A Legacy of Butthurt

<AspiringDM>: Generally, it's more "race restrictions" than anything.
<AspiringDM>: Goblins, kobolds, orcs, drow, typical dungeon fodder.
<Anontidae>: I'd also struggle to call Drow 'typical dungeon fodder'
<AspiringDM>: Well, the Lesser Drow without all the fancy abilities and such.
<Mavrickindigo>: hm...
<Mavrickindigo>: man is there a database with the different races and classes in 3.5 I know there's like a bajillion
<Anontidae>: So how will you go about balancing races?
<AspiringDM>: Anyway, current adventure ideas are "test the new recruits by having them kidnap a princess"
<Mavrickindigo>: I would assume level adjustments
<AspiringDM>: And "go to a Japan analogue to poach pandas."
<Anontidae>: For instance, hobgoblins have +1 LA, and Kobolds take a penalty to CON, which is huge
<AspiringDM>: Oh, there's the Jungle Kobold that trades the Con penalty for an Int one.
<Anontidae>: Well, I suppose no kobold wizards then
<AspiringDM>: Kobolds get better options for sorcerer anyway.
<AspiringDM>: I'll be back in a bit, gotta round up the cats.
<Anontidae>: Yeah, but... sorcerer.
<Mavrickindigo>: ah alright
<Mavrickindigo>: well I'm going to be heading off myself
<Mavrickindigo>: if you sign up, let me know and I'll approve your account
<Anontidae>: AspiringDM: This sounds like a light-hearted comedy, from the way the post is written
<AspiringDM>: It is, really.
<Anontidae>: What's the point buy going to be? Starting level? Wealth?
<AspiringDM>: I got kind of burnt out on serious "evil cult trying to resurrect Tharizdun and destroy the multiverse" campaigns.
<AspiringDM>: I'm thinking of starting at level 3 or 4 so classes have the stuff that really distinguishes them.
<Mavrickindigo>: any class limits?
<AspiringDM>: Well, given that you're working for an evil overlord, you'd probably have to take an alternate alignment paladin like the Sentinel or something.
<AspiringDM>: But that's it really.
<AspiringDM>: Well, aside from "no Truenamers" but that's for your own benefit I assure you.
<Anontidae>: How will you be handling racial levels and level adjustment?
<AspiringDM>: I'll allow LA buyoff, but I'd prefer to keep the LA below 3.
<AspiringDM>: After that it just gets kind of silly.
<Anontidae>: So no troglodytes or warriors?
<AspiringDM>: Warriors are an NPC class, so I don't know why you'd want them. But if it floats your boat, sure.
<Anontidae>: Wait, no
<Anontidae>: Ogres
<Anontidae>: I read warrior while typing and typed it.
<Mavrickindigo>: how about
<Mavrickindigo>: savage species?
<AspiringDM>: Well, it's ECL 6.
<AspiringDM>: Savage Species is case-by-case.
<Mavrickindigo>: ah
<Mavrickindigo>: libris mortis undead?
<AspiringDM>: It has some good progressions, but then it also has Feral.
<Anontidae>: ECL 6, but characters only have three or two character levels?
<AspiringDM>: Libris Mortis is one of my favorite books, and I'll allow it.
<Mavrickindigo>: hm I see I see
<Mavrickindigo>: so we could be one of those dudes I guess
<AspiringDM>: Ogres have a total ECL of 6, which means they're a little powerful for starting out.
<AspiringDM>: I'm trying to remember where I saw this huge catalog of every race from 3.5, even from Dragon Magazine.
<AspiringDM>: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1281 Ah, here we go.
<Rollem>: AspiringDM likes to spam "Master +0 LA Race List III"
<AspiringDM>: And while the inclusion of "Spider" as a player race is hilarious, I'm gonna have to veto it unless you've got a REALLY good backstory.
<Anontidae>: Ogres have a high STR stat, and a great CON, but that's about all that's going for them. Those racial hit dice are dead levels. I wouldn't call them ECL6. More like... ECL2 or 3.
<AspiringDM>: ...I remember that link's title being "+0 LA Master Race List."
<AspiringDM>: Oh, I'd definitely be willing to say something like
<AspiringDM>: "your ogre's been pretty sick, so you've only got the one racial HD"
<Mavrickindigo>: hm... I remember once I tried to be an illithid, are illithids allowed? it'd have 2 hit dice at level 3, tentacles do 1d4, telepathy, detect thoughts, and levitate
<AspiringDM>: and then you can just buy up classes.
<AspiringDM>: Illithids I'm kind of sketchy on. They kind of tend to go "evil psychic overlord" at the drop of a hat.
<Mavrickindigo>: well my guy probably wouldn't be evil psychic overlord until at least level 15 when he gets all his abilities *shrug*
<Mavrickindigo>: just looking around
<Mavrickindigo>: could be a mummy
<Mavrickindigo>: or a troll perhaps
<Anontidae>: AspiringDM: I mean, can you justify the Hobgoblin's LA? They're not nearly as good as a Dwarf, but still have LA.
<Anontidae>: Also, you never got back to me on point-buy values
<Mavrickindigo>: anyway I need to head out, aspiring DM did you sign up to the forum?
<AspiringDM>: No ability penalties.
<Anontidae>: That's not really a reason, imo
<AspiringDM>: But since they only have the one racial HD, you don't have to take it.
<Anontidae>: I mean, dwarves have -2 to Charisma, the stat that's hardly ever used.
<AspiringDM>: Oh, I haven't gotten it up yet.
<Anontidae>: They also get +2 to saving throws against all spells and spell-like effects.
<Anontidae>: That's way better than not having an ability penalty
<AspiringDM>: I think that's mostly a way to discourage from playing hobgoblins in a conventional campaign anyway.
<AspiringDM>: I'm not gonna make you take LA for a hobgoblin in a game about dungeon denizens.
<Anontidae>: And they don't have racial HD!
<AspiringDM>: As for point-buy, I'm thinking 32 or the "all stats add up to 75" method.
<Anontidae>: All stats add up to 75?
<AspiringDM>: So they don't! My bad.
<AspiringDM>: Basically, your stats are bought 1-to-1, and you get 75 points for them.
<Anontidae>: 15 15 15 15 3 3
<Anontidae>: huh
<AspiringDM>: So you could be, say, Str 11, Dex 11, Con 11, Wis 11, Int 11, Cha 11 before racial stuff and have 9 points left over.
<Anontidae>: 3 14 (+2) 14 (+2) 18 14 12
<AspiringDM>: Yeah, that'd work.
<AspiringDM>: 3's pretty low for a strength score though.
<Anontidae>: Yeah, it's prudent to dock some from Charisma/Wis
<Anontidae>: You could bring it up to 7, easily
<Anontidae>: Ah, just for clarification, add up to 75 doesn't allow purchasing stats above 18, does it?
<AspiringDM>: Sadly, no.
<Anontidae>: Mhm.
<AspiringDM>: Or below 3.
<Anontidae>: Now, the true question: Will you be allowing homebrew?
<AspiringDM>: On a case-by-case basis, yes.
<AspiringDM>: Homebrew tends from awesome things like the samurai class which doesn't suck to "special snowflake" dumbness.
<Anontidae>: http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Soldier,_Tome_%283.5e_Class%29
<Rollem>: Anontidae fears "Soldier, Tome (3.5e Class) - Dungeons and Dragons Wiki"
<Anontidae>: An INT/CON-based Fighter who uses ToB-styled styles and maneuvers
<Anontidae>: Styles are what they get more of, and it's for utility most of the time. Maneuvers are just attack options.
<Anontidae>: Oh, I think ToB calls them 'stances'?
<AspiringDM>: Oh, I've got the Tome of Battle on here somewhere.
<AspiringDM>: Despite how I feel about the wuxia aesthetic, I really like what it does for martial characters.
<Anontidae>: Well, this class does even more for martials. ToB just made combat interesting. This class lets you play a grizzled 'nam veteran, with the utility to boot.
<Mavrickindigo>: well see no inactive members I'll check later I guess
<Mavrickindigo>: but for now, I will away
<Anontidae>: Bye, Mavrickindigo
<AspiringDM>: Later!
<AspiringDM>: I'll look over the class.
<Anontidae>: Oh, right. What is this over? Is it play-by-post?
<AspiringDM>: Probably.
<Anontidae>: Mmmmmm.
<Anontidae>: I think I've lost interest.
<AspiringDM>: Eh, fair enough.
<AspiringDM>: Okay this class is ludicrously unbalanced.
<Janus>: oh hey, a new person
<Anontidae>: AspiringDM: How so?
<Anontidae>: He can't cast spells at all
<AspiringDM>: Spellcasting isn't an indicator of balance.
<Anontidae>: Uh... huh.
<AspiringDM>: This class gets intelligence to attack rolls, a bonus to disguise equal to their ranks in disguise, the ability to ignore proficiency rules
<AspiringDM>: On top of all the other wonderful things that the racial stances you get every level let you do.
<Anontidae>: They have 3/4ths BAB in a game built around full BAB being the norm, as a combat class. Disguise is based off of Charisma, and thus not a strong ability score to invest in. Proficiency rules are meaningless. Racial stances allow the utility of spells for martial characters.
<AspiringDM>: Proficiency rules exist so we don't have Johnny the Whaler immediately using the laser gun he finds in the Temple of the Frog.
<Anontidae>: Because Orcs invented laser guns in your setting?
<AspiringDM>: No, because the Temple of the Frog is a published adventure featuring a crashed alien spaceship.
<AspiringDM>: It's... weird.
<Anontidae>: Well, you could simply not... have racial weapons be anything more than what they already are: worthless without a feat, and worthless because it takes a feat
<AspiringDM>: I honestly think the regular ToB classes are a lot more balanced.
<Anontidae>: They're really not.
<Anontidae>: What you think is unbalanced: "He can use weapons and he can use a skill"
<Anontidae>: What is actually unbalanced: First level Wizard spells
<AspiringDM>: The ones you can do better with alchemical items?
<Anontidae>: You mean the things that cost gold? That also don't, you know, provide feather fall, or color spray, or sleep?
<AspiringDM>: This class lets you get intelligence to attack rolls, saving throws, and strength and invisibility rolls...
<Anontidae>: So they can hit stuff, they aren't invalidated by a mind control spell, strength-based checks/skills are rarely, if ever used, and where's the part on invisibility?
<Janus>: ano: I found this really great post that delineates bias and racism
<Janus>: http://absurdistwords.tumblr.com/post/113096095809/how-to-discuss-race-with-black-people-faq-pt-1
<Rollem>: Janus would totally sleep with "AbsurdistWords � How to Discuss Race With Black People: FAQ PT 1"
<Anontidae>: If you mean the Gnome racial stance, that's just letting them not be seen by one creature per turn. Maybe more, if they somehow hit two in the same turn.
<Anontidae>: Janus: Stellar posts so far. The TL;DRs are great.
<AspiringDM>: See, I'm a little sketchy around articles about racism
<AspiringDM>: Because I'm of German descent.
<AspiringDM>: Specifically, German Jews.
<AspiringDM>: And every time I open my mouth I get accused of being a bigot.
<AspiringDM>: "Slaad: The soldier can Giant Frog at-will."
<AspiringDM>: ...While amusing I have no idea what this means.
<Anontidae>: Me neither.
<Anontidae>: I think it means they can transform into a giant frog?
<AspiringDM>: Summon a giant frog?
<AspiringDM>: Who knows.
<Anontidae>: Since it's a stance, I assume become one.
<Anontidae>: Like a naruto ninja
<AspiringDM>: ...It feels like this is an earlier draft of the class for some reason.
<AspiringDM>: Like, this is what it looks like before it gets playtested and features get hammered out.
<Anontidae>: I'm pretty sure this is the latest version of the class.
<Anontidae>: The later levels just aren't typically worried about, because so rarely does one reach them
<Anontidae>: That is, on the board this class came from.
<AspiringDM>: Eh... I'd say go for another Martial class, really. Some of these abilities are kind of unclear.
<AspiringDM>: Oh, right, one sec.
<Anontidae>: Which ones?
<AspiringDM>: Mostly regarding number of targets, and whether or not they get a save.
<AspiringDM>: Ah-ha! http://dndtools.pw/
<Rollem>: AspiringDM would totally sleep with "Home � D&D Tools"
<Anontidae>: Where?
<Anontidae>: Oh, good. A mirror.
<AspiringDM>: Database of wizards' published D&D content.
<Anontidae>: I was stuck using some cloudflare site
<Anontidae>: AspiringDM: The reason I like Soldier is that it puts martials on par with spellcasters
<AspiringDM>: Well, if you build a Tome of Battle character right, they do the same.
<Anontidae>: I guarantee you Soldier doesn't break the game nearly as hard as a spellcaster does
<Anontidae>: Not really.
<AspiringDM>: They get great abilities usable at-will.
<AspiringDM>: It sounds like you've had some really bad experiences with spellcasters.
<Anontidae>: No, I generally play spellcasters.
<AspiringDM>: *sigh* Okay. I hate pulling this out, but it's theoretical optimization time. I'm going to out-damage a wizard with a Fighter.
<AspiringDM>: Meet Krezznorg Strongtoss. Krezznorg is a very special Fighter.
<Anontidae>: Damage is meaningless.
<AspiringDM>: At the level I'm talking about it's not.
<Anontidae>: Notice how I've been constantly talking about utility, and not damage.
<AspiringDM>: Krezznorg has a +1 Level adjustment. This is because Krezznorg is a Half-Orc, Half-Ogre (+1, bumps you up to Large), Half-Minotaur (+0 for large), Half-Ogre (+0 for large, different template).
<AspiringDM>: This gives him a strength, with 16 before racial adjustments of... 40.
<Anontidae>:
<AspiringDM>: Now, Krezznorg is DOUBLY special because he's from a plane with high gravity! This doubles his carrying capacity.
<AspiringDM>: Any item under your light load can be used as an improvised weapon.
<AspiringDM>: Krezznorg is strong enough that a pirate ship can be used as his light load.
<AspiringDM>: By improvised weapon rules, an improvised weapon deals 4d6 damage at 200 pounds, plus 1d6 for every 200 pounds after.
<AspiringDM>: A typical galleon, the pirate ship used in most adventures, weighs several tons. Krezznorg counts this as a "light weapon" and thus is able to dual-wield them.
<Anontidae>: Okay... and where are you going with this?
<AspiringDM>: I'm saying with that level of strength, you don't need a lot of utility spells.
<AspiringDM>: Dimension door? Simply jump or smash your way in.
<AspiringDM>: Teleport? Bend over, grab your ankles, and save against massive damage from the hit and the fall.
<AspiringDM>: The point is
<AspiringDM>: Martial characters aren't meant to be utility casters. They're meant to know how to fight and how to use skills.
<Anontidae>: I don't see how jumping 35-40 feet compares to teleporting 400+40/level feet, or how falling off a cliff is comparable to teleporting to a major city. I also don't see why martials can't have the same utility that casters have. A character that only gets to some combat problems, and rarely are they able to do it without the help of a wizard, is a boring character to play because the player doesn't feel like it's their charact
<Anontidae>: er actually accomplishing anything.
<Anontidae>: A character that's a martial is cleanup detail for after the wizard casts the spell that wins the battle, or drastically improves the party's ability to do so.
<AspiringDM>: That's... generally not the experience I've had with a martial character. Even one as simple as a barbarian.
<AspiringDM>: You can do things the wizard can't. He gets tired and has to go to bed after a prolonged battle. The martial character spends a while letting the cleric patch him up.
<AspiringDM>: The tome of battle martial character surveys the carnage and wonders how he's going to use his magic karate to ruin someone else's day.
<AspiringDM>: This class, though, feels like it's trying to be every martial character and also spellcasters.
<AspiringDM>: It might be okay for a solo character, but D&D is largely about teamwork.
<Anontidae>: It's okay for spellcasters to do everything, from utility to dominating combat, but a martial isn't because that wouldn't be teamwork?
<AspiringDM>: Okay, here's the thing.
<AspiringDM>: Spellcasters don't have infinite spells per day.
<AspiringDM>: They can do utility very well.
<AspiringDM>: They can do combat very well.
<AspiringDM>: Once they have done those things they might as well be commoners.
<Anontidae>: And in a teamwork-based game, when a team member is incapable of participating, the party stops to rest.
<Anontidae>: By allowing a soldier to have some utility, you aren't forcing a wizard to cast spells all the time to do everything for everyone else... meaning they last longer.
<AspiringDM>: Ok, I'm sorry, but are you saying that a third level caster would be overpowered compared to the Soldier?
<Anontidae>: In addition to reducing the burden on the wizard to do everything, it gives greater agency to the martial characer with the utility, meaning that they feel like they are actively contributing to the party at all times, rather than during the one or two combat encounters that session.
<AspiringDM>: Because at lvl 3 spellcasters are throwing out a single 1d4+1 magic missile and hoping the enemy doesn't notice them hiding behind the muscleheads.
<AspiringDM>: ...And it has spell resistance.
<Anontidae>: Damage is meaningless, as I've said... at least twice before.
<AspiringDM>: Meet one of the Tome of Battle things for the Swordsage. http://dndtools.pw/spells/tome-of-battle-the-book-of-nine-swords--88/shadow-jaunt--3701/
<Rollem>: AspiringDM infringes on the copyrights of "Shadow Jaunt � Spell � D&D Tools"
<AspiringDM>: The swordsage is a martial character who gets many, MANY maneuvers like this.
<Anontidae>: Teleport 50 feet, as opposed to something like http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm
<Rollem>: Anontidae salivates over "Alter Self :: d20srd.org"
<AspiringDM>: You're ignoring something.
<AspiringDM>: That's teleport 50 feet at-will.
<Anontidae>: And what is this, a maneuver? Can you just spam that every round until you reach your destination?
<Anontidae>: I mean, running is already faster.
<Anontidae>: Dimension Door has a much greater reach.
<AspiringDM>: Dimension Door is a fourth-level spell.
<AspiringDM>: You get this 3 levels earlier than a wizard, 4 earlier than a sorcerer.
<Anontidae>: And at the same time that a wizard can turn into http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hawk.htm this
<Rollem>: Anontidae demands you view "Hawk :: d20srd.org"
<AspiringDM>: And as a Standard Action, you get this on top of your regular movement.
<AspiringDM>: ...How can a wizard turn into a wizard at level 3?
<Anontidae>: A hawk.
<Anontidae>: Alter Shape, that spell I linked earlier?
<AspiringDM>: A hawk, yeah.
<AspiringDM>: Alter Self only works for creatures of your own type.
<AspiringDM>: Humanoids can become other humanoids.
<Anontidae>: I'm sure you could find a flying humanoid.
<AspiringDM>: Yeah, I can think of one or two.
<AspiringDM>: Most of those are limited to "gliding" rather than flight though.
<Anontidae>: Stormwrack has swimming races, there's almost certainly a winged elf, there's things with climb speed...
<AspiringDM>: Alter Self is one of those spells that's better for non-humanoids.
<Anontidae>: Not sure if you can find a humanoid with burrow
<AspiringDM>: Sudden Leap's also pretty good.
<AspiringDM>: Sudden Leap -> Shadow Jaunt -> Move Action would get you (Jump Check) + 50 ft + Move Speed.