#versiondrift

(2:17:04 PM) bobbedNonsense [[email protected]] entered the room.
(2:17:10 PM) majesticInstability [[email protected]] entered the room.
(2:17:23 PM) spacetimeCounselor: so how's version drift work, "canonically"
(2:17:47 PM) majesticInstability: I think the same way genetic drift does if I remember anything about it correctly
(2:17:55 PM) majesticInstability: Which, admittedly, I probably do not
(2:18:00 PM) Zuki: Honestly? I don't think that's been established. I remember something about...let me check.
(2:18:42 PM) bobbedNonsense is now known as hearthlessPontifex
(2:18:55 PM) majesticInstability: But let's say that in session A, player X needed to take the code from the temple and program it as a game. Player X adds some stuff in for whatever reason
(2:19:01 PM) Zuki: 'Version Drift' is ultimately a theory to explain 'hey why are there things that used to be here, and now they aren't there, and now we have new things.' I know that it's been speculated or stated that 'sburb worked a little differently for this session' with reasons like 'because of how *whoever* --yeah
(2:19:13 PM) Zuki: differences in the 'got turned into a game from frog temple code'
(2:19:37 PM) majesticInstability: So if they win the Game and make a universe, that's multiple possible Games that then carry the code for whatever
(2:19:43 PM) Zuki: and the players know that veterans report things like 'there used to be a class called Faun' and 'hey, weren't the names for Flow and Rhyme switched around?'
(2:20:15 PM) Zuki: So people throw up their hands and say 'well...it's a video game, sort of? Maybe it's been 'patched''
(2:20:44 PM) spacetimeCounselor: okay that's basically what i figured- but now, what that doesn't properly explain is why faun doesn't show up anymore, or why the "older" versions of the game don't still show up- or at least only do so rarely
(2:21:04 PM) spacetimeCounselor: which ties into this idea i came up with
(2:21:11 PM) majesticInstability: Glitches over time? Being 'out competed' by the new stuff that we've more information on? I dunno! Let's hear it
(2:21:55 PM) spacetimeCounselor: that is, when someone compiles a new version of the game, it doesn't /just/ spread by being included in its child universes, because then the ratio would be the same
(2:22:29 PM) spacetimeCounselor: my proposal is that "updates" to the game spread laterally- that is, though replayers, who bring their updates into the sessions they replay into
(2:22:36 PM) majesticInstability: Oooo, you mean how bacteria can share DNA between themselves?
(2:22:55 PM) majesticInstability: asdjask PLASMIDS I think that's how they do it
(2:23:32 PM) spacetimeCounselor: like, let's say someone decides to mod the game for whatever reason, and makes some change like faun to clown
(2:23:33 PM) Zuki: Oooh.
(2:23:46 PM) Zuki: I am -very- okay with Replayers propagating changes.
(2:24:11 PM) spacetimeCounselor: and when they complete that session, that spreads, sure- and eventually, some players in that family tree of sessions end up as replayers
(2:24:21 PM) Zuki: It fits in nicely with the speculation that 'replaying is entangling a lot of timelines together into a single/bundled one'
(2:24:31 PM) spacetimeCounselor: and those replayers, when they move into a new session, get noticed by the game as coming from a new version
(2:24:42 PM) majesticInstability: We really need more people who view it as passing on less as game code and more genetic code
(2:24:43 PM) Zuki: And I also know that we have a few, but not many, replayers from or with ancient session traits.
(2:24:48 PM) spacetimeCounselor: and the game thinks "oh! we're not at the [latest version], let's update to the one this player is carrying
(2:25:04 PM) spacetimeCounselor: and this spreads it to the new tree
(2:25:22 PM) spacetimeCounselor: in fact, there's a mechanism in place for carrying that kind of information via players!
(2:25:43 PM) Zuki: Heh.
(2:25:45 PM) Zuki: It's called the dongle.
(2:25:50 PM) spacetimeCounselor: we know the game stores debug information in player subconscious- for instance, the genetic code of the debug npc
(2:25:58 PM) Zuki: or...no, that's better.
(2:26:06 PM) hearthlessPontifex: (ooo clevers happening)
(2:26:12 PM) spacetimeCounselor: but let's say the game stores other information, too- like essential session data
(2:26:14 PM) spacetimeCounselor: IDs and such
(2:26:20 PM) spacetimeCounselor: and the game can update based on that
(2:26:29 PM) Zuki: It's got an idea of how many times you've played and what classes/aspects, yeah.
(2:26:48 PM) Zuki: since 'how many times with one aspect' affects whisperings affinity, apparently.
(2:27:14 PM) spacetimeCounselor: so that's like the core thing, which seems to make sense, aight- players carry game data between sessions
(2:27:51 PM) spacetimeCounselor: now there's a Part 2 to the idea, which isn't a necessary part and could easily conflict with stuff and whatever, but
(2:28:03 PM) majesticInstability: Let's hear it and try and see what we can do with it
(2:28:08 PM) spacetimeCounselor: what if the replay game feature was added /deliberately/ to allow the game to update itself
(2:28:38 PM) spacetimeCounselor: that is, when a new update was added, replayers would move game code to new sessions to prevent people from getting behind
(2:29:18 PM) spacetimeCounselor: the original intent, perhaps, was that when a session failed due to a game-breaking bug, a replayer would be sent to that session in order to force an update, hopefully making it winnable
(2:29:53 PM) spacetimeCounselor: but the scheme encountered two problems- firstly, that replayers would get stuck in an infinite loop
(2:30:13 PM) spacetimeCounselor: and secondly, that sessions "infected" by a replayer would be forced into replaying themselves
(2:30:34 PM) spacetimeCounselor: thus slowly increasing the number of replay sessions in paradox space
(2:30:55 PM) Zuki: Yep. This is why 'one veteran in a replayer session' or 'mixed new/replay' session is bad.
(2:31:04 PM) majesticInstability: Even then, if you had a session code with a working door but moved on anyway...'Door is broken' code would outnumber 'Door is working'. Assuming the second is recessive...
(2:31:29 PM) majesticInstability: They're increasing their survival rates. They're increasing the number of people trapped without realising
(2:31:41 PM) ***Zuki nods, nods, grins.
(2:31:54 PM) spacetimeCounselor: wow okay that went over better than expected
(2:31:57 PM) spacetimeCounselor: NOW FOR EVEN CRAZIER
(2:32:16 PM) Zuki: I would like to say, though, that I'd want 'replayers are being used to patch the game' as a -theory-, rather than a fact.
(2:32:19 PM) Zuki: but I like it as a theory.
(2:32:25 PM) spacetimeCounselor: and this is probably best left as one of SC's crazy theories yeah
(2:32:30 PM) spacetimeCounselor: especially this last bit
(2:32:48 PM) Zuki: And 'institutions like Sburb.org and the dongle system are perpetuating the cycle of replaying and increasing its scope' is the sort of big awful reveal I love.
(2:33:05 PM) spacetimeCounselor: but let's say that the reason replay sburb is so infested with bugs and glitches and content that doesn't seem to have been designed by a single team, is because
(2:33:09 PM) Zuki: and have played with similar ideas but not been able to really reveal/bring-in
(2:33:16 PM) spacetimeCounselor: in actuality, all of this content was created by modders
(2:33:20 PM) spacetimeCounselor: but their mods went viral
(2:33:22 PM) Zuki: 'modders'
(2:33:23 PM) majesticInstability: Oh my god
(2:33:25 PM) spacetimeCounselor: through the update system
(2:33:27 PM) majesticInstability: We're the mod community
(2:33:45 PM) spacetimeCounselor: so you have incomplete "wouldn't this be cool" stuff like the psychoruins
(2:34:06 PM) spacetimeCounselor: or the even the underworld, etc, like ggtg's expansion pack theory
(2:34:17 PM) Zuki: My internal Ross just thought of the Minecraftforums.net 's modding boards.
(2:34:21 PM) Zuki: and recoiled in horror
(2:34:31 PM) Zuki: (Ross liked minecraft. )
(2:34:33 PM) majesticInstability: My mind went to the Sims modding community
(2:34:36 PM) spacetimeCounselor: perhaps the HS sburb was "vanilla" and replay is the result of mod after mod being added on top of that basic structure
(2:34:50 PM) majesticInstability: Not all mods work together well
(2:35:08 PM) majesticInstability: And then you get other modders trying to fix pre-existing mods and then holy /hell/ this would all fall down fast
(2:35:17 PM) Zuki: Question.
(2:35:23 PM) Zuki: *How* do you mod Sburb?
(2:35:25 PM) spacetimeCounselor: which is why sburb is such a mess of contradictory mechanics, removed/useless stats, etc
(2:35:31 PM) Zuki: from -where-?
(2:35:31 PM) spacetimeCounselor: and yeah that's why this is crazytalk see
(2:35:36 PM) Zuki: and who is doing so?
(2:35:36 PM) spacetimeCounselor: there's no mechanism in place
(2:35:49 PM) spacetimeCounselor: like, presumably it'd be frogcode, but then why doesn't everyone do it
(2:35:59 PM) spacetimeCounselor: it'd be readily available and a documented thing among replayers
(2:36:05 PM) majesticInstability: And...If this is the result of the modding community, do any of them know what they've done?
(2:36:19 PM) Zuki: ventricularPipefitter: and if you bring up 'those orange guys,' 'green carapaces,' or 'this is where session disk modders go!' I am going to reach through your dongle and punch you
(2:36:28 PM) spacetimeCounselor: probably not, as the majority of them weren't in replay sessions and just got to move on
(2:36:58 PM) spacetimeCounselor: actually that might explain why we never see them- modders ensure their own victory and don't end up in the replay cycle
(2:37:18 PM) majesticInstability: Pave the way to victory, unaware of the bodies under the steps
(2:37:43 PM) Zuki: Hmm.
(2:38:01 PM) majesticInstability: But...Yeah. This does make sense as a theory
(2:38:26 PM) spacetimeCounselor: but yeah i'd leave all this as an IDE/theory IC, since we don't want to step on toes origin-wise
(2:38:42 PM) Zuki: Heh. Can Town is kind of like taking the game's engine and making a new game
(2:38:45 PM) spacetimeCounselor: i wouldn't want to have my crazy headcanon take over as The Real Deal
(2:39:04 PM) Zuki: I think it's a -cool- headcanon. has the right mix of agency and horror
(2:39:05 PM) majesticInstability: Heh. If Ben raised it, people would argue loudly
(2:39:24 PM) majesticInstability: Oh, it works wonderfully
(2:39:49 PM) spacetimeCounselor: regardless of whether it's true, the shock of the replay community spreading itself as a virus would be really interesting to see play out with the characters
(2:39:53 PM) spacetimeCounselor: just the possibility
(2:40:04 PM) Zuki: *that* is something I want to play with.
(2:40:07 PM) majesticInstability: Pass the idea to the speedrunners. See if that divides them further
(2:40:45 PM) spacetimeCounselor: okay imma drop all this in a pastebin, have people discuss it at large later when everyone's on
(2:40:51 PM) Zuki: sure!
(2:41:09 PM) Zuki: I mean. Ross, at least, has begun to notice that replay sessions share more information than they used to, and can have linked timelines without having shared frogs.
(2:41:11 PM) majesticInstability: It's a damn good idea, dude
(2:41:13 PM) majesticInstability: Be proud
(2:42:02 PM) Zuki: Also.
(2:42:26 PM) Zuki: Does that mean that if there's a replayer from an oldstyle session, that they're bringing that legacy code/throwback genedata back around, as they replay?
(2:42:48 PM) Zuki: I get the impression 'precedence' is a fussy shaky thing.
(2:43:37 PM) Zuki: but it would be interesting if you started doing genealogies of Replay, as it were, and realized things like, 'hey, everyone who has ever encountered a Clown has played with X'
(2:43:45 PM) Zuki: 'or has played with someone who played with X'
(2:44:36 PM) Zuki: This idea's relevant to me because I"ve got an NPC sitting around on the shelf who's a native Faun.
(2:44:53 PM) majesticInstability: Hm...So to clarify one last time before I get confused
(2:45:36 PM) majesticInstability: Game data is a combination of what was already present in the code from the Game that made the given universe as well as whatever the Players import, right?
(2:47:21 PM) spacetimeCounselor: yeah, i guess
(2:47:40 PM) spacetimeCounselor: it wouldn't matter either way i think, unless...
(2:47:56 PM) majesticInstability: I'm just trying to figure out how Abel and Maria got a new aspect is all
(2:48:13 PM) spacetimeCounselor: we can probably handwave any individual instance of drift with "precedence"
(2:48:22 PM) spacetimeCounselor: that is, the game not knowing what to consider "new"
(2:48:32 PM) Zuki: Hm. Who was in Maria's second session?
(2:48:47 PM) spacetimeCounselor: and choosing either randomly or by some hidden algorithm, which is code for "whatever's convenient to the plot"
(2:49:04 PM) majesticInstability: A group of two-three sessioners
(2:49:35 PM) Zuki: Hm.
(2:49:40 PM) majesticInstability: Multiple paths for it, really
(2:49:42 PM) Zuki: 'has the code =/= 'expresses the code'
(2:50:06 PM) spacetimeCounselor: yeah
(2:50:12 PM) Zuki: Could also be:
(2:50:19 PM) Zuki: one of her first-session's guardians had it.
(2:50:19 PM) majesticInstability: Dominant and recessive genes
(2:50:36 PM) spacetimeCounselor: so we don't get into contradictions where "oh but this change came BEFORE the other one and now we CAN'T do this in the story"
(2:50:38 PM) Zuki: Could also be: Skye had met someone who had met someone who had etc, Coins.
(2:51:03 PM) Zuki: Hm. Vitt carries -old- data.
(2:51:10 PM) Zuki: He's got a lot of legacy code.
(2:51:35 PM) Zuki: (( Assuming...you basically carry it around from anyone you've played with? ))
(2:51:45 PM) Zuki: Do you keep only the most 'recent'?
(2:51:51 PM) spacetimeCounselor: yeah p much
(2:51:54 PM) Zuki: Or....yours+plus...or 'this is badly coded'
(2:51:55 PM) majesticInstability: Some of that code is damn good to have. Fawn for example seems like it's the sort of code you'd want to carry with you in case Clown ever happened
(2:52:20 PM) Zuki: ahaah VIRAL CLOWNS
(2:52:22 PM) spacetimeCounselor: i don't really want to get in the specifics of transmission since it's meant to facilitate having diversity as well as demographic change over time
(2:52:46 PM) majesticInstability: The code does Weird Stuff and we don't know why some people carry some bits and some others but it passes along all the same
(2:52:49 PM) spacetimeCounselor: like "whatever works for what you need" is how the game expresses the code
(2:52:50 PM) majesticInstability: Sort of
(2:52:51 PM) majesticInstability: We thing
(2:52:53 PM) majesticInstability: think*
(2:53:03 PM) ***Zuki nods.
(2:53:08 PM) Zuki: Hum.
(2:53:14 PM) majesticInstability: ...Okay okay the theory isn't perfect guys will the entire chat STOP HOUNDING ME NOW
(2:53:26 PM) spacetimeCounselor: it's just us two people but aight
(2:53:33 PM) Zuki: if Weiren was a Faun of Space. And Lilura played with Evan, who was a Clown...
(2:53:34 PM) Zuki: Hmn.
(2:53:47 PM) spacetimeCounselor: 'interesting things could happen'
(2:53:49 PM) majesticInstability: (( Shhh, it is fine, I am exaggerating what may happen in the IC channel ))
(2:54:26 PM) Zuki: I look forward to some variation of this getting published by Benedict.
(2:54:56 PM) spacetimeCounselor: yeah i'm def gonna make an SBI post on it
(2:55:13 PM) Zuki: Can I also say that I liked,
(2:55:15 PM) spacetimeCounselor: the tough part's gonna be figuring out how the Lotus Project discovered this
(2:55:26 PM) Zuki: "Dopplegangers OBEY THE LAWS OF PHYSICS and that is really weird."
(2:55:31 PM) spacetimeCounselor: hahaha yeah
(2:55:41 PM) majesticInstability: Might just be an idea they started kicking about that then they actually stopped and went 'Hang on, what?' about
(2:55:59 PM) majesticInstability: 'How'd they get that? We never saw those two things meet before'
(2:56:09 PM) Zuki: Well. If the game has changed over time, then understanding that mechanism would be valuable, wouldn't it?
(2:56:13 PM) majesticInstability: 'Well, I've seen this before, and you said you'd had that...Oh. /Oh/.'
(2:56:17 PM) hearthlessPontifex is now known as bobbedNonsense
(2:56:53 PM) spacetimeCounselor: yeah sc could have the idea easy- i just need to come up with test plans to give SC some sort of ground to stand on
(2:57:09 PM) spacetimeCounselor: it won't be a fun controversy if everyone just says "shut up sc you're crazy and paranoid" like usual
(2:57:26 PM) majesticInstability: I think the founders would be a good starting point
(2:57:39 PM) majesticInstability: Actually, no. Just...People in the session
(2:58:00 PM) Zuki: Hm.
(2:58:14 PM) majesticInstability: Bluh. This is complicated
(2:58:26 PM) Zuki: A lot of the stuff about aspect/class assignment has been teased out with statistics.
(2:58:47 PM) majesticInstability: Unless...Unless he deliberately envokes a small but trivial glitch with one session and goes to see if it passes on to the ones people then move on to?
(2:58:48 PM) Zuki: that's a method that's imperfect, but pretty well respected, I think, around here?
(2:59:17 PM) Zuki: I am -not sure- how to test it empirically. There's no such thing as a control group, really.
(2:59:23 PM) spacetimeCounselor: yes good, he would totally fuck with session code to make a point
(2:59:32 PM) Zuki: -wince-
(2:59:33 PM) majesticInstability: Mod consort behaviour just a touch so on occasion they say a certain thing and then see if that reproduces across sessions?
(2:59:41 PM) Zuki: fucking with session code is a thing you can do in theory
(2:59:48 PM) Zuki: it's probably considered the most /dangerous/ thing you can do.
(2:59:51 PM) majesticInstability: That's a point
(3:00:00 PM) spacetimeCounselor: just showing that a specific, small modification moved with him through his sessions would be enough to give it weight
(3:00:04 PM) majesticInstability: I can't think of any other simple way to test it that doesn't rely on self report though
(3:00:15 PM) spacetimeCounselor: and oh HELL yeah sc would do the dangerous inadvisable thing against people's protests
(3:00:15 PM) Zuki: on the other hand
(3:00:20 PM) Zuki: yes, exactly, that.
(3:00:42 PM) majesticInstability: I think get another member of Lotus to do it so he doesn't go mad with it would be safest
(3:01:18 PM) spacetimeCounselor: yeah he'd probably do the thing he did with superFrequency, sending someone back to go compile the game from frogcode
(3:01:29 PM) spacetimeCounselor: sc can't go back, he has to continue playing
(3:01:49 PM) majesticInstability: He already knows he needs to hit session 20
(3:03:00 PM) spacetimeCounselor: speaking of session 20 i'm considering making percipientMatriarch his post-scratch mom instead of his love interest
(3:03:05 PM) spacetimeCounselor: completely fuck with his head
(3:03:23 PM) majesticInstability: ...
(3:03:25 PM) majesticInstability: Do it
(3:03:31 PM) bobbedNonsense: (do it!)
(3:03:46 PM) majesticInstability: How he got a post-scratch mum? No idea! But it's funny
(3:03:57 PM) spacetimeCounselor: there's even a way for it to have happened- there was an incomplete scratch in his first session
(3:04:13 PM) spacetimeCounselor: it could have created two viable splinter realities
(3:04:26 PM) Zuki: dooo eeeeeet
(3:04:29 PM) spacetimeCounselor: or, since session 20 is a tpk, one viable reality and one doomed one
(3:04:40 PM) Zuki: oh!
(3:05:00 PM) Zuki: Ish and GA and I were talking about weird /multiple scratch results earlier
(3:05:24 PM) Zuki: what do you mean by 'incomplete scratch' for it?
(3:05:26 PM) bobbedNonsense: ( http://sync.in/scratch ?)
(3:05:31 PM) Zuki: ( mm-hm. ))
(3:05:38 PM) bobbedNonsense: (cool)
(3:06:08 PM) spacetimeCounselor: the Grace of Hope attempted to initiate a Scratch, but it didn't get scratched the whole way, instead just leaking dangerous time energy or  some shit everywhere
(3:06:09 PM) majesticInstability: An attempt was made at starting but it never 'scratched' enough to start the ascent
(3:06:39 PM) Zuki: sounds good
(3:20:38 PM) spacetimeCounselor left the room (quit: Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client).
(3:23:48 PM) majesticInstability left the room.
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