#Corv 1


* “”The Hulk-Killer Humanoid can't actually do anything to hurt Broly. Even if he could, he wouldn't, for a number of reasons.
*  “Broly's durability is good and better than HKH's strength”
* “Broly's strength is better than HKH's durability because my opponent's stips make him weak for the tier”
* “Meanwhile, the HKH's striking appears generally superior to Hulk's own by virtue of Hulk being able to tank hours and days of hits at his own level, versus the HKH putting him on his ass in moments.”
	*  “Only problem with this is that Broly is more durable to strikes than Hulk.”

Broly’s punches and blasts bust multiple mountains and hits harder than Hulk

Broly’s durability and striking are correlated/not disparate

Broly’s ki explodes big

Broly's Chou Makouhou blasted directly through half a dozen mountains without stopping.

Aura bust

Broly > Hulk so he beats HKH

“Broly is likely to output more damage than the HKH can take, since the statements that make it so that the idea of "HKH ends his fight with Hulk in pretty much the same condition that he started it" are stipulated out. The fact that my opponent has stipped out Hulk's punches being regarded through statements as "useless, futile, or unable to stop [HKH]" must mean that strikes of Hulk's level or greater will in some fashion be "useful, fruitful, or able to stop HKH".”

Broly is physically superior

Broly rushes and HKH doesn’t block

Grappling doesn’t matter … “ because he never actually presses this advantage. The HKH isn't crushing anything or tearing anything, it's just holding Hulk in place so it can punch him. This action means nothing to Broly.”

HKH dropped a grapple from a fall that didn’t hurt him despite it being advantageous, meaning dumb or weak

HKH will literally just stand and eat ki blast(s)

Broly amps btw

Rick slap btw

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#Ralton 1

HKH > Hulk who busts mountains and doesn’t afraid of anything

* One-shots a city.
* "Can smash any mountain", a magic mountain taking his first blow only because it is enchanted.
* Bench presses someone with the weight of a mountain off of his chest.
* Supports 150 billion tons overhead.
* Takes a blast that crumbles mountains in the Andes.
* Takes a New York-busting explosion

Broly can’t grapple

Broly’s mountains are small

“His punch sent Broly through several "mountains", but nothing indicates that the "mountains" were "levelled" or affected anymore than this one”

Broly was actually sent through one mountain


> And by "mountains" my opponent means "a small bit at the top of one".

This isn't wrong but this is also literally the pressure broly exerts by existing harder, I don't know why you feel the need to counter this

> This is recursive scaling, scaling Broly to himself. It's meaningless. "Broly taking hits from Goku is better than taking hits from Vegeta because he takes the hits from Goku worse" is dumb.

 * If the scaling relevance is comparing Broly's offense and defense then it doesn't matter if it's recursive

HKH keeps smashing

> The force of the fall obviously isn't an issue, explicitly failing to hurt the Hulk-killer and vastly inferior to what the Hulk is outputting.

> Hulk at this point is basically beaten, so it makes more sense for the Hulk-killer to get off of its head, stand up, and wail on the Hulk; the Hulk-killer's goal is to kill the Hulk, not incapacitate him indefinitely with grappling.

> Against Broly, incapacitation is as viable an ends as death

I don't think this really proves that HKH is going to actively pursue or recognize his advantage, and it's not really explained why grabbing causes instant loss. "Incapicated" does not solely refer to the opponent grabbing you, HKH isn't doing judo holds or mounts he's AT BEST going to grab you so he can hit you

"Broly's physicals are trash if actually looked at with a modicum of care—the featured "mountains" are small and my opponent gratuitously oversells every interaction with them—and vastly inferior to the presented feats for the Hulk, which the Hulk-killer directly scales to."





***

* "At most generous direct scaling provided by the HKH's source material, the HKH takes hits that would shatter a mountain. That's it. But he sure do fight Hulk doe."

I half agree with this, I half don't. Within the actual context of the issue itself, I think this correct. While I do think this scaling has issues outside of what is present in this debate, I do not think the scaling has been refuted super meaningfully here.

> this means literally nothing, every hulkbuster is designed to bust hulk, and yet here we are without a single busted hulk

yea that's fair bro

Broly authors are definitely just trying to show mountains go boom

Even if the mountains are small as fuck he's doing it in a super good way

"Even if the mountains are small, Broly is directly taking a fuckload of energy from Vegeta's hits in order to bust them by being projectiled and destroying half a dozen of them"

again yea

"Broly is just the medium through which the strikes are compared."


* " stop challenging me on this pedantic garbage and just engage the argument's implications for your character as presented"

HKH is a dumb baby brained idiot

"in both instances, against an equal-ish opponent, the HKH just stood there when faced with new stimuli and options from his opponent, who he is motivated by his defining purpose to kill."

I don't buy the rick slap being an antifeat at all I'm ngl, outside of the debate I think it's very very obviously just making Rick not die because they still want to tell rick stories but considering HKH turns iron into dust about two pages later he's clearly not sub mike tyson

* Broly hits harder than the HKH has feats for being hit
* Broly tanks hits harder than the HKH can provably dish out
* Broly's ki attacks have gone completely unanswered by my opponent
* The HKH is a terrible fighter who throws away advantages like hot potatoes, and who is markedly inconsistent for a character with 17 pages to his name
* The HKH will not press a grappling advantage or is too weak to do so against undertier resistance
* The HKH will not press an initiative advantage
* The HKH prefers to wait and eat new attacks
* The HKH demonstrably didn't hurt Rick Jones despite having no reason not to

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#Ralton 2

The rest of this just feels like saying the same basic thing again without major new points, though at this point the blame is on both

* "Hulk feats big, Broly-sized holes small."

* "This is an overwhelmingly simple fight. My opponent hasn't really disputed any of the Hulk-killer's scaling to the Hulk, or the Hulk's feats, while their only argument for Broly's feats not being as bad as they're visibly shown to be is "this thing kinda looks like this other thing""

Corv pretty clearly mentioned the fact that even if the mountains are unreasonably small, he's not directly busting it. That isn't the only argument. In that context, and the fact that they are not actually explicitly referred to as mountains, I am both inherently sympathetic to "yea these are supposed to be mountains" and also "this is what we see".




***


All in all

 * HKH meaningfully pursuing or recognizing grappling seems like a stretch
 * Broly's ki attacks seem pretty free
 * Broly hitting harder than Hulk still seems likely
 * Hulk's feats were not given the same kind of in depth criticism

I feel bad repeating "X doesn't matter" feels cheap after a certain point but I still feel like most of this debate literally does not matter, who cares if Broly flies fast or doesn't, who cares how big the mountains in feats that aren't just The Striking Feat matters, in all honesty there are so many points thrown around this debate that I felt I had to actively compensate in taking note of individual threads to make sure I wasn't losing something. The only two things that really matter for HKH are the validity of the Hulk scaling, and the grapple. All that matters for Broly is if the mountains in The Striking Feat are big, but if they aren't big, then how impressive is projectiling the target through them as opposed to busting a single mass in a single, but direct punch? There's also a huge amount of criticism being levied by someone who has literally never interacted with a large volume of stone.

In "reality" I believe the situation in which the HKH scales to Hulk is actually just a weaker Hulk, while I think several of the mountain feats are valid or at least should probably be considered valid by the same logic Corv had (Ie "damn that punch totally looks like it would bust a mountain despite the fact that i am a random civillian watching two random bricks fight and it's probably about 13,0000 feet or equivalent to Mt. Elbert too").  And while it wasn't actually addressed by any debater, I have no idea how the HKH is 'organically' in tier when considering that something of comparable durability but made of rubber should never be able to be broken by someone who is way more durable than strong. But, again, I don't consider that Hulk to automatically equate to later feats, by my personal opinion. While this is not a huge part of the debate, I think the fact that HKH's stipulation kind of just fizzles into "Isn't out of tier" makes actually judging him more difficult than it reasonably should be.

Character arguments are both a dreg to read and make me think less of a winning debater and vastly less of someone who already lacks credibility.

To sum up my thoughts, this debate should have been 90% explaining why Hulk's feats are or aren't better, and instead it's like 80% arguing specific broly things that don't actually matter

Since the core of this part of the debate focuses on HKH = Hulk > Broly, let's look at the feats linked for Hulk previously

* One shots a city without a size implied in this debate
* Busts a durable mountain of questionable size
* Lifts someone who says "I am as heavy as a mountain"
" 150 billion tons lift (but Hulk's grappling has never been short of totally superior in all respects)
* Andes crumble, which I think is pretty good but hasn't really been elaborated on, while surface area and size arguments exist
* NYC bomb, which really is not immediately above the feats presented

When Broly's mountains are not just being portrayed through the lens of "These rocks are being destroyed", but "These rocks are being destroyed by hitting someone else" in an increasingly inefficient way I think it requires a generally higher burden of proof that hasn't been displayed here.

#Out of Tier

The out of tier request doesn't matter because

* Broly cannot one shot Hulk
* "Hulk grabs you" is one of the things provided for him as a tier setter

From a purely striking perspective, Hulk starts super durable, is hitting at a certain level in literally every blow and getting stronger. Hulk is smart enough to use grappling as a consistent advantage which gives him a general reliability even in the face of a much stronger opponent. Additionally, "Broly can't grapple" has been pursued by both debaters and is considered true by me, and Broly even at his highest reasonable interpretation does not generate the force to outright win in the initial clash.