1325. 12[15:04:52] * primerthanyou ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
  1326. [15:04:58] 5[15:04:58]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Vote for not IRC :P
  1327. 09[15:05:07] * Fractureskull_ ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1328. [15:05:09] 5[15:05:09]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14ShaRose: many of those are indepth
  1329. [15:05:13] 5[15:05:13]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14yeah
  1330. [15:05:17] 5[15:05:17]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14I vote for anything but forums :D
  1331. [15:05:18] 5[15:05:18]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14I think mollstam and related can do a very good job on making this community website, possibly with mojang account integration.
  1332. 09[15:05:21] * curious ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1333. [15:05:21] 5[15:05:21]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14A mailing list would be ok
  1334. [15:05:23] 5[15:05:23]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14IRC is useful, I think it'd be a nice thing to utilise alongside other resources
  1335. [15:05:30] 5[15:05:30]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14just to clarify, will most of the logic be on the server? as far as issuing animations and what not?
  1336. 09[15:05:33] * Zenithik ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1337. [15:05:35] 5[15:05:35]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14sk89q: ideally all
  1338. 12[15:05:43] * CiderCraft ([email protected]) Quit
  1339. [15:05:51] 5[15:05:51]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14we want to make the cient as dumb as we can possibly get it
  1340. [15:05:52] 5[15:05:52]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14EvilSeph: Yeah, IRC has its place
  1341. [15:05:54] 5[15:05:54]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14or will client potions also allow substantial logic
  1342. [15:05:55] 5[15:05:55]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14client*
  1343. [15:05:59] 5[15:05:59]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14in some cases this cannot be done; but ideally have as little code on the client
  1344. 12[15:06:08] * Danny ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  1345. [15:06:08] 5[15:06:08]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14sk89q: logic like?
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  1348. [15:06:16] 5[15:06:16]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14EvilSeph: As for your request for input, we've been running the dev channel and wiki for a few years now. From past experience, we've found that a wiki with a trusted editor group for the documentation and using IRC and/or a forum for discussion on editing the wiki as a staging site for ideas to work well.
  1349. 09[15:06:16] * pridgeon2000 ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
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  1352. [15:06:31] 5[15:06:31]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14EvilSeph: Otherwise, despite best efforts, incorrect information often ends up working its way into the wiki.
  1353. [15:06:42] 5[15:06:42]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14EvilSeph: how about copying some models out of stackoverflow into the dev sites, that site is pretty darn good for any questions & additional resources, you could even ask for Minecraft modding section in it? :)
  1354. 12[15:06:47] * Tommyten ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
  1355. [15:06:51] 5[15:06:51]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14TkTech: so maybe we can 'chat' on irc; then work out some details on the wiki and from there do an API suggestion in the way of a pullrequest
  1356. 12[15:06:53] * Adikso ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
  1357. [15:06:54] 5[15:06:54]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Grum did you guys discuss the 'tweak' style mods yet?
  1358. 09[15:06:56] * Tahu136 ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1359. [15:07:05] 5[15:07:05]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: Exactly.
  1360. [15:07:05] 5[15:07:05]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14ShaRose: yes and should be doable with an api
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  1365. [15:07:15] 5[15:07:15]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14ShaRose yeah, they were going to do modular stuff with mc
  1366. 09[15:07:17] * foodoo ([email protected]) has left #minecraftdev
  1367. [15:07:17] 5[15:07:17]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14will Instrumentation be usable? would be tough to get it working right with plugins however
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  1370. [15:07:25] 5[15:07:25]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14I have a query regarding access control for the plugin repository - do you want to control who/how/when contributions are made, or have any sort of quality control?
  1371. [15:07:27] 5[15:07:27]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14TkTech, just an idea: but I was thinking we could gather input from other sources and have a team keep the official documentation up to date
  1372. [15:07:28] 5[15:07:28]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Risugami: instrumentation in which way?
  1373. [15:07:32] 5[15:07:32]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14Grum: how would the current packet structure be modified for this change? pluguins shouldnt modify or create packets
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  1382. [15:08:03] 5[15:08:03]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Risugami: Would be nice if the server did instrumentation for you so it can tell for example what plugin is hogging your CPU
  1383. [15:08:09] 5[15:08:09]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Xie: quality control is going to next to impossible, we will have to look into that; this goes hand in hand with liabilities that mojang laywers have to decide on :P
  1384. [15:08:11] 5[15:08:11]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14have 3rd party initiatives act as curators, perhaps?
  1385. [15:08:11] 5[15:08:11]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14being able to plug into base classes
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  1389. [15:08:22] 5[15:08:22]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14the issue I bring up is that if the server deals with the logic, for complex series of actions (like extremely complex animations dependent on a lot of factors), having the server issue the commands means a considerably more amount of bandwidth usage
  1390. 12[15:08:22] * ohsin ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
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  1392. [15:08:25] 5[15:08:25]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Grum probably like either detailed statistics on method calls and such (aka profiling) and or runtime bytecode editing
  1393. [15:08:27] 5[15:08:27]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14as opposed to a simple "start x" command
  1394. [15:08:28] 5[15:08:28]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Just an idea I am kicking around.
  1395. [15:08:40] 5[15:08:40]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14like how eclipse can replace method bodies and such
  1396. 12[15:08:43] * Sendow ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  1397. [15:08:46] 5[15:08:46]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14EvilSeph: but i'd really like to see everything related to minecraft modding focused into one site.
  1398. [15:08:48] 5[15:08:48]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Grum: Agreed, I have further queries regarding licensing... perhaps later though ^_^
  1399. 12[15:08:48] * Bo98 ([email protected]) Quit (Client Quit)
  1400. [15:08:56] 5[15:08:56]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14EvilSeph: That would be ideal from both a community interaction and simple mechanics of scale point of view.
  1401. [15:08:57] 5[15:08:57]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14sk89q: not if the animations are known and you can just 'play them' while telling the 'entity' where it should go meanwhile
  1402. 12[15:09:00] * EXTER ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
  1403. [15:09:10] 5[15:09:10]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14animations are one example
  1404. 09[15:09:10] * defimeyshun ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1405. [15:09:12] 5[15:09:12]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14ShaRose: erm you can use your own profiler
  1406. [15:09:21] 5[15:09:21]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14EvilSeph: Mojang will never have enough man power to keep everything up to date the same way thousands of hobby users can.
  1407. 09[15:09:22] * Capruce ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1408. [15:09:28] 5[15:09:28]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14there are many other possibilities of things that the client may have to process at a future time on its owna ccord
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  1412. [15:09:47] 5[15:09:47]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Snowl: in theory packet250 should suffice but we might need to discuss if it needs changing/expanding later
  1413. [15:09:47] 5[15:09:47]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Risugami: I'm not sure what you mean about plugging in to base classes
  1414. 12[15:09:47] * KILL3RTACO ([email protected]) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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  1417. [15:09:56] 5[15:09:56]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Risugami: The whole point is to not do that at all
  1418. 09[15:09:56] * aufdemrand ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1419. [15:09:59] 5[15:09:59]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14Grum: sounds good
  1420. [15:10:04] 5[15:10:04]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14I know, I obviously want to utilise the strength of the community as much as we can but I also want something official
  1421. 12[15:10:08] * Swamp ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
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  1427. [15:10:36] 5[15:10:36]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14on animations, I don't mind having the client know all the animations beforehand (perhaps with the server being able to send more as it goes on in a specific format), and just send play animation 'roll' with optional animation defined extra data
  1428. 12[15:10:47] * gluszak ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
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  1430. [15:10:50] 5[15:10:50]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14EvilSeph: You can, of course. This is the point of separating who can edit the actual specification documentation from the discussion.
  1431. [15:10:50] 5[15:10:50]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14all of this is up for discussion and consideration though, so please keep the ideas coming :)
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  1435. [15:11:03] 5[15:11:03]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14OK my big question: has there been any thought about support for custom content being added at runtime from parsed text files rather than hard-coded .jars?
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  1438. [15:11:12] 5[15:11:12]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14EvilSeph: A mojang team is the only one who can make the final commit to the official documentation.
  1439. [15:11:25] 5[15:11:25]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14(i.e. what my mod does :P)
  1440. 09[15:11:27] * darkhax ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1441. [15:11:28] 5[15:11:28]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14For example: I am hoping to provide an official Mojang Issue Tracker that will be run by the community but provided by us
  1442. [15:11:31] 5[15:11:31]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14EvilSeph: The request for changes comes from IRC discussion, forum discussion, wiki page discussion, or temporary pages in other wiki namespaces.
  1443. [15:11:37] 5[15:11:37]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14yeah, I agree with Xie that could be a very powerful idea
  1444. [15:11:40] 5[15:11:40]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Xie there has been talk on downloadable content from the server
  1445. [15:11:41] 5[15:11:41]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14TkTech: this would be javadocs yes
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  1448. [15:12:02] 5[15:12:02]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14xie
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  1451. [15:12:06] 5[15:12:06]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Xie: I suspect that is something your plugin would still do
  1452. [15:12:10] 5[15:12:10]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14have you looked at the modbridge project?
  1453. 12[15:12:16] * Niels ([email protected]) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  1454. [15:12:19] 5[15:12:19]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14another kind of mod that will need client modifications is camera mods - popular by filmmakers (if they so not using mp players as camera)
  1455. 12[15:12:20] * garyclosse ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  1456. [15:12:22] 5[15:12:22]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14You read your text file format and generate models which are then sent to the client
  1457. [15:12:25] 5[15:12:25]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14you can add/enable/disable mods on the fly
  1458. [15:12:26] 5[15:12:26]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14so yes, I am not against working closely with the community but to what extent remains to be seen
  1459. [15:12:27] 5[15:12:27]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Xie: you cannot do nearly enough with 'just jars' -- data driven modding is extremely limited -- you can however make a plugin that supports it
  1460. [15:12:34] 5[15:12:34]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14erm sorr -- with just 'data'
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  1468. [15:13:08] 5[15:13:08]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Amaranth: At the same time the API must still allow models to be modified dynamically and streamed to the clients.
  1469. 12[15:13:08] * piperwillow ([email protected]) Quit
  1470. [15:13:14] 5[15:13:14]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Searge: we can actually do it better; as the current client looks like; we might be able to record the stream and replay it as a 'recording'
  1471. 09[15:13:18] * stahscream ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1472. [15:13:19] 5[15:13:19]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14I'm not concerned about my mod being made redundant, at all, for the record... I just think it's a great feature
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  1475. [15:13:26] 5[15:13:26]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14(the current idea for the new client)
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  1478. [15:13:30] 5[15:13:30]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14Are the plugins only server-side?
  1479. 09[15:13:35] * AntarianoPC (~Antariano@2a01:4f8:161:1e2::3) has joined #minecraftdev
  1480. [15:13:37] 5[15:13:37]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14yes
  1481. [15:13:37] 5[15:13:37]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14DV8FromTheWorld there's no magical support for enabling / disabling mods runtime, and afaik mojang wants to be able to do that anyways to disable mods the server doesn't want
  1482. [15:13:39] 5[15:13:39]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14Grum, you definitely saw too much quake code :p
  1483. [15:13:43] 5[15:13:43]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14I am not sure models should be able to be dyn. modified and streamed.
  1484. [15:13:48] 5[15:13:48]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Cojo: Single-player /is/ a server, just run locally.
  1485. [15:13:53] 5[15:13:53]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14What is the use of that?
  1486. [15:13:53] 5[15:13:53]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14How would something like a mini-map work then?
  1487. 09[15:13:53] * Cysioland ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
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  1492. [15:13:59] 5[15:13:59]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Cojo: There is no distinction between the two as far as a plugin is concerned.
  1493. [15:14:00] 5[15:14:00]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14if someone on a server wants to have a mini map but not all users
  1494. [15:14:01] 5[15:14:01]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14ShaRose, there is for modbridge..
  1495. [15:14:03] 5[15:14:03]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Grum: While I don't disagree with you, there is still a great deal you can do with data-driven modding ^_^
  1496. [15:14:04] 5[15:14:04]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Cojo: that depends on what is needed; if we end up needing code @ client then we have to see how to do it
  1497. [15:14:04] 5[15:14:04]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14it already exists.
  1498. 09[15:14:06] * Pingumask ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
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  1500. [15:14:08] 5[15:14:08]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14we've merged the client and the server in the snapshots
  1501. 12[15:14:09] * ttaylorr ([email protected]) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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  1503. [15:14:12] 5[15:14:12]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Xie: yes so please make the plugin :D
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  1509. [15:14:45] 5[15:14:45]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14DV8FromTheWorld you can't magically do it. You can support doing it for some things: Blocks and Items can be logged to which mod created them: But some things can't be magically flicked off
  1510. 09[15:14:48] * Niels ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
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  1513. [15:15:09] 5[15:15:09]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14So I understand they are server-side but what if not everybody on the server wants to use the plugin, would they be able to disable it client-side?
  1514. [15:15:10] 5[15:15:10]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Grum: I was hoping for it to be included in the API, but of course if it isn't I will
  1515. [15:15:11] 5[15:15:11]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14im not saying "in-game", like in the map
  1516. [15:15:15] 5[15:15:15]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14MCP will very soon have another snapshot update, so every modder can see (and prepare their mods for) the changes mojang already did for 1.3
  1517. [15:15:24] 5[15:15:24]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14im saying the can be enabled and disabled without closing the client.
  1518. 09[15:15:24] * Cysioland ([email protected]) has left #minecraftdev
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  1520. [15:15:30] 5[15:15:30]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14I'd not be surprised to see some mods take days to update this time
  1521. 09[15:15:44] * StormBeforeDawn ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1522. [15:16:04] 5[15:16:04]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14yes; the changes 1.3 will bring will have a huge impact
  1523. [15:16:08] 5[15:16:08]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14sadly they are really needed
  1524. 09[15:16:15] * Rokkk ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1525. [15:16:17] 5[15:16:17]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Agreed
  1526. [15:16:21] 5[15:16:21]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14Searge: we might need bit more than few days then... :)
  1527. [15:16:22] 5[15:16:22]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14And big changes wil happen again
  1528. [15:16:23] 5[15:16:23]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Cojo, yes but the server will probably stop you from getting on
  1529. 09[15:16:26] * Chanku_ ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1530. [15:16:28] 5[15:16:28]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Luckily though with the introduction of the API they should be able to survive the updates :D
  1531. [15:16:35] 5[15:16:35]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14yes; that is the idea
  1532. [15:16:37] 5[15:16:37]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14:/
  1533. 09[15:16:38] * Hris ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1534. [15:16:39] 5[15:16:39]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14Grum, it took us almost a week of work to update this time - and we have more and better tools and support than we could dream of
  1535. 12[15:16:40] * HunterDKS ([email protected]) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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  1538. [15:16:46] 5[15:16:46]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14So there will need to be the option for client-side APIs then
  1539. 09[15:16:47] * HunterDKS ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1540. 12[15:16:48] * HunterDKS ([email protected]) Quit (Client Quit)
  1541. [15:16:49] 5[15:16:49]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14yeah sorry :'(
  1542. 09[15:16:50] * HunterDKS ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1543. [15:16:58] 5[15:16:58]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Cojo: it is completely possible that we need to add a clientsided API yes
  1544. 12[15:16:59] * iamboring ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
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  1548. [15:17:07] 5[15:17:07]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14it will depend on what is needed to get thing swork
  1549. 09[15:17:08] * theudis ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1550. [15:17:09] 5[15:17:09]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Searge, Amaranth knows your pain ;)
  1551. 09[15:17:10] * bob is now known as Guest66619
  1552. [15:17:10] 5[15:17:10]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14I assume we will have proper version control
  1553. 12[15:17:16] * Danny_ ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
  1554. [15:17:28] 5[15:17:28]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Risugami: github + versioned jarfiles; probably dumped into a maven repo
  1555. 12[15:17:29] * gazlik ([email protected]) Quit (Client Quit)
  1556. [15:17:29] 5[15:17:29]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14<GenuineSounds> Perhaps a simple list of plugins REQUIRED by the server, they cannot be disabled and others that are optional and downloaded with a prompt.
  1557. 12[15:17:31] * ComicRetrolution ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 380 seconds)
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  1559. [15:17:38] 5[15:17:38]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14actually, EvilSeph, we did not have so much fun working on mcp in months ! :)
  1560. 12[15:17:39] * orgest ([email protected]) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  1561. [15:17:43] 5[15:17:43]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14with version being saved with world and the like
  1562. 12[15:17:45] * Gabscap ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
  1563. [15:17:55] 5[15:17:55]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Risugami: we'll have to see what is required for it
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  1566. [15:17:57] 5[15:17:57]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14medsouz, yes, but it would be forced in that you have to have it to be on the server, not you can't disable it
  1567. [15:17:59] 5[15:17:59]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14if that is the case; yes :)
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  1570. [15:18:16] 5[15:18:16]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14so a mod could possibly disable features on older versions
  1571. 09[15:18:16] * gazlik ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1572. [15:18:32] 5[15:18:32]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14OK so a question related to run-time data-driven content - will there be any changes to the way mobs are implemented to make it easier to create them at runtime dynamically?
  1573. 09[15:18:33] * Zeerix ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1574. 12[15:18:35] * jhamm ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
  1575. [15:18:36] 5[15:18:36]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14or have a world demand a particular minimum mod-version to run
  1576. [15:18:39] 5[15:18:39]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Searge: There is the difference, you do MCP for fun. I do mc-dev so I can do CraftBukkit :P
  1577. [15:18:45] 5[15:18:45]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Xie: yes
  1578. [15:18:51] 5[15:18:51]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14that's the idea
  1579. [15:18:58] 5[15:18:58]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14that's another huge topic - future compatibility in the api ..?
  1580. 12[15:19:03] * macer7 ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
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  1582. [15:19:13] 5[15:19:13]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14well ideally we do not do backwards incompatible changes
  1583. [15:19:13] 5[15:19:13]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14what do you mean by that, Searge?
  1584. [15:19:17] 5[15:19:17]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Grum: OK. That was easy!
  1585. 09[15:19:26] * Sendow ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
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  1587. [15:19:31] 5[15:19:31]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Xie: should be as easy as saying what you want to spawn where
  1588. [15:19:37] 5[15:19:37]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14EvilSeph, what everyone wants - run 1.0 mods in version 8.17 without changes :)
  1589. 12[15:19:45] * Shipz ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
  1590. [15:19:54] 5[15:19:54]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Searge: this all depends on how many mistakes we collectively make in the API
  1591. [15:19:55] 5[15:19:55]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14We obviously hope to achieve that
  1592. [15:19:56] 5[15:19:56]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Allowing client side mods that the user can select themselves that dont effect gameplay is required for some mods like mine
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  1595. [15:20:02] 5[15:20:02]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14but it's not something we can promise
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  1599. [15:20:14] 5[15:20:14]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14medsouz: What does your mod do?
  1600. 09[15:20:19] * Pawnee ([email protected]) has left #minecraftdev
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  1604. [15:20:28] 5[15:20:28]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14for example, my mod is designed to help you find what server your friends are on so it shouldnt only work when you go on a server that supports it
  1605. [15:20:33] 5[15:20:33]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Amaranth: its a friends list mod
  1606. 12[15:20:36] * sp614x ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  1607. [15:20:39] 5[15:20:39]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14oh
  1608. [15:20:42] 5[15:20:42]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14we'll do whatever we can to avoid it (this is why we're working closely with the community to shape the API from the beginning), but we will not hesitate to break things (properly with deprecation and so on) if it is for the better
  1609. [15:20:57] 5[15:20:57]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14I feel like a client-side API is required for some things
  1610. 12[15:20:58] * TonyWORK ([email protected]) Quit
  1611. [15:21:03] 5[15:21:03]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14Amaranth, so what you said 2 minutes ago is: "bukkit dev is no fun" ? :p
  1612. [15:21:05] 5[15:21:05]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14I don't think anyone could expect anything more or less in that regard
  1613. [15:21:07] 5[15:21:07]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14Like medsouz's mod etc
  1614. [15:21:14] 5[15:21:14]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14I agree that a clientside api should be there
  1615. 12[15:21:22] * Rokkk ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
  1616. [15:21:22] 5[15:21:22]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Searge: mc-dev is no fun, CraftBukkit still is :P
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  1619. [15:21:28] 5[15:21:28]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14hehe
  1620. [15:21:29] 5[15:21:29]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14yes; i think this just decided that we need some clientside stuff
  1621. 09[15:21:34] * sp614x ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
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  1623. [15:21:49] 5[15:21:49]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14medsouz: That's an awesome mod, wish vanilla had that functionaliy
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  1627. [15:21:55] 5[15:21:55]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14one thing that could be nice is having 'categories' of plugins such as minimap, ingameinfo, etc that the server can optionally blacklist
  1628. 09[15:22:03] * Crusader ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1629. [15:22:06] 5[15:22:06]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14this also might mean we should split up a plugin into 3 parts; assets, servercode and possible client code
  1630. 09[15:22:09] * Wonderjunk ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1631. [15:22:10] 5[15:22:10]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14blacklist is definitely required
  1632. 09[15:22:13] * jyggz ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1633. [15:22:13] 5[15:22:13]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Xie: thank you, I'm actually rewriting it right now on my other monitor
  1634. [15:22:14] 5[15:22:14]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14for stuff like xray
  1635. [15:22:16] 5[15:22:16]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14yeah
  1636. [15:22:17] 5[15:22:17]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Or you can just use SpoutCraft? :P
  1637. [15:22:22] 5[15:22:22]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14:o
  1638. 12[15:22:23] * Het ([email protected]) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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  1640. [15:22:40] 5[15:22:40]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14actually, that's a fair point
  1641. 12[15:22:40] * squirt ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  1642. [15:22:41] 5[15:22:41]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14we are phasing out spoutcraft for our new engine
  1643. [15:22:42] 5[15:22:42]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14If i would write a minimap plugin, i would not present muself as a minimap plugin, to avoid the blacklist...
  1644. [15:22:48] 5[15:22:48]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14If the client is dumb enough, you don't have to worry about hacks like xray
  1645. [15:22:49] 5[15:22:49]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14which is very similar to this
  1646. 09[15:22:51] * Techy ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1647. 09[15:22:53] * theguynextdoor ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1648. [15:22:53] 5[15:22:53]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14;)
  1649. 12[15:22:57] * luacs1998 ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/)
  1650. [15:23:02] 5[15:23:02]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Jarvix yeah, but if you want to have it in the runtime client it'd have to be on the mod repo
  1651. [15:23:03] 5[15:23:03]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14So then the next question becomes, if everybody can make client plugins, how would it be possible to blacklist them all?
  1652. 09[15:23:07] * ac3xx_ ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1653. [15:23:08] 5[15:23:08]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Xie: You do, you always will. Nothing prevents the client from being modified.
  1654. [15:23:15] 5[15:23:15]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14and if it's on the mod repo it'd need to have the right flags
  1655. [15:23:16] 5[15:23:16]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14if the client is really so stupid, small and simple later (and all game code is on the server9 you could as well open the client code and allow users to rewrite or port it
  1656. [15:23:19] 5[15:23:19]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Cojo: people could just change the name or a few small things to bypass the blacklist
  1657. [15:23:24] 5[15:23:24]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Xie: And the server always sends all chunk data, even for blocks that are not visible.
  1658. 12[15:23:28] * jyggen ([email protected]) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  1659. [15:23:32] 5[15:23:32]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14tbh, if you are already not trusting the client
  1660. [15:23:35] 5[15:23:35]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14medsouz, that's what i'm thinking
  1661. [15:23:38] 5[15:23:38]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14ShaRose so the repo will be forced? No custom repos? Or custo repos would then need to be allowed by the server or client cant connect?
  1662. [15:23:39] 5[15:23:39]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14the problem is there is so many ways to do the exact same thing in java
  1663. [15:23:40] 5[15:23:40]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14TkTech: I was suggesting the client isn't given whole chunk data
  1664. 12[15:23:42] * lpchaon ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  1665. [15:23:44] 5[15:23:44]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14you could theoretically do server-ish stuff on the client and just not trust the results on the server
  1666. 12[15:23:49] * qman2014 ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Wub Wub Wub Wuuuubbbb...)
  1667. [15:23:51] 5[15:23:51]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14like, spawn an item on the client
  1668. [15:23:51] 5[15:23:51]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14which reminds me
  1669. [15:23:55] 5[15:23:55]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Xie: Believe it or not that's actually more costly.
  1670. [15:23:55] 5[15:23:55]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14and the server has no idea it exists
  1671. [15:24:00] 5[15:24:00]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14that would be a useful effect
  1672. [15:24:04] 5[15:24:04]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Xie: It's far cheaper CPU wise to send the entire chunk.
  1673. [15:24:05] 5[15:24:05]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14a shop plugin or something
  1674. [15:24:06] 5[15:24:06]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Grum were you sticking to your guns on 'only get mods from mojang's repo'?
  1675. 09[15:24:10] * manjiBoy ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1676. 12[15:24:11] * SirPsp ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
  1677. 12[15:24:13] * ElTrazz ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  1678. 12[15:24:13] * LimeByte ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  1679. [15:24:15] 5[15:24:15]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Xie: Otherwise ray tracing or another means has to be run to see what's actually visible to the player model.
  1680. 09[15:24:18] * lblackburn ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1681. [15:24:24] 5[15:24:24]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14TkTech: I'm happy to sacrifice performance for security, but obviously that's not my decision :P
  1682. [15:24:45] 5[15:24:45]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Xie: use a single core Celeron 900M then talk :)
  1683. [15:24:58] 5[15:24:58]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14We could allow thrid party repos. And a server can enforce a mojang repo or client cant join.?
  1684. 09[15:25:10] * _Neph_ ([email protected]) has left #minecraftdev
  1685. [15:25:13] 5[15:25:13]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14medsouz: Fair enough :P
  1686. [15:25:14] 5[15:25:14]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14Then again, people could stlil make client-side -mods- not plugins, and then the plugin system couldn't relaly block them
  1687. [15:25:15] 5[15:25:15]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14true, but the third party repo could cloak itself :V
  1688. 09[15:25:17] * _Neph_ ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1689. 12[15:25:17] * nullmatrix ([email protected]) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  1690. [15:25:17] 5[15:25:17]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14really*
  1691. [15:25:22] 5[15:25:22]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14ShaRose, that would be ideal, but we all know people will want to branch away from the official repo for whatever reason
  1692. [15:25:24] 5[15:25:24]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14ShaRose: initially that is probably wise; we will end up needing thirdparty stuff though
  1693. [15:25:27] 5[15:25:27]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14would need some form of trust on repo sources
  1694. [15:25:28] 5[15:25:28]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14that's always going to be a problem though
  1695. 09[15:25:30] * mike_ ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1696. 12[15:25:32] * jyggz ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 190 seconds)
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  1698. [15:25:41] 5[15:25:41]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Cojo: but the goal of this is to remove having to make mods instead of plugins
  1699. [15:25:41] 5[15:25:41]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Risugami:yeah and that isn't possible
  1700. [15:25:46] 5[15:25:46]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14so it will likely be we support third party stuff, it just won't be our initial goal
  1701. [15:25:51] 5[15:25:51]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Grum I actually included a question on that pastebin for flagging mods as 'private'
  1702. 12[15:25:55] * _Neph_ ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: leaving)
  1703. 12[15:25:58] * Shazz ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
  1704. 09[15:26:00] * TheLaughingMan ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1705. [15:26:04] 5[15:26:04]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14so you'd need to know the mod ID to get anything, possibly with a key
  1706. 12[15:26:05] * mantal ([email protected]) Quit
  1707. [15:26:06] 5[15:26:06]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14ok erm! I am not sure how to handle the following step; how should we discuss what is 'needed' for each API area?
  1708. [15:26:07] 5[15:26:07]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14medsouz, but people who want to use xray will use a mod to avoid the plugin security
  1709. [15:26:16] 5[15:26:16]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14many people do things currently without an api (mostly clientsided)
  1710. [15:26:18] 5[15:26:18]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Risugami: If 3rd party repos are implemented, it would probably be a system more along the lines of chromes permission system (trying to use an example most people will know)
  1711. [15:26:26] 5[15:26:26]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Anyone got any suggestions?
  1712. [15:26:41] 5[15:26:41]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14but jarofdoom did have a point, if you hashed the client to see if it had been modded, then you wouldn't need to worry about client-side hacks
  1713. [15:26:41] 5[15:26:41]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Risugami: Each plugin contains a manifest of permissions it's requesting in order to use those APIs, and the user is presented with this information before accepting it.
  1714. [15:26:44] 5[15:26:44]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14Grum: use evilsephs mojang issue tracker
  1715. 12[15:26:49] * Capruce ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  1716. [15:26:49] 5[15:26:49]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14TkTech, that's what I was thinking about too
  1717. 09[15:26:54] * _Neph_ ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1718. [15:26:58] 5[15:26:58]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Risugami: It's up to the user if they trust the mod and the its use of certain apis.
  1719. [15:26:58] 5[15:26:58]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14give an example of an area you want to ask about, we can discuss that Grum
  1720. 12[15:26:58] * Guest66619 ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
  1721. 12[15:27:03] * ricochet1k ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
  1722. [15:27:04] 5[15:27:04]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Blocks
  1723. 12[15:27:08] * mib_7izxuw ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
  1724. [15:27:09] 5[15:27:09]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14hmmm good idea actually
  1725. 12[15:27:15] * Kodek ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
  1726. 09[15:27:16] * SmashShock ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1727. [15:27:18] 5[15:27:18]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14or firefox and how they handle installing from non addons.mozilla sources
  1728. 12[15:27:29] * jjw123_Phone ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi)
  1729. [15:27:39] 5[15:27:39]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14If our plugins are hosted/controlled by Mojang via their repository, what access/control will be afforded to modders? Not asking you to answer now on the spot, just raising it as a concern.
  1730. [15:27:49] 5[15:27:49]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Xie: define control
  1731. 09[15:27:53] * Laremere ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1732. [15:27:53] 5[15:27:53]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14EvilSeph: I am not familiar with Firefox, how do they do it?
  1733. 09[15:27:53] * Molochnik ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1734. 09[15:27:54] * MacMarcus ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1735. [15:27:54] 5[15:27:54]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14you put files there
  1736. [15:28:01] 5[15:28:01]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14what are some of your specific concerns?
  1737. 09[15:28:18] * TheCryoknight ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1738. 12[15:28:26] * BobbyHill ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
  1739. [15:28:28] 5[15:28:28]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Grum: What rights will we have wrt access, modification, withdrawal of our content.
  1740. [15:28:36] 5[15:28:36]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14well, as you said earlier I think it'd be a good idea to have it so that blockIDs are replaced with a unique key (If we include third party repos maybe have like repo.id.name) so that they are pretty much guaranteed to be unique
  1741. 12[15:28:37] * orgest1 ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Bye)
  1742. 09[15:28:40] * Gabscap ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1743. [15:28:41] 5[15:28:41]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Xie: i assume full
  1744. 12[15:28:47] * asdfggggm ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
  1745. [15:28:48] 5[15:28:48]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14How would client plugin development work? At dev time, you don't want to put it in a repo.
  1746. [15:28:49] 5[15:28:49]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14<GenuineSounds> Access modifiers: A flag saying "This mod uses this feature" would allow ANY mod using that feature to be disabled by default, That way you don't have to blacklist specific plugins if you don't want to. <GenuineSounds> Aka, perworld restriction of features, like plugins that add entities.
  1747. 09[15:28:53] * Afforess is now known as Afforess|Bored_Away
  1748. [15:28:58] 5[15:28:58]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Grum: I assumed also, just wanted to get it out there. Cheers.
  1749. 09[15:29:01] * orgest ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1750. 09[15:29:05] * thaile4ever ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1751. [15:29:07] 5[15:29:07]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14medsouz / GenuineSounds I said that earlier
  1752. 12[15:29:10] * dev ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
  1753. [15:29:14] 5[15:29:14]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Xie: not the final word obviously, but not sure why we'd do it otherwise
  1754. 09[15:29:15] * swaygr ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1755. [15:29:18] 5[15:29:18]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14ShaRose: dont kill the messenger D:
  1756. [15:29:22] 5[15:29:22]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14but you could still mod the jar
  1757. [15:29:26] 5[15:29:26]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14I'm not, just saying
  1758. [15:29:32] 5[15:29:32]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14one of the things many modders would want to know is how they can make money from mods in the future - right now, if their mods do not change base classes, they can sell them without problem
  1759. 09[15:29:34] * WolfGang ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1760. [15:29:40] 5[15:29:40]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Grum: Ask your lawyers, I'm sure they could come up with some answers to that :P
  1761. [15:29:40] 5[15:29:40]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14yeah i heard that a lot
  1762. 12[15:29:44] * Crusader ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
  1763. [15:29:51] 5[15:29:51]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14i heard that many people harras their users with adfly
  1764. [15:29:56] 5[15:29:56]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14How will the EULA for the plugins work?
  1765. [15:29:59] 5[15:29:59]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14I dislike adfly :P
  1766. [15:30:02] 5[15:30:02]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Cojo: One of the first things a mod would do is make sure it always sends the vanilla hash
  1767. 09[15:30:04] * Adv ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1768. 09[15:30:06] * M477 ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1769. [15:30:12] 5[15:30:12]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14is anyone making any significant money from adfly? :)
  1770. 09[15:30:12] * dani_ ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1771. [15:30:16] 5[15:30:16]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Cojo: aka if you're trusting the client to verify the client something is broken in your head ;)
  1772. [15:30:18] 5[15:30:18]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14yeah
  1773. 09[15:30:19] * Rooftops ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1774. [15:30:19] 5[15:30:19]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14Amaranth, right, that's basically what i'm saying
  1775. [15:30:20] 5[15:30:20]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: Yes, thousands.
  1776. [15:30:20] 5[15:30:20]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Grum actually, yeah
  1777. [15:30:22] 5[15:30:22]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Grum: Risugami is
  1778. [15:30:23] 5[15:30:23]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14^
  1779. [15:30:23] 5[15:30:23]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: Some people live off it.
  1780. [15:30:24] 5[15:30:24]15->>2| 7LexManos2 | 14Adflys are good, but should always be optional :P
  1781. 12[15:30:25] * mike_ ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  1782. 09[15:30:45] * orgest1 ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1783. [15:30:45] 5[15:30:45]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14adfly is ok, you can make much more with a simple side and some ads though
  1784. [15:30:47] 5[15:30:47]15->>2| 15Amaranth hates adfly2 |
  1785. [15:30:48] 5[15:30:48]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14This is one of the reasons I brought up architecture and hosting of the "hub".
  1786. [15:30:49] 5[15:30:49]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14obviously a repo will not go hand in hand with adfly
  1787. 12[15:30:56] * orgest ([email protected]) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  1788. [15:30:58] 5[15:30:58]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14yer
  1789. [15:31:02] 5[15:31:02]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14anything automated will not go hand in hand with that
  1790. 09[15:31:04] * Laira ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1791. [15:31:04] 5[15:31:04]15->>2| 15DV8FromTheWorld also hates adf.ly2 |
  1792. 09[15:31:08] * ComicRetrolution (~chatzilla@2002:40bc:c2ab::40bc:c2ab) has joined #minecraftdev
  1793. [15:31:11] 5[15:31:11]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14The scale of this, and the bandwidth and I/O required to host this stuff centrally is insane.
  1794. 09[15:31:11] * rak-mobile ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1795. [15:31:16] 5[15:31:16]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14yes
  1796. 12[15:31:22] * Ribor ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 190 seconds)
  1797. 09[15:31:32] * Whatever ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1798. 09[15:31:33] * vahva_ ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1799. [15:31:33] 5[15:31:33]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14indeed, but it's a goal that would benefit everyone immensely
  1800. 09[15:31:38] * Neon_Bilbe ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1801. [15:31:42] 5[15:31:42]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Can modders allow ads on the page for some revenue? Would they be allowed to ‘sell’ the plugins, so users have to pay a small amount to use it (Mojang would have to do this on a case by case basis)? Will donation buttons and / or links be available for them?
  1802. [15:31:42] 5[15:31:42]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14the ease of use factor alone would probably make it worthwhile
  1803. [15:31:48] 5[15:31:48]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14At the moment, the forums alone can barely keep themselves online and there's a period of downtime almost every day.
  1804. 12[15:31:53] * Ctri ([email protected]) Quit
  1805. 09[15:31:53] * xGhOsTkiLLeRx ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1806. [15:31:55] 5[15:31:55]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14what i think is something that should be minimally possible is if we get a descriptive part of the repo (that you'd browse) -- to have donation links on there orso
  1807. 12[15:31:58] * Molochnik ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  1808. 12[15:32:00] * ComicRetrolution (~chatzilla@2002:40bc:c2ab::40bc:c2ab) Quit (Client Quit)
  1809. [15:32:00] 5[15:32:00]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14EvilSeph: Certainly, I fully agree that there should be a central site.
  1810. [15:32:06] 5[15:32:06]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14s/day/hour/
  1811. 12[15:32:15] * bculkin2442 ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: bculkin2442)
  1812. [15:32:18] 5[15:32:18]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14perhaps registered plugin writers and specify their own repo sources
  1813. 09[15:32:19] * Josh ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1814. [15:32:19] 5[15:32:19]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14EvilSeph: But the architecture and planning is an entire meeting in itself :)
  1815. [15:32:23] 5[15:32:23]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14Tk, why is that?
  1816. 09[15:32:25] * macer7 ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1817. [15:32:28] 5[15:32:28]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14*can
  1818. 09[15:32:30] * macer7_ ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1819. [15:32:32] 5[15:32:32]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14DV8FromTheWorld: Clarify?
  1820. 09[15:32:33] * Colecf ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1821. [15:32:33] 5[15:32:33]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14(the downtime)
  1822. [15:32:34] 5[15:32:34]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14EvilSeph: central site would be the easiest way for users to go with, i would agree on that one
  1823. 09[15:32:37] * KsaRedFx ([email protected]) has left #minecraftdev
  1824. [15:32:39] 5[15:32:39]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14We can still have personal websites for our mods where we can have banner ads, donation links etc...
  1825. [15:32:40] 5[15:32:40]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14been trying to catch up on whats said here the past hour, sounds like youll be rewriting the rendering engine, makes me happy as long as that comes with some sort of in world render hook (i have a modified version of the VBO effect renderer that supports rotated particles for the tornadoes)
  1826. [15:32:41] 5[15:32:41]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14user load?
  1827. [15:32:45] 5[15:32:45]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14DV8FromTheWorld: Ah. Simple scale.
  1828. 12[15:32:49] * Rooftops ([email protected]) Quit (Client Quit)
  1829. [15:32:56] 5[15:32:56]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14ah
  1830. [15:33:01] 5[15:33:01]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Grum: How about custom repos that when you add them a "Mojang is not responsible for the content of this repo" message pops up
  1831. [15:33:01] 5[15:33:01]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14TkTech, I know :)
  1832. [15:33:05] 5[15:33:05]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14I am also curious about what the licences might look like though.
  1833. [15:33:09] 5[15:33:09]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14to avoid legal issues and lessen server load
  1834. [15:33:10] 5[15:33:10]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Corosus: you can do a tornado with a model
  1835. [15:33:10] 4[15:33:10] Nick Alert From Channel: #minecraftdev
  1836. [15:33:10] 3[15:33:10] Keyword Alert From Channel: #minecraftdev
  1837. 12[15:33:10] * jebuzjack ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
  1838. [15:33:10] 5[15:33:10]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14DV8FromTheWorld: It is one of the most active forums in the world, and the forum software they're using does not scale well to begin with.
  1839. [15:33:15] 5[15:33:15]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Risugami that would be interesting, if modders could register with mojang for a repo, but honestly I dont' see much reason for it
  1840. [15:33:25] 5[15:33:25]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14many modders have access to web servers to host their own repos on
  1841. [15:33:32] 5[15:33:32]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14is there any forum software that would be able to handle it well?
  1842. [15:33:35] 5[15:33:35]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14DV8FromTheWorld: But once you make the decision to go with that software, changing later is a titanic task.
  1843. [15:33:38] 5[15:33:38]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14im mean O.o MCF is crazy big
  1844. [15:33:41] 5[15:33:41]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14maybe we should just add adds? ;)
  1845. 12[15:33:41] * Josh ([email protected]) Quit (Client Quit)
  1846. [15:33:44] 5[15:33:44]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14like I have everything on my dropbox and I've paid for its bandwidth
  1847. [15:33:46] 5[15:33:46]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14(no please no!)
  1848. [15:33:55] 5[15:33:55]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14NO!
  1849. [15:34:01] 5[15:34:01]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14I don't want ads either, just to get that across
  1850. [15:34:01] 5[15:34:01]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14maybe it makes sense to have a list of mods with core class changes and specific information about the changes that were necessary to the core classes
  1851. [15:34:09] 5[15:34:09]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: Acccccctuualy, some people have done that and it is viable.
  1852. 09[15:34:11] * v77 ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1853. [15:34:15] 5[15:34:15]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14i guess id just hack it in so i can have my world render hook
  1854. 12[15:34:17] * LanderVis ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 190 seconds)
  1855. [15:34:21] 5[15:34:21]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14You already make money of it. :P
  1856. [15:34:23] 5[15:34:23]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14as a model requires a living entity
  1857. [15:34:26] 5[15:34:26]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: You allow the mod creator to have his own ad included on the mod page on the hub.
  1858. 12[15:34:32] * nicolas ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
  1859. 12[15:34:33] * shod ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  1860. [15:34:39] 5[15:34:39]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14A tornado...as a model...
  1861. [15:34:39] 3[15:34:39] Keyword Alert From Channel: #minecraftdev
  1862. 12[15:34:42] * coocoo617 ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
  1863. [15:34:44] 5[15:34:44]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14medsouz, yes, but there's a security risk there
  1864. [15:34:53] 5[15:34:53]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14if mojang WAS to allow ads
  1865. [15:34:54] 5[15:34:54]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14if there is a way to get revenue directly from hosting the repo (not sure how though) maybe it is an option to do a Curse-reward like scheme, where a part of the revenus is returned back to the popular plugins
  1866. [15:35:00] 5[15:35:00]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14I'd say it should be a checkbox for it
  1867. 12[15:35:01] * marktech ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: leaving)
  1868. 12[15:35:02] * Steel ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 190 seconds)
  1869. [15:35:03] 5[15:35:03]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14No more of a risk than there is right now EvilSeph
  1870. 12[15:35:04] * dani_ ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  1871. [15:35:09] 5[15:35:09]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14and all ads would have to go through mojang
  1872. [15:35:12] 5[15:35:12]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Just make sure the code is sandboxed in some way
  1873. [15:35:13] 5[15:35:13]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14but frankly, i think that unless we start selling adds ... :p
  1874. [15:35:19] 5[15:35:19]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14a central repository would provide more security
  1875. 12[15:35:32] * Idome ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 190 seconds)
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  1879. [15:35:44] 5[15:35:44]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14if you could provide a way for us to link to our site for mod info from the repo that would be greatr
  1880. [15:35:45] 5[15:35:45]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Grum tbh if mojang started selling ads, I don't think there'd be issues with not enough customers
  1881. [15:35:46] 5[15:35:46]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14:V
  1882. 09[15:36:04] * _Neph_ ([email protected]) has left #minecraftdev
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  1887. [15:36:13] 5[15:36:13]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14yeah
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  1892. [15:36:25] 5[15:36:25]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14ShaRose: yeah lol; i rather not see adds (like it is not)
  1893. [15:36:28] 5[15:36:28]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14our website has pages for recipes, videos, a forum, downloads, and a wiki with a faq
  1894. 09[15:36:32] * hippo ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1895. [15:36:34] 5[15:36:34]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14it'd be hard to have all that on a single mojang repo
  1896. 12[15:36:37] * Viper ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  1897. 12[15:36:42] * Morvelaira ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 380 seconds)
  1898. [15:36:46] 5[15:36:46]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14basically if you see which mods change core classes and why, it's easy to decide if that's worth being added to the api or if it should be left out - and force the mod to keep using classical style modifications
  1899. [15:36:48] 5[15:36:48]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14Garry's Mod has plenty of extremely complicated and game changing mods with a ton of assets
  1900. [15:36:49] 5[15:36:49]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14make plugins sandboxed (allow servers to turn sandboxing off), allow 3rd party repos for client and server plugins. Allow servers to enforce mojang repo or to blacklist repos.
  1901. 09[15:36:51] * Pohy ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1902. [15:36:59] 5[15:36:59]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Wouldn't your mod still have a website? The repo is for dev, and a host for the client to download it
  1903. [15:37:00] 5[15:37:00]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Maybe sell server ads?
  1904. [15:37:02] 5[15:37:02]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14hosting hasn't really been a problem
  1905. 09[15:37:07] * sp614x ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1906. [15:37:07] 5[15:37:07]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14i like that idea Searge
  1907. 09[15:37:09] * Magick ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1908. [15:37:11] 5[15:37:11]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Like advertisement for Minecraft servers
  1909. [15:37:15] 5[15:37:15]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14and hudnreds/thousands of people join a day
  1910. [15:37:25] 5[15:37:25]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14I wouldn't be against having a plugin site linked on the repo
  1911. [15:37:29] 5[15:37:29]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Searge: yeah so we need to make a collection pot and then group stuff up and devise an API that supplies the needed changes
  1912. [15:37:32] 5[15:37:32]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14that's with third party repos though
  1913. 09[15:37:37] * Steel ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1914. [15:37:39] 5[15:37:39]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14Xie, but if the downloads were all in one place, people wouldn't know where to look
  1915. [15:37:43] 5[15:37:43]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14oh, and did anyone ask about the plugin subscription ideas I had
  1916. 09[15:37:45] * FourAM ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
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  1919. [15:37:46] 5[15:37:46]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14Corosus, that's basically how I did the research for my mod system, analyzed hundreds of mods with core changes
  1920. [15:37:46] 4[15:37:46] Nick Alert From Channel: #minecraftdev
  1921. [15:37:48] 5[15:37:48]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14for the external website
  1922. [15:37:53] 5[15:37:53]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum / EvilSeph: So, this discussion is bouncing all around but currently seems to be focusing on the distribution model. Should we push back to actual API discussion?
  1923. 12[15:37:53] * SirCmpwn ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
  1924. [15:37:57] 5[15:37:57]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14how Steam Workshop handles things seems to work
  1925. [15:37:59] 5[15:37:59]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14the best way probabl
  1926. [15:38:04] 5[15:38:04]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14The end user doesn't have to download the mod, is my understanding. Your client downloads it from the repo?
  1927. [15:38:09] 5[15:38:09]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14TkTech: yes; so now the question is how
  1928. [15:38:11] 5[15:38:11]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14TkTech yes please.
  1929. [15:38:12] 5[15:38:12]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14we have some stuff to discuss
  1930. 09[15:38:12] * Sevenseconds ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1931. [15:38:12] 5[15:38:12]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14yes
  1932. [15:38:16] 5[15:38:16]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14how should we ship our plugins?
  1933. [15:38:25] 5[15:38:25]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14with UPS
  1934. [15:38:27] 5[15:38:27]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14honestly, earning revenue from any endeavor is a business discussion which we aren't qualified to speak on
  1935. [15:38:27] 5[15:38:27]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14lol
  1936. [15:38:36] 5[15:38:36]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14Grum, maybe a repository, modders can check in the changes they made (not their whole mods!)
  1937. [15:38:38] 5[15:38:38]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14because they will contain (as we figured out right now): ServerCode, ClientCode, ClientAssets
  1938. [15:38:40] 5[15:38:40]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14free 5-7 day plugin delivery
  1939. 09[15:38:46] * dmarto ([email protected]) has left #minecraftdev
  1940. [15:38:56] 5[15:38:56]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14and possibly server assets
  1941. [15:39:01] 5[15:39:01]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14server has no assets
  1942. [15:39:01] 5[15:39:01]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14I think a jar will be fine
  1943. [15:39:04] 5[15:39:04]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14well not true
  1944. [15:39:05] 5[15:39:05]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14text files and such
  1945. 09[15:39:05] * sprenger120 ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1946. [15:39:05] 5[15:39:05]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Searge, then every plugin would have to be open source?
  1947. [15:39:09] 5[15:39:09]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14it has boundingboxes :p
  1948. [15:39:20] 5[15:39:20]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Risugami: yeah we can initially start with a single jar
  1949. [15:39:31] 5[15:39:31]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14which may or may not be a good thing, but I thought I'd just point that out.
  1950. [15:39:32] 5[15:39:32]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14EvilSeph great idea
  1951. [15:39:33] 5[15:39:33]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14and break it up into parts @ the hoster (put stuff in special folders to be extracted orso)
  1952. 12[15:39:39] * _Neph_ ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: leaving)
  1953. [15:39:41] 5[15:39:41]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14I wouldn't mind having a jar of client code, assets should be more compressed
  1954. [15:39:41] 5[15:39:41]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14its odd, we have talked more about the distribution of the mods/plugins and the repo and wiki than we actually have the API
  1955. [15:39:42] 5[15:39:42]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14O.o
  1956. 12[15:39:43] * Cyril ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  1957. [15:39:50] 5[15:39:50]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14sounds like i should make a list of any weird hacky hook ins i do
  1958. 09[15:39:52] * strwrsbob ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1959. [15:39:55] 5[15:39:55]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14EvilSeph, no, that's why I said only the core class changes, that'S what we need to know to decide about usefulness for the api
  1960. [15:40:00] 5[15:40:00]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: Might I make a large suggestion on the entire thing?
  1961. [15:40:03] 5[15:40:03]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14ShaRose: we're not having massive assets; textures/sounds will be big
  1962. [15:40:04] 5[15:40:04]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14but an answer to your question: no. Apple can also verify the apps without having sourcecode
  1963. [15:40:06] 5[15:40:06]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Cojo: you so silly
  1964. [15:40:07] 5[15:40:07]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14TkTech: that is why you are here
  1965. [15:40:09] 5[15:40:09]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14oh, and like MattiasM told you Grum the repo should be using pack200 and lzma for the jars
  1966. [15:40:13] 5[15:40:13]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14some people might actually want a META-INF after all
  1967. [15:40:14] 5[15:40:14]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14;)
  1968. [15:40:27] 5[15:40:27]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Risugami: i see no problem
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  1972. [15:40:44] 5[15:40:44]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14signing and whatnot
  1973. 09[15:40:47] * Kyle_ ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1974. [15:41:00] 5[15:41:00]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Risugami I asked about that as well
  1975. 09[15:41:04] * _Neph_ ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1976. [15:41:04] 5[15:41:04]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14ShaRose: Actually the choice of compression should be up to whoever made the plugin
  1977. 09[15:41:06] * Fenrir ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1978. [15:41:09] 5[15:41:09]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Risugami: you can sign your jar obviously
  1979. 12[15:41:17] * Flexicode ([email protected]) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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  1981. [15:41:18] 5[15:41:18]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Amaranth it should be up to the server that's serving the content :V
  1982. [15:41:21] 5[15:41:21]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14we'd have to take this into consideration if we'd perhaps split out the assets in a way
  1983. [15:41:24] 5[15:41:24]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14lzma is not a silver bullet
  1984. 12[15:41:26] * Sangrifeld ([email protected]) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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  1986. [15:41:28] 5[15:41:28]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14it's mojang's bandwidth
  1987. [15:41:31] 5[15:41:31]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14I'm lagging terrible and I appear to be getting messages 2 minutes ago, but if this wasn't already suggested, there can be a central repo of cryptographic keys and third party repos with signed jars
  1988. [15:41:33] 5[15:41:33]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14terribly*
  1989. [15:41:34] 5[15:41:34]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14pack200 is only useful for jarfiles
  1990. [15:41:35] 5[15:41:35]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14The person making the mod knows what compresses the best
  1991. [15:41:39] 5[15:41:39]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14yeah
  1992. [15:41:45] 5[15:41:45]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14erm sorry;
  1993. 12[15:41:47] * LmfaoBen ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
  1994. [15:41:48] 5[15:41:48]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14its only useful for CLASS files
  1995. [15:41:56] 5[15:41:56]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14and you cannot pack200 after signing
  1996. 09[15:41:57] * Poiasdope ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  1997. [15:41:59] 5[15:41:59]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Grum that's why I said to use pack200 for the actually classes, and lzma for everything else
  1998. 12[15:41:59] * S_Trunks ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 190 seconds)
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  2004. [15:42:20] 5[15:42:20]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14I think IRC is just lagging...
  2005. [15:42:21] 5[15:42:21]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14signed jars create an extra layer of trust.
  2006. 12[15:42:23] * lKinx (~lKinx@2602:304:cf60:c390:b967:92fd:ad27:4d33) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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  2014. [15:42:24] 5[15:42:24]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14lzma is actually the worst thing you could use for streaming content, for example
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  2019. [15:42:38] 5[15:42:38]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14esper might be dying too
  2020. 09[15:42:39] * kumpelblase2_ ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2021. [15:42:39] 5[15:42:39]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Amaranth since when is a bunch of textures and sounds streaming content
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  2026. [15:42:47] 5[15:42:47]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14esper's probably dying
  2027. 12[15:42:49] * redScarf ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
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  2031. [15:43:01] 5[15:43:01]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14netsplit inbound!
  2032. 12[15:43:02] * Meowgi ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 190 seconds)
  2033. [15:43:04] 5[15:43:04]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14man the lifeboats!
  2034. 09[15:43:05] * FlowerChild_ ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
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  2047. [15:43:17] 5[15:43:17]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14almost
  2048. [15:43:19] 5[15:43:19]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14lol :P
  2049. [15:43:24] 5[15:43:24]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14poor esper
  2050. [15:43:29] 5[15:43:29]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14lol
  2051. 09[15:43:31] * iPee ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
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  2053. [15:43:31] 5[15:43:31]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14:D
  2054. 09[15:43:31] * WolfGang ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
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  2057. [15:43:33] 5[15:43:33]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14anyways, I don't see why in order to upload a plugin to the repo it goes through a processing stage\
  2058. 09[15:43:43] * hunterboerner ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
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  2065. [15:43:58] 5[15:43:58]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14What happens if there is a netsplit? Will the meeting be delayed?
  2066. 12[15:43:59] * xyxel ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
  2067. [15:44:00] 5[15:44:00]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14and in that stage, is splits the mod up into client classes, server classes, client assets, and server assets
  2068. 12[15:44:01] * tdawlings2 ([email protected]) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  2069. 09[15:44:11] * MC_Abderus ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2070. [15:44:12] 5[15:44:12]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14medsouz no, wait for it to end :V
  2071. [15:44:14] 5[15:44:14]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Obviously this discussion isn't really suited for covering specific topics about API design in detail - we'll use some other tool for that, like the issue tracker
  2072. [15:44:19] 5[15:44:19]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: Bare with me, this is going to be a long message. This is my suggestion for the actual container for plugins. As previously suggested, the container is a ZIP (which is all a JAR is). Contained in the ZIP is three folders, which are: "Client", "Server", "Shared". Within each of the three folders is also a folder called "Assets". The contents of this folder is all the image, sound and general assets required by their res
  2073. [15:44:20] 5[15:44:20]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14target. As for the API, these folders are exposed to the API by a VFS (Virtual file system) interface. Think vfs_open("client/images/background.png"). The root of this VFS is automatically the correct folder.
  2074. 09[15:44:23] * MikeMatrix_ ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2075. [15:44:24] 5[15:44:24]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14obviously can't have two meetings in the same room
  2076. [15:44:26] 5[15:44:26]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14but we'd like to just throw some topics out there and see what ideas people have
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  2080. [15:44:35] 5[15:44:35]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14to get a feel for things
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  2085. [15:44:49] 5[15:44:49]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14TkTech: yes; but some of the assets are really small; like models/blockmeshes etc
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  2088. [15:44:59] 5[15:44:59]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14TkTech: so perhaps we do not have to have the extra seperation
  2089. [15:45:01] 5[15:45:01]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: The Client folder can contain classes which are streamed to the client, who will execute them based on a permissions manifest and a client-side SecurityManager with a restrictive security polic.
  2090. 12[15:45:01] * Linkupdated ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 380 seconds)
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  2092. [15:45:16] 5[15:45:16]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14how will we handle block meshes btw
  2093. 09[15:45:20] * core_ ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2094. [15:45:20] 5[15:45:20]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14TkTech I'd say to keep class files separate from everything else, so you can pack200 those and sign seperate from the assets
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  2099. [15:45:25] 5[15:45:25]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14same way as every other mesh
  2100. [15:45:25] 5[15:45:25]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14DV8FromTheWorld don't you feel there is no much use in talking about the plugin container format just yet :/
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  2105. [15:45:31] 5[15:45:31]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14many of them are quite dynamic
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  2109. [15:45:37] 5[15:45:37]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14(or the client downloads the plugin and that contains the code)
  2110. [15:45:43] 5[15:45:43]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14like chests
  2111. [15:45:45] 5[15:45:45]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Risugami: how do you mean?
  2112. 12[15:45:46] * Dries007_ ([email protected]) Quit (Client Quit)
  2113. [15:45:48] 5[15:45:48]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14chests are actually models
  2114. [15:45:50] 5[15:45:50]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Jarvix it's one of those things that should be set up early, so
  2115. [15:45:50] 5[15:45:50]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14and furnace
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  2118. [15:45:55] 5[15:45:55]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14yea, thats what i said. We need something to actually make the plugins use
  2119. [15:45:56] 5[15:45:56]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14furnace is not dynamic
  2120. [15:45:57] 5[15:45:57]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14furnace is static
  2121. [15:46:02] 5[15:46:02]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14its actually two blocks
  2122. [15:46:05] 5[15:46:05]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14we can talk about how they are contained and distributed later
  2123. [15:46:14] 5[15:46:14]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14not sure why that isnt the objective right now O.o
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  2127. [15:46:21] 5[15:46:21]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14( FourAM ) EvilSeph: If it hasn't been mentioned already, something like dynmap is a good example of why a server might need assets, so it should be part of the design so it is always done in a somewhat standardized way
  2128. 09[15:46:22] * iFunny_ ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2129. [15:46:24] 5[15:46:24]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14ShaRose yes, but I feel that this is like talking about curtains (very important according to women) when there is no foundation yet.
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  2133. [15:46:32] 5[15:46:32]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14the textured sides can change
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  2138. [15:46:38] 5[15:46:38]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14If this foundation fails, all effort to choose curtains is wasted.
  2139. [15:46:46] 5[15:46:46]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: Sorry, why would size influence seperation?
  2140. [15:46:49] 5[15:46:49]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Risugami: just use another 'Block' with as only differene the texture-change
  2141. 09[15:46:50] * Trickster_ ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2142. [15:46:51] 5[15:46:51]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14iirc, static data is going to be batched into the chunk, dynamic stuff (with animations) will be done in a seperate batch
  2143. [15:46:54] 5[15:46:54]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Jarvix yes, but the repo is the foundation
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  2146. [15:47:05] 5[15:47:05]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14TkTech: some stuff doesnt justify to be split up like meshes (they are just some bytes big)
  2147. [15:47:06] 5[15:47:06]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14not really.
  2148. [15:47:14] 5[15:47:14]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14the API is the foundation. Without API no plugins no repo needed
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  2150. [15:47:23] 5[15:47:23]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: Sure, it's for static resources only and completely optional.
  2151. [15:47:23] 5[15:47:23]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14TkTech: we'll split it in a way that makes sense (and we'll figure this out later)
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  2155. [15:47:38] 5[15:47:38]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14i dont think resources should be optional with a plugin
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  2158. [15:47:47] 5[15:47:47]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14no, they shouldn't be
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  2235. [15:47:54] 5[15:47:54]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14yay
  2236. 12[15:47:58] * Riking ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net)
  2237. [15:48:00] 5[15:48:00]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14bam
  2238. 12[15:48:00] * Volition ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  2239. [15:48:01] 5[15:48:01]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14And netsplit.
  2240. [15:48:01] 5[15:48:01]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14BOOM we broke it
  2241. [15:48:02] 5[15:48:02]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14generating models at runtime is messy and ugly
  2242. [15:48:03] 5[15:48:03]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14BOOP
  2243. [15:48:03] 5[15:48:03]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14well done :P
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  2247. [15:48:09] 5[15:48:09]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14We just lost like 150 people
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  2250. [15:48:13] 5[15:48:13]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14sowwy esper :(
  2251. [15:48:15] 5[15:48:15]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Well I don't think we lost anyone important
  2252. [15:48:15] 5[15:48:15]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14nah like 70
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  2257. [15:48:34] 5[15:48:34]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14lol amaranth
  2258. [15:48:34] 5[15:48:34]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14(I meant anyone voiced)
  2259. [15:48:35] 5[15:48:35]15->>2| 7Searge-DP2 | 14btw, is there a timeframe set for this discussion today? i'm trying to figure out if I should order pizza or will have time to cook soon ;)
  2260. 09[15:48:37] * ochenchi ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2261. [15:48:39] 5[15:48:39]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14(Might I point out I did recommend free node? :3)
  2262. [15:48:39] 5[15:48:39]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 142 voiced
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  2266. [15:48:51] 5[15:48:51]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Searge-DP: well; we either need to dive into relevant sections asap ot do this later
  2267. 09[15:48:56] * AtomicStryker ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2268. [15:48:56] 5[15:48:56]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14i hope that we might do that?
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  2270. [15:48:58] 5[15:48:58]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14TkTech because freenode never netsplits ever :V
  2271. [15:49:02] 5[15:49:02]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14to get some idea of what people thing would be critical points
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  2274. [15:49:10] 5[15:49:10]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14we need to actually discuss the API
  2275. 09[15:49:11] * Zimsky-- ([email protected]) has left #minecraftdev
  2276. [15:49:11] 5[15:49:11]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14*think
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  2278. [15:49:14] 5[15:49:14]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14ShaRose: It is far more reliable than esper, you can't deny that :)
  2279. 09[15:49:18] * Zimsky ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2280. [15:49:25] 5[15:49:25]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14instead of the methods for which we will distribute mods
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  2285. [15:49:31] 5[15:49:31]15->>2| 7Searge-DP2 | 14I'd rather stop discussing in 10 minutes and continue next time
  2286. [15:49:32] 5[15:49:32]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14and their packaging
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  2291. [15:49:39] 5[15:49:39]15<<-2| Corosus requests all variables and fields be made public *ducks and covers*2 |
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  2294. [15:49:40] 5[15:49:40]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14yeah, its getting midnight here at Finland and i think we need to focus on the API for now
  2295. [15:49:40] 5[15:49:40]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Searge-DP: its hard enough to call a meeting
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  2297. [15:49:46] 5[15:49:46]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14TkTech been on esper for 2 years, it's netsplit maybe like 20 times or so
  2298. [15:49:46] 5[15:49:46]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14lol
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  2302. [15:49:55] 5[15:49:55]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14been on freenode for a month or two, 2-3 times
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  2304. [15:49:59] 5[15:49:59]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14Corosus, getters and setters for ALL THE THINGS
  2305. [15:49:59] 4[15:49:59] Nick Alert From Channel: #minecraftdev
  2306. [15:50:00] 5[15:50:00]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14ok; lets try something
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  2310. [15:50:03] 5[15:50:03]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14jkjkjkjkjk
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  2312. [15:50:05] 5[15:50:05]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Blocks --- lets discuss
  2313. [15:50:06] 5[15:50:06]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14so I kind of can
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  2342. [15:50:17] 5[15:50:17]15->>2| 7Searge-DP2 | 14ok, Grum, but 1 more hour tops :p
  2343. [15:50:18] 5[15:50:18]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14hmm
  2344. [15:50:18] 5[15:50:18]15->>2| 7LexManos2 | 14Blocks first thing, more context aware!
  2345. [15:50:19] 5[15:50:19]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14let's discuss HOLY CRAP JOINS
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  2349. [15:50:26] 5[15:50:26]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Searge-DP why...
  2350. [15:50:28] 5[15:50:28]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14we need to be able to add blocks, with textures (which will be stitched into a bigass atlas automagically)
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  2354. [15:50:31] 5[15:50:31]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14lol
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  2367. [15:50:43] 5[15:50:43]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14lets discuss the API
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  2371. [15:50:46] 5[15:50:46]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14what i actually hope to do is get rid of meta-data
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  2374. [15:50:52] 5[15:50:52]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14(block-meta-data)
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  2382. [15:51:01] 5[15:51:01]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14and use what instead?
  2383. [15:51:01] 5[15:51:01]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14and use the full 16bits for 'block ids'
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  2385. [15:51:09] 5[15:51:09]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Grum I still kind of want a way for blocks to be able to hold 'extra info'
  2386. [15:51:09] 5[15:51:09]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: I think we've all agreed dynamic blocks are essential. All the existing blocks would probably benefit from being implement as dynamic blocks as well.
  2387. [15:51:10] 5[15:51:10]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14ok, Blocks, is there a standard updater/syncher for Tile Entities planned? like how entities have entity trackers, last i tried i had to make custom packets for syncing my tile entities
  2388. [15:51:11] 5[15:51:11]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14*cough* native HD support *couigh*
  2389. [15:51:11] 5[15:51:11]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: Agreed.
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  2392. [15:51:16] 5[15:51:16]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14in a way that isn't crazy slow
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  2396. [15:51:25] 5[15:51:25]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14like tileentities for example
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  2399. [15:51:28] 5[15:51:28]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14i guess that wasnt entirely an API question
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  2401. [15:51:32] 5[15:51:32]15->>2| 7Searge-DP2 | 14Jarvix, because it's better to have several shorter meetings than one long meeting
  2402. [15:51:33] 5[15:51:33]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14I think the idea is that each block is mapped to a single 16bit int.
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  2404. [15:51:34] 5[15:51:34]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14right now the only reason why data is useful; is so the renderer doesnt have to change a block
  2405. 12[15:51:35] * Michael4797 ([email protected]) Quit (Client Quit)
  2406. [15:51:35] 5[15:51:35]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14how will the various loops know who to defer further processing to?
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  2412. [15:51:41] 5[15:51:41]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14And that int is mapped into a table that contains metadata.
  2413. [15:51:42] 5[15:51:42]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14but that kinda fails on many levels right now
  2414. [15:51:44] 5[15:51:44]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Re: licences. I understand that you can't really respond to any questions about licensing, but will it be one of the issues that you'll accept community input on, or will it be decided by Mojang (and its legal team)?
  2415. 09[15:51:47] * pepzi ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2416. [15:51:48] 5[15:51:48]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Searge-DP yes, but we did not discuss the API yet.
  2417. [15:51:49] 5[15:51:49]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14because you eventually do have to have possibly many many types of data
  2418. [15:51:51] 5[15:51:51]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14(I just want to check it off my personal agenda :P)
  2419. 09[15:51:51] * macer7 ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2420. [15:51:52] 5[15:51:52]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Xie: mojang legal
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  2422. [15:52:07] 5[15:52:07]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14TkTech: this would also mean that every model-variation should become a different blockid
  2423. 09[15:52:08] * panda ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2424. [15:52:08] 5[15:52:08]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Grum: So no community input?
  2425. 09[15:52:09] * Mouring ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2426. [15:52:11] 5[15:52:11]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14This simplifies a lot of things.
  2427. [15:52:11] 5[15:52:11]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14think of for example a fence
  2428. 09[15:52:13] * Scott (~scott@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fe93:f1ba) has left #minecraftdev
  2429. [15:52:14] 5[15:52:14]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Searge-DP, yea, but we'd just like to get a feel for things :)
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  2432. [15:52:25] 5[15:52:25]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14a fence with a fence on top suddenly gets longer
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  2435. [15:52:31] 5[15:52:31]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14a fence with a fence next ot it suddenly gets 'arms'
  2436. [15:52:40] 5[15:52:40]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14all the options should just be block variations
  2437. 12[15:52:42] * WolfGang ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 13.0.1/20120614114901])
  2438. [15:52:49] 5[15:52:49]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14so the renderer doesnt have to go look around in real time to see 'what it should render it as'
  2439. [15:52:51] 5[15:52:51]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14The server finds the next free block ID and allocates it, then sends the client an update to its block table.
  2440. [15:52:52] 5[15:52:52]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14we can't cover that Xie, sorry. We're developers, not lawywers :(
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  2442. [15:52:59] 5[15:52:59]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14TkTech: yes
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  2446. [15:53:11] 5[15:53:11]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14so a block can't be rendered dynamically? at all?
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  2449. [15:53:14] 5[15:53:14]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14so internally you can find a block by its name (and then you store the reference)
  2450. 09[15:53:16] * drdanick_ ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2451. [15:53:18] 5[15:53:18]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14no possibly drawing a screen on it?
  2452. [15:53:22] 5[15:53:22]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14or something like that
  2453. 12[15:53:24] * codename_B ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 204 seconds)
  2454. [15:53:24] 5[15:53:24]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14what
  2455. [15:53:26] 5[15:53:26]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14sk89q: make it an entity
  2456. [15:53:30] 5[15:53:30]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14(tile entity)
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  2459. [15:53:34] 5[15:53:34]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14the idea is that models are shared
  2460. [15:53:39] 5[15:53:39]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14oh so you're keeping that
  2461. [15:53:39] 5[15:53:39]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14between entities and blocks
  2462. [15:53:41] 5[15:53:41]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14some form of interning
  2463. 12[15:53:42] * Jerox ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Jerox)
  2464. [15:53:51] 5[15:53:51]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14EvilSeph: I understand
  2465. [15:53:59] 5[15:53:59]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14so, you could have a static block that is a chest
  2466. [15:53:59] 5[15:53:59]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14sk89q: yes some blocks need animation for example
  2467. 12[15:53:59] * Lumaraf ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Verlassend)
  2468. [15:54:01] 5[15:54:01]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14that doesn't open
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  2471. [15:54:08] 5[15:54:08]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: This significantly simplifies many things, from the protocol level to chunk processing and lighting.
  2472. [15:54:09] 5[15:54:09]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14so you can use a 'model' for a block; a model would have aninations you could play
  2473. 12[15:54:12] * Techy ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
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  2477. [15:54:14] 5[15:54:14]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14TkTech: yeah
  2478. 09[15:54:16] * Rashed ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2479. [15:54:24] 5[15:54:24]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: At the cost of bandwidth and disk space, which is really a non-issue.
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  2483. [15:54:30] 5[15:54:30]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14one thing that hit me directly is that you'd have to make 4 variations to take ina account orientation
  2484. [15:54:40] 5[15:54:40]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14cmon a mesh of a fence is like 40 bytes :P
  2485. 12[15:54:42] * mister_person_ ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  2486. [15:54:46] 5[15:54:46]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14ok maybe 200
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  2488. [15:54:48] 5[15:54:48]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14"TkTech: this would also mean that every model-variation should become a different blockid"... which is a problem when you can have a cartesian product of many subblocks inside a block
  2489. [15:54:55] 5[15:54:55]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14another point. still need to allow the end portal to render correctly
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  2494. [15:55:08] 5[15:55:08]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Eloraam: yes but most of the options are rotation
  2495. 09[15:55:12] * Asa ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2496. [15:55:18] 5[15:55:18]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14when you start to combine blocks; maybe using a tileentity is better
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  2499. [15:55:25] 5[15:55:25]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14(as you should be able to just attack entities, play animations etc)
  2500. [15:55:26] 5[15:55:26]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Risugami that is not really something for here now...
  2501. 09[15:55:32] * bculkin2442 ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2502. [15:55:36] 5[15:55:36]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Eloraam: I didn't say that did I o_o
  2503. [15:55:37] 5[15:55:37]15->>2| 7LexManos2 | 14She is referring to her covers, and he said that special tile entity renderes would still exist yes?
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  2506. [15:55:48] 5[15:55:48]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14related to block models however
  2507. 09[15:55:53] * Idome ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2508. [15:55:53] 5[15:55:53]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14covers aren't the only case of it...
  2509. [15:55:53] 5[15:55:53]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Risugami: i'd say the portal ahs a surface that has some shader attached to it to do the warping
  2510. 12[15:55:58] * nullv ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 202 seconds)
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  2512. [15:55:59] 5[15:55:59]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14but it's a good example.
  2513. [15:56:01] 5[15:56:01]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14we have to look into how to actually do it
  2514. [15:56:06] 5[15:56:06]15->>2| 7LexManos2 | 14arnt the only case, but the best example
  2515. 12[15:56:08] * bculkin2442 ([email protected]) Quit (Client Quit)
  2516. [15:56:13] 5[15:56:13]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14it depends on how much tileentities will be sped up
  2517. [15:56:14] 5[15:56:14]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Eloraam: you can do that with a tile entity
  2518. [15:56:15] 5[15:56:15]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14yes, that i'll agree with.
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  2521. [15:56:24] 5[15:56:24]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14i'm already doing it with a TileEntity
  2522. [15:56:25] 5[15:56:25]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14afaik they are much slower than just a regular block
  2523. 12[15:56:25] * fish|phone ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 202 seconds)
  2524. [15:56:27] 5[15:56:27]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14and just create some state to attach a specific model depending on which 'cover' you want
  2525. 12[15:56:27] * Brianmd47 ([email protected]) Quit (Client Quit)
  2526. [15:56:29] 5[15:56:29]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14just making sure that i can keep doing that :)
  2527. 12[15:56:31] * Cojo ([email protected]) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  2528. [15:56:33] 5[15:56:33]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14yeah ofc :)
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  2536. [15:56:53] 5[15:56:53]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14also; native support for larger texture packs
  2537. 09[15:57:02] * Deaygo ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
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  2539. [15:57:09] 5[15:57:09]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14ah
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  2546. [15:57:22] 5[15:57:22]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14AND mixed/matched mode; so if you have 64x64 textures and a mode adds a block but only has a 16x16 .. well, just handle it somehow
  2547. 09[15:57:23] * latexink (~AtomBomb@2001:470:8b2d:804:f66d:4ff:fe09:b633) has joined #minecraftdev
  2548. [15:57:23] 5[15:57:23]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14*native support for arbitrary power-of-two texture packs
  2549. [15:57:24] 5[15:57:24]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14:)
  2550. [15:57:25] 5[15:57:25]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14and Grum possibly allow texture packs to support specific mods
  2551. 09[15:57:26] * nossr50 ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
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  2557. [15:57:36] 5[15:57:36]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14ShaRose: yes
  2558. [15:57:38] 5[15:57:38]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: Interpolate between the available textures and the required texture size.
  2559. 09[15:57:39] * mister_person ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
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  2561. 09[15:57:43] * EvilSeph sets mode: +v FlowerChild_
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  2563. [15:57:46] 5[15:57:46]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14ShaRose: Shocking, a dynamic thing that can be any size, shape, in motion, etc renders slower than a static block :P
  2564. 09[15:57:46] * LC10094 ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2565. [15:57:48] 5[15:57:48]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14Grum: yes that sounds fine, as some mods could use different texture sizes
  2566. 12[15:57:49] * Jasiek ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 204 seconds)
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  2568. [15:57:58] 5[15:57:58]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14TkTech: i'd like to add a 'force scaling to size ZZxZZ'
  2569. [15:57:59] 5[15:57:59]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: Which is how everything does it (such as app icons on OS X)
  2570. [15:58:00] 5[15:58:00]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Amaranth I know right?
  2571. 12[15:58:02] * AgentK ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 190 seconds)
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  2575. [15:58:16] 5[15:58:16]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14for people with low-end gfx so they can run that one plugin that adds a block with 512x512 textures
  2576. 09[15:58:18] * Monofraps ([email protected]) has left #minecraftdev
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  2579. 09[15:58:23] * drdanick_ is now known as drdanick
  2580. [15:58:26] 5[15:58:26]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14very good idea
  2581. [15:58:28] 5[15:58:28]15->>2| 7Searge-DP2 | 14well, using a modern shader based renderer will also easily allow to bind several textures and let the shader decide which one to use for each element redered, so you have multiple textures and still only need one render call
  2582. [15:58:44] 5[15:58:44]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Searge-DP: for 1.x we need to make an atlas
  2583. 09[15:58:44] * Dominicewan ([email protected]) has left #minecraftdev
  2584. [15:58:52] 5[15:58:52]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14and i want native MipMapping!
  2585. [15:58:56] 5[15:58:56]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14also using a single texture +UV is more efficient
  2586. [15:59:00] 5[15:59:00]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14yeah, but there are a significant number of people that can't run shaders
  2587. [15:59:04] 5[15:59:04]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Jarvix: yes
  2588. 09[15:59:08] * officerpup ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2589. 12[15:59:11] * Ribor ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 380 seconds)
  2590. [15:59:11] 5[15:59:11]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14which is worrying
  2591. 12[15:59:14] * thebeatles8371 ([email protected]) Quit
  2592. [15:59:17] 5[15:59:17]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14RoyAwesome: That's BS
  2593. [15:59:17] 5[15:59:17]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14since, you know, they came out in 2004
  2594. [15:59:19] 5[15:59:19]15->>2| 7Searge-DP2 | 14Grum, who is still using 1.x-only GPUs?
  2595. [15:59:21] 5[15:59:21]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14RoyAwesome these people can suck it
  2596. [15:59:21] 5[15:59:21]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Thanks. because wood looks awful from a distance.
  2597. 12[15:59:24] * Hammarhaus ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
  2598. [15:59:27] 5[15:59:27]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Searge a fair few
  2599. [15:59:32] 5[15:59:32]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Searge-DP: ~20% of what we saw from a 25minnute snooper snapshot
  2600. [15:59:34] 5[15:59:34]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14RoyAwesome: As grum found when he profiled clients for about 30 minutes' worth of logins, only 5-10% of people don't support GL 2.x
  2601. [15:59:39] 5[15:59:39]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14Grum: 10-15%
  2602. [15:59:43] 5[15:59:43]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14GMA 945 is still out there people
  2603. 09[15:59:44] * Florastar ([email protected]) has left #minecraftdev
  2604. [15:59:48] 5[15:59:48]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14It does _not_ support OpenGL 2
  2605. [15:59:49] 5[15:59:49]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14oh bit lower
  2606. [15:59:49] 5[15:59:49]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14kk
  2607. [15:59:51] 5[15:59:51]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14if you guys want, I can pull up that snapshot's data
  2608. 09[15:59:51] * fysics ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
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  2610. [15:59:54] 5[15:59:54]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14that is still a significant number
  2611. 12[15:59:55] * Poiasdope ([email protected]) Quit
  2612. [15:59:57] 5[15:59:57]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14actually the ancient GL path that MC is using is really hurting the performance for anyone NOT running ancient cards.
  2613. [15:59:58] 5[15:59:58]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14(or mojang can whatever)
  2614. 09[16:00:00] * thebeatles8371_ ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2615. [16:00:03] 5[16:00:03]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14yeah significant enough so mojang cannot officialy kill 1.x yet
  2616. [16:00:10] 5[16:00:10]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14considering 5million sales, that's 50,000 people
  2617. 12[16:00:15] * Sk8r2K10 ([email protected]) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  2618. 12[16:00:16] * Angelixion ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
  2619. [16:00:16] 5[16:00:16]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Eloraam: yes so our first goal is adding 2.x asap
  2620. [16:00:21] 5[16:00:21]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14RoyAwesome: i think a lot of our customers... Which is bit worrying (schools live with computers they currently have...)
  2621. [16:00:23] 5[16:00:23]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14in our client overhau;
  2622. 09[16:00:30] * Poiasdope ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2623. [16:00:37] 5[16:00:37]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14hmm
  2624. 09[16:00:44] * LanderVis ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2625. [16:00:45] 5[16:00:45]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14using 3.3 has been a flat-out 10x speed boost http://i.imgur.com/n1MRD.png
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  2629. [16:01:00] 5[16:01:00]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Eloraam: yeah there are way better ways of doing stuff
  2630. 12[16:01:10] * hippo ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
  2631. [16:01:11] 5[16:01:11]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14working on that :D
  2632. [16:01:14] 5[16:01:14]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14hehe :)
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  2637. [16:01:31] 5[16:01:31]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14if mods will have custom renderers, should they be forced to have at least a 1.x codepath and then have higher version paths for preformance, or will we be limited to 1.x (or not working on shit systems)
  2638. [16:01:35] 5[16:01:35]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14converting atlases to texture arrays and then using a shader to sort it out has been great.
  2639. [16:01:40] 5[16:01:40]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Eloraam: What is this a screenshot of?
  2640. 09[16:01:46] * nullv ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2641. [16:01:49] 5[16:01:49]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 141.x sounds very old.
  2642. [16:01:52] 5[16:01:52]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14ShaRose: 'custom renderer' ?
  2643. [16:01:54] 5[16:01:54]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14http://i.imgur.com/xYup4.png my new game engine hehe.
  2644. 09[16:01:55] * Chilangosta ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2645. [16:01:57] 5[16:01:57]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Hmm, I thought texture arrays was GL 4
  2646. [16:01:57] 5[16:01:57]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 141.x *is* very old
  2647. 12[16:02:02] * Rahazan ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
  2648. [16:02:02] 5[16:02:02]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14texture arrays are in 3.3
  2649. 12[16:02:08] * [AWAY]GadgetTvMan ([email protected]) Quit
  2650. [16:02:12] 5[16:02:12]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14While hardware that only does 1.x does exist, it's gradually being phased out
  2651. [16:02:16] 5[16:02:16]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14What about going standard on a 2 or 3, and allowing older renderrs for compatibility
  2652. [16:02:22] 5[16:02:22]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14People are having to come up with contrived examples like "first-gen Macbook Air"
  2653. [16:02:22] 5[16:02:22]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14instead of the other way around.
  2654. 09[16:02:25] * ceski23 ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
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  2658. [16:02:34] 5[16:02:34]15->>2| 7UltraMoogleMan2 | 14Jarvix: I believe that's what Grum said they're doing
  2659. [16:02:39] 5[16:02:39]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14yes
  2660. [16:02:44] 5[16:02:44]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14OSX is always behind in OGL
  2661. [16:02:46] 5[16:02:46]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14so 2.x and compat stuff for 1.x
  2662. 09[16:02:46] * GadgetTvMan ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2663. [16:02:49] 5[16:02:49]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14I was just debugging an issue with a Intel HD card that only supports 1.4
  2664. [16:02:54] 5[16:02:54]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14and 3?
  2665. [16:02:55] 5[16:02:55]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14maybe even 3.x if it has major benefits
  2666. 12[16:02:56] * orgest1 ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Bye)
  2667. [16:02:58] 5[16:02:58]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14RoyAwesome: That'd be the 945
  2668. [16:02:59] 5[16:02:59]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14but we might need to do too major changes
  2669. [16:03:00] 5[16:03:00]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14we'd like to and we need to upgrade our GL as it is causing some bugs that aren't caused by us
  2670. 09[16:03:04] * bratpilz ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2671. [16:03:05] 5[16:03:05]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14i think 2.x itself is good enough
  2672. 09[16:03:13] * Ravens ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2673. [16:03:18] 5[16:03:18]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14yes but currently lwjgl has issues on osx
  2674. [16:03:30] 5[16:03:30]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14it might be nice to do 2x as standard, and 3x as 'advanced opengl'
  2675. [16:03:32] 5[16:03:32]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14we do have some resources deployed and hope to see that fixed soooooon so we can upgrade to 2.8.4+
  2676. [16:03:38] 5[16:03:38]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14RoyAwesome: iirc it supports pixel shaders on the GPU but vertex shaders have to be emulated so some things call it GL 2 and its just slow and some call it GL 1.4 and its decent for the fixed function pipeline
  2677. 09[16:03:38] * Remiel_ ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2678. [16:03:38] 5[16:03:38]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14if there are significant preformance boosts
  2679. 09[16:03:48] * orgest ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2680. 12[16:03:59] * missingpiece ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Leaving.)
  2681. [16:04:04] 5[16:04:04]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14anyhow; i think we all agree we need basic stuff like adding items, blocks etc
  2682. [16:04:08] 5[16:04:08]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14yeah
  2683. [16:04:11] 5[16:04:11]15->>2| 7Searge-DP2 | 14ok, another topic that should be included in the discussion is, now that client and server are separated, how much work will be put into optimizing the network communication?
  2684. 12[16:04:11] * njits23_ ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 380 seconds)
  2685. [16:04:12] 5[16:04:12]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14if you guys have any questions or topics you want us to go over, please feel free to just mention them :)
  2686. [16:04:13] 5[16:04:13]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14and entities and tileentities
  2687. [16:04:14] 5[16:04:14]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14yes
  2688. 09[16:04:15] * bergerkiller ([email protected]) has left #minecraftdev
  2689. [16:04:15] 5[16:04:15]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14are there any thing that people right now worry about that might be 'hard to do' in an API?
  2690. 09[16:04:25] * Silver_innocence ([email protected]) has left #minecraftdev
  2691. 12[16:04:32] * Megaspy ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  2692. [16:04:40] 5[16:04:40]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Searge-DP: with the client overhaul we will look at streamlining it yes
  2693. [16:04:43] 5[16:04:43]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14im having a hard time thinking of things other than 'server side food stats has too many privates for no reason vs client'
  2694. [16:04:45] 5[16:04:45]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14ShaRose: Once you have a "modern" shader based renderer adding extra goodies from newer versions of GL is a lot easier
  2695. [16:04:46] 5[16:04:46]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14from my pov .. BREAK IT ALL HARD
  2696. [16:04:46] 5[16:04:46]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14custom item storage
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  2700. [16:04:54] 5[16:04:54]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14like Map item.
  2701. [16:05:00] 5[16:05:00]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14My concerns have been addressed, thank you.
  2702. 09[16:05:00] * Archina ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2703. [16:05:00] 5[16:05:00]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14:)
  2704. [16:05:00] 5[16:05:00]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14modifying behavior like how the player runs and jumps and stuff
  2705. [16:05:02] 5[16:05:02]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14at least remove static context of items, blocks, biomes, etc.
  2706. [16:05:03] 5[16:05:03]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14ShaRose: So could be done based on whether or not you even have support for it instead of some toggle
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  2710. [16:05:27] 5[16:05:27]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Amaranth yeah, giving the player an option would be nice for testing though
  2711. 09[16:05:37] * RG ([email protected]) has left #minecraftdev
  2712. [16:05:37] 5[16:05:37]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14enable and disable the option based on whether it supports it thoguh
  2713. [16:05:37] 5[16:05:37]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Jarvix: to do that we need to have a way to store data on the server; this should not be hard; perhaps in a folder per plugin (so they do not taint eachother)
  2714. [16:05:39] 5[16:05:39]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14though*
  2715. 09[16:05:40] * RG ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2716. [16:05:44] 5[16:05:44]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14ShaRose: Maybe a command line option :P
  2717. [16:05:44] 5[16:05:44]15->>2| 7Searge-DP2 | 14Grum, saving bandwidth is much, much more important than saving processing power here, I hope the network overhaul is planned with this in mind
  2718. 09[16:05:44] * teh_fish ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2719. [16:05:53] 5[16:05:53]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14I foresee plenty of hashmaps
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  2723. [16:05:56] 5[16:05:56]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Searge-DP: i'll make sure to chat on that with you
  2724. 09[16:05:56] * Megaspy ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2725. [16:06:07] 5[16:06:07]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Grum allright. What about how custom rendering: shaders etc, will be used
  2726. [16:06:08] 5[16:06:08]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14i have some ideas; also to make it easier to read the protocol
  2727. [16:06:12] 5[16:06:12]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14yeah, mc uses buttloads of bandwidth
  2728. [16:06:16] 5[16:06:16]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14yes but it HAS to
  2729. 09[16:06:18] * Sk8r2K10 ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2730. [16:06:20] 5[16:06:20]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14the world-data itself is big
  2731. [16:06:21] 5[16:06:21]15->>2| 7Searge-DP2 | 14Grum, ok, good idea, we'll discuss it later
  2732. 12[16:06:35] * Muggz ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: quit.)
  2733. [16:06:37] 5[16:06:37]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14I know it has to for world data
  2734. [16:06:45] 5[16:06:45]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14and yes it does a ton of stupid liek sending 10000 packets for entity updates rather than collecting them for a single tick and making 1 big packet
  2735. 09[16:06:45] * AmberK ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2736. [16:06:47] 5[16:06:47]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14( michaell ) I have a question that I don't think was answered -- player actions. The key they press is bound to an action that then does something on the server, which'd mean plugins should be able to add new actions, binding to default keys, can the main channel discuss that for a second?
  2737. 09[16:06:47] * Owexz ([email protected]) has left #minecraftdev
  2738. [16:07:06] 5[16:07:06]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14yeah
  2739. 09[16:07:10] * RG ([email protected]) has left #minecraftdev
  2740. 09[16:07:12] * Digdown ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2741. [16:07:15] 5[16:07:15]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14good one michaell; we've discussed it internally; we might use a source-like system
  2742. 09[16:07:15] * OwexZzz ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2743. [16:07:18] 5[16:07:18]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14I asked earlier about the state thing sending ALL keys so that plugins could do that
  2744. 09[16:07:18] * RichardG ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2745. [16:07:20] 5[16:07:20]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Grum is it possible to send the actually Seen blocks only? solves Xray and decreases bandwidth usage.
  2746. [16:07:25] 5[16:07:25]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14yeah, source's keypresses is nice
  2747. 09[16:07:32] * aPunch ([email protected]) has left #minecraftdev
  2748. [16:07:32] 5[16:07:32]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14where you basically bind keys to an action; and then with the 'input packet' simple send these actions over (compresesd perhaps?)
  2749. [16:07:32] 5[16:07:32]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Jarvix: omg cpu time
  2750. [16:07:35] 5[16:07:35]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14does that mean MC will get a console though?
  2751. [16:07:35] 5[16:07:35]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14another thing I was playing with awhile back was adding gamepad support
  2752. [16:07:36] 5[16:07:36]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Jarvix: That requires a ton of CPU
  2753. [16:07:36] 5[16:07:36]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14that'd be awesome
  2754. [16:07:43] 5[16:07:43]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Jarvix: the client doesn't even do that correctly for drawing on its own
  2755. [16:07:45] 5[16:07:45]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14ShaRose: it has it
  2756. 12[16:07:54] * Gabscap ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Verlassend)
  2757. [16:07:55] 5[16:07:55]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Mmm true.
  2758. [16:07:55] 5[16:07:55]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14not any advanced one though
  2759. [16:07:55] 5[16:07:55]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14if the server handles keypresses to respond to events, you have serious latency issues to deal with
  2760. 09[16:07:57] * mib_7su2c8 ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
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  2762. [16:07:59] 5[16:07:59]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Jarvix: And it do it at all efficiently involves use of the GPU which you don't have on a server
  2763. [16:08:02] 5[16:08:02]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Jarvix: 'seen blocks' takes raytracing on the server; an excessive amount of cpu
  2764. [16:08:02] 5[16:08:02]15->>2| 7Searge-DP2 | 14Grum, that's only one of the issues currently in the network system, but yeah, the amount of packets and the number of chunks sent are the two core problems to solve for smoother multiplay
  2765. [16:08:04] 5[16:08:04]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14ShaRose yeah, and and the functionality would be expanded
  2766. [16:08:18] 5[16:08:18]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14can't go ~ set r_DrawFog 0
  2767. [16:08:18] 5[16:08:18]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14But the recode could do it correctly.
  2768. [16:08:23] 5[16:08:23]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14good point sk89q, minecraft doesnt do much magic client server prediction, so it would be painfull
  2769. 12[16:08:24] * WALDO_ ([email protected]) Quit (Client Quit)
  2770. [16:08:24] 5[16:08:24]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14BUT we might look into only sending ores when a player is 'near them' (and the ore has no 'transparant block' next to it)
  2771. [16:08:26] 5[16:08:26]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14in fact, with little client logic, you can't really do prediction either
  2772. 12[16:08:28] * thebeatles8371_ ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
  2773. [16:08:39] 5[16:08:39]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14well it is pretty painful as is when your ping isn't that great
  2774. [16:08:39] 5[16:08:39]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14sk89q: most of the client prediction is on the movement
  2775. [16:08:44] 5[16:08:44]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14I know, but
  2776. [16:08:50] 5[16:08:50]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14moving would probably have to remain on the client and verified on the esrver as much as it can be
  2777. 12[16:08:50] * deasmi (~deasmi@2001:470:959a:0:e858:16a6:4173:7f12) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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  2779. [16:08:53] 5[16:08:53]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14when modders add their own features, they will need prediction for whatever they may add
  2780. [16:08:54] 5[16:08:54]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14to a point
  2781. [16:08:56] 5[16:08:56]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14ShaRose expanded functionality ;)
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  2783. 09[16:08:59] * ChanServ sets mode: +v Cojo
  2784. [16:09:00] 5[16:09:00]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14for that you just need things like friction, gravity, current impulse and calculate from there
  2785. 12[16:09:02] * ochenchi ([email protected]) Quit
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  2788. [16:09:13] 5[16:09:13]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14we need to add a scrollbar to controls screen also
  2789. 09[16:09:16] * tjb0607 ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2790. [16:09:17] 5[16:09:17]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14yes
  2791. [16:09:20] 5[16:09:20]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14please
  2792. [16:09:21] 5[16:09:21]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14and yes; one of the hardest things to code will be a 'semi-lag-free' client experience where the client is NOT in control of its own position
  2793. 12[16:09:25] * Sk8r2K10 ([email protected]) Quit (Client Quit)
  2794. [16:09:26] 5[16:09:26]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14client prediction wouldn't be bad
  2795. 12[16:09:30] * Stormweaver ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 202 seconds)
  2796. [16:09:31] 5[16:09:31]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14again, like source
  2797. [16:09:35] 5[16:09:35]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Jarvix: Correctly means doing occlusion queries on the GPU which means the client needs to be sent as much data as possible for it to figure out how to filter it which means someone doing xray could just turn the filter off
  2798. [16:09:36] 5[16:09:36]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Risugami: yes we plan to add all the default widgets to a UI lib of sorts
  2799. 09[16:09:36] * charap ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2800. [16:09:39] 5[16:09:39]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14Grum, sure is, the source engine took a long time to get it right
  2801. [16:09:41] 5[16:09:41]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14well a feature may not use movement in the world
  2802. 12[16:09:42] * Stary2001 ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  2803. [16:09:48] 5[16:09:48]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Corosus: we're not making an FPS
  2804. [16:09:48] 4[16:09:48] Nick Alert From Channel: #minecraftdev
  2805. [16:09:48] 5[16:09:48]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Mm ok, that is a no go.
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  2810. [16:10:02] 5[16:10:02]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14also source has the problems because it has to replay hitboxes back in time to calculate hits
  2811. 09[16:10:03] * Mystic_Gohan ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2812. [16:10:08] 5[16:10:08]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14(and people want to make headshots)
  2813. [16:10:09] 5[16:10:09]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14true
  2814. 09[16:10:12] * Sk8r2K10 ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2815. [16:10:17] 5[16:10:17]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14MC has no such problems
  2816. [16:10:18] 5[16:10:18]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14What about moving from chunks of 256blocks to chunks of 16 blocks in height and loading chunks in N radius (spherical) instead of circular.
  2817. 09[16:10:23] * Gabscap ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2818. [16:10:24] 5[16:10:24]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14well
  2819. [16:10:27] 5[16:10:27]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14It has been discussed many times before i know.
  2820. [16:10:29] 5[16:10:29]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14I wouldn't be totally against having that kind of thing in MC, combat is terrible :(
  2821. 09[16:10:30] * xzanthurus ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2822. [16:10:32] 5[16:10:32]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14if someone wants to make a counterstrike mod for minecraft
  2823. [16:10:35] 5[16:10:35]15->>2| 7RoyAwesome2 | 14they would Grum :P
  2824. [16:10:39] 5[16:10:39]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Jarvix: yes
  2825. 12[16:10:40] * Master7432 ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
  2826. [16:10:41] 5[16:10:41]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14RoyAwesome: yes
  2827. [16:10:43] 5[16:10:43]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14try hitting someone with an arrow on a server with any range, good luck
  2828. 12[16:10:43] * thaile4ever ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
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  2830. [16:10:45] 5[16:10:45]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Jarvix: 1.2 already does cubic chunks :P
  2831. [16:10:46] 5[16:10:46]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14though with minecrafts current system its easy to do stuff like hitting through walls since no verifyier system exist
  2832. [16:10:48] 5[16:10:48]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14yeah that is hard ShaRose
  2833. 12[16:10:54] * ASJoker ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: get satisfied! • :: core-networks.de ««« (Gamers.IRC) »»» gamersirc.net ::)
  2834. [16:10:59] 5[16:10:59]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Amaranth really? Anvil?
  2835. [16:11:00] 5[16:11:00]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Jarvix: 16x16x16 chunk sections
  2836. [16:11:08] 5[16:11:08]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14but one thing is that the client will have to do some sort of predictive emulation (lerp ftw) with the entities it has nearby
  2837. 09[16:11:11] * robinn57 ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2838. [16:11:13] 5[16:11:13]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14oh. nvm.
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  2841. [16:11:19] 5[16:11:19]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14spherical chunks work pretty well, although they do lead to a few special cases.
  2842. 12[16:11:27] * rikai ([email protected]) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  2843. [16:11:29] 5[16:11:29]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Jarvix: Are you sure you've developed anything that involved minecraft internals? :)
  2844. [16:11:29] 5[16:11:29]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14spherical? :P
  2845. [16:11:29] 5[16:11:29]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14you have to use a 2D chunk type also for things like biome mapping
  2846. [16:11:32] 5[16:11:32]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14err
  2847. [16:11:33] 5[16:11:33]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14sorry cubic
  2848. [16:11:39] 5[16:11:39]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14wasn't paying attention
  2849. [16:11:39] 5[16:11:39]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14yeah it has some problems
  2850. [16:11:40] 5[16:11:40]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Grum or reverse, where the server stores movement for entities for a second or two in the past
  2851. [16:11:43] 5[16:11:43]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14like light-map and heightmap
  2852. 12[16:11:46] * pridgeon2000 ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  2853. [16:11:48] 5[16:11:48]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14i use 32x32x32 chunks in my own engine...
  2854. 09[16:11:48] * rikai ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2855. [16:11:48] 5[16:11:48]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14yep
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  2857. [16:11:54] 5[16:11:54]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14yes, a N radius, not circular. not loading from bottom to top
  2858. [16:12:02] 5[16:12:02]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14ShaRose: yes perhaps but dont forget a source-engine doesnt have to do that or *ALL* entities; just for the players
  2859. [16:12:08] 5[16:12:08]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14we'd have to do that for *all* entities
  2860. [16:12:08] 5[16:12:08]15->>2| 7Searge-DP2 | 14Eloraam, I guess world generation is a problem, because chunks require neighboring chunks to exist in their populate phase
  2861. [16:12:11] 5[16:12:11]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14I think I've seen Grum wish for 32x32x32 a few times in the past
  2862. [16:12:11] 5[16:12:11]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14and i really do not think it matters that much
  2863. [16:12:15] 5[16:12:15]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Creates exception for air blocks.
  2864. 12[16:12:17] * orice ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  2865. [16:12:17] 5[16:12:17]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14air cubes*
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  2871. [16:12:49] 5[16:12:49]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Searge-DP: we can simply have 16^3 for storage and communicatio
  2872. 09[16:12:54] * LimeByte ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2873. [16:12:59] 5[16:12:59]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14and still have 128/256 high for now for generation
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  2875. [16:13:07] 5[16:13:07]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Grum could flag entities as requiring lerping and such :V
  2876. [16:13:12] 5[16:13:12]15->>2| 7Afforess|Bored_Away2 | 14One Word: Regions
  2877. 09[16:13:12] * ase34 ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2878. [16:13:15] 5[16:13:15]15->>2| 7Afforess|Bored_Away2 | 14ciao
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  2881. [16:13:21] 5[16:13:21]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14( michaell ) Wolvereness: I mean, pass this on to everyone, but this was a fantastic idea. I can't think of any game or games company in my past that has been this open with its community. This is awesome.
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  2886. [16:13:41] 5[16:13:41]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14thanks for the kind words, we'd like to continue doing this and more moving forward :)
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  2889. [16:13:58] 5[16:13:58]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Well said, Sir!
  2890. [16:14:03] 5[16:14:03]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14So anyone with any problem areas they can now think of?
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  2894. [16:14:25] 5[16:14:25]15->>2| 7Searge-DP2 | 14Grum, one other thing I thought about: if a player never manually changes anything in a chunk - do NOT save it, re-generate it next time if necessary - would reduce file size and allow chunks to generate "new ores" for example after updates even if they were explored before
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  2898. [16:14:29] 5[16:14:29]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14(besides permissions ./hide)
  2899. [16:14:30] 5[16:14:30]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14The only issue I have is how you dont want "singleplayer" mods
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  2902. [16:14:38] 5[16:14:38]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Well you didnt intend for them at first
  2903. [16:14:43] 5[16:14:43]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14not sure if your opinion has changed
  2904. 09[16:14:43] * John_Guant ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2905. [16:14:50] 5[16:14:50]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14lol
  2906. [16:14:51] 5[16:14:51]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Searge-DP that would make it really slow moving around though
  2907. 12[16:14:51] * teh_fish ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  2908. [16:15:06] 5[16:15:06]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14world sizes aren't really that big, and loading a chunk is far faster than generating it
  2909. [16:15:12] 5[16:15:12]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Searge-DP: This is similar to the model used in a few Minecraft clones. When a client connects, it's sent the code to /generate/ the world, then it is only sent the deltas from the original generation to the current state.
  2910. [16:15:13] 5[16:15:13]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Searge-DP: might throw the balance of ores of also; what if you have an untouched wall in your cave and now suddenly it turns coal :P
  2911. 12[16:15:13] * Nikondork_ ([email protected]) Quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
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  2913. [16:15:19] 5[16:15:19]15->>2| 7Searge-DP2 | 14ShaRose, not necessarily, the chunks can be cached in memory for some time
  2914. 12[16:15:23] * BCsiefert ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
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  2916. [16:15:27] 5[16:15:27]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14There will still be single player mods, they'll jsut be running on your local "server" that you're playing on by yourself... If I'm right?
  2917. [16:15:32] 5[16:15:32]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Searge-DP: So actual generation occurs on the client, and the server does nothing but store deltas.
  2918. [16:15:38] 5[16:15:38]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Xie, yes
  2919. [16:15:38] 5[16:15:38]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14TkTech: parts of the generation are not 100% the same (like shrubbery)
  2920. [16:15:40] 5[16:15:40]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Xie: I mean mods that only run on the client
  2921. 12[16:15:45] * zbegra ([email protected]) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  2922. [16:15:45] 5[16:15:45]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14such as my mod
  2923. [16:15:51] 5[16:15:51]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14or minimaps
  2924. [16:15:51] 5[16:15:51]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Searge-DP: I'd rather take the disk space hit over the CPU hit and lots of things that happen without the player's control would end up modifying the chunk anyway
  2925. [16:15:51] 5[16:15:51]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14medsouz: Sorry, I misunderstood
  2926. 09[16:15:54] * Nikondork_ ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2927. [16:15:54] 5[16:15:54]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14medsouz: yeah we need something for that
  2928. 09[16:15:54] * matejdro ([email protected]) has left #minecraftdev
  2929. [16:15:55] 5[16:15:55]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: I'm aware, it would require a fully deterministic generator.
  2930. [16:15:56] 5[16:15:56]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Searge-DP travel a few chunks over to a location, mine it etc, install some mods, walk back across "when did this giant ruin get here omg"
  2931. [16:16:01] 5[16:16:01]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Xie: I worded it badly, its fine
  2932. 09[16:16:15] * BestTux ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2933. 12[16:16:15] * rikai ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 204 seconds)
  2934. [16:16:15] 5[16:16:15]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14well, a client API does not make sense when there is almost no code
  2935. 12[16:16:25] * ShareDVI_-_ ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  2936. [16:16:39] 5[16:16:39]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Sure it does, for what medsouz intends to do. Mostly UI based stuff, right?
  2937. [16:16:42] 5[16:16:42]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14We weren't considering that, but this discussion has made it clear that we will probably have to provide the means to do whatever work the client has left over when we dumb it down through an API
  2938. [16:16:48] 5[16:16:48]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14TkTech: Doing that would also mean giving up on stopping xray in any form forever too :P
  2939. [16:16:50] 5[16:16:50]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14Jarvix, it definitely does
  2940. [16:16:50] 5[16:16:50]15->>2| 7Searge-DP2 | 14Amaranth, I do not care about disk size either, but assume you add some new mods, now you suddenly have to travel hundreds of chunks before you reach unexplored areas where the new mod is active
  2941. [16:16:50] 5[16:16:50]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Xie: correct
  2942. 09[16:16:54] * BobbyHill ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2943. [16:16:55] 5[16:16:55]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14mostly rendering and player actions and such
  2944. 09[16:16:58] * wizjany__ ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2945. [16:17:06] 5[16:17:06]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14for UI yes.
  2946. [16:17:06] 5[16:17:06]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Amaranth: It will always happen, no matter what you do.
  2947. 12[16:17:06] * UltraMoogleMan ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 380 seconds)
  2948. [16:17:08] 5[16:17:08]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14oh, another thing is mods that sort the player's inventory and that at the press of a button
  2949. 09[16:17:08] * wizjany__ ([email protected]) has left #minecraftdev
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  2952. [16:17:15] 5[16:17:15]15->>2| 7Cojo2 | 14Jarvix, you can't have a minimap for just one user, or what medsouz does, and i'm sure there are other things that would apply to this case as well
  2953. 09[16:17:16] * wizjany ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2954. [16:17:19] 5[16:17:19]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14that kind of thing that people don't think of
  2955. 12[16:17:20] * Stormweaver ([email protected]) Quit (Client Quit)
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  2957. 12[16:17:26] * garrettt3t ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  2958. [16:17:26] 5[16:17:26]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14medsouz what does your mod do again?
  2959. 09[16:17:27] * WackoMcGoose ([email protected]) has left #minecraftdev
  2960. [16:17:27] 5[16:17:27]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Searge: That is a good point
  2961. 12[16:17:28] * Poiasdope ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 204 seconds)
  2962. 09[16:17:28] * Dracocrafter ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2963. [16:17:30] 5[16:17:30]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14TkTech: Nah, with plugins you can at least make it useless for finding ores
  2964. [16:17:30] 5[16:17:30]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Searge-DP: we could in theory try to mark chunks as being 'untouched'
  2965. 12[16:17:32] * SydMontague ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: get satisfied! • :: www.unitedservers.de ««« (Gamers.IRC) »»» gamersirc.net ::)
  2966. 09[16:17:36] * kumpelblase2 ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2967. [16:17:36] 5[16:17:36]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Jarvix: it is a friends list mod
  2968. [16:17:39] 5[16:17:39]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14TkTech: They can still find players and such, sure
  2969. 09[16:17:39] * zbegra ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2970. 09[16:17:43] * cookednoodles ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2971. [16:17:43] 5[16:17:43]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14shows you what servers your friends are playing on
  2972. [16:17:45] 5[16:17:45]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14a chunk delta system would reduce bandwidth. hmm.
  2973. [16:17:45] 5[16:17:45]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Ah ok.
  2974. [16:17:52] 5[16:17:52]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14I'm planning on adding more stuff though
  2975. [16:17:54] 5[16:17:54]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Non-gameplay related mods.
  2976. 09[16:17:55] * Nickshelton80 ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2977. [16:17:56] 5[16:17:56]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Amaranth: Every game ever has an "X-ray" mod, and the only way to even try to stop it is to A. not send the data (bad), or B. Use separate program to check for modifications.
  2978. [16:17:57] 5[16:17:57]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14yes
  2979. [16:18:03] 5[16:18:03]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Risugami I thought it already did deltas (sort of)
  2980. [16:18:03] 5[16:18:03]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Risugami: at the cost of LOTS and LOTS of cpu (or memory)
  2981. [16:18:06] 5[16:18:06]15->>2| 7Searge-DP2 | 14Grum, you can even store them but untouched flag, maybe combined with a version number, will allow this
  2982. [16:18:09] 5[16:18:09]15->>2| 7LexManos2 | 14Having a mark if a mod has had a chance to generate its ores in the chunk would be a good idea, but having things like new structures grow would be odd :P
  2983. [16:18:17] 5[16:18:17]15->>2| 7Searge-DP2 | 14^best of two worlds :)
  2984. 09[16:18:20] * Val451 ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2985. [16:18:21] 5[16:18:21]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14TkTech and programs that do checks are hacked
  2986. [16:18:22] 5[16:18:22]15->>2| 7LexManos2 | 14Ores are a seperate case from other chunk generation mods do
  2987. [16:18:28] 5[16:18:28]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Also given the seed people can figure out where everything useful is without going near it: strongholds, well placed dungeons, etc
  2988. [16:18:31] 5[16:18:31]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14mmm
  2989. [16:18:32] 5[16:18:32]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Grum: how about you add that feature but make it optional?
  2990. [16:18:34] 5[16:18:34]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14I just want to put this out there, but IMO a mailing list or forum might be better for this overall -- then people can chime in when it's relevant and don't have to be here the entire time, and everyone has time to iron out their comments before posting it
  2991. 09[16:18:38] * Erus_Iluvatar ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2992. 09[16:18:45] * clearlyspam23 ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  2993. [16:18:49] 5[16:18:49]15->>2| 7sk89q2 | 14have*
  2994. 12[16:18:50] * Firestar ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 202 seconds)
  2995. [16:18:51] 5[16:18:51]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14yeah
  2996. [16:18:52] 5[16:18:52]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14hmm this is true
  2997. [16:18:52] 5[16:18:52]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14So its there for people who are willing to have extra CPU usage
  2998. [16:18:57] 5[16:18:57]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14I'd still like a irc room though
  2999. [16:18:57] 5[16:18:57]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14medsouz: some things are not that easily made optional hehe
  3000. 12[16:18:59] * BlockCat ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  3001. [16:19:01] 5[16:19:01]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14yea, we know sk89q, we'll do that eventually
  3002. 09[16:19:12] * Thaery ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3003. [16:19:12] 5[16:19:12]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14what about AND meetings (shorter than this one) and a ML?
  3004. 12[16:19:15] * Fenhl ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: SQUIRREL!)
  3005. [16:19:17] 5[16:19:17]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Grum: if(on){new code}else{old code}
  3006. 09[16:19:20] * Fenhl ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3007. [16:19:22] 5[16:19:22]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14but I like the bouncing back and forth we're getting discussing certain topics right now
  3008. [16:19:25] 5[16:19:25]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14EvilSeph: mailing list! :)
  3009. 12[16:19:25] * fer97 ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
  3010. [16:19:26] 5[16:19:26]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14perhaps with publicly visible logging to the forum server, so interesting things can be transcribed
  3011. [16:19:27] 5[16:19:27]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14medsouz: like all bad code; yes
  3012. 09[16:19:30] * mib_yu95q0 ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3013. [16:19:31] 5[16:19:31]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14:P
  3014. [16:19:34] 5[16:19:34]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14If its a forum I'll check it maybe once a week
  3015. 09[16:19:35] * zml2008 ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3016. [16:19:35] 5[16:19:35]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Maybe
  3017. 09[16:19:40] * s1dev ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3018. 12[16:19:45] * Colecf ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi)
  3019. [16:19:45] 5[16:19:45]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14i have the same problem
  3020. [16:19:50] 5[16:19:50]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14i am heavily allergic to forums
  3021. 12[16:19:52] * celmin (~celticmin@CPE185933f90d4d-CM185933f90d4a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) Quit (Quit: KABOOM! It seems that I have exploded. Please wait while I reinstall the universe.)
  3022. [16:19:54] 5[16:19:54]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Amaranth: You can hide the seed from the client, I'm pretty sure
  3023. 12[16:19:59] * wizjany_ ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 204 seconds)
  3024. 12[16:20:00] * orgest ([email protected]) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  3025. [16:20:04] 5[16:20:04]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14I generally check my threads and that's it on mcf
  3026. [16:20:08] 5[16:20:08]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14i cannot spend 5 hours reading them; i do not mind reading excepts in pullrequests or wikis
  3027. [16:20:08] 5[16:20:08]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14unless someone links me something
  3028. 09[16:20:09] * orgest ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3029. [16:20:12] 5[16:20:12]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Xie: Not if you want to send the client the seed so it can generate chunks and you can send it a delta
  3030. [16:20:22] 5[16:20:22]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14Problem areas: You have listed months and months, probably years of work, are you going to be prioritizing the areas that will be implemented openly with community / blocking out stuff that does not really need to be implemented (or sticking them into the all known future section)?
  3031. 12[16:20:23] * ase34 ([email protected]) Quit
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  3033. [16:20:26] 5[16:20:26]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14excerpts
  3034. [16:20:27] 5[16:20:27]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14actually... you can just send the seed for single chunks
  3035. 09[16:20:30] * Firestar ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3036. 12[16:20:33] * dxfps ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
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  3038. [16:20:36] 5[16:20:36]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Amaranth: Aren't chunks being generated by the server?
  3039. 12[16:20:37] * Danoth ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
  3040. [16:20:38] 5[16:20:38]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Risugami: we rather not send the seed to the client :p
  3041. [16:20:45] 5[16:20:45]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Risugami yeah, but people could use that for xrays and such
  3042. [16:20:45] 5[16:20:45]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14has quite some impact on cheating
  3043. [16:20:46] 5[16:20:46]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14I fully recognise that IRC is useful for some things, but not other things. I will definitely want to provide other resources for us to use that don't require us to all be on at the same time
  3044. [16:20:48] 5[16:20:48]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Amaranth: Wait, I'm with you, nvm.
  3045. [16:20:49] 5[16:20:49]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Kulttuuri: I don't think they've listed anything that would take more than 6 months
  3046. 12[16:20:53] * wawawait ([email protected]) Quit (Client Quit)
  3047. [16:20:53] 5[16:20:53]15->>2| 7LexManos2 | 14The other problem is, mods who don't use the seeds properly :P
  3048. 12[16:20:55] * LimeByte ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
  3049. [16:20:56] 5[16:20:56]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Maybe not to be 100% but to be useful
  3050. [16:21:00] 5[16:21:00]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14would prevent the client discovering strongholds at least
  3051. 09[16:21:11] * Skybreaker ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3052. [16:21:15] 5[16:21:15]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14ores not so much
  3053. 12[16:21:17] * LC10094 ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
  3054. [16:21:19] 5[16:21:19]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Amaranth: I don't believe deltas is the intended approach... Or am I wrong?
  3055. [16:21:22] 5[16:21:22]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14It'd be nice if there were some specific code quality guidelines that mojang had for modders to follow
  3056. [16:21:30] 5[16:21:30]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14lets just keep deltas as an option
  3057. [16:21:34] 5[16:21:34]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Xie: Deltas is the discussion happening right now :P
  3058. [16:21:37] 5[16:21:37]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14but really, no-one running a big server has problems with bandwidth
  3059. [16:21:39] 5[16:21:39]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14its all in CPU
  3060. 12[16:21:40] * Guest____ ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
  3061. [16:21:43] 5[16:21:43]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14so its a question of what we cater for
  3062. 09[16:21:48] * Radobot_ ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3063. [16:21:49] 5[16:21:49]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Amaranth: Sorry, after 2 and a half hours my head hurts reading this tiny writing :3
  3064. [16:21:58] 5[16:21:58]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14most of the work will be preparing for an API - we need a strong foundation to work on or everything will suffer
  3065. [16:22:10] 5[16:22:10]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Xie you can raise the text size in your client (probably)
  3066. 09[16:22:17] * Skybreaker ([email protected]) has left #minecraftdev
  3067. 12[16:22:20] * Wiian ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
  3068. [16:22:25] 5[16:22:25]15->>2| 7Searge-DP2 | 14Grum, bandwidth is definitely always more important, no one cares if the server has 10mbit or 100mbit if the client only has 1 mbit
  3069. [16:22:27] 5[16:22:27]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14I was being figurative, but thank you XD
  3070. [16:22:29] 5[16:22:29]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14yes; you cannot run a server if oyu have poopy upload; but there is only so much you can do with that; minecraft itself is unique in that it does requires to send large amount of data across
  3071. 09[16:22:33] * JackWS ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3072. [16:22:33] 5[16:22:33]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14EvilSeph: The API foundation and distribution go together, unfortunately, since one will influence how the other is written.
  3073. 12[16:22:36] * nanometer ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
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  3079. [16:22:50] 5[16:22:50]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Searge-DP there's a limit to it
  3080. [16:22:51] 5[16:22:51]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Searge-DP: yes so maybe we should look into not sending 16^3s that arent visible
  3081. [16:22:54] 5[16:22:54]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14TkTech, yes, of course
  3082. 12[16:22:58] * hihu ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
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  3088. [16:23:24] 5[16:23:24]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14because really. why send blocks at y0 if you are at sealevel running around on some desert
  3089. 09[16:23:24] * YoshiiXD ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3090. [16:23:31] 5[16:23:31]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14yeah
  3091. [16:23:34] 5[16:23:34]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Aren't these Minecraft engine concerns rather than API concerns?
  3092. 09[16:23:35] * korikisulda ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3093. [16:23:39] 5[16:23:39]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14yes
  3094. 09[16:23:47] * toxicwolf ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3095. [16:23:51] 5[16:23:51]15->>2| 7Searge-DP2 | 14I've tried to play minecraft with 512kbit connection once, definitely not playable
  3096. [16:23:51] 5[16:23:51]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14omg ban u lot for asking for features! =D
  3097. 09[16:23:55] * deasmi (~deasmi@2001:470:959a:0:e858:16a6:4173:7f12) has joined #minecraftdev
  3098. [16:23:55] 5[16:23:55]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Grum: That'd take at least 4 rays cast from the player to each chunk section
  3099. [16:23:59] 5[16:23:59]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: I mentioned earlier that it would probably be impractical to do properly, since CPU is already a bottleneck, and ray tracing or the alternatives are not cheap
  3100. [16:23:59] 5[16:23:59]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Don't get me wrong, epically cool that you're taking community feedback on that too ^_^
  3101. 09[16:24:02] * missingpiece ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3102. [16:24:08] 5[16:24:08]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Amaranth: 3
  3103. [16:24:08] 5[16:24:08]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Amaranth: Garh, don't ninja me :)
  3104. [16:24:15] 5[16:24:15]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Searge tell me about it
  3105. 09[16:24:16] * MineCrak ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3106. [16:24:23] 5[16:24:23]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 143?
  3107. [16:24:29] 5[16:24:29]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14i have some ideas on how to do it
  3108. 12[16:24:30] * Ocram ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: —I-n-v-i-s-i-o-n— 3.2 (July '10))
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  3112. [16:24:40] 5[16:24:40]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Amaranth: no idea; depends on implementation
  3113. [16:24:45] 5[16:24:45]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14ok. api.... what about setting plugin entry point in the manifest file
  3114. [16:24:45] 5[16:24:45]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14but at most you can see 3 faces; so why 4? ;D
  3115. [16:24:49] 5[16:24:49]15->>2| 7Searge-DP2 | 14ShaRose, i just did :p
  3116. 09[16:24:55] * missingpiece ([email protected]) has left #minecraftdev
  3117. 09[16:24:59] * Searge-DP is now known as Searge
  3118. 12[16:25:00] * Biohazard ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
  3119. [16:25:06] 5[16:25:06]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Risugami: Unlikely
  3120. 09[16:25:12] * Skraay ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
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  3122. 12[16:25:22] * po5 ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: www.exomc.com)
  3123. [16:25:24] 5[16:25:24]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Grum: I was talking about the 3 corners closest to you
  3124. [16:25:26] 5[16:25:26]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Risugami: I would recommend a consistent OO model for the plugin itself, which includes a register hook
  3125. 12[16:25:28] * nwxxeh ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: leaving)
  3126. [16:25:33] 5[16:25:33]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Grum: Although that would fail too...
  3127. 09[16:25:35] * crazyqnt1 ([email protected]) has left #minecraftdev
  3128. 12[16:25:42] * Thaery ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  3129. [16:25:49] 5[16:25:49]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14wouls still need to search for an entry point otherwise
  3130. [16:25:54] 5[16:25:54]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14*would
  3131. 09[16:25:58] * interrupt ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3132. [16:25:58] 5[16:25:58]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14It might be interesting to have a mod info text file or something
  3133. [16:26:01] 5[16:26:01]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14TkTech: well you would just annotate your class and the loader would find it and load it?
  3134. [16:26:05] 5[16:26:05]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14with the classname for each interface it uses
  3135. [16:26:06] 5[16:26:06]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14err, 4 corners
  3136. [16:26:10] 5[16:26:10]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14assuming it implements a certain interface?
  3137. 12[16:26:13] * ilovekintoki ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  3138. [16:26:15] 5[16:26:15]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: Yup, tons of different ways of doing this.
  3139. 12[16:26:15] * RaustBlackDragon ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
  3140. [16:26:15] 5[16:26:15]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14that hs stuff like 'onEnable' etc?
  3141. [16:26:21] 5[16:26:21]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14of course, they'd need to be packaged correctly :S
  3142. [16:26:24] 5[16:26:24]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14oh! one thing
  3143. [16:26:26] 5[16:26:26]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: I'm leaning towards the interface approach instead of Risugami's manifest approach
  3144. [16:26:27] 5[16:26:27]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Localisation!
  3145. 12[16:26:30] * YoshiiXD ([email protected]) Quit (Client Quit)
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  3148. [16:26:43] 5[16:26:43]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14i think that *noone* wants to support 500 languages in their plugin
  3149. [16:26:48] 5[16:26:48]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14Risugami, you could as well reflect the classes and require the entry point class to implement a certain interface
  3150. [16:26:50] 5[16:26:50]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14I DO!
  3151. [16:26:53] 5[16:26:53]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14so i was thinking to make all the localisation like a texturepack
  3152. 12[16:26:54] * njf042 ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
  3153. 12[16:26:58] * zbegra ([email protected]) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  3154. [16:27:01] 5[16:27:01]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Grum agreed
  3155. [16:27:01] 5[16:27:01]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Ingame translator
  3156. 09[16:27:05] * redstonehelper ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
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  3159. [16:27:16] 5[16:27:16]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14plugins could include localization packs for whatever language if they need to
  3160. [16:27:16] 5[16:27:16]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14you can provide your own; and the plugin would have to be supplied with at least an english locale
  3161. 09[16:27:21] * Skraay ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3162. [16:27:23] 5[16:27:23]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14yeagh
  3163. 09[16:27:26] * jjsevel9 ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3164. [16:27:27] 5[16:27:27]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14Grum: that sounds fine
  3165. [16:27:27] 5[16:27:27]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Huge list with standard texts, can be reused. If not available or provided, english is used.
  3166. [16:27:34] 5[16:27:34]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Jarvix: God no!
  3167. 09[16:27:34] * AndChat- ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3168. 09[16:27:38] * kumpelblase2 ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3169. [16:27:38] 5[16:27:38]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Jarvix: no
  3170. [16:27:39] 5[16:27:39]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14NO
  3171. 09[16:27:45] * kumpelblase2 ([email protected]) has left #minecraftdev
  3172. [16:27:48] 5[16:27:48]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14>.<
  3173. 09[16:27:52] * P3R35AN5 ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3174. [16:27:53] 5[16:27:53]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14lol
  3175. [16:27:55] 5[16:27:55]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14because even if the sentence is the same depending on the context you might need another translation
  3176. [16:27:57] 5[16:27:57]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Why not?
  3177. [16:28:04] 5[16:28:04]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Jarvix: You have never done localization before, have you? :)
  3178. [16:28:08] 5[16:28:08]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Why would every plugin need to provide the translation of 'OK'
  3179. 12[16:28:08] * AndChat- ([email protected]) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  3180. 12[16:28:09] * wizjany ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 202 seconds)
  3181. [16:28:10] 5[16:28:10]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Singular and plural, for example.
  3182. 12[16:28:12] * officerpup ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
  3183. [16:28:13] 5[16:28:13]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Plural forms, context specific translations, etc
  3184. [16:28:18] 5[16:28:18]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14i am not talking about ingame translator, that was a joke.
  3185. [16:28:22] 5[16:28:22]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Jarvix localization wouldn't have to be mod specific
  3186. [16:28:28] 5[16:28:28]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14ingame translator is not even 100% a bad idea
  3187. [16:28:28] 5[16:28:28]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: Can I recommend looking at how Qt does localizations?
  3188. [16:28:35] 5[16:28:35]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14make it a plugin ;)
  3189. [16:28:35] 5[16:28:35]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Localization needs to be _string_ specific
  3190. 09[16:28:35] * Traxto ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3191. [16:28:35] 5[16:28:35]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14if you want it to say OK set the localization string as "ok"
  3192. [16:28:41] 5[16:28:41]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14TkTech: Doesn't Qt use gettext?
  3193. [16:28:41] 5[16:28:41]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14TkTech: yes
  3194. 09[16:28:44] * zbegra ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
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  3197. [16:29:01] 5[16:29:01]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14i doubt there will be many mods supporting like 20 languages later
  3198. 09[16:29:09] * Nanofus ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3199. [16:29:18] 5[16:29:18]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14no you will ahve the popular ones in like 20 languages
  3200. 12[16:29:19] * GreatAndRandom ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  3201. [16:29:30] 5[16:29:30]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14also for minecraft itself
  3202. [16:29:32] 5[16:29:32]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14I think there should be a localization API. just a database of translations available already usable for plugins.
  3203. [16:29:40] 5[16:29:40]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14i think it is beneficial if we stop shipping the localisations
  3204. 09[16:29:47] * ElTrazz ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3205. 12[16:29:50] * bratpilz ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  3206. [16:29:51] 5[16:29:51]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Is it alright if I post a pastebin link of an idea someone wants so share?
  3207. [16:29:54] 5[16:29:54]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14just do english and have other people make their own favorite language (host them on the repo orso?)
  3208. [16:29:55] 5[16:29:55]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Amaranth: No, it uses its own interface and Qt Linguist
  3209. [16:29:57] 5[16:29:57]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Amaranth: http://doc.qt.nokia.com/4.7-snapshot/qtranslator.html
  3210. [16:30:01] 5[16:30:01]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14translations of OK and Cancel etc, and other popular ones can be in this database.
  3211. 09[16:30:05] * ezekielelin ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3212. [16:30:10] 5[16:30:10]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14TkTech: TIL, how does it compare to the gettext workflow?
  3213. [16:30:14] 5[16:30:14]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Jarvix: those could be GUI elements
  3214. 09[16:30:18] * CoatRack ([email protected]) has left #minecraftdev
  3215. [16:30:23] 5[16:30:23]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Yes...
  3216. 09[16:30:25] * Terradominik ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3217. [16:30:28] 5[16:30:28]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14guys, guys, real modders would already start working on a mod that connects to google translate :p
  3218. [16:30:28] 5[16:30:28]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Amaranth: Vastly better, including support for introspection to create the strings needing translation.
  3219. [16:30:29] 5[16:30:29]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14What is your point?
  3220. [16:30:38] 5[16:30:38]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Searge not allowed by ToS
  3221. [16:30:39] 5[16:30:39]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Amaranth: And Qt Linguist is a full GUI for doing it
  3222. 12[16:30:45] * fish|phone ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 204 seconds)
  3223. 09[16:30:47] * toxicwolf ([email protected]) has left #minecraftdev
  3224. [16:30:50] 5[16:30:50]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Jarvix: If you want an OK button use the OK button widget, for example
  3225. [16:30:51] 5[16:30:51]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14In terms of "communication": we'd like to provide nightly builds for people to develop against, 'preview' builds before an update comes out so people can develop against the preview to prepare for the update and similar things to make it easier for developers to maintain their work, though none of this has been decided upon yet
  3226. [16:30:51] 5[16:30:51]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Searge: rofl
  3227. [16:30:54] 5[16:30:54]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14google would blacklist anything automatic
  3228. [16:30:55] 5[16:30:55]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14tada, automatically translated
  3229. [16:30:57] 5[16:30:57]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14medsouz: post link
  3230. [16:30:59] 5[16:30:59]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Searge: yeah if you put your client onto a certain language and it notices missign things
  3231. [16:31:03] 5[16:31:03]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14<hunterboerner_> http://pastebin.com/wHHBFB0Z
  3232. 09[16:31:03] * Marco2216 ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3233. [16:31:05] 5[16:31:05]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Amaranth what about the chat messages by plugins. etc.
  3234. [16:31:06] 5[16:31:06]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14we should have a client plugin that tries to translate them in google ;)
  3235. 09[16:31:09] * Viper ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3236. [16:31:13] 5[16:31:13]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14i am not talking GUI only. Were just examples
  3237. 12[16:31:24] * charap ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  3238. [16:31:25] 5[16:31:25]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14EvilSeph: I assume available via S3, with the bucket manifest enabled?
  3239. [16:31:31] 5[16:31:31]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Jarvix: If the message is more than one word long you need a specific translation
  3240. [16:31:38] 5[16:31:38]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14'Create a new' + 'chest'
  3241. [16:31:44] 5[16:31:44]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14EvilSeph: At the moment we have to do some work to find new JARs, would be nice if there was a system that published their presence consistently.
  3242. [16:31:45] 5[16:31:45]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14hunterboerner: massive overkill to go into that right now
  3243. 09[16:31:46] * Power ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3244. 12[16:31:54] * mister_person ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
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  3246. [16:31:59] 5[16:31:59]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14we might not even allow 3rd party repos because of legalese
  3247. [16:32:00] 5[16:32:00]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14i can see your point it that it might collide for some languages.
  3248. [16:32:07] 5[16:32:07]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Jarvix: Even one word is wrong really because an english word may be used in several different contexts while in another language there are different words for each of those
  3249. 09[16:32:12] * almosted ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3250. 12[16:32:12] * Laira ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 190 seconds)
  3251. [16:32:15] 5[16:32:15]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14EvilSeph: if its like the system bukkit has, sounds goid
  3252. [16:32:16] 5[16:32:16]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14With regards to translations, we've been kicking around the idea of having them as packages people download so it is clear that we don't manage them (we don't, the community does) and a Minecraft update isn't needed just to change the language files.
  3253. 12[16:32:25] * aidancbrady ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  3254. [16:32:35] 5[16:32:35]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14TkTech, I am hoping to have it all centered around the dev HUB
  3255. [16:32:38] 5[16:32:38]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14EvilSeph: A translation would be a plugin like any other?
  3256. [16:32:43] 5[16:32:43]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14I'd be fine with language packs
  3257. [16:32:44] 5[16:32:44]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14If you've not actually done localization work before you should not try to invent some way to do it, it is incredibly more complex than you can possibly imagine
  3258. [16:32:49] 5[16:32:49]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Amaranth yes my thought too. But isnt it better than nothing?
  3259. [16:33:00] 5[16:33:00]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14also one thing to keep in mind; right now we have sortof held back with the amount of updates we're doing
  3260. [16:33:11] 5[16:33:11]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14doing a release every week would truly screw up almost everyone in this room with +v
  3261. [16:33:11] 5[16:33:11]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14"Create a new" + "chest" is completely broken
  3262. [16:33:21] 5[16:33:21]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Jarvix: Nothing is better than a shitty solution :)
  3263. [16:33:28] 5[16:33:28]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Language packs sounds good
  3264. [16:33:29] 5[16:33:29]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14TkTech hehe
  3265. [16:33:30] 5[16:33:30]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Jarvix: A bad solution doesn't go away without effort.
  3266. [16:33:37] 5[16:33:37]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Amaranth: "Create a new %1" and "Chest"
  3267. [16:33:39] 5[16:33:39]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14ok, question someone requested me to ask: will there be a central server list of public servers?
  3268. 12[16:33:40] * Skraay ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
  3269. 09[16:33:43] * Ritonda ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3270. [16:33:51] 5[16:33:51]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Jarvix: "Create a new chest" may not translate the same as "Create a new mob spawner"
  3271. [16:33:51] 5[16:33:51]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14that would be cool
  3272. [16:33:53] 5[16:33:53]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Searge: completely offtopic but it would be nice
  3273. 09[16:33:59] * Fiddy_ ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3274. [16:33:59] 5[16:33:59]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: Okay, now do "Create <N> new %s"
  3275. [16:33:59] 5[16:33:59]15->>2| 7DV8FromTheWorld2 | 14you could see them when someone does /publish?
  3276. [16:34:04] 5[16:34:04]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: Now do that for singular and plural case
  3277. 09[16:34:05] * NinthWorld ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3278. [16:34:06] 5[16:34:06]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Amaranth in latin it wouldnt.
  3279. 12[16:34:07] * chausser ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: chausser)
  3280. [16:34:13] 5[16:34:13]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14Grum, i know, but I just got some bonus points for asking it, now back to topic
  3281. 09[16:34:16] * Skidoodle ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
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  3283. 12[16:34:18] * Firestar ([email protected]) Quit
  3284. [16:34:20] 5[16:34:20]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Tech: yes hard :p
  3285. [16:34:20] 5[16:34:20]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14TkTech, I'm not sure about it being a plugin..but some other resource that is plug and play, sure
  3286. [16:34:27] 5[16:34:27]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14I guess you could say they'd be the same...
  3287. [16:34:28] 5[16:34:28]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Nor in italian indeed.
  3288. 12[16:34:31] * BestTux ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: http://i.imgur.com/Y7wti.jpg)
  3289. [16:34:37] 5[16:34:37]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14TkTech: Don't forget languages where one, two, and many are different words
  3290. 09[16:34:39] * ltouroumov ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3291. [16:34:43] 5[16:34:43]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14and etc
  3292. [16:34:52] 5[16:34:52]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14we could also not care for that
  3293. [16:34:56] 5[16:34:56]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14or languages where sentence structure is reversed
  3294. [16:34:57] 5[16:34:57]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14and simply support english ;)
  3295. 12[16:35:00] * GamontCZ_ ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  3296. [16:35:22] 5[16:35:22]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14doing true/proper localisation is haarrrrd
  3297. 12[16:35:24] * Terradominik ([email protected]) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  3298. [16:35:25] 5[16:35:25]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14one can move around the dynamic parts
  3299. [16:35:25] 5[16:35:25]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Ideally you'd not have anything dynamic in the string you want to translate
  3300. [16:35:34] 5[16:35:34]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14yup
  3301. [16:35:40] 5[16:35:40]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Make a %1 => %1 fhw djw
  3302. 09[16:35:56] * Thaery_ ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3303. [16:36:00] 5[16:36:00]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Jarvix: you just missed all the problems that gives
  3304. 12[16:36:02] * ElTrazz ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
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  3306. [16:36:08] 5[16:36:08]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14ok; so how should we proceed from here?
  3307. [16:36:18] 5[16:36:18]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14We can also provide courses in english so they can understand english in plugins (jk)
  3308. [16:36:28] 5[16:36:28]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Grum yes, i already admitted that.
  3309. 12[16:36:28] * ofrire1 ([email protected]) Quit
  3310. [16:36:38] 5[16:36:38]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14So, summary: Translation, nice to have, should be module and made clear that it's provided by third parties. Likely available via the same mechanism as plugins.
  3311. 09[16:36:39] * shadowjay1 ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3312. [16:36:40] 5[16:36:40]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14we need to collect 'I want to do this, how can I do this.' and then figure out ways to do these things with an API
  3313. 09[16:36:40] * BR3TON ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3314. [16:36:43] 5[16:36:43]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Agreed on that summary?
  3315. 09[16:36:46] * Guest57717 ([email protected]) has left #minecraftdev
  3316. [16:36:46] 5[16:36:46]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14What about the event/hook system
  3317. [16:36:47] 5[16:36:47]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14TkTech: yes
  3318. 12[16:36:50] * Power ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
  3319. [16:36:51] 5[16:36:51]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14TkTech, yes
  3320. [16:36:51] 5[16:36:51]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Grum would entities and such be able to access internal world states and such, or would that be abstracted away
  3321. [16:36:53] 5[16:36:53]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Jarvix: actualyl .. good one
  3322. 09[16:36:58] * Haz ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3323. [16:36:59] 5[16:36:59]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14how will a plugin be noticed of changes
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  3327. [16:37:09] 5[16:37:09]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14player movement, invenotry opening, and so on
  3328. [16:37:09] 5[16:37:09]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14'hooks' or 'callbacks' are quite limited
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  3332. [16:37:20] 5[16:37:20]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14I like hooks.
  3333. [16:37:25] 5[16:37:25]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14i like events
  3334. 12[16:37:26] * victorzimmer ([email protected]) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  3335. [16:37:29] 5[16:37:29]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14^
  3336. [16:37:30] 5[16:37:30]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14I thought so
  3337. [16:37:33] 5[16:37:33]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14events are the best shit ever
  3338. 12[16:37:35] * Thaery ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
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  3340. [16:37:42] 5[16:37:42]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Kiloku brought this to my attention, http://translation.steampowered.com/ - I've never heard of it so I'm not sure how it works, but someone here might have experience?
  3341. [16:37:45] 5[16:37:45]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14But events are the only same way to let multiple plugins cooperate on something
  3342. [16:37:53] 5[16:37:53]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Ok, events. They are more flexible.
  3343. [16:37:53] 5[16:37:53]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14s/same/sane/
  3344. [16:37:54] 5[16:37:54]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14new to me as well
  3345. 12[16:38:03] * Marco2216 ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
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  3348. [16:38:17] 5[16:38:17]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14actually, I think we already provide that through the crowdsourcing of translations?
  3349. 12[16:38:19] * Pohy ([email protected]) Quit
  3350. 09[16:38:26] * latexink (~AtomBomb@2001:470:8b2d:804:f66d:4ff:fe09:b633) has left #minecraftdev
  3351. [16:38:27] 5[16:38:27]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14yes and see what gets us that
  3352. [16:38:31] 5[16:38:31]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14i think yes
  3353. [16:38:47] 5[16:38:47]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14we get some nigger-shit in there and we end up having to apologize to the world for something we truly do not care for (not the fact that someone abused it; but the language itself)
  3354. 12[16:38:49] * Artemu ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Leaving.)
  3355. 12[16:38:50] * Haz ([email protected]) Quit (Client Quit)
  3356. [16:39:00] 5[16:39:00]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14I believe two cases of racism in the translations?
  3357. [16:39:05] 5[16:39:05]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14yeah
  3358. [16:39:10] 5[16:39:10]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14and a ton more of bad translations
  3359. [16:39:16] 5[16:39:16]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14that just take taime
  3360. [16:39:24] 5[16:39:24]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14There are some racist looking things in the translations right now still :P
  3361. [16:39:25] 5[16:39:25]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14*time; so that is why is suggest to do it like texturepacks
  3362. [16:39:33] 5[16:39:33]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14(taime sounds like how the CEO of apple would pronounce Time)
  3363. [16:39:35] 5[16:39:35]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14mmm
  3364. [16:39:38] 5[16:39:38]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14EvilSeph: It will depend on how you want to support translations.
  3365. 09[16:39:38] * redScarf ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3366. [16:39:39] 5[16:39:39]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14make someone else responsible for thme; the only people who will pick it up will actually care
  3367. [16:39:40] 5[16:39:40]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14(Tim COok)
  3368. [16:39:42] 5[16:39:42]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14so problem solved =)
  3369. [16:39:52] 5[16:39:52]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14EvilSeph: There are popular web services for crowd-sourcing translations in the get text format, for exmaple
  3370. [16:39:53] 5[16:39:53]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14TkTech, the current system is just a headache for us
  3371. 09[16:39:56] * Guest ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3372. 09[16:40:05] * Akatana ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3373. [16:40:08] 5[16:40:08]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14the ideal solution is community contributed language packs
  3374. [16:40:10] 5[16:40:10]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14could make it so that translation isn't QUITE like a plugin though
  3375. 09[16:40:15] * mmmfrieddough ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3376. 12[16:40:16] * jjsevel9 ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
  3377. [16:40:18] 5[16:40:18]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14TkTech: launchpad :D
  3378. [16:40:20] 5[16:40:20]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14maybe it should be a special case where it's sort of like git
  3379. [16:40:22] 5[16:40:22]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14EvilSeph: Indeed, fully agreed.
  3380. 12[16:40:24] * Poiasdope ([email protected]) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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  3382. [16:40:35] 5[16:40:35]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14people branch it, update translations, then push them back
  3383. [16:40:37] 5[16:40:37]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14ShaRose: just like a texturepack orso
  3384. [16:40:45] 5[16:40:45]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14ShaRose: we rather spend 0 time on them
  3385. [16:40:52] 5[16:40:52]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14I apologize in advance, there's a storm rolling in and I may stop responding mid-conversation.
  3386. [16:40:55] 5[16:40:55]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14you wouldn't have to
  3387. [16:40:55] 5[16:40:55]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14so if we can do it like texturepacks ... win
  3388. [16:41:00] 5[16:41:00]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14some other community person would
  3389. [16:41:01] 5[16:41:01]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14:V
  3390. [16:41:02] 5[16:41:02]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14TkTech: GIVE!!!!!!
  3391. [16:41:04] 5[16:41:04]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14TkTech: Same here
  3392. 09[16:41:07] * Legoben ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3393. [16:41:10] 5[16:41:10]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14its bloody hot here :'( wtb thundrestorm
  3394. [16:41:21] 5[16:41:21]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14No, no..it's still hot here.
  3395. [16:41:22] 5[16:41:22]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14I just had to move in to the garage due to rain
  3396. 09[16:41:24] * Morvelaira ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3397. [16:41:26] 5[16:41:26]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Just 98% humidity on top of it.
  3398. [16:41:31] 5[16:41:31]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14;)
  3399. [16:41:34] 5[16:41:34]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Oh yeah, still hot and also muggy thanks to the threatening rain
  3400. [16:41:35] 5[16:41:35]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14that's alright, we're mostly getting to the point where more detailed discussion is better suited for another medium :)
  3401. 09[16:41:35] * Jonnerz[HA] ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
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  3404. 09[16:41:45] * gamewinner3 ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3405. [16:41:47] 5[16:41:47]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Actually not bad today, only 90F.
  3406. [16:41:53] 5[16:41:53]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Was 105F a few days ago.
  3407. [16:41:58] 5[16:41:58]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14but please, we organised this meeting for the community, so if you have any other questions or concerns you can think of, bring them up now :)
  3408. 12[16:42:01] * rak-mobile ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com ))
  3409. [16:42:08] 5[16:42:08]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14ok; so i think we now need to start collecting 'stuffi want to do with the api' so we can together find ways of providing that?
  3410. 12[16:42:10] * Hat ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 202 seconds)
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  3414. [16:42:34] 5[16:42:34]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: Would this be a good use for google moderator, temporarily?
  3415. 12[16:42:38] * MinerContribs ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
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  3419. [16:42:55] 5[16:42:55]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14not sure; can people discuss on those topics? :/
  3420. 09[16:42:57] * Morrolan ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3421. [16:42:59] 5[16:42:59]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: Seems like the easiest way to keep it together and let the community express their interests in priority
  3422. 12[16:43:00] * Son588 ([email protected]) Quit
  3423. [16:43:02] 5[16:43:02]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: They can, yes
  3424. [16:43:03] 5[16:43:03]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14maybe even a black github with issues would be good :/
  3425. 09[16:43:14] * piti44 ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3426. [16:43:14] 5[16:43:14]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14lol blank
  3427. [16:43:16] 5[16:43:16]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14I'm thinking a forum would be best suited for this, thoughts?
  3428. [16:43:19] 5[16:43:19]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Never used it, but that public google moderator had limits on question length
  3429. 12[16:43:23] * Dracocrafter ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
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  3431. [16:43:30] 5[16:43:30]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14yes, but not the MC forums.
  3432. [16:43:32] 5[16:43:32]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14tbh
  3433. [16:43:32] 5[16:43:32]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14obviously I would need time to get it setup and I need to get it cleared with the business side of things
  3434. [16:43:33] 5[16:43:33]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14500 chars or something
  3435. [16:43:36] 5[16:43:36]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14JIRA would be epic for this
  3436. [16:43:37] 5[16:43:37]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14EvilSeph: Certainly, but the initial hits will probably kill it unless it's something beefy.
  3437. [16:43:39] 5[16:43:39]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14forum with the main post updated with the latest requests perhaps
  3438. [16:43:46] 5[16:43:46]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14EvilSeph: Ah, good, I thought you meant to bring one up right now.
  3439. 12[16:43:47] * monowii ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
  3440. [16:43:47] 5[16:43:47]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Grum I wouldn't mind it
  3441. [16:43:48] 5[16:43:48]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14just post feature requests and we can answer them and make them solved
  3442. [16:43:54] 5[16:43:54]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14yes, or the issue tracker I'm working on Grum, which will be powered by JIRA :)
  3443. [16:43:54] 5[16:43:54]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14or 'would never do that evar'
  3444. 09[16:43:58] * ComicRetrolution ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3445. [16:44:02] 5[16:44:02]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14WHEN DO WE HAS IT!!! TELL US
  3446. [16:44:07] 5[16:44:07]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14^
  3447. [16:44:12] 5[16:44:12]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14i do believe i'm going to have to be going shortly... i didn't schedule more than 3 hours for this. mea culpa.
  3448. [16:44:14] 5[16:44:14]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14EvilSeph: sounds good and ^
  3449. 12[16:44:14] * YSelf ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 13.0.1/20120614114901])
  3450. [16:44:16] 5[16:44:16]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14EvilSeph, I think custom content (blocks, items, entities), biomes & worldgen, console commands, gui, networking, rendering, and some more topics were covered so far
  3451. [16:44:21] 5[16:44:21]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14I was pulled off it and only recently got back to work on it, so no ETA
  3452. [16:44:26] 5[16:44:26]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14This is sounding pretty good
  3453. [16:44:39] 5[16:44:39]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Eloraam: yeah i think we're approaching an end here; you have anything to add? any concerns/ideas? or just agree with it all? ;D
  3454. 12[16:44:41] * xPaw ([email protected]) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  3455. [16:44:46] 5[16:44:46]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14So then, until the forum is available, how about http://goo.gl/mod/0Pev ?
  3456. [16:44:46] 5[16:44:46]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14oh, one thing
  3457. [16:44:49] 5[16:44:49]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14ive got at least 1 thing to put in for request, will do pronto once the thread is setup
  3458. 12[16:44:49] * Littledinamit ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
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  3460. [16:44:57] 5[16:44:57]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Those topics and their discussion can be moved to a forum one available
  3461. [16:44:57] 5[16:44:57]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14but it's my top priority alongside Minecraft 1.3.
  3462. 12[16:44:58] * tips48|afk (~tips48@2001:0:5ef5:79fb:34ac:f93e:ba7a:ef7a) Quit (Ping timeout: 202 seconds)
  3463. [16:45:16] 5[16:45:16]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Grum if you guys are rewriting the renderer, and are adding a 'real' console, please please please extract settings as variables :(
  3464. [16:45:18] 5[16:45:18]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14mine is currently the renderer
  3465. [16:45:25] 5[16:45:25]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14I'm sure we'll have plenty to discuss once the disucssion medium has been established :)
  3466. 12[16:45:26] * aufdemrand ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 380 seconds)
  3467. [16:45:29] 5[16:45:29]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14'settings' is vague -- lets discuss later?
  3468. [16:45:44] 5[16:45:44]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14I meant like how strong the fog is and other such things
  3469. [16:45:44] 5[16:45:44]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14+ShaRose
  3470. [16:45:45] 5[16:45:45]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14I think he means..make everything configurable through cvars
  3471. [16:45:48] 5[16:45:48]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14like Source games do
  3472. [16:45:48] 5[16:45:48]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14aka how source handles it all
  3473. [16:45:53] 5[16:45:53]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14exactly
  3474. 12[16:45:58] * MCWizard111|busy ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Either decided to sleep or internet died)
  3475. [16:45:59] 5[16:45:59]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14obviously with cheat flags :V
  3476. [16:46:01] 5[16:46:01]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Ah
  3477. [16:46:01] 5[16:46:01]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14well .. the server controls most of that
  3478. [16:46:03] 5[16:46:03]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14EvilSeph: Grum: This irc is still going to be used, yes? Are thrre going to be more meetings? Or are you planning to load it to the issue trackers/forums/mailing list/whatever
  3479. [16:46:11] 5[16:46:11]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Snowl: yes i will be idling here forever
  3480. [16:46:20] 5[16:46:20]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14so feel free to ask questions and whatever basically :)
  3481. [16:46:24] 5[16:46:24]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14yes Snowl, like I said at the beginning, I want to begin building an official Minecraft development community
  3482. [16:46:32] 5[16:46:32]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14this channel will be a part of that.
  3483. 09[16:46:34] * Marco2216 ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3484. [16:46:37] 5[16:46:37]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14sweet :)
  3485. [16:46:38] 5[16:46:38]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Sounds good.
  3486. [16:46:38] 5[16:46:38]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Grum: awesome
  3487. [16:46:39] 5[16:46:39]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Grum server shouldn't control some stuff though
  3488. 09[16:46:41] * host00die ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3489. [16:46:45] 5[16:46:45]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14i don't have much to add, i don't think... concerned about the degree of change this is going to require, but the direction seems good enough.
  3490. [16:46:47] 5[16:46:47]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14oh, and draw distance should be a cvar
  3491. [16:46:47] 5[16:46:47]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14ShaRose: nope
  3492. [16:46:48] 5[16:46:48]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14how about something like that system where users could post feature requests and others could give them points? That added into the development community?
  3493. 12[16:46:53] * Cromulent ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  3494. [16:46:59] 5[16:46:59]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Eloraam: masive change but in this case the change should be for the best
  3495. [16:47:05] 5[16:47:05]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14there will likely be more meetings, though that depends on how useful people found this one
  3496. [16:47:07] 5[16:47:07]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14much of the things that are currently added by people like you might be not needed anymore
  3497. 09[16:47:08] * Barracuda_ ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3498. [16:47:13] 5[16:47:13]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Can't fix something without breaking what is already there :)
  3499. [16:47:15] 5[16:47:15]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14you would need minecraft account to give points so that you could not abuse it
  3500. [16:47:20] 5[16:47:20]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14and opinions on the usefulness of this format for things like this, or if we should use some other medium
  3501. [16:47:21] 5[16:47:21]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14and hopefully we can think of ways to make 90+% happy with the api
  3502. 09[16:47:23] * OBattler ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3503. 09[16:47:24] * Kekekirk ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3504. [16:47:26] 5[16:47:26]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14in all honesty
  3505. [16:47:28] 5[16:47:28]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Some stuff certainly came out of this one, but it was also exceptionally noisy.
  3506. [16:47:29] 5[16:47:29]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14i am sure we have the brainpower in this channel
  3507. [16:47:36] 5[16:47:36]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14if ID Resolver and GuiAPI are totally deprecated by the api
  3508. [16:47:38] 5[16:47:38]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14The best part of these will probably be the summaries people generate after.
  3509. [16:47:39] 5[16:47:39]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14I'd be glad
  3510. 09[16:47:49] * Morgranth ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3511. [16:47:51] 5[16:47:51]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14Well I'd like to thank EvilSeph and Grum for letting me be a part of this discussion, and to everybody who took part :)
  3512. [16:47:51] 5[16:47:51]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14TkTech: yeah
  3513. 12[16:47:51] * Barracuda ([email protected]) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  3514. 12[16:47:55] * Myto ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  3515. 09[16:47:57] * Kevlario ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3516. [16:48:09] 5[16:48:09]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14TkTech I can't wait to start reading logs
  3517. 12[16:48:13] * SDG|away ([email protected]) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  3518. 09[16:48:16] * HunterDKS ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3519. 09[16:48:20] * tips48|afk (~tips48@2001:0:5ef5:79fb:384c:f660:ba7a:ef7a) has joined #minecraftdev
  3520. [16:48:23] 5[16:48:23]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14oh yeah
  3521. [16:48:25] 5[16:48:25]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14I bet you the Curse guys will have a forum post shortly.
  3522. 12[16:48:28] * a412toby ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
  3523. [16:48:30] 5[16:48:30]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14did anyone talk about modpacks
  3524. [16:48:30] 5[16:48:30]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14I'm *really* happy that we have had so many big names (eventhough some were last moment ;D) -- i think its really important that we involve the most people (be it indirectly through the users that user your creations) in this process
  3525. 12[16:48:33] * Marco2216 ([email protected]) Quit (Client Quit)
  3526. [16:48:45] 5[16:48:45]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14I can't wait to post comments on the reddit thread explaining why everyone in the thread is wrong :D
  3527. 09[16:48:47] * simiskovich ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3528. 09[16:48:48] * spling ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3529. [16:48:50] 5[16:48:50]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14yes, I'd like to apologise for hte absence of some of our team, but Mojang dosen't actually work on the weekends and Dinnerbone just recently moved to Stockholm, so he's still busy getting settled down :)
  3530. [16:48:57] 5[16:48:57]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Amaranth: Oh, I shall join you in this fun venture.
  3531. [16:49:02] 5[16:49:02]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14EvilSeph: something like this in development community? wunderkit.uservoice.com
  3532. 09[16:49:02] * Racster ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3533. 09[16:49:15] * xLRDx ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3534. 09[16:49:20] * Mokradin ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3535. [16:49:23] 5[16:49:23]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14I can easily say I'm excited about the how the API is taking shape ^_^
  3536. [16:49:23] 5[16:49:23]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14I have to go to work, thanks for having me in the meeting and have a nice day everyone
  3537. 12[16:49:29] * Kenneth ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  3538. [16:49:29] 5[16:49:29]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Kulttuuri: That medium and its ilk are really good for general topic discussion
  3539. [16:49:31] 5[16:49:31]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Btw i'm always up for some technical discussion, so if you want to bounce of some concerns or ideas feel free to prod me gently
  3540. [16:49:32] 5[16:49:32]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14Kulttuuri, I think a JIRA is much better suited
  3541. [16:49:33] 5[16:49:33]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Kulttuuri: It's not good for dev discussion
  3542. [16:49:34] 5[16:49:34]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Oh, one somewhat core design decision: Is changing the height of the world going to be possible?
  3543. [16:49:38] 5[16:49:38]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14I gtg too, so cheers everyone
  3544. [16:49:40] 5[16:49:40]15->>2| 7Eloraam2 | 14cheers everyone... thanks EvilSeph and the rest of you Mojang people for hosting this discussion.
  3545. 09[16:49:40] * Giant ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3546. 09[16:49:41] * coolcrazyfly ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3547. [16:49:42] 5[16:49:42]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Kulttuuri: Where like EvilSeph just said, JIRA is much better.
  3548. [16:49:45] 5[16:49:45]15->>2| 7Kulttuuri2 | 14yea
  3549. [16:49:46] 5[16:49:46]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14later medsouz, Xie
  3550. [16:49:49] 5[16:49:49]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14thanks for joining us!
  3551. [16:49:51] 5[16:49:51]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Jira allows us to do workflows
  3552. 09[16:49:53] * Metathiax ([email protected]) has left #minecraftdev
  3553. [16:49:56] 5[16:49:56]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14Thanks for having us :)
  3554. 12[16:49:57] * Purplefire ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Bye Xie!)
  3555. 12[16:49:57] * Launchy ([email protected]) Quit
  3556. [16:49:57] 5[16:49:57]15->>2| 7medsouz2 | 14bye
  3557. 12[16:49:58] * xGhOsTkiLLeRx ([email protected]) Quit
  3558. 09[16:49:58] * nade ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3559. [16:49:59] 5[16:49:59]15->>2| 7Xie2 | 14<3
  3560. 12[16:49:59] * cfehunter ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  3561. 12[16:49:59] * Bob23_ ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  3562. [16:50:01] 5[16:50:01]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14so we can mark stuf double, accepted, 'done', milestones etc
  3563. 09[16:50:06] * Xie ([email protected]) has left #minecraftdev (Leaving)
  3564. 12[16:50:12] * deasmi (~deasmi@2001:470:959a:0:e858:16a6:4173:7f12) Quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
  3565. [16:50:14] 5[16:50:14]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14heh just thought of something
  3566. [16:50:14] 5[16:50:14]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14EvilSeph if jira is set up, would it be public or private
  3567. 09[16:50:14] * medsouz is now known as medsouz|offline
  3568. 12[16:50:14] * Mokradin ([email protected]) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  3569. [16:50:14] 5[16:50:14]14<<-2| Corosus2 | 14cant wait :D
  3570. 09[16:50:19] * Purplefire ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3571. [16:50:19] 5[16:50:19]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14timer class
  3572. 09[16:50:24] * Mokradin ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3573. [16:50:26] 5[16:50:26]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14JIRA itself would be public
  3574. [16:50:29] 5[16:50:29]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14delayed calls
  3575. 12[16:50:30] * Skidoodle ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  3576. 09[16:50:32] * adnan252 ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3577. [16:50:39] 5[16:50:39]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Risugami: You mean like the bukkit scheduler? :)
  3578. 09[16:50:40] * Volition ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3579. [16:50:40] 5[16:50:40]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14repeating events and such
  3580. [16:50:46] 5[16:50:46]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14probably
  3581. [16:50:52] 5[16:50:52]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14but JIRA has the ability to have projects with specific access
  3582. 09[16:50:52] * awesomesauce23 ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3583. [16:50:53] 5[16:50:53]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Amaranth niether me or Risugami know anything about bukkit :V
  3584. 12[16:51:01] * Akatana ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  3585. [16:51:05] 5[16:51:05]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14will there be a next meeting next week same time?
  3586. [16:51:09] 5[16:51:09]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14You can schedule tasks to run at certain intervals after certain delays
  3587. [16:51:14] 5[16:51:14]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14EvilSeph why not make it so accounts need approval before they are created?
  3588. 12[16:51:15] * Mokradin ([email protected]) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  3589. [16:51:21] 5[16:51:21]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14And even make an async task that gets run on a different thread (although you are limited there)
  3590. 09[16:51:22] * Skidoodle ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3591. 12[16:51:23] * SICC ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
  3592. [16:51:23] 5[16:51:23]15->>2| 7Risugami2 | 14just something vanilla is missing
  3593. [16:51:24] 5[16:51:24]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14and I'm working closely with Atlassian on the JIRA who have kindly provided us with it :)
  3594. 09[16:51:26] * Mokradin ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3595. [16:51:35] 5[16:51:35]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14neat
  3596. 12[16:51:39] * Ineentho ([email protected]) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  3597. 09[16:51:40] * interrupt ([email protected]) has left #minecraftdev
  3598. [16:51:44] 5[16:51:44]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14so anyone wants to discuss something now? ;D
  3599. 12[16:51:46] * Grafic_ ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Ik ga weg)
  3600. [16:51:51] 5[16:51:51]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Searge you have some protocol stuff
  3601. [16:51:55] 5[16:51:55]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14Grum: World height :)
  3602. [16:52:06] 5[16:52:06]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Amaranth: eventually we'll allow a chunk to have x/y/z
  3603. [16:52:07] 5[16:52:07]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Amaranth wasn't that already moved into a variable?
  3604. [16:52:10] 5[16:52:10]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14so yeah .... 'whatever size'
  3605. [16:52:19] 5[16:52:19]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14cubic chunks, etc
  3606. [16:52:26] 5[16:52:26]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14but it has the technical problems with heightmaps/light spreads etc
  3607. [16:52:28] 5[16:52:28]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14ShaRose: chunks hardcode at 16 sections and the protocol also hardcodes 16 sections
  3608. [16:52:29] 5[16:52:29]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14worldgen will need to be updated (again)
  3609. [16:52:31] 5[16:52:31]15->>2| 11EvilSeph2 | 14the issue tracker is meant to be for Minecraft, but we could make use of it for the API and have a 'dev' program and group gain access to use it
  3610. 12[16:52:34] * Kekekirk ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  3611. 12[16:52:34] * RustyC_ ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  3612. 12[16:52:34] * djhag93 ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  3613. 12[16:52:34] * Mokradin ([email protected]) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  3614. 12[16:52:35] * Eloraam ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Zoop!)
  3615. [16:52:38] 5[16:52:38]15->>2| 7Jarvix2 | 14Then cuboic chunks can also be loaded in a spherical radius :D
  3616. [16:52:39] 5[16:52:39]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14Grum, network protocol?
  3617. [16:52:44] 5[16:52:44]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14Searge: yeah optimizing it?
  3618. 09[16:52:45] * Mokradin ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3619. [16:52:58] 5[16:52:58]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14EvilSeph / Grum: I would love to go in-depth with the Hub idea whenever you have some time or interest in it. So in six years or so :)
  3620. 12[16:53:05] * matt112986 ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  3621. 12[16:53:11] * Sk8r2K10 ([email protected]) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  3622. [16:53:12] 5[16:53:12]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Oh, and the protocol interests me greatly
  3623. [16:53:15] 5[16:53:15]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14I think so far i have some basic ideas what I'd optimize first if I were doing it
  3624. [16:53:15] 5[16:53:15]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14hub idea? (o god i missed something .. sorry)
  3625. 09[16:53:18] * garrettt3t ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3626. 09[16:53:23] * lutzee ([email protected]) has left #minecraftdev
  3627. [16:53:30] 5[16:53:30]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14oh
  3628. [16:53:31] 5[16:53:31]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14devhub!
  3629. 12[16:53:34] * Mokradin ([email protected]) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  3630. [16:53:35] 5[16:53:35]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Grum: I believe EvilSeph called it a hub earlier
  3631. 09[16:53:37] * Wug ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3632. 09[16:53:44] * Mokradin ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3633. [16:53:49] 5[16:53:49]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14(ty innervoice with the sound of Evilseph)
  3634. [16:53:50] 5[16:53:50]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Searge: I didn't know you had an interest in the protocol, you should join us some time :)
  3635. [16:53:50] 5[16:53:50]15->>2| 7Snowl2 | 14all the dev resources in one place
  3636. 09[16:53:56] * lutzee ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3637. 09[16:54:02] * Sk8r2K10 ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3638. 12[16:54:04] * FelixJ20000 ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Web client closed)
  3639. 12[16:54:07] * Mokradin ([email protected]) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  3640. 09[16:54:11] * SirCmpwn ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3641. 09[16:54:18] * Mokradin ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3642. [16:54:30] 5[16:54:30]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14protocol optimization is fun!
  3643. [16:54:32] 5[16:54:32]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14someone once told me that disabling setTrafficClass(24) on the sockets would help latency a bit, but I never tested
  3644. 09[16:54:36] * barneygale` ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3645. [16:54:37] 5[16:54:37]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14so what is the thing that sohuld be optimized most?
  3646. [16:54:43] 5[16:54:43]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14surely the entity movement is atrocious
  3647. 12[16:54:44] * MionFutago ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Ciao peeps ^^)
  3648. 09[16:54:45] * sargunster ([email protected]) has left #minecraftdev
  3649. 12[16:54:52] * HeffronCM|DnD ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/)
  3650. [16:54:53] 5[16:54:53]15->>2| 7Amaranth2 | 14ShaRose: You mean disabling nagle's algorithm?
  3651. 12[16:54:55] * garrettt3t ([email protected]) Quit (Client Quit)
  3652. [16:54:55] 5[16:54:55]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14we should bundle stuff (after buffering them)
  3653. 12[16:54:56] * barneygale` ([email protected]) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  3654. [16:54:59] 5[16:54:59]15->>2| 7Searge2 | 14TkTech, I was working on network game middleware as a professional game developer for many years, so ofc that's something I'm very interested in :)
  3655. [16:55:07] 5[16:55:07]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14Amaranth enabling it by disabling that, yes
  3656. 12[16:55:10] * simiskovich ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  3657. [16:55:20] 5[16:55:20]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14Wait, /enabling/ nagles?
  3658. 09[16:55:21] * Digdown_ ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
  3659. 09[16:55:23] * Grum sets mode: +v Wug
  3660. 12[16:55:28] * GfxHacker ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
  3661. [16:55:30] 5[16:55:30]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14That generally increases delays, especially with so many small movement packetes
  3662. [16:55:30] 5[16:55:30]15->>2| 7ShaRose2 | 14those flags in memory serves is High Bandwidth and Low Latency
  3663. [16:55:36] 5[16:55:36]15->>2| 11Grum2 | 14enabling nagles is baaddddd
  3664. 12[16:55:36] * CTennant ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
  3665. [16:55:39] 5[16:55:39]15->>2| 7TkTech2 | 14^^^^^^^
  3666. 12[16:55:40] * firmnug ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
  3667. 09[16:55:43] * Verean ([email protected]) has joined #minecraftdev
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