Changing The Rules of the Game

(8:13:14 PM) ventricularPipefitter: ....I'm tired of Sburb being a game people can't win.
(8:14:19 PM) noxalNightmare: Hmm?
(8:16:05 PM) Cobb: Isn't ... that the number 1 core conceit of the setting?
(8:17:11 PM) ventricularPipefitter: I'm finding myself less motivated by RP here as I used to be, and I wondered if it was because things felt stagnant.
(8:17:49 PM) ventricularPipefitter: And, ultimately, I do want a conclusion or an ending for my characters, even if I don't get around to roleplaying it, and I'd like it to be a happy ending.
(8:19:12 PM) Cobb: You ... may be onto something.
(8:20:25 PM) ventricularPipefitter: Or maybe I want to shake up the premises of the RP.
(8:20:43 PM) ventricularPipefitter: Unsure. Mostlyl just at 'wehh unsatisfied,' right now.
(8:21:36 PM) Cobb: Yeah, I feel you on that
(8:21:52 PM) Cobb: It's kinda been feeling like we're doing the same things
(8:22:29 PM) noxalNightmare: So possibly a change in an big element concerning how the current structure of our RP works?
(8:23:12 PM) ventricularPipefitter: I think the 'pain and separation and corruption' grinder is slowly turning characters into people that aren't fun to play, because I'm not sure enough good, wonder, and discovery is happening.
(8:23:28 PM) oven [[email protected]] entered the room.
(8:24:42 PM) You are now known as venPip|idle
(8:26:02 PM) noxalNightmare: That would bring up the issue of "what would we need to change to fix that", and there would likely be some fallout from that, since we usually have different ideas of what to change that'd change things enough
(8:29:59 PM) oven is now known as postmodernPrometheus
(8:32:50 PM) Cobb: Yeah ... every time we talk about major changes (to the IC or OOC), people fight it and we get nowhere.
(8:33:47 PM) venPip|idle: Doesn't mean we /can't/, though.
(8:34:19 PM) noxalNightmare: Which I can see, some parts are obvious, like some people really do not want to change things much because how it is now works fine or pretty good for them, so changing that up could mean it doesn't go well with what works for them. So change would be a bit hard to plot out
(8:51:00 PM) Ishtadaal is now known as extTac|online
(8:59:42 PM) venPip|idle: Oh! Here I am.
(9:00:12 PM) venPip|idle: Hey, non-judgemental brainstorming time--what would *you* want to do differently or change about Replay Value? Muss, Cobb, any of y'all.
(9:00:54 PM) Cobb: (making a food, will tell when returned)
(9:01:27 PM) noxalNightmare: Well, to be honest, something I read about in a piratepad before, really early on in the RP
(9:03:17 PM) countedFish: ...I think that our characters need something to /hope/ for
(9:03:28 PM) countedFish: some reason to hope that maybe things will get better, that there's a reason to keep going
(9:03:54 PM) Keleviel: My idea of what I wanr to change is something that has nothing to do with this and more to do with the class system, I admit
(9:03:56 PM) Keleviel: *want
(9:04:52 PM) venPip|idle: oh?
(9:04:54 PM) OJ: Not being able to write anything but trauma is my own damn problem and I would rather work on it myself than try and fail to fix Replay Value's background assumptions
(9:05:38 PM) venPip|idle: I don't think it's somehow exclusively your fault or influence that RV is traumatic-centric.
(9:05:53 PM) countedFish: ^
(9:06:52 PM) noxalNightmare: Having a hard time properly thinking or wording what I want to say unfortunately
(9:06:58 PM) extTac|online is now known as doomedLily
(9:07:59 PM) OJ: It's something about what GGTG wrote, that makes RV keep attracting the broken people, then. What is it, and what can we do about it?
(9:08:36 PM) countedFish: hm
(9:08:38 PM) countedFish: I think
(9:08:55 PM) countedFish: it might be a tacit acknowledgement, in the premise, that things are not okay
(9:09:13 PM) countedFish: and that they are not /supposed/ to be okay - that the way things are is not how they should be
(9:09:29 PM) countedFish: and that maybe you can't fix it, but you can at least survive it
(9:12:15 PM) noxalNightmare: And, if we wanted to expand on that, possibly a kind of slow realization that lately, the developers may have actually realized how screwed up everything is and trying to fix it, although it's going slowly?
(9:13:30 PM) noxalNightmare: Like broken and deadly bits getting removed or fixed, and you don't realize it until it's just kinda there, /fixed/, because it was always broken
(9:14:28 PM) corinthianConsequence: mmm i'm not
(9:14:36 PM) corinthianConsequence: really comfortable with that kinda fixing of the game
(9:14:56 PM) countedFish: I think it'd kind of raise a lot of questions
(9:15:14 PM) noxalNightmare: Mmm, alright, trying to bounce around ideas in my head
(9:15:30 PM) countedFish: because then you've got the question of "why is Noir / the Denizen / ebonpyres less deadly, but the Door still doesn't work"
(9:15:36 PM) countedFish: and that's kinda
(9:15:44 PM) OJ: Broken Aesop
(9:15:50 PM) OJ: I think is the trope-style term
(9:15:57 PM) countedFish: ...a bit, yeah
(9:15:57 PM) venPip|idle: Traditional brainstorming is throwing ideas at the wall for the sake of the exercise, and filtering them later
(9:16:08 PM) countedFish: begs the question of why they'd fix /that/ and not the main issue
(9:16:08 PM) OJ: yeah
(9:16:23 PM) Keleviel: Because it's easier to delete something than it is to fix something of that magnitude
(9:16:41 PM) countedFish: plus, it means you'd have the hope/threat of the Door /actually/ being fixed looming over your head
(9:16:59 PM) countedFish: which could mean you get through with a group you can live with for the rest of your life
(9:18:23 PM) countedFish: orrr you could never see/hear people you care about again, and be stuck with people that you could endure for a few months but really don't want to live with
(9:18:58 PM) countedFish: and doesn't really address the "what's the point of continuing on if things are always terrible" issue I think exists
(9:19:19 PM) noxalNightmare: yeah
(9:22:12 PM) OJ: Something that is interesting: the other day, I was reading a "how to write mental illness when roleplaying" writeup and PTSD was on /that/ writeup as "something you need to tread very carefully with because in reality it polarizes people and ruins lives, but it could be amazing if you have the right group"
(9:22:15 PM) OJ: and it /has/ been amazing
(9:22:35 PM) OJ: on the whole
(9:23:21 PM) OJ: but the trouble is that if we're socially /obligating/ people to do roleplaying with a topic that is emotionally draining and very difficult
(9:24:12 PM) OJ: I'm not surprised to see people getting burnt-out on the premise.
(9:25:24 PM) noxalNightmare is now known as Muss
(9:28:15 PM) countedFish: mm
(9:28:24 PM) venPip|idle: I have long imagined that Replayers might actually hold great potential to shape the game and the worlds around them that has gone mostly untapped and unrealized, akin to Blast-Your-Boots' most florid speculations about will and the ultimate riddle and so on.
(9:28:48 PM) Cobb: I'm actually thinking
(9:29:02 PM) Cobb: what I would like to see is a sudden change of focus
(9:29:06 PM) venPip|idle: That, to me, is /why/ Angels and Terrors find that players are worth bargaining with. That they have something the other Powers That Be /want/.
(9:29:19 PM) OJ: Interesting!
(9:29:36 PM) Cobb: Something that doesn't change our setting's rules, while changing everything about how we play
(9:29:41 PM) Cobb: for example
(9:30:16 PM) Cobb: what if for some reason the Game itself had a sharp drop in the difficulty curve, making it so that, for a while, nearly everyone survives the Game
(9:30:35 PM) Cobb: but the PRESESSION is no longer guaranteed to keep you alive until entry
(9:30:52 PM) Cobb: Suddenly they have a completely different set of problems to face.
(9:31:08 PM) Cobb: The ironic reversal in the Game being the "safe" zone, and the presession being where you need to be careful.
(9:31:13 PM) venPip|idle: Esp. If you combined it with longer presessions.
(9:31:17 PM) doomedLily: Ehh
(9:31:19 PM) Cobb: Mhm
(9:31:37 PM) doomedLily: What'd  the OOC explanation be past "we want to shake things up"
(9:31:43 PM) doomedLily: There's always a reason for things
(9:31:46 PM) Cobb: That also allows us to choose whether your characters experience that or not
(9:31:50 PM) venPip|idle: (It's difficult, but players can kill angels. And some people get very, very, good at it. The_Red_Mage had a rogue dreamself of Cole's that went AA, splintered off from him, and was out in the Ring, fighting 'Terrors. I believe people /could/ kill horrorterrors, likewise.)
(9:31:54 PM) Cobb: But do you always know the reason?
(9:32:00 PM) doomedLily: As an author, yes.
(9:32:02 PM) doomedLily: You always do.
(9:32:24 PM) OJ:  /I/ would like to have a reason.
(9:32:24 PM) doomedLily: You can't just vaguely introduce something without having a massive amount of retconning/fridge-picking to do.
(9:32:37 PM) countedFish: I'd like to have a reason as well.
(9:32:53 PM) doomedLily: I'd be much more comfortable with something dark being something
(9:32:56 PM) doomedLily: I've noticed that
(9:32:58 PM) doomedLily: gradually
(9:33:06 PM) doomedLily: first of all there are more, younger Replayers
(9:33:11 PM) doomedLily: second of all there are kids
(9:33:24 PM) doomedLily: Third of all, people seem to be able to orchestrate their own deaths more easily
(9:33:29 PM) Cobb: For myself, I am comfortable with the characters not understanding the change. I don't feel that I have to specify something OOC if it isn't known IC and the OOC reason doesn't actually matter.
(9:33:42 PM) venPip|idle: (The kids is a huge change, for sure.)
(9:33:46 PM) doomedLily: Yes, it does matter, Cobb
(9:33:46 PM) Cobb: I've noticed those three, as well.
(9:33:48 PM) doomedLily: It matters a lot
(9:33:53 PM) Cobb: I don't like the age dropping or the kids
(9:33:55 PM) doomedLily: We, OOC, need to know the reason
(9:34:15 PM) doomedLily: We also need to have an agreement that people will not know /why/ it is
(9:34:22 PM) doomedLily: Unless it's the sort of metaplot that gets solved
(9:34:31 PM) OJ: The OOC reason /does/ matter to me, because I want my characters to be uncomfortably on-point with their speculation sometimes and it doesn't feel the /same/ to have a shot-in-the-dark explanation.
(9:35:11 PM) doomedLily: Note that "close to / on the mark" does /not/ necessitate people believing them / them thinking it's the plausible / best reason
(9:35:18 PM) doomedLily: Or maintaining that line of inquiry
(9:35:22 PM) OJ: ^
(9:35:34 PM) countedFish: It You can have the reason never specified if it's fanfic.
(9:35:41 PM) ***countedFish removes the first 'it' from that
(9:35:42 PM) Cobb: If you absolutely need a reason ... the servers are going into power-saving mode while maintenance is performed.
(9:35:51 PM) doomedLily: That makes
(9:35:52 PM) doomedLily: no
(9:35:54 PM) doomedLily: sense
(9:35:55 PM) venPip|idle: ...the servers the /universe/ runs on?
(9:35:56 PM) countedFish: what
(9:35:56 PM) OJ: Wh -
(9:36:00 PM) Cobb: So longer presessions.
(9:36:03 PM) Cobb: The servers that Sburb runs on
(9:36:19 PM) Keleviel: Isn't that the IC reason?
(9:36:20 PM) OJ: It presumes there /are/ servers, and they need maintenance, and that there is thus some sort of sysadmin
(9:36:20 PM) Keleviel: Like
(9:36:22 PM) Cobb: You know ... the ones that have soul pollen?
(9:36:31 PM) Cobb: We already assume that
(9:36:31 PM) OJ: Which
(9:36:37 PM) Cobb: We have soul pollen applying updates to the Game
(9:36:38 PM) Keleviel: I admit I'm confused what the hell anyone's talking about when they say OOC reason
(9:36:40 PM) doomedLily: All of them have soul pollen
(9:36:41 PM) OJ: Look, I already played Sburb Patch Notes once
(9:36:43 PM) doomedLily: it's just which
(9:36:50 PM) doomedLily: Kel, we need to know the IC reason as author
(9:36:52 PM) venPip|idle: (OJ, I giggled.)
(9:36:55 PM) Keleviel: We have the OOC reason, it's "We want to make things different"
(9:36:56 PM) OJ: the IC reason, I mean
(9:37:12 PM) doomedLily: You're talking Doyle, we're talking Watson, my dear man.
(9:37:18 PM) Keleviel: ...
(9:37:26 PM) Keleviel: You were all talking Watson while referring to it as Doyle
(9:37:26 PM) OJ: but yeah if you are spec'ing about the Sburb servers I will be extremely tempted to play the server dudes and, uhh
(9:37:31 PM) doomedLily: No
(9:37:32 PM) OJ: Sorry
(9:37:36 PM) doomedLily: OOC, we need to know the reason
(9:37:39 PM) Cobb: Yeah, you kinda were there.
(9:37:43 PM) OJ: OOC, we need to know the IC reason
(9:37:43 PM) Keleviel: Ah
(9:37:44 PM) Cobb: OOC, you want to know the IC reason.
(9:37:53 PM) Keleviel: I got confused
(9:37:55 PM) Keleviel: Sorry
(9:37:59 PM) doomedLily: I don't want the game to no longer be deadly. Frankly, as a change, I'd rather suggest that suicide is enabled
(9:38:13 PM) doomedLily: Or that there's a new rule that makes under-eighteens effectively immortal
(9:38:17 PM) doomedLily: Or something like that
(9:38:22 PM) doomedLily: Something that's in-game weirdness
(9:38:44 PM) Cobb: Is it specifically the GAME that you want to be deadly?
(9:38:45 PM) Cobb: Or the setting?
(9:38:52 PM) corinthianConsequence is now known as Bobbin
(9:38:59 PM) Cobb: I suggest that it doesn't have to be the GAME itself that is necessarily dangerous
(9:38:59 PM) Keleviel: There's a difference between "Game is deadly" and "Game is soul-crushing"
(9:39:02 PM) Cobb: so long as the setting is dangerous
(9:39:18 PM) Cobb: and we are fundamentally talking about changing things because people feel it's become stagnant
(9:39:20 PM) OJ: (The thing I've been playing with, re: shifting the focus ICly, is that Epi is not troubled by the mechanics of the Game itself, so much as he is troubled by the fact that it has conditioned him into thinking the worst will always keep coming.)
(9:39:27 PM) venPip|idle: Actually, Cobb.
(9:40:46 PM) venPip|idle: Wait nevermind I didn't need to say that. But I want to focus on coming up with ideas and developing them and brainstorming for now. A more critical eye can come later, if wanted or needed.
(9:41:14 PM) OJ: It's.
(9:41:22 PM) OJ: I don't think it's about the /danger/ per se
(9:41:28 PM) OJ: so much as the 'Game is brainwashing' thing
(9:41:53 PM) Cobb: My initial idea is "The focus of conflict shifts from the Game to the Presession."
(9:41:58 PM) Keleviel: Is that something Epi's concerned about or is it something you are as well?
(9:42:08 PM) Cobb: That doesn't actually bring any serious change to the setting
(9:42:16 PM) Cobb: in terms of canon, that is
(9:42:35 PM) Cobb: but it does allow us to change a lot or a little about what we do
(9:42:36 PM) OJ: Kel, that's a good question and I don't have an answer
(9:43:00 PM) countedFish: personally, I'd like something that makes the game a bit less soul-crushing
(9:43:03 PM) OJ: Ehhhh. Presession was never my thing
(9:43:23 PM) OJ: I like the /symbology/ of the Game as it is.
(9:43:36 PM) Keleviel: Presessions are rarely put under the spotlight
(9:43:40 PM) Keleviel: And, frankly?
(9:43:47 PM) Keleviel: If you ask me which setting I would rather play?
(9:44:02 PM) Keleviel: I would go for the ones with monsters and superpowers and a mythology running through it all
(9:44:07 PM) Keleviel: Rather than
(9:44:08 PM) Keleviel: You know
(9:44:12 PM) venPip|idle: Quantum Leap?
(9:44:14 PM) Keleviel: Normal life
(9:44:32 PM) Keleviel: (In terms of presession vs session)
(9:44:33 PM) postmodernPrometheus: yeah I have zero interest in presessions unless they're really weird
(9:45:12 PM) OJ: 'something that makes the game a bit soul-crushing' - this goes back to the thing Zu said earlier, about Players having /something/ to them that could empower them greatly, if they could find it
(9:45:18 PM) OJ: *bit less
(9:45:19 PM) Cobb: It's a thing that individuals could choose to take or leave
(9:45:33 PM) OJ: Cobb, I think at this rate you might be the only one using it.
(9:46:21 PM) countedFish: which kinda doesn't make it a change at all
(9:46:29 PM) countedFish: it makes it something that's unique to your characters
(9:46:37 PM) Keleviel: We're still on the "throw out ideas"
(9:46:43 PM) doomedLily: Presessions are fundamentally supposed to be safe, so unless there's something like "The Host is now sentient, have dissappeared from the Underworld, and they are trying to get people before they Play" I wouldn't be interested
(9:46:45 PM) Keleviel: Part, rather than the "tear the ideas down" part
(9:47:02 PM) doomedLily: What if games where you were playing with someone below a certain age threshold became less lethal? We know that games that get veterans are likelier to be fucked up, but until now, people with really high levels of experience have fallen in sessions of inexperienced kids and that's soul-crushing and A Lot Of Dead Kids, too.
(9:47:15 PM) Keleviel: (insert pedantic "The Host has always been sentient as a whole" thing here)
(9:47:33 PM) doomedLily: (Self-aware, then.)
(9:47:37 PM) Keleviel: Like a difficulty curve
(9:47:41 PM) venPip|idle: That would be fucking terrifying.
(9:47:42 PM) doomedLily: Yes
(9:47:46 PM) statisticalDepression: Oh jesus
(9:47:48 PM) doomedLily: But scaled towards the lower end
(9:47:50 PM) doomedLily: As opposed to the higher
(9:47:55 PM) Keleviel: If you can take a lot, you get a lot
(9:47:57 PM) statisticalDepression: Angels getting /out/ of the Game would be terrifying yes
(9:48:18 PM) Keleviel: If you're not quite exactly made of steel and stone and sheer stubbornness, you get something not as bad
(9:48:22 PM) OJ: Hey, weren't we supposed to be brainstorming how to make it /less/ soul-crushing, not /more/?
(9:48:32 PM) statisticalDepression: Sorry
(9:48:38 PM) statisticalDepression: I just get sidetracked by Angels really easily
(9:48:42 PM) doomedLily: ...was that a pun or a legitimate question
(9:48:49 PM) venPip|idle: I have all of earth to Run Like Hell in, and if I can survive, I can escape.
(9:48:50 PM) Keleviel: Considering this is the Angels we're talking about, this is literal soul-crushing :v
(9:49:17 PM) doomedLily: Because the Big Bad getting a power-up is something that would give a story arc to the roleplay without necessarily moving towards Can Town
(9:49:36 PM) venPip|idle: /that's/ what I'm missing. Narrative arcs. The Dreaded M-Word. The Great White Wolf.
(9:50:23 PM) doomedLily: We'd have to speculate as to what the Underworld usually is when it's not filled with angels
(9:50:31 PM) venPip|idle: Oooh I've thought about that actually.
(9:50:33 PM) statisticalDepression: Full of imps
(9:50:43 PM) doomedLily: I dunno, what if it was some sort of mid-game breakroom
(9:50:47 PM) Keleviel: It's a graveyard/necropolis
(9:50:52 PM) statisticalDepression: Who drop those four specific grists that build up the Not-House that lets you get the Heart that does...Something
(9:51:03 PM) statisticalDepression: So what is it outside of those things?
(9:51:12 PM) Keleviel: But we're getting off topic here
(9:51:14 PM) OJ: It is the soul of your Denizen haunting your Land?
(9:51:34 PM) Keleviel: Even though this is something I am interested in
(9:51:37 PM) venPip|idle: A memorial, a catacomb, a Labyrinth, a place of secrets unlocked after one faces and defeats the darkness within oneself embodied in the Nightmare Heir.
(9:51:45 PM) Bobbin: (for the 'what was the underworld without angels' i have a discontinued character who was meant to have come from a pre-Angels version of the game)
(9:51:55 PM) doomedLily: Okay
(9:51:58 PM) doomedLily: bookmark time
(9:52:02 PM) countedFish: hm
(9:52:07 PM) Bobbin: (we had discussions and i think settled on something, if we return to that topic then i think i might be able to dig up the old discussion)
(9:52:14 PM) doomedLily: Kel, what's 'on topic' would you like to guide us back to it?
(9:52:35 PM) Keleviel: The original one of "How do we lessen the soul-crushing?"
(9:52:58 PM) OJ: I recently checked out a book from the library called "Personal Mythology", with only about five million ideas about what symbology /should/ be used on a mythological coming-of-age quest. I haven't read much of it yet but what I have is great and I would like to share it once I actually have read through
(9:54:29 PM) Keleviel: Sounds interesting, although that's something we'll have to come back to later
(9:54:44 PM) OJ: Agreed.
(9:54:45 PM) Keleviel: ...Hm. I have an idea, building off of the difficulty curve thing
(9:54:49 PM) OJ: What were you going to go back to?
(9:55:20 PM) Keleviel: The game is supposed to be about your own personal growth, yeah?
(9:55:28 PM) Keleviel: In addition to making the frog/universe, I mean
(9:55:33 PM) Muss: (Okay, caught up with this, you guys type fast)
(9:55:34 PM) doomedLily: Mmhmm
(9:55:42 PM) Keleviel: (Get on my level)
(9:55:57 PM) venPip|idle: Uh-huh.
(9:55:58 PM) Keleviel: So what if the game starts to change to be more of a situation that encourages growth?
(9:56:09 PM) venPip|idle: that...would make sense.
(9:56:49 PM) Keleviel: Like, the oppressive violent monsterhunt with the Denizen and the Heir are all well and good, and they have, I am sure, caused growth in characters, even growth that's good
(9:57:10 PM) venPip|idle: the Heir's not really a monsterhunt. It's a classic Facing Your Shadow.
(9:57:16 PM) doomedLily: ...previously-known milestones for the game dissappear?
(9:57:24 PM) doomedLily: Depending on peoples' needs
(9:57:26 PM) venPip|idle: Or /change/ in objective?
(9:57:30 PM) Keleviel: But what if that's /not/ good for you, if you need a more prosaic setting, something to encourage growth that isn't the ultraviolence of the game?
(9:57:45 PM) venPip|idle: Hm
(9:57:49 PM) doomedLily: The game is about personal growth and breeding a frog.
(9:57:56 PM) doomedLily: They all seem to be in copies of the same murdermode
(9:58:06 PM) ***Krat awakens
(9:58:16 PM) venPip|idle: (Rise from your graaave)
(9:58:33 PM) Keleviel: Like, the Denizen isn't the Enemy Who You Have A Relationship With in some games, it could be THat Monster Who Is Like A Parent, or The Wise Mentor, sorta thing
(9:58:40 PM) Keleviel: If that would help you
(9:58:49 PM) ***Krat lurches into the conversation all zombielike
(9:59:22 PM) Krat: I like that idea, Kel - adapting pre-existing game constructs to fill new roles.
(10:00:18 PM) OJ: Yeah, but what do we do with the Slaying of the Beast?
(10:00:26 PM) Muss: Like a parent that can push you along enough, not too much so that you break under the stress, but not too little that you don't really grow from the experience?
(10:00:52 PM) Keleviel: If it's a thing you need to do to grow? It's there. If it's not, if losing them is going to hurt you? They don't force you to kill them
(10:01:04 PM) Krat: Make the Slaying an optional event, yeah. Make alternate events to fill its place.
(10:01:05 PM) Muss: Well, there was always supposedly a hidden giant catche of grist, right? Like I remember reading it in the guide
(10:01:14 PM) Keleviel: Less optional
(10:01:21 PM) Krat: Right, right
(10:01:32 PM) Keleviel: More "You're forced to if it will be for the best, but if it wouldn't be, you're not going to"
(10:01:33 PM) Krat: if it's in, it has to be done
(10:01:37 PM) Keleviel: Yes
(10:01:40 PM) Krat: but it isn't necessarily in
(10:01:50 PM) Krat: Maybe there's a few new events and they cycle through them
(10:01:55 PM) Muss: What if if you do enough, when you reach a certain point, they unlock it for you, and that goes to the battle field
(10:01:57 PM) OJ: We're going to have to explain that to people coming in from the Guide. Dammit. That's the only major problem I can see with this
(10:02:22 PM) Krat: off-hand, maybe in one type of Denizen you're protected by it and shielded from the rest of the session for a time - like a protective parent
(10:02:31 PM) Krat: and then the Fledging occurs and you're expelled from your Land
(10:02:31 PM) statisticalDepression: ...When was the last time we /got/ somebody new?
(10:02:34 PM) Krat: you've got to make it on your own
(10:02:41 PM) Keleviel: Yeah, that's an option
(10:02:43 PM) Krat: *Fledgling
(10:02:44 PM) OJ: Point.
(10:02:55 PM) Keleviel: (Although less "From your land" and more "From their area of protection", I think)
(10:03:05 PM) venPip|idle: A new player? Dog's ages. I don't know if we've had anybody join since we moved servers
(10:03:06 PM) Muss: And when was the last time also, that we didn't tell them about all the changes we made to the guide in this RP?
(10:03:31 PM) OJ: Yeeeeah. I think it might be time to admit to ourselves that we're not going to be an open roleplay anytime soon
(10:04:18 PM) Bobbin: we could treat the guide as being an old version of it, and if we could somehow finish an 'addendum to game layout' (which can eventually become an IC-written thing) then that provides OOC knowledge- not just for new people but for those of us who forget the order of in-game events and need to check details
(10:04:30 PM) Muss: (Oh, and if you need to lose the denizen, but killing them won't work? Maybe something like a "put them back to sleep" would work? They were asleep when you came, and now it's your job to let them rest again, and take over the job of taking care of the land?)
(10:04:54 PM) OJ: (Oooooh.)
(10:05:07 PM) OJ: (That could be a cool alternate path)
(10:05:30 PM) Bobbin: (maintains the removal of the denizen as option for blessing, too)
(10:05:34 PM) Bobbin: (i like that as an alternate)
(10:06:13 PM) Muss: The denizen could even go "I try to care for the land, but I can't manage it right, it's time for you to take care of the land and it's people, you have grown so much, I know you can do it now"
(10:06:19 PM) OJ: I think what /I'd/ prefer from a Denizen is that they once walked among the people dispensing wisdom like the methods of farming and clothing and that kind of thing, except then one day they just... disappeared, and you need to figure out where they went and /then/ figure out why they disappeared and stuff
(10:06:49 PM) OJ: maybe they were fed up with the entire 'being a god' thing and want to foist it on someone but they want to make sure they foist it onto the /right/ person
(10:06:50 PM) Cobb: oh wow, this discussion is going light-years faster than I can follow, I'm doing food prep things
(10:07:26 PM) venPip|idle: (Ross wants to be a god. Does that quality for dis-quality him?)
(10:08:04 PM) statisticalDepression: (yes)
(10:08:13 PM) Bobbin is now known as keeningMorrigan
(10:08:21 PM) Keleviel: (If he needs to learn humility, he can get the godhood and then realize how strenuous it is so that he doesn't want it as much, perhaps)
(10:08:22 PM) OJ: (applaud)
(10:09:19 PM) venPip|idle: (He has totally already learned that lesson.)
(10:09:20 PM) Muss: (Denizen gives a large amount of power to the consorts also, make him see that he has to work with other people to complete goals and such, even if they may not seem like the most important people or things out there?)
(10:09:23 PM) OJ: But yes multiple paths to Denizen is a thing we could work with, to an extent - though it doesn't have the same consequences as Big Bad Metaplot
(10:09:28 PM) ***Muss nods
(10:09:40 PM) statisticalDepression: No reason why we can't do both
(10:09:42 PM) Muss: Weeeellllll
(10:09:49 PM) statisticalDepression: Or have one as part of the other
(10:09:54 PM) keeningMorrigan: it's the game changing in considerably larger movements than before
(10:09:54 PM) OJ: True.
(10:09:58 PM) Muss: With big changes, come big errors in code
(10:10:00 PM) keeningMorrigan: that'll ruffle some feathers for a while
(10:10:08 PM) keeningMorrigan: and yes, new glitches can roll in
(10:10:19 PM) Keleviel: (I admit I had the Denizen as an example of the thing)
(10:10:37 PM) venPip|idle: aw yeah, glitches
(10:10:42 PM) Keleviel: Lands can change depending on what you need, too
(10:10:55 PM) Muss: This could be something minor for some people, this could be "the angels aren't binded to the underworld" in others
(10:11:12 PM) Keleviel: Like you could have a more exploration-based land, or something more like a library or a maze or whatever if that would help
(10:11:17 PM) doomedLily: Gonna head out. Later!
(10:11:22 PM) doomedLily left the room (quit: Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client).
(10:11:24 PM) Muss: Ooooo, that sounds interesting
(10:11:26 PM) Muss: Take c-aww
(10:11:27 PM) Keleviel: A general shift towards the game working to help you change for the better
(10:11:36 PM) Keleviel: Of which the Denizen is a part of that
(10:12:26 PM) ***Muss really likes messing with lands to affect characters so really likes that idea Wyrm
(10:12:44 PM) Muss is now known as lovelySnuggles
(10:12:49 PM) OJ: ...that would /especially/ fuck with the minds of old formerly-Loose folk of the kind I favor playing. I like.
(10:18:56 PM) venPip|idle: Question.
(10:19:04 PM) statisticalDepression: Yes?
(10:19:14 PM) venPip|idle: What would happen if replayers ended up with more conscious control of who they play with
(10:19:17 PM) venPip|idle: ?
(10:19:34 PM) statisticalDepression: oh god
(10:19:40 PM) Keleviel: ...Hm
(10:19:41 PM) Keleviel: Well
(10:19:45 PM) statisticalDepression: that feels like it would end badly, somehow
(10:19:49 PM) Keleviel: We'd have to keep it out of the hands of the spiteful and the vengeful
(10:19:56 PM) keeningMorrigan: yyyeah
(10:20:01 PM) Keleviel: What if Snaplock had control and ended up in a session with Heries?
(10:20:02 PM) Krat: That would depend hugely on how much control each person had
(10:20:06 PM) Keleviel: That wouldn't have ended well
(10:20:11 PM) Krat: do both people have to be like 'yes I want to play with you'
(10:20:24 PM) ***venPip|idle is just kicking ideas out.
(10:20:26 PM) Krat: or is it 'man I wish I could find X, Y, or Z so I can murder/flay/turn them into a hand puppet'
(10:20:29 PM) lovelySnuggles: What if it was kinda mixed in with what we have going on right now?
(10:20:35 PM) Keleviel: And how is it implemented, too
(10:20:42 PM) venPip|idle: Another significant setting change would be altering the assumptions for inter-session travel
(10:21:02 PM) OJ: Oooh. Like someone making a universal Deal for /all/ ring Travel and ring servers?
(10:21:05 PM) lovelySnuggles: Like, people who like each other more are said to roll together more, if they more consciously wanted to be with people they liked, they'd have a higher chance?
(10:21:07 PM) countedFish: like, Ring voyages are more readily done?
(10:21:25 PM) ***countedFish makes faces at the lag
(10:21:28 PM) statisticalDepression: Like opening up Skaiatravel a bit more?
(10:21:36 PM) lovelySnuggles: (Also, imagine just like)
(10:21:43 PM) OJ: And the process for Ring travel becomes more of a 'licensing' deal rather than a 'we will get things from you while you are desperate' deal
(10:21:44 PM) lovelySnuggles: (200 mile long line to play with GM)
(10:21:46 PM) OJ: perhaps
(10:21:50 PM) venPip|idle: more like the latter than the former
(10:21:55 PM) Keleviel: (Aha)
(10:22:05 PM) OJ: Opening Skaiatravel could work, too!
(10:22:15 PM) Keleviel: I want to see that as a thing, Skaiatravel
(10:22:33 PM) lovelySnuggles: (The session never ends though, because GM and Rosemary end up having a never ending fight and debate)
(10:22:42 PM) OJ: Perhaps /opening/ Skaiatravel could be a metaplot of its own
(10:22:49 PM) lovelySnuggles: (The HT's don't try to destroy the session because it's too entertaining to watch)
(10:23:10 PM) OJ: along the lines of if the Players are trying to keep the Angels from piecing together the Hymns, maybe they've got something in 'em
(10:23:13 PM) lovelySnuggles: (.../me runs off with that head canon as to why we don't see them)
(10:23:17 PM) venPip|idle: I had the sudden idea of 'what if your replayer suddenly found themselves in a totally different place and set of assumptions re: Being A Replayer, and they had to realize that things are /bad/ back home, and they Could Be Different.'
(10:23:33 PM) OJ: What do you mean by that?
(10:23:51 PM) Keleviel: I don't think there's any replayers who think the things they go through are good, really
(10:23:59 PM) postmodernPrometheus: ^
(10:24:04 PM) venPip|idle: well, the skaiatravelling/hosting replayers versus the ringtravellers seem to have pretty different cultures
(10:24:10 PM) venPip|idle: but, yeah, true.
(10:24:16 PM) keeningMorrigan: mostly because we've
(10:24:21 PM) Krat: I think that the agency to actually change them is pretty unusual for Replayers, though.
(10:24:26 PM) keeningMorrigan: barely seen anything of skaiatravelling/hosting replayers
(10:24:32 PM) Keleviel: Yyyyeah
(10:24:39 PM) Keleviel: I think there was a Timoran, and
(10:24:46 PM) Keleviel: Another one of Ish's characters?
(10:24:48 PM) venPip|idle: agency to change what?
(10:24:48 PM) Keleviel: And that was about it
(10:24:56 PM) venPip|idle: gildedDragon, Alex Bairn
(10:24:59 PM) Krat: things being bad
(10:25:06 PM) Krat: in reference to what you said above
(10:25:23 PM) lovelySnuggles: ...I've also got to admit, that all this happening would really mix up things concerning the IRC as it is right now
(10:25:31 PM) lovelySnuggles: Like the server that Vi runs and all the admins and stuff
(10:25:47 PM) lovelySnuggles: Because it'd change things for better and for worse in some ways for how they run?
(10:26:25 PM) OJ: Epi will go over to Vi's session /solely/ for the purpose of finding the servers that he colocated there and gazing at them benevolently, then snapping a picture and putting it in a newspost.
(10:26:50 PM) OJ: (what)
(10:26:56 PM) statisticalDepression: Vi would freak out because suddenly she is now the motorway service station to the replayer community
(10:27:02 PM) OJ: (you get the chance to travel anywhere and be with anyone and you choose /that/?)
(10:27:08 PM) Keleviel: Ironic Selfie With The Servers
(10:27:12 PM) lovelySnuggles: Imagine if Vi's session became like
(10:27:16 PM) OJ: You know, we need to figure out how to keep Vi's session from basically becoming Can Town
(10:27:21 PM) Keleviel: Although, uh
(10:27:23 PM) statisticalDepression: Simple
(10:27:28 PM) venPip|idle: We do?
(10:27:29 PM) lovelySnuggles: Selfi capital?
(10:27:30 PM) Keleviel: It never ends
(10:27:33 PM) Keleviel: So it never begins
(10:27:38 PM) Keleviel: And thus there's no new players
(10:27:40 PM) statisticalDepression: Adjust the terms of the bargain they have keeping her stable
(10:27:46 PM) OJ: If people can travel there, some will /stay/ there, unless - yes
(10:27:50 PM) Keleviel: So that takes care of people rolling with her
(10:28:02 PM) lovelySnuggles: It could be a pit stop almost?
(10:28:03 PM) Keleviel: Yeah that works
(10:28:20 PM) statisticalDepression: So you can't have too many people joining her because the whole thing destabilises and the costs do not scale in a linear manner
(10:28:22 PM) venPip|idle: I thought Can Town had a working /door/ because then kids went through it on their Coming-of-Age.
(10:28:32 PM) lovelySnuggles: People could kinda visit, but if they stay too long, they'll probably notice that some tentacles are trying to swat at them soon enough
(10:28:43 PM) Krat: Sessions could have set people limits, and pushing past those limits stresses/potentially breaks it.
(10:28:51 PM) OJ: Zu, are you talking about AUv2 Ancestor Worship Can Town, or...?
(10:29:10 PM) venPip|idle: Most of them seem to contain the assumption that your kids go out and play sbrub and come back.
(10:29:26 PM) OJ: Because AUv2 Ancestor Worship Can Town doesn't have a Working Door.
(10:29:26 PM) Krat: Like, if you bring 14 people into a 12 person session, no biggie. If you bring 120 people, you're risking everyone's lives. Also happens to explain doomed non-player mechanics - the game's trying to protect itself from excess strain.
(10:29:34 PM) OJ: Krat: Iiiiinteresting
(10:29:40 PM) OJ: We'd have to figure that out in a session that /wasn't/ Vi's tho
(10:29:48 PM) Keleviel: Hm
(10:29:50 PM) postmodernPrometheus is now known as oven
(10:29:52 PM) OJ: breaking the timetrav would be bad
(10:29:53 PM) OJ: very bad
(10:30:03 PM) Krat: Maybe it's discovered before you break it?
(10:30:07 PM) lovelySnuggles: It could be the first attempted, but failed, cantown?
(10:30:08 PM) Keleviel: Yyyyeah
(10:30:18 PM) Krat: Give codebreakers a positive contribution to the community, for once.
(10:30:18 PM) Keleviel: Maybe there's a proclamation
(10:30:25 PM) OJ: Muss, the problem with breaking the timetrav is it breaks the IRC entirely
(10:30:25 PM) Keleviel: "This is what's new"
(10:30:33 PM) lovelySnuggles: Someone tries to make an infinitely lasting session, people start to pile up, so the game basically crashes it
(10:30:36 PM) OJ: so an attempted Can Town would be -
(10:30:40 PM) lovelySnuggles: No wait
(10:30:42 PM) Krat: Also, having a session full of people break the game and die horribly probably wouldn't help the whole 'let's make this less bleak' thing
(10:30:54 PM) lovelySnuggles: No wait wrote it down there
(10:30:56 PM) Keleviel: Pff
(10:31:00 PM) statisticalDepression: Maybe Cantown isn't a single session?
(10:31:24 PM) statisticalDepression: Lash a half-dozen Dreadnaughts to one another and fly them through the Ring, stopping at sessions as needs be
(10:31:25 PM) OJ: Well, we have two sessions that are deliberately stabilized, and I don't think I should volunteer Epi, Skye, Dawn and Echo for the entire 'die horribly' thing
(10:31:33 PM) OJ: either
(10:32:11 PM) keeningMorrigan: okay are we still 'just brainstorming' or is it okay to raise objections
(10:32:35 PM) OJ: although to be entirely fair this means that Skye is tentacletouched and has magic session-stabilizing powers
(10:32:48 PM) OJ: which isn't the assumption I had in mind at all!
(10:33:04 PM) statisticalDepression: Go ahead and throw an objection in, I think
(10:33:05 PM) Keleviel: I have no idea anymore
(10:33:20 PM) lovelySnuggles: (Speaking for myself, the majority so far seems to be following this idea and what could be done with it, I'm pretty sure it's safe now to throw objections to things tied in with it)
(10:33:26 PM) Keleviel: We have the general idea up and out and now we're talking about the details
(10:33:36 PM) lovelySnuggles: Yes what Wyrm said
(10:35:13 PM) keeningMorrigan: okay i am not okay with lessening the weight and importance of ring voyages, with reducing the leathality of the game, with introducing any kind of conscious replayer ability to choose who they play with, and with the creation of anything that is basically labelled cantown and basically a fuckload of other stuff that's been brought up
(10:35:37 PM) keeningMorrigan: to be perfectly honest i like the idea of the denizen's role being mixed up a bit and the rest is seriously putting me on edge
(10:36:00 PM) OJ: Fucking with the Denizen's role seems to be pretty much unanimous as much as we /have/ the concept of unanimity here
(10:36:23 PM) OJ: the other thing on display seems to be Skaiatravel as the alt to Ring travel, which has been known to be a thing for a /very/ long time and we have people who do it who aren't Angeltouched now
(10:36:37 PM) Keleviel: It's "fucking with it towards the goal of the game being easier and better for someone to become a better person"
(10:36:57 PM) OJ: the 'reducing the lethality of the game' thing is still skeevy, yes
(10:37:06 PM) lovelySnuggles: Mmm
(10:37:15 PM) keeningMorrigan: skaiatravel, if it's an alt to ring travel, i would prefer to be just as dangerous, even if it has to be in a different way
(10:37:25 PM) OJ: How about if Skaiatravel /has/ dangers comparable to Ring travel? Like, you see into all possible sessions in however many dimensions and it breaks some people's brains so they don't come back out?
(10:37:35 PM) statisticalDepression: Yup
(10:37:43 PM) oven: I don't know why the game has to be conducive to becoming a better person
(10:38:04 PM) lovelySnuggles: Well, it was technically why the game was made?
(10:38:07 PM) Keleviel: Because that's the whole /point/ of the game
(10:38:15 PM) Keleviel: Personal growth
(10:38:27 PM) OJ: I dunno, we can screw with the Denizen and Lands /without/ making the Game inherently more suited to the people living in it, if that's what we want
(10:38:28 PM) oven: actually I think it's the means by which universes reproduce
(10:38:36 PM) statisticalDepression: Skaia is a very Non-Euclidean environment, I'd say
(10:38:39 PM) Keleviel: And then things got fucked up by bad design and glitches and now we're pushing it back towards how it is
(10:39:14 PM) lovelySnuggles: The universes were meant to be a /side/ /effect/
(10:39:23 PM) lovelySnuggles: The thing you get when you finish growing and win
(10:39:33 PM) OJ: I think the Skaiatravel proposal is more popular than the 'make the Game less... brainwashy and more legit-personal-growthy' proposal
(10:39:35 PM) lovelySnuggles: But you aren't getting it anymore, so it just makes new ones
(10:40:09 PM) keeningMorrigan: it's still kinda brainwashy?
(10:40:10 PM) oven: it's something you decide for your individual characters, whether you want them to learn good lessons or not so good ones
(10:40:38 PM) keeningMorrigan: it's forming you in a certain direction, whether you want to go that way or not- and generally it makes you want to cooperate
(10:40:44 PM) OJ: Point
(10:40:52 PM) Keleviel: There's still lessons to learn
(10:40:58 PM) OJ: Okay, less /traumatizing/.
(10:41:01 PM) Keleviel: That is still a large part of the game
(10:41:31 PM) Keleviel: Whether or not that's a side part towards the universe things, or the universe things are a side part to that, it's still a major part of the game
(10:41:36 PM) keeningMorrigan: and as for they're 'good' or 'bad' lessons- there's always the misattribution of plotlines, people get glitched to get the wrong denizen archetype, if you /really/ want to force someone off track
(10:42:02 PM) OJ: The Murdergame can /stop/ being the Murdergame and still be perfectly traumatizing, just in a more subtle way, depending on how it's played.
(10:42:12 PM) OJ: Is that something we are open to people doing?
(10:42:16 PM) oven: no
(10:42:29 PM) OJ: Personal opinion, or...?
(10:42:55 PM) oven: why would you ask if you didn't want people's opinions
(10:43:10 PM) OJ: Are you speaking for yourself or the group when you say 'no'?
(10:43:37 PM) oven: how could I be speaking for the group
(10:43:55 PM) statisticalDepression: Some people will just sort of do that sometimes
(10:44:03 PM) statisticalDepression: It gets confusing so we prefer to make sure
(10:44:21 PM) OJ: It was /possible/ that you could say 'no, because this discussion was trying to find ways to make the game /less/ traumatizing and you're moving away from that premise-of-discussion'
(10:44:52 PM) lovelySnuggles: (Basically just a wording thing which can lead to misunderstandings)
(10:45:23 PM) OJ: in which case I would say the /purpose/ was to shake the characters up moreso than unfuck everyone and live happily ever after
(10:46:01 PM) Keleviel: Wasn't the original purpose to make the session less oppressive and less of something where there was no way to win?
(10:46:09 PM) OJ: Point.
(10:46:33 PM) OJ: Something that would give them hope. Something that would let our characters feel like they've made progress, and move them forward on some sort of story arc instead of treading water.
(10:46:47 PM) OJ: Is this about right, or is it a serious misinterpretation?
(10:46:58 PM) countedFish: sounds about right to me, yeah
(10:47:05 PM) Keleviel: That's what I interpreted it as
(10:47:57 PM) OJ: Thank you. In that case, I'd prefer for it to be something the /players/, by and large, create, rather than something the Game imposes on them. Such as a metaplot of Game research unlocking Skaiatravel.
(10:49:58 PM) OJ: There are already people who have done it, who could share how, and some people could get lost on the way, and some people could succeed, and eventually we'll get more successes than failures...
(10:51:55 PM) oven is now known as lawTroll
(10:52:47 PM) OJ: I'd like to get /some/ reaction to this. The complete silence is unnerving me a little.
(10:53:25 PM) Keleviel: Sorry, was a bit distracted
(10:53:42 PM) Keleviel: Well, that does sound like an interesting idea
(10:54:01 PM) Keleviel: I feel there should be a "but" in there, but I'm having trouble actually coming up with it
(10:54:11 PM) keeningMorrigan: i haven't got a problem with people working more on skaiatravel, from your summary
(10:55:05 PM) countedFish: I'd like something along those lines, too. Something that the players make, for themselves and each other, and which /eventually/ makes things a little better.
(10:55:23 PM) OJ: Perhaps someone stumbles through a Skaia into a session earlier on the timetrav and has problems with that, then has to explain not only to Violet, but eventually to /everyone/
(10:55:24 PM) lovelySnuggles: (My thoughts right now are mainly actually along the lines of "should we continue trying to think about the main things brought up, or focus on the things everyone seems to all like, and make sure that it'd still be like that after it'd be implemented?)
(10:55:30 PM) Keleviel: Ah, got one
(10:55:36 PM) Keleviel: That's not much of an actual change
(10:55:43 PM) Keleviel: Skaiatravel comes up, okay, great
(10:55:54 PM) Keleviel: If it's just as hazardous as Ring travel, then so what?
(10:56:26 PM) OJ: This is true. But you're not thinking broadly enough. If it is even a /smidgen/ less hazardous than Ring travel - and it will be less hazardous than Ring travel for many people already solely due to the fact that it involves, in its ideal form, neither Angels nor Others - then it will be used.
(10:57:03 PM) Keleviel: It still feels like not enough of a change
(10:57:19 PM) OJ: And the methods can further improve. Better mnemonics for keeping your head inside the Wood between the Worlds, perhaps, or a way of identifying /which/ session you're going to that doesn't take years.
(10:58:09 PM) Keleviel: And is that going to kickstart more of a part in the game where people will travel more readily between sessions?
(10:58:11 PM) OJ: Bobbin, are you okay with it eventually being less hazardous than Ring travel?
(10:58:36 PM) lovelySnuggles: It sounds like it'd affect the veterans with close connections more then just everyone in the game as a whole so far
(10:58:38 PM) OJ: You said you weren't, earlier, but it will already be less hazardous than the Ring for vulnerable populations and will become less hazardous than the Ring for a /lot/ more people as the research improves it
(10:59:02 PM) OJ: and unless it is less hazardous then it won't change /much/
(10:59:05 PM) lovelySnuggles: Because why would people risk the dangers of travelling sessions if they don't have a real reason to?
(10:59:16 PM) keeningMorrigan: my main issue is that by making it 'too easy' to just up and leave a session if there's big problems, you take away a lot of opportunities for forcing problm solving
(10:59:36 PM) OJ: This is... true, and interesting.
(11:00:15 PM) OJ: You're tapping into the Closed Circle-ness of the form 'we're all forced to deal with our coplayers and problems here in this session', and -
(11:00:42 PM) OJ: This /can/ be offset somewhat by things like the case of aligerousDecoy, where the Ring travel /brings/ the problem with it, rather than solving the problem
(11:00:54 PM) OJ: but it does force a change in the way you formulate your setting
(11:00:55 PM) OJ: so hmm
(11:04:55 PM) Keleviel left the room (quit: Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client).
(11:05:10 PM) OJ is now known as otherlawTroll
(11:05:19 PM) otherlawTroll is now known as OJ
(11:06:48 PM) lovelySnuggles: I...must admit personally I was more interested in denizen workings and how some things could change for some people depending on how far ahead they are in terms of experience and other things
(11:07:49 PM) OJ: I have to admit my primary trouble with the Denizen-and-land-changing-to-be-more-accommodating is that I'd prefer to have it be more /diverse/ rather than averaging out better-for-the-players
(11:07:55 PM) lovelySnuggles: Messing with ring and skaia travel aren't things I really know much about or have many ideas, so I don't think I'd help discussions involving how it works and changes
(11:08:57 PM) OJ: I... think I would be okay with the new Denizen and Land types being distributed as /glitches/ similar to the extra titles, rather than some sort of rollout of 'the game is going to be better at being the game now'
(11:10:45 PM) lawTroll is now known as oven
(11:10:47 PM) OJ: but I also have to point out that this is coming from I Write Trauma Into Literally Everything and I don't trust my ability to actually be /able/ to write a Game that was significantly more benevolent
(11:19:52 PM) You are now known as Zu|Sleepy
(11:25:37 PM) statisticalDepression left the room (quit: Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client).
(11:27:41 PM) lovelySnuggles: Conversation seems to have pettered off, and people are heading off to bed, continue this later maybe?
(11:33:22 PM) Zu|Sleepy: yeah
(11:33:26 PM) Zu|Sleepy: \it'd be a good idea to log it and post it