Session Start: Sun Nov 12 23:57:50 2017
Session Ident: Okand37
[23:57] <Okand37> This should work. What'sup?
[23:58] <francinum> So yeah, is arresting someone
[23:58] <francinum> a law one violation enough for the borg to arrest the HoS?
[23:58] <Okand37> To my knowledge, the HoS had mentioned publicly (or atleast in a place the AI could hear) that they had the intention of executing them.
[23:59] <francinum> That wasn't mentioned in the ban reason.
[23:59] <Okand37> I believe it was, but I'll double check if I phrased it or not.
[23:59] <francinum> HoS because the HoS had previously stated on public communication they were going to arrest a human individual.
[23:59] <francinum> No statement about execution
[23:59] <francinum> but disregarding that, how do you expect me, a nonhuman, to dissuade a borg
Session Time: Mon Nov 13 00:00:00 2017
[00:00] <francinum> without them returning fire on me, which they have full clearance by asimov to do
[00:00] <Okand37> Not really as much dissuasion yourself, but you could equally flash it or bring it to robotics/another humanoid security officer.
[00:00] <francinum> I've been straight killed as sec by a law two order before
[00:00] <Okand37> Generally speaking, if someone orders someone to be killed in a scenario like that as a nonantagonist it can often be found put on their head.
[00:01] <Okand37> You do also have flashes and (I believe they work) flashbangs which are able to stun cyborgs.
[00:01] <francinum> Flashbangs do work, yes
[00:01] <francinum> Flashing it makes the borg target me, sensibly
[00:02] <francinum> killing it and bringing it to robotics simply makes it come back for me.
[00:02] <Okand37> In that case, if it does come back after you, you're welcome to kill it.
[00:02] <francinum> I left it in the brig for the HoS or other sec to handle
[00:03] <francinum> So I should allow it to come after me with full clearance to beat me to death and cremate my body?
[00:03] <Okand37> While I'm not expecting you to say... carry a toolbelt ready to lockdown the borg after flashing it, there is still some reasonable escalation required between the two parties before you can kill it and just leave it.
[00:03] <francinum> I would understand if I dragged it somewhere to hide the body, but I left it in security for the HoS or other officer to handle how they see fit.
[00:04] <Okand37> I'm not saying you have to surrender and let it kill you, but you do have equipment readily available for stunning it and if required you can get someone to either assist you with dealing with it or dissembling it.
[00:05] <Okand37> And yes, it is unreasonable to flash it and just keep flashing it until someone helps you, so disabling it by killing it then immediately bringing it somewhere is allowed-but you decided to leave it due to the aforementioned.
[00:07] <francinum> I personally don't see just leaving it in a semi-public space that bad
[00:07] <francinum> for my superior to choose what happens to it
[00:08] <Okand37> It is kind of like killing someone then leaving their corpse, even if its in a semi-accessible place you're still leaving its handling to someone else who may or may not actively take care of the situation.
[00:09] <Okand37> I do understand where you are coming from, and agree that at times it can be difficult-but its generally required individuals try to deal with the situation non-lethally first when a goal conflict arises and, if the cyborg must be deactivated momentarily, they should try to deal with the brain and or shell in some way.
[00:10] <Okand37> A creative solution might be to dissemble it then take the brain from its MMI and shove it into a genetics human-monkey.
[00:10] <Okand37> That way it can't "come back after you" as a silicon and can't reasonable come back to kill/cremate you without further escalation between both of you.
[00:10] <Okand37> reasonably, sorry*
[00:10] <francinum> Yes these are all valid ideas
[00:11] <francinum> but they're also extremely 'in hinesight'-style ideas
[00:11] <Okand37> It depends on how you think and approach situations, which is why I am not entirely reprimanding you purely for disabling it momentarily, but rather additionally for leaving it there as well.
[00:12] <francinum> My thought process, by the way I missed all of the HoS's radio messages so, I just saw a borg stunning the HoS
[00:13] <francinum> after we mulligan'd into traitors
[00:13] <francinum> with the HoS calling it being rogue as I check the most recent radio messages
[00:14] <francinum> That and I've previously had bad experiences with nonhuman sec and borg interactions as previously stated
[00:14] <Okand37> Which is reasonable, you see a borg trying to arrest the HoS and aren't quite sure why so you try to disable it... which is fine, but it is both important to attempt to verify a situation (but reasonably this isn't always easily done) and to as mentioned not merely leave it there without confirmation that it is or isn't rogue.
[00:15] <Okand37> Or an idea of why it was doing what it was.
[00:15] <Okand37> It's an especially strange situation when you're a non-human, as you don't have the same protections that a human does with asimov, but you also have fellow human security officers and have equipment capable of disabling them.
[00:16] <Okand37> Or, at the least, authority to have something done with their shell.
[00:18] <francinum> Would it have been fine if I had said 'HoS, handle the borg.' before walking off?
[00:20] <francinum> explicitly handing the responsibility of the borgshell to the HoS instead of allowing it to be implied?
[00:20] <Okand37> If you were willing to communicate with them and ensure after a few moments that they were dealing with the situation it may have been a bit more reasonable.
[00:20] <Okand37> But generally that can be kinda of.. "eh" depending on whether they do or don't.
[00:20] <Okand37> If it's a sort of "hey HoS please handle this" then after a time you see they haven't handled it then do it yourself, that's fine
[00:21] <francinum> is it unreasonable to expect the HoS
[00:21] <francinum> to have a small level of intuition to go 'I should probably handle this dead borg in robotics'
[00:23] <Okand37> It's not unreasonable to expect other players to do things, but at times the game requires some level of communication, especially in security when individuals can often be moving from one target to another like a hive of bees. Referring back to the previous example though, it would be asimilar to leaving a body of say.. a hulk, cause you couldn't arrest them for some minor thing and expecting someone
[00:23] <Okand37> else to deal with it.
[00:24] <Okand37> While it is nice to be able to expect other people to deal with it, it can be good when dealing with corpses to try to do it yourself or take some initiative to ensure it is being handled (ie: pass the body of the borg/whatever to the person and ensure it is in their hands)
[00:24] <Okand37> In other words, it isn't unreasonable-but sometimes people do unreasonable things.
[00:24] <francinum> No, the difference is a hulk intentionally made themselves a target, and exist purely to be pricks, but that's getting off topic.
[00:25] <Okand37> Perhaps so.
[00:25] <francinum> A borg on asimov is much more likely to be dealt with than the corpse of the geneticist who went on a wall-breaking spree
[00:26] <francinum> Also, what DID happen with the borg.
[00:30] <Okand37> Indeed, though I use the example as a situation where you're having to deal with someone that you can't reasonably imprison or disable without critting/killing.
[00:30] <Okand37> I cannot quite share the knowledge of the latter as the round isn't over, though I would be happy to give you a response after it is.
[00:31] <francinum> Was the borg brought to robotics as a reasonable human would expect
[00:31] <francinum> or was it left in security.
[00:33] <Okand37> After some contemplation, I suppose there is no harm in informing you as of the moment that it was left in security for another odd 10-to-12 minutes, roughly.
[00:34] <francinum> Did it eventually make it's way to robotics.
[00:34] <francinum> Or, you could have informed me to tell the HoS to run it up to robotics.
[00:35] <Okand37> I could have-but you have also been playing for quite some time, and after I had asked you, you had mentioned you understood what you did wrong.
[00:35] <Okand37> It may be different with a newer player, but you are by no means a stranger to these kind of situations, I would assume.
[00:37] <francinum> I'm no stranger to people following reasonable expectations of sentience.
[00:38] <francinum> So what I gather from this conversation is that my main mistake was expecting the HoS to be a reasonable person and handle a situation without being explicitly told what to do, as handling it myself would likely end poorly.
[00:40] <Okand37> It is a factor. Generally you should try not to go straight to killing the borg when its arresting the HoS, but as a non-human and with the situation that the HoS was calling it rogue you might not have a huge amount of options initially come to mind.
[00:46] <francinum> I did acknowledge that I shot a borg following their laws, I handed them off the the HoS to be brought to robotics, and only after shooting it did I learn the borg wasn't rogue, after I had left the area, which is when you PM'd me.
[00:47] <Okand37> And when questioned, you responded with (paraphrasing) "yea I know, if it was an issue then note me" and when further asked if you understand what you did wrong, you said you did.
[00:48] <francinum> I understand that yes I shot a borg that was following it's laws, and that in a straight reading of policy that's wrong.
[00:48] <francinum> However I only aquired that information AFTER shooting it.
[00:49] <Okand37> In a straight reading it is indeed wrong and, in the ruling that I believe was correct, it is also considered wrong by what I believe is appropriate response to the situation.
[00:49] <Okand37> But we're not focusing on just one or the other action, we're focusing on a mix.
[00:52] <francinum> What exactly with my actions do you take issue with, besides trusting another player.
[00:52] <Okand37> I have stated it earlier and quite honestly can't see a need to state it again. I assume if you were to bring the conversation up with me you would consider the responses I've given you carefully.
[00:53] <Okand37> If you wish to further dispute it, you're welcome to do so on the forums, but I must apologise that I do have other administrative business to attend to.
[00:53] <francinum> Understood, have a nice day.
[00:54] <Okand37> I appreciate it. Do enjoy your day! : )