Nonsexual Intimacy, and the trollish lifestyle.

(12:38:49 AM) epinephrineElectrified: Also FYI, the situation between Bryn and Epi slowly cooled to a more nonphysical less-romantic kind of thing??
(12:39:23 AM) thamal|online is now known as thallassianMalnoia
(12:39:36 AM) attractiveClavicle: Distance does all /sorts/ of things to relationships
(12:39:42 AM) epinephrineElectrified: because much as I would've loved to play a Normal Heterosexual Dude In A Nice Average Relationship that just wasn't happening because I have difficulty writing sex drive
(12:39:54 AM) attractiveClavicle: Dear
(12:40:00 AM) attractiveClavicle: sex drive ≠ romance
(12:40:10 AM) attractiveClavicle: could still be romantic
(12:40:29 AM) epinephrineElectrified: it depends on how you define romantic
(12:40:32 AM) epinephrineElectrified: I suppose
(12:40:41 AM) thallassianMalnoia: sex and romance are kinda two separate things?
(12:40:51 AM) thallassianMalnoia: at least as most people define them
(12:41:20 AM) epinephrineElectrified: ok
(12:41:37 AM) narquoisAthymia: It's not like they're not unassociated with each other in the slightest, though
(12:41:45 AM) attractiveClavicle: "I want to share an intimate relationship with you that is more than friendship but which is not familial"
(12:42:00 AM) keeningMorrigan is now known as cirrusRegnant
(12:42:19 AM) epinephrineElectrified: Like see I'm having difficulty telling that apart from "you're a really nice friend"
(12:42:22 AM) narquoisAthymia: Although I guess I shouldn't be quick to link sex and romance considering the only romantic relationship my main character is currently in is a non-sexual one
(12:42:32 AM) epinephrineElectrified: and I /know/ I have hangups
(12:42:34 AM) attractiveClavicle: And, see, I can respect and understand that
(12:42:37 AM) attractiveClavicle: Because /I/
(12:42:49 AM) attractiveClavicle: still have difficulties with the differences between friendship and Queerplatonic
(12:43:06 AM) attractiveClavicle: And I know that Queerplatonic's supposed to be an intimacy-beyond-friendship thing too
(12:43:26 AM) attractiveClavicle: But I have trouble seeing how it's expressly nonromantic so yeah
(12:44:04 AM) epinephrineElectrified: So, different words for similar-but-distinct concepts that are poorly separated?
(12:44:13 AM) attractiveClavicle: Sort of
(12:44:24 AM) attractiveClavicle: I would cuddle up to a friend
(12:44:29 AM) attractiveClavicle: but I wouldn't sleep with a friend
(12:44:30 AM) attractiveClavicle: Like
(12:44:37 AM) attractiveClavicle: fall asleep in the same bed as, spooning with
(12:44:44 AM) attractiveClavicle: Or shower with
(12:44:51 AM) epinephrineElectrified: mmm
(12:44:54 AM) epinephrineElectrified: yeah those
(12:44:58 AM) epinephrineElectrified: are things I can't contemplate
(12:45:00 AM) attractiveClavicle: That's a level of intimacy that is, for me, beyond friendship
(12:45:21 AM) thallassianMalnoia: that is certainly a level beyond friendship for me as well
(12:45:33 AM) attractiveClavicle: And they're not sexual things
(12:45:40 AM) attractiveClavicle: They are things-which-can-be-sexualized
(12:45:43 AM) attractiveClavicle: but they're not sexual
(12:45:47 AM) thallassianMalnoia: mmhmm
(12:46:19 AM) attractiveClavicle: But since the relationship's not /familial/ either it's a nonfamilial and nonsexual intimacy which goes beyond the normal bonds of friendship
(12:46:23 AM) attractiveClavicle: If that
(12:46:24 AM) attractiveClavicle: makes sense?
(12:46:29 AM) epinephrineElectrified: sorta
(12:47:01 AM) attractiveClavicle: Well, what's something that you wouldn't do with a friend, online, that isn't sexual?
(12:47:19 AM) attractiveClavicle: This is a question for everyone in this room
(12:47:33 AM) attractiveClavicle: There's also things like hairkisses and caressing and such
(12:47:39 AM) attractiveClavicle: I'd say handholding but
(12:47:43 AM) attractiveClavicle: I hold hands with friends so
(12:47:48 AM) attractiveClavicle: YMMV
(12:48:14 AM) epinephrineElectrified: My imagination is going pretty blank on this one
(12:48:20 AM) thallassianMalnoia: i don't hold hands with just friends, or do things like hair kisses or caressing. oddly enough i /will/ change in front of them no problems, but anything that involves touching constantly is a no
(12:48:49 AM) attractiveClavicle: Remaining nude around people I'm not comfortable with = nope no thanks
(12:48:58 AM) attractiveClavicle: Sharing some personal details
(12:48:59 AM) epinephrineElectrified: it's
(12:49:09 AM) epinephrineElectrified: really more of a question of whether I trust the other people not to /take/ it the wrong way
(12:49:19 AM) attractiveClavicle: I can understand that
(12:49:43 AM) thallassianMalnoia: see i don't mind causal nudity because it's inherently nonsexual for me
(12:49:50 AM) thallassianMalnoia: like just being naked isn't sexual in and of itself
(12:49:50 AM) attractiveClavicle: There's a lot of people who fundamentally do not understand asexuality and nonsexual romance, and nonromantic intimacy
(12:50:01 AM) cadentCorona: scritches /used/ to be in that category, when I was younger. I probably wouldn't change in front of a friend. (I get weird about doing that in front of /Mom/. Chris..used to pop  my acne and then have me wash my face/back afterwards, and he had some way of doing it that helped my skin clear up.
(12:50:22 AM) attractiveClavicle: Personal grooming is an intimate thing
(12:50:30 AM) attractiveClavicle: For some people it's a friends thing
(12:50:35 AM) attractiveClavicle: for some people it's a more-than-friends thing
(12:50:38 AM) thallassianMalnoia: yeah personal grooming is for sure something i would do only with people i share a 'more than friends' thing with
(12:50:39 AM) attractiveClavicle: once again YMMV
(12:50:39 AM) ***cadentCorona nods. Wiping something off someone's face.
(12:50:45 AM) attractiveClavicle: But yeah I've broken up with
(12:50:45 AM) narquoisAthymia: Only people you're close to are allowed to pick the nits off of you and eat them
(12:50:46 AM) attractiveClavicle: well
(12:50:50 AM) thallassianMalnoia: pff
(12:50:51 AM) attractiveClavicle: everyone I've broken up with
(12:51:01 AM) cadentCorona: (Exactly, Kel.)
(12:51:15 AM) attractiveClavicle: because of the whole sex ≠ romance ≠ intimacy thing
(12:51:57 AM) narquoisAthymia: (/Does/ romance ≠ intimacy?)
(12:52:07 AM) cadentCorona: (No!)
(12:52:08 AM) narquoisAthymia: (Because a romantic relationship that isn't intimate doesn't sound very successful)
(12:52:12 AM) cadentCorona: (er, yes.)
(12:52:23 AM) narquoisAthymia: (Or is this an "all toads are frogs but not all frogs are toads" sorta thing)
(12:52:25 AM) attractiveClavicle: Well
(12:52:29 AM) attractiveClavicle: Yeah I think it is
(12:52:30 AM) attractiveClavicle: Because
(12:52:37 AM) attractiveClavicle: you can be intimate with your family
(12:52:41 AM) attractiveClavicle: There is familial intimacy
(12:52:45 AM) cadentCorona: (There are intimacies that do not require romance. There are....people that are in love with the idea and the rush of being in love but may not know a damn thing about who that person /really/ is.)
(12:52:57 AM) attractiveClavicle: You can also be intimate with a sexual partner you have no romantic interest in
(12:53:05 AM) thallassianMalnoia: ^
(12:53:13 AM) thallassianMalnoia: that is kind of exactly what me and cobb are like
(12:53:15 AM) ***attractiveClavicle gestures to 'friends with benefit' and aromantic sexuals
(12:53:31 AM) attractiveClavicle: But I think romance is inherently intimate
(12:53:46 AM) x_Zeimah is now known as stanzicApparati
(12:53:48 AM) attractiveClavicle: sex can be intimate, but I don't think it /has/ to be, because intimacy is a perceived thing
(12:53:53 AM) epinephrineElectrified: nonromantic nonsexual intimacy: includes massage therapists (physical) and counselors (emotional) of various descriptions, presumably?
(12:54:15 AM) epinephrineElectrified: do I have the right idea
(12:54:22 AM) attractiveClavicle: and there are aromantic asexuals who can and will engage in sex (and can even enjoy it) but don't feel any sort of intimate connection
(12:54:41 AM) cadentCorona: You've got to set up certain boundaries as a professional caregiver/caretaker, but...yes.
(12:54:50 AM) attractiveClavicle: Agreed
(12:55:04 AM) attractiveClavicle: Those are two professions in which the services offered /can/ be intimate but
(12:55:13 AM) cadentCorona: healthcare professionals, given that confidentiality is a significant concern.
(12:55:23 AM) attractiveClavicle: Since it's explicitly a healthcare provider and patient sort of relationship
(12:55:32 AM) attractiveClavicle: it's not intimate
(12:56:03 AM) epinephrineElectrified: Well, see, I bring it up because a lot of people without understanding of "the whole sex ≠ romance ≠ intimacy thing" frequently fall in love with these kinds of providers
(12:56:08 AM) attractiveClavicle: in just the same way that your gyno performing a routine examination isn't / shouldn't be intimate
(12:56:14 AM) attractiveClavicle: Yeah
(12:56:17 AM) cadentCorona: that would be hells of creepy.
(12:56:40 AM) thallassianMalnoia: i would never go again oh my god that would freak me out
(12:56:49 AM) attractiveClavicle: Exactly.
(12:57:25 AM) attractiveClavicle: intimacy is... a mutually-experienced sympathetic emotional intensity between two people????????
(12:57:50 AM) epinephrineElectrified: mmmmm
(12:58:29 AM) attractiveClavicle: idek how to best describe it
(12:58:48 AM) narquoisAthymia: A shared moment of mutual weakness?
(12:58:52 AM) attractiveClavicle: I wanna sit in an asexual space and ask people questions until I grok this all and can help /other/ people understand
(12:59:09 AM) attractiveClavicle: Mmm
(12:59:10 AM) attractiveClavicle: maybe?
(12:59:24 AM) cadentCorona: 'vulnerability' is better than 'weakness.'
(12:59:59 AM) cadentCorona: but 'you can't make connections with others if the shields are up and the gate is barred' is what it comes down to.
(1:00:40 AM) attractiveClavicle: ...HMM
(1:00:43 AM) narquoisAthymia: Well, sure
(1:00:43 AM) epinephrineElectrified: I think ICly there's a good fraction of Epi thinking something along the lines of, are people going to judge him if he /can't/ maintain conventionally sexual/romantic LDRs as compared to if he /won't/?
(1:00:49 AM) attractiveClavicle: I now have a bunch of questions to poke at Cobb with
(1:01:06 AM) attractiveClavicle: Bryn won't judge
(1:01:10 AM) attractiveClavicle: No matter what, she won't!
(1:01:18 AM) stanzicApparati: Cy won't either!
(1:01:34 AM) narquoisAthymia: There's a lot of people who won't
(1:01:51 AM) cadentCorona: internet relationships in Sburb suck eggs. Ross won't. (Ross is a hypocrite if he judges /anyone/, re: romance, sometimes.)
(1:02:11 AM) epinephrineElectrified: See, the thing is that 'has a problem with attachment that lets Dude screw as many people as he wants without more than a perfunctory hand-wring and thus help perpetuate double standards' is... a really terrible trope that I have had the fortune of only seeing on Mary Sue tests
(1:02:35 AM) narquoisAthymia: "internet relationships in Sburb suck eggs. Ross won't."
(1:02:42 AM) narquoisAthymia: That makes me think that Ross won't suck eggs
(1:03:06 AM) cadentCorona: There are much better ways to eat eggs.
(1:03:10 AM) cadentCorona: And much better things to suck.
(1:03:17 AM) stanzicApparati: ...see, now I'm wondering why anyone would want to suck eggs
(1:03:27 AM) stanzicApparati: Raw egg would taste awful
(1:03:49 AM) thallassianMalnoia: i dunno i like the taste of egg yolk
(1:03:50 AM) attractiveClavicle: Dude
(1:03:57 AM) attractiveClavicle: Partially cooked egg yolk
(1:04:01 AM) attractiveClavicle: delicious
(1:04:05 AM) epinephrineElectrified: According to Gary Paulsen, raw eggs go down about as slimy as they look and taste vaguely of used motor oil.
(1:04:07 AM) narquoisAthymia: Yeah, no one wants to suck eggs
(1:04:17 AM) narquoisAthymia: Therefore, it's a bad thing if someone tells you to suck eggs
(1:04:23 AM) narquoisAthymia: Like telling someone to eat shit
(1:04:38 AM) epinephrineElectrified: They're not even especially erogenous, compared to what you /could/ be sucking
(1:05:09 AM) attractiveClavicle: Something something I have a headcanon that troll genetic material tastes vaguely like egg yolk
(1:05:20 AM) attractiveClavicle: (waterier though)
(1:05:31 AM) thallassianMalnoia: i am oddly okay with that
(1:05:32 AM) cadentCorona: ...you would also use egg yolk to simulate the taste of grubsauce.
(1:05:35 AM) ***cadentCorona squints at.
(1:05:37 AM) attractiveClavicle: We /know/ it's really nutrient-rich
(1:05:54 AM) attractiveClavicle: Like, it is literally the stuff that feeds the grub
(1:06:00 AM) attractiveClavicle: So it is the stuff that the MG ingests
(1:06:06 AM) attractiveClavicle: to get the nutrients she needs
(1:06:08 AM) attractiveClavicle: to make the eggs
(1:06:27 AM) cadentCorona: Hm. Point!
(1:06:34 AM) attractiveClavicle: And the eggs themselves, if we wanna go with the wet incubation method
(1:06:55 AM) attractiveClavicle: are literally kept in concentrated slurry to absorb nutrients
(1:08:08 AM) itsAlana: i've never heard that one before! :O
(1:09:08 AM) attractiveClavicle: We've talked a few times
(1:09:21 AM) attractiveClavicle: Basically, a lot of people here like the idea that grubs start off capable of like
(1:09:25 AM) attractiveClavicle: surviving underwater
(1:09:37 AM) attractiveClavicle: with little grub-gilllets
(1:10:00 AM) attractiveClavicle: so that would make sense that they're like, hatched in moist or seaside or waterside environments
(1:10:06 AM) attractiveClavicle: except /that/ encourages growth of fungi
(1:10:14 AM) overwroughtStenographer: well make it salt water
(1:10:16 AM) attractiveClavicle:  /unless/ you're looking at someplace briny
(1:10:25 AM) overwroughtStenographer: fungi can't survive
(1:10:27 AM) attractiveClavicle: Yep
(1:10:30 AM) attractiveClavicle: So
(1:10:34 AM) overwroughtStenographer: except for oomycotes but they aren't real fungi so who cares about them
(1:10:41 AM) attractiveClavicle: briny caverns
(1:10:50 AM) attractiveClavicle: soft-shelled eggs that can pull nutrients through them
(1:11:01 AM) attractiveClavicle: And look at the sheer amount of genetic material trolls produce
(1:11:14 AM) attractiveClavicle: something between a quart and a gallon /every/ /sweep/
(1:11:16 AM) attractiveClavicle: huge
(1:11:17 AM) attractiveClavicle: ridiculous
(1:11:19 AM) overwroughtStenographer: actually oomycotes will pretty often parasitize soft things
(1:11:20 AM) attractiveClavicle: amounts
(1:11:37 AM) attractiveClavicle: concentrate it, feed it to the grub
(1:11:43 AM) attractiveClavicle: use it to fertilize the eggs
(1:11:46 AM) overwroughtStenographer: oomycetes* wow have I been spelling it wrong the entire time
(1:11:48 AM) attractiveClavicle: okay, you've got a shit-ton left over
(1:12:05 AM) attractiveClavicle: how about you like, sterilize it, make it into a briny nutrient solution, and like
(1:12:09 AM) attractiveClavicle: let the eggs develop in that
(1:12:50 AM) attractiveClavicle: have drones or lusii (headcanon: giant land-octopi or the like aren't terribly uncommon jade lusii) keep a good oxygen flow over the eggs
(1:12:52 AM) cadentCorona: (Tell me more about oomycetes in PM, oven.)
(1:13:27 AM) overwroughtStenographer: that's all that's really relevant about them
(1:13:35 AM) attractiveClavicle: And I'm sure modern medicine can help with outbreaks of water molds