A Conversation with xsnlx about models of communication

10:41:43 AM+TheRealShawDoes election to political office automatically abdicate one's First Amendment rights?  Does an elected official not have the right to his or her beliefs?
10:42:22 AM+NoodlingGodric: And i think that's where the movements have largely changed, hence advocating for bans on hate speech (i.e. mis-educating) and attempting to at least force fair treatment even if not exactly equal.  Eventually the need for the law will relax and toelrance will just be the norm.
10:42:28 AM@BlackXanthuschoot: do you remember that Trump tried to stop them from serving in the military?
10:43:11 AM@BlackXanthuschoot: that last statement that "trans people" have a mental imbalance.. because you know, a persecuted group is more prone to suicide
10:43:25 AM@BlackXanthuschoot: but you know, you'd also have to look at what the suicide rate is in the rest of the population.
10:44:01 AM@xsnlx40% of trans people commit suicide?  I'm going to need to see a citation for that
10:44:27 AM@xsnlxdentists also have a higher than average suicide rate, must be something wrong with dentists
10:44:30 AM@BlackXanthuschoot: because they are persecuted. Do you see how that's a circular argument?
10:44:57 AM+NoodlingGodric: Absolutely, and attitudes have definitely shifted even in my lifetime, which is great.  But it's definitely not a time for complacency
10:45:31 AM+LowInformationVoterYou're debating choot.
10:45:40 AM+LowInformationVoterchoot is a known post-truther.
10:46:31 AM@BlackXanthuschoot: regret can (And does) come from the increased ostracism encountered, which *hightens* the dysmorphia
10:46:35 AM+LowInformationVoterTheRealShaw: Elected officials cannot use their office to express their 1st Amendment rights, no.
10:46:39 AM+LowInformationVoterIn private, like everybody else, sure.
10:46:52 AM+TheRealShawThe suicide attempt rate among transgender persons ranges from 32% to 50% across the countries. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/
10:47:32 AM+TheRealShawLowInformationVoter, that's not the question I asked.
10:47:59 AM+LowInformationVoterI answer your questioned, and a more general version of your question.
10:48:09 AM+LowInformationVoterInteresting for you to focus only on the second part.
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10:48:24 AM+TheRealShawLowInformationVoter, you added the bit about "use their office to express."  I said nothing about using the office to express.
10:48:28 AMⓘ Mabus set mode +v joseph
10:48:37 AM+LowInformationVoterTheRealShaw: I had two posts.
10:48:50 AM@xsnlxyou'll also note that suicide rates are FAR higher in the red states, must be something wrong with those people
10:49:09 AM+LowInformationVoterxsnlx: From the citation: "
10:49:09 AM+LowInformationVoterThe suicide attempt rate among transgender persons ranges from 32% to 50% across the countries. Gender-based victimization, discrimination, bullying, violence, being rejected by the family, friends, and community; harassment by intimate partner, family members, police and public; discrimination and ill treatment at health-care system are the major risk factors that influence the suicidal behavior among transgender persons."
10:49:32 AM+TheRealShaw[10:42:18] <+TheRealShaw> Does election to political office automatically abdicate one's First Amendment rights?  Does an elected official not have the right to his or her beliefs? <<< LowInformationVoter, that's either a yes or a no.  Either they do abdicate their First Amendment protections or they don't.  Which is it?
10:49:51 AM+LowInformationVoterAll of those causes pertain to the treatment of the individual, rather than an essential quality of transgederism.
10:49:53 AM@xsnlxlook at the map, Figure 4, suicide rate is an excellent predictor of how red a state is
10:49:58 AM+LowInformationVoterTheRealShaw: I had two posts.
10:50:13 AM+LowInformationVoterTheRealShaw: I am very close to ignoring you, as you appear to be a dishonest human being.
10:50:32 AM+LowInformationVoterYou'll note that in the era of Trumpism, there is no place for showing anything less than a pristine worship of the truth.
10:50:34 AM@xsnlxthe red states should be on some kind of suicide watch
10:50:37 AM+TheRealShawApparently providing a straightforward answer to a question is difficult, LowInformationVoter.  And, since you're now going to be an insulting asshole, I'll just ignore you.  Good riddance.
10:50:44 AM Ignoring TheRealShaw!*@*
10:50:49 AM+LowInformationVoterTheRealShaw: I put you on ignore.
10:50:53 AM+LowInformationVoterReason: You are a dishonest human being.
10:51:04 AM@xsnlxgoomba, again, exacerbated by being surrounded by a bunch of hateful assholes
10:51:23 AM Stopped ignoring goomba!*@*
10:51:25 AM@xsnlxchoot, look at Figure 4
10:51:28 AM+TheRealShawTheRealShaw [TheRealShaw!~contact@174-17-229-159.phnx.qwest.net] * Hollis Cole
10:51:28 AM+TheRealShawChannels: +#christian +#debates +#ChristianDebate
10:51:28 AM+TheRealShawConnected to server: koala.vc.au.dal.net Micron21, Australia
10:51:28 AM+TheRealShawhas identified for this nick
10:51:28 AM+TheRealShawIdle for 00:00:51, signed on 06/22/2018
10:51:45 AM@goombaxsnlx, if a person goes around calling a dog a cat, people probably would be moderately annoyed. adding sexual norms into the mix probably does make it a lot worse
10:52:08 AM@xsnlxsuicide rates in the reddest states are TWICE the rate of the bluest states
10:52:18 AM@xsnlxclearly Cons have a problem
10:52:30 AM+commieWhere?
10:52:31 AM@xsnlxnope, not ad hom
10:52:50 AM@xsnlxyou want to judge people on suicide rates, judge the Cons too
10:53:28 AM@xsnlxTheRealShaw, nice try, but liberals in red states are in short supply, so...logic fail
10:53:41 AM+LowInformationVoterxsnlx: TheRealShaw appears to be a highly dishonest person.
10:54:10 AM@xsnlxLIV, thanks for the tip
10:54:42 AM+LowInformationVoterRemember, he provided that citation.
10:55:08 AM+LowInformationVoterAnd that citation indicates the major causes are all responses to transgenderism.
10:55:46 AM+LowInformationVoterxsnlx: I want to focus on something TheRealShaw and I shared about our minds a moment ago.
10:55:47 AM+commieDunno why categories are so important to impose.
10:55:54 AM+LowInformationVoterGiven some of your knowledge of people.
10:56:10 AM+LowInformationVoterHe and I were having some interaction, right. And I shared a perception of mine. "you appear to be a dishonest person"
10:56:25 AM@xsnlxLIV, ad homs aren't productive
10:56:33 AM+LowInformationVoterI shared that because I was close to ending the conversation, but I wanted to give them a chance to know where I was at.
10:56:39 AM+LowInformationVoterxsnlx: What was my ad hominem?
10:56:48 AM@xsnlxLIV, very generous of you, but ad homs are not productive
10:56:55 AM+LowInformationVoterxsnlx: What was my ad hominem?
10:57:05 AM+LowInformationVoterI didn't make any arguments to the man.
10:57:15 AM@xsnlxLIV, addressing your comment to the person, not his argument
10:57:47 AM@xsnlxIE, "your argument is fallacious" as opposed to "you're a lying asshole"
10:57:50 AM+LowInformationVoterxsnlx: There are at least two things going on whenever humans talk in an Enlightenment/scientific framework:
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10:58:06 AM+LowInformationVoter1 - An evidence-based discussion guided by rules of logic
10:58:12 AM+LowInformationVoter2 - An emotional experience for the two human beings
10:58:23 AM@xsnlxHedrin, authoritarian nationalist populist
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10:58:48 AM+LowInformationVoterxsnlx: Say that we never allowed (2) under any circumstances
10:58:59 AM+LowInformationVoterWhat would my interaction with TheRealShaw have looked like?
10:59:08 AM+LowInformationVoterSome discussion in (1), and then my ignoring them without any communication why
10:59:24 AM+LowInformationVoter(1) would just stop, and there would be no clear reason why. Participants and observers could try and guess why, though
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10:59:37 AM+LowInformationVoterI was at the point of no being able to perform (1) due to a perception in (2)
10:59:49 AM+LowInformationVoterI made my chat partner aware of my perception, specifically using the qualifier "appear"
10:59:58 AM+LowInformationVoterThis indicates I was not asserting a reality, only a perception
11:00:24 AM+LowInformationVoterWhat does excellence in (2) look like? It does not interpret the communication as a threat, but a clear communication of a problem. The two people can then attempt to resolve that problem, in at least some cases
11:00:30 AM+LowInformationVoterAnd what did TheRealShaw do, though
11:00:45 AM+LowInformationVoterDid they attempt to solve that problem? Did they attempt to share a perception of their own?
11:00:53 AM+LowInformationVoterNo, they asserted a reality: "you're an asshole"
11:01:06 AM+LowInformationVoterAre there objective qualities to "dishonest"? Yes.
11:01:13 AM+LowInformationVoterAre there objective qualities to "asshole"? No.
11:01:19 AM+LowInformationVoterIt's a social condemnation word
11:01:28 AM+LowInformationVoterThis reveals an incredible amount about the way TheRealShaw resolves tension and conflict
11:01:31 AM× You have been kicked by Godric (Godric)
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11:01:52 AMLowInformationVoterI think it reveals that it not possible to do meaningful work in (2) with him
11:01:52 AM== Cannot send to channel
11:01:57 AMⓘ Mabus set mode +v LowInformationVoter
11:01:59 AM+LowInformationVoterI think it reveals that it not possible to do meaningful work in (2) with him
11:02:03 AM@xsnlxLIV, 1. I think you may be overestimating the degree of interest in any given IRC conversation, and that one in particular, 2. if you're at the point of ignoring someone, you A. posting that fact is an act of ego, B. shouldn't be overly concerned with anything that have to say after that point since you're willfully ignoring them, 3. you're still free to post whatever you want in the channel
11:02:09 AM+LowInformationVoterI wanted to share this analysis with you as a method of accountability
11:02:59 AM+LowInformationVoterxsnlx: Your (1) seems like a not particularly relevant excuse
11:03:07 AM+LowInformationVoterWe're responsible for the things we do, and the things we do reveal part of who we are
11:03:28 AM+LowInformationVoterIn this case, both people were interested enough to have some discussion in part 1 of my model, and part 2 of my model
11:03:48 AM+LowInformationVoter2 has a lot of problems, honestly
11:03:57 AM+LowInformationVoter1 - It's not ego you mean, but id in Freud's model
11:04:10 AM+LowInformationVoter2 - Freud's psychology, and depth psychology in general, are not scientific models
11:04:36 AM+LowInformationVoterA sharing of one's mental state -- when one's mental state is affecting their interaction with others -- seems like a very useful thing
11:04:46 AM+LowInformationVoterOtherwise, we have effects between people we can't be sure of
11:04:53 AM+NoodlingHedrin: Do you mean the cynical ones who were bleating about that in response to BLM, or the actual view that all lives matter (without excluding the idea that some lives clearly need to be drawn to the attention of leaders and influencers more than others)?
11:04:57 AM@xsnlxLIV, no one can be forced to be accountable within the constraints of an IRC channel, this channel has at least its share of completely reprehensible individuals, we'll all just have to do our best with what we have
11:05:18 AM+LowInformationVoterxsnlx: That, again, is a strange post
11:05:26 AM+LowInformationVoterIt seems to be a straw man falalcy
11:05:29 AM@xsnlxfocus on your integrity, not the integrity of others
11:05:37 AM+LowInformationVoterxsnlx: I have already subsumed this point
11:05:53 AM@xsnlxok, Merry Friday
11:05:56 AM+LowInformationVoterNobody has discussed at any point, other than you in that post just now, about forcing anybody to do anything
11:06:00 AM+LowInformationVoterIf you disagree, please quote me
11:06:12 AM+LowInformationVoterThen, you said "focus on your integrity, not the integrity of others"
11:06:15 AM+NoodlingHedrin: Yes as in the first or the second?
11:06:26 AM+LowInformationVoterI have already posted the following: "11:03:07 AM+LowInformationVoterWe're responsible for the things we do, and the things we do reveal part of who we are"
11:06:31 AM+Noodling[Shoey]: Hi, how's life?
11:06:52 AM+LowInformationVoterSecond, I disagree with the second part. Accountability, along with self-integrity, is a core value
11:07:12 AM+LowInformationVoterDo you think accountability for others is a core value in human interaction, xsnlx?
11:07:13 AM@xsnlxLIV, then stop worrying about what other people did in the channel.  accept, adapt and move on
11:07:22 AM+LowInformationVoterxsnlx: That doesn't follow from my posts
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11:07:45 AM+LowInformationVoterYou posted it before you had a chance to read my post right before it
11:07:45 AMⓘ Mabus set mode +v Jape`
11:07:53 AM@xsnlxLIV, then why are you asking about "accountability for others"?
11:08:00 AM+LowInformationVoterI already answered that question
11:08:08 AM+LowInformationVoterSecond, I disagree with the second part. Accountability, along with self-integrity, is a core value
11:08:18 AM+LowInformationVoterDo you think accountability for others is a core value in human interaction, xsnlx?
11:08:29 AM@xsnlxthere is no accountability for others
11:08:40 AM+LowInformationVoterThat is an answer to a different question
11:08:44 AM+LowInformationVoterPlus it seems obviously false
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11:09:04 AM+LowInformationVoterxsnlx: There are no gods. However, belief in gods is a very big causal factor in human affairs
11:09:04 AM+NoodlingWoohoo!  Weekend!
11:09:05 AM+LowInformationVoterAgreed?
11:09:31 AM+LowInformationVoterSecond, accountability has roots in our intuition, indicating it's an evolved adaptation
11:09:44 AM+LowInformationVoterYou said "there is no accountability for others", which is obviously false
11:09:53 AM+LowInformationVoterWhat kinds of accountability for others is there, then?
11:10:35 AM+LowInformationVoterReputation effects in pre-civilization, and reputation effects and systems based responses in civilization, e.g. legal responses and credit score
11:10:57 AM+LowInformationVoterIn fact, reciprocity is one of *the* core values of human moral reasoning, according to the work of Jonathan Haidt
11:11:14 AM+LowInformationVoterhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_foundations_theory
11:11:27 AM+LowInformationVoter"Fairness or proportionality: rendering justice according to shared rules; opposite of cheating"
11:11:36 AM@xsnlxHedrin, it's like an extortion daisy-chain
11:11:45 AM@xsnlxTrumputin
11:11:53 AM+LowInformationVoterxsnlx: What is your perception of our dialogue so far, in regards to a debate framework
11:12:06 AM@goombamelania is stronk
11:12:09 AM+LowInformationVoterI have had a few conversation like these with you. My perception, in a debate framework, is that you're getting crushed
11:12:11 AM@goombafrom old country
11:12:14 AM+LowInformationVoterHowever, it doesn't seem you have this perception
11:12:17 AM@goombano shit taken in old country
11:12:46 AM+LowInformationVoterI am able to subsume contradict almost all of your claims using evidence. However, your beliefs appear unmodified
11:12:47 AM@xsnlxLIV, I rejoice in your magnificence
11:13:10 AM+LowInformationVoterxsnlx: Your emotional state, (2) in my model, has caused you to violate (1)
11:13:23 AM+LowInformationVoterDid you want to talk about that, or just express yourself from (2) while denying (2)'s existence?
11:13:41 AM+LowInformationVoterHere's what I don't get
11:13:52 AM+LowInformationVoterI'm literally doing exclusively (1) in my model, which is what you wanted me to do, earlier
11:13:59 AM+LowInformationVoterAnd in (1), you're being defeated handily
11:14:05 AM+LowInformationVoterBut this is causing you to get angry and perform in (2)
11:14:13 AM+LowInformationVoterWhich you deny exists
11:14:23 AM+LowInformationVoterAnd, as a result of your loss in (1), you are not modifying any of your beliefs
11:15:24 AM+LowInformationVoterxsnlx: Here are my parting thoughts
11:15:41 AM+LowInformationVoterI have a perception you are not adept at expressing your emotions when you're frustrated/annoyed
11:15:49 AM+LowInformationVoterHowever, you will act your frustration/annoyance
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11:16:04 AM@xsnlxLIV, your interest in this conversation appears to be driven by ego investment in either my actions or your desired outcome of the conversation
11:16:26 AM+LowInformationVoterWhat should I do, then, to handle that with excellence? I should take on a counselor role where I don't criticize your expressions, perhaps walk away, and allow you to calm down so you can once more express yourself skillfully
11:16:45 AM@xsnlxLIV, detach from the outcome, be water
11:16:52 AM+LowInformationVoterxsnlx: Your previous post was already refuted
11:16:52 AM@xsnlxbe present
11:16:59 AM+LowInformationVoterRepetition of refuted claims is a post-truth behavior
11:17:09 AM+LowInformationVoterYou're not a post-truther when you're calm, but you are when you're emotional
11:17:31 AM+LowInformationVoterxsnlx: Here is what I would like you to think about
11:17:50 AM+LowInformationVoterMe needing to walk away and let you calm down so you can discuss these topics more skillfully is both fine, and a form of placation
11:18:01 AM+LowInformationVoterIt's fine, in that most people need that from time to time, including myself
11:18:09 AM+LowInformationVoterIt's okay to feel strong emotions and have them distort our minds
11:18:21 AM+LowInformationVoterSo, forgive yourself for that, as I will work on forgiving myself and others for that, too
11:18:52 AM+LowInformationVoterBut, upon reflection, if you find you have a pattern in that space, and others have to give you space rather than diving into those emotions, I would recommend seeing that as a form of weakness or unskillfulness to overcome/improve
11:18:53 AM* xsnlx forgives himself
11:19:03 AM+LowInformationVoterThose are my thoughts
11:19:09 AM+LowInformationVoterMy guess is they're not very useful to you right now
11:19:12 AM Ignoring xsnlx!*@*
11:19:25 AM+LowInformationVoterThank you for your time, xsnlx. Until next time