10:41:43 AM+TheRealShawDoes election to political office automatically abdicate one's First Amendment rights?  Does an elected official not have the right to his or her beliefs? 
10:42:22 AM+NoodlingGodric: And i think that's where the movements have largely changed, hence advocating for bans on hate speech (i.e. mis-educating) and attempting to at least force fair treatment even if not exactly equal.  Eventually the need for the law will relax and toelrance will just be the norm. 
10:42:28 AM@BlackXanthuschoot: do you remember that Trump tried to stop them from serving in the military? 
10:43:11 AM@BlackXanthuschoot: that last statement that "trans people" have a mental imbalance.. because you know, a persecuted group is more prone to suicide 
10:43:25 AM@BlackXanthuschoot: but you know, you'd also have to look at what the suicide rate is in the rest of the population. 
10:44:01 AM@xsnlx40% of trans people commit suicide?  I'm going to need to see a citation for that 
10:44:27 AM@xsnlxdentists also have a higher than average suicide rate, must be something wrong with dentists 
10:44:30 AM@BlackXanthuschoot: because they are persecuted. Do you see how that's a circular argument? 
10:44:57 AM+NoodlingGodric: Absolutely, and attitudes have definitely shifted even in my lifetime, which is great.  But it's definitely not a time for complacency 
10:45:31 AM+LowInformationVoterYou're debating choot. 
10:45:40 AM+LowInformationVoterchoot is a known post-truther. 
10:46:31 AM@BlackXanthuschoot: regret can (And does) come from the increased ostracism encountered, which *hightens* the dysmorphia 
10:46:35 AM+LowInformationVoterTheRealShaw: Elected officials cannot use their office to express their 1st Amendment rights, no. 
10:46:39 AM+LowInformationVoterIn private, like everybody else, sure. 
10:46:52 AM+TheRealShawThe suicide attempt rate among transgender persons ranges from 32% to 50% across the countries. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/ 
10:47:32 AM+TheRealShawLowInformationVoter, that's not the question I asked. 
10:47:59 AM+LowInformationVoterI answer your questioned, and a more general version of your question. 
10:48:09 AM+LowInformationVoterInteresting for you to focus only on the second part. 
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10:48:24 AM+TheRealShawLowInformationVoter, you added the bit about "use their office to express."  I said nothing about using the office to express. 
10:48:28 AMⓘ Mabus set mode +v joseph 
10:48:37 AM+LowInformationVoterTheRealShaw: I had two posts. 
10:48:50 AM@xsnlxyou'll also note that suicide rates are FAR higher in the red states, must be something wrong with those people 
10:49:09 AM+LowInformationVoterxsnlx: From the citation: " 
10:49:09 AM+LowInformationVoterThe suicide attempt rate among transgender persons ranges from 32% to 50% across the countries. Gender-based victimization, discrimination, bullying, violence, being rejected by the family, friends, and community; harassment by intimate partner, family members, police and public; discrimination and ill treatment at health-care system are the major risk factors that influence the suicidal behavior among transgender persons." 
10:49:32 AM+TheRealShaw[10:42:18] <+TheRealShaw> Does election to political office automatically abdicate one's First Amendment rights?  Does an elected official not have the right to his or her beliefs? <<< LowInformationVoter, that's either a yes or a no.  Either they do abdicate their First Amendment protections or they don't.  Which is it? 
10:49:51 AM+LowInformationVoterAll of those causes pertain to the treatment of the individual, rather than an essential quality of transgederism. 
10:49:53 AM@xsnlxlook at the map, Figure 4, suicide rate is an excellent predictor of how red a state is 
10:49:58 AM+LowInformationVoterTheRealShaw: I had two posts. 
10:50:13 AM+LowInformationVoterTheRealShaw: I am very close to ignoring you, as you appear to be a dishonest human being. 
10:50:32 AM+LowInformationVoterYou'll note that in the era of Trumpism, there is no place for showing anything less than a pristine worship of the truth. 
10:50:34 AM@xsnlxthe red states should be on some kind of suicide watch 
10:50:37 AM+TheRealShawApparently providing a straightforward answer to a question is difficult, LowInformationVoter.  And, since you're now going to be an insulting asshole, I'll just ignore you.  Good riddance. 
10:50:44 AM Ignoring TheRealShaw!*@* 
10:50:49 AM+LowInformationVoterTheRealShaw: I put you on ignore. 
10:50:53 AM+LowInformationVoterReason: You are a dishonest human being. 
10:51:04 AM@xsnlxgoomba, again, exacerbated by being surrounded by a bunch of hateful assholes 
10:51:23 AM Stopped ignoring goomba!*@* 
10:51:25 AM@xsnlxchoot, look at Figure 4 
10:51:28 AM+TheRealShawTheRealShaw [TheRealShaw!~contact@174-17-229-159.phnx.qwest.net] * Hollis Cole 
10:51:28 AM+TheRealShawChannels: +#christian +#debates +#ChristianDebate 
10:51:28 AM+TheRealShawConnected to server: koala.vc.au.dal.net Micron21, Australia 
10:51:28 AM+TheRealShawhas identified for this nick 
10:51:28 AM+TheRealShawIdle for 00:00:51, signed on 06/22/2018 
10:51:45 AM@goombaxsnlx, if a person goes around calling a dog a cat, people probably would be moderately annoyed. adding sexual norms into the mix probably does make it a lot worse 
10:52:08 AM@xsnlxsuicide rates in the reddest states are TWICE the rate of the bluest states 
10:52:18 AM@xsnlxclearly Cons have a problem 
10:52:30 AM+commieWhere? 
10:52:31 AM@xsnlxnope, not ad hom 
10:52:50 AM@xsnlxyou want to judge people on suicide rates, judge the Cons too 
10:53:28 AM@xsnlxTheRealShaw, nice try, but liberals in red states are in short supply, so...logic fail 
10:53:41 AM+LowInformationVoterxsnlx: TheRealShaw appears to be a highly dishonest person. 
10:54:10 AM@xsnlxLIV, thanks for the tip 
10:54:42 AM+LowInformationVoterRemember, he provided that citation. 
10:55:08 AM+LowInformationVoterAnd that citation indicates the major causes are all responses to transgenderism. 
10:55:46 AM+LowInformationVoterxsnlx: I want to focus on something TheRealShaw and I shared about our minds a moment ago. 
10:55:47 AM+commieDunno why categories are so important to impose. 
10:55:54 AM+LowInformationVoterGiven some of your knowledge of people. 
10:56:10 AM+LowInformationVoterHe and I were having some interaction, right. And I shared a perception of mine. "you appear to be a dishonest person" 
10:56:25 AM@xsnlxLIV, ad homs aren't productive 
10:56:33 AM+LowInformationVoterI shared that because I was close to ending the conversation, but I wanted to give them a chance to know where I was at. 
10:56:39 AM+LowInformationVoterxsnlx: What was my ad hominem? 
10:56:48 AM@xsnlxLIV, very generous of you, but ad homs are not productive 
10:56:55 AM+LowInformationVoterxsnlx: What was my ad hominem? 
10:57:05 AM+LowInformationVoterI didn't make any arguments to the man. 
10:57:15 AM@xsnlxLIV, addressing your comment to the person, not his argument 
10:57:47 AM@xsnlxIE, "your argument is fallacious" as opposed to "you're a lying asshole" 
10:57:50 AM+LowInformationVoterxsnlx: There are at least two things going on whenever humans talk in an Enlightenment/scientific framework: 
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10:58:02 AMⓘ ChanServ set mode +o Infradead 
10:58:06 AM+LowInformationVoter1 - An evidence-based discussion guided by rules of logic 
10:58:12 AM+LowInformationVoter2 - An emotional experience for the two human beings 
10:58:23 AM@xsnlxHedrin, authoritarian nationalist populist 
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10:58:48 AM+LowInformationVoterxsnlx: Say that we never allowed (2) under any circumstances 
10:58:59 AM+LowInformationVoterWhat would my interaction with TheRealShaw have looked like? 
10:59:08 AM+LowInformationVoterSome discussion in (1), and then my ignoring them without any communication why 
10:59:24 AM+LowInformationVoter(1) would just stop, and there would be no clear reason why. Participants and observers could try and guess why, though 
10:59:30 AMⓘ Infradead is now known as ProfFarnsworth 
10:59:37 AM+LowInformationVoterI was at the point of no being able to perform (1) due to a perception in (2) 
10:59:49 AM+LowInformationVoterI made my chat partner aware of my perception, specifically using the qualifier "appear" 
10:59:58 AM+LowInformationVoterThis indicates I was not asserting a reality, only a perception 
11:00:24 AM+LowInformationVoterWhat does excellence in (2) look like? It does not interpret the communication as a threat, but a clear communication of a problem. The two people can then attempt to resolve that problem, in at least some cases 
11:00:30 AM+LowInformationVoterAnd what did TheRealShaw do, though 
11:00:45 AM+LowInformationVoterDid they attempt to solve that problem? Did they attempt to share a perception of their own? 
11:00:53 AM+LowInformationVoterNo, they asserted a reality: "you're an asshole" 
11:01:06 AM+LowInformationVoterAre there objective qualities to "dishonest"? Yes. 
11:01:13 AM+LowInformationVoterAre there objective qualities to "asshole"? No. 
11:01:19 AM+LowInformationVoterIt's a social condemnation word 
11:01:28 AM+LowInformationVoterThis reveals an incredible amount about the way TheRealShaw resolves tension and conflict 
11:01:31 AM× You have been kicked by Godric (Godric) 
11:01:49 AM→ LowInformationVoter has joined 
11:01:52 AMLowInformationVoterI think it reveals that it not possible to do meaningful work in (2) with him 
11:01:52 AM== Cannot send to channel 
11:01:57 AMⓘ Mabus set mode +v LowInformationVoter 
11:01:59 AM+LowInformationVoterI think it reveals that it not possible to do meaningful work in (2) with him 
11:02:03 AM@xsnlxLIV, 1. I think you may be overestimating the degree of interest in any given IRC conversation, and that one in particular, 2. if you're at the point of ignoring someone, you A. posting that fact is an act of ego, B. shouldn't be overly concerned with anything that have to say after that point since you're willfully ignoring them, 3. you're still free to post whatever you want in the channel 
11:02:09 AM+LowInformationVoterI wanted to share this analysis with you as a method of accountability 
11:02:59 AM+LowInformationVoterxsnlx: Your (1) seems like a not particularly relevant excuse 
11:03:07 AM+LowInformationVoterWe're responsible for the things we do, and the things we do reveal part of who we are 
11:03:28 AM+LowInformationVoterIn this case, both people were interested enough to have some discussion in part 1 of my model, and part 2 of my model 
11:03:48 AM+LowInformationVoter2 has a lot of problems, honestly 
11:03:57 AM+LowInformationVoter1 - It's not ego you mean, but id in Freud's model 
11:04:10 AM+LowInformationVoter2 - Freud's psychology, and depth psychology in general, are not scientific models 
11:04:36 AM+LowInformationVoterA sharing of one's mental state -- when one's mental state is affecting their interaction with others -- seems like a very useful thing 
11:04:46 AM+LowInformationVoterOtherwise, we have effects between people we can't be sure of 
11:04:53 AM+NoodlingHedrin: Do you mean the cynical ones who were bleating about that in response to BLM, or the actual view that all lives matter (without excluding the idea that some lives clearly need to be drawn to the attention of leaders and influencers more than others)? 
11:04:57 AM@xsnlxLIV, no one can be forced to be accountable within the constraints of an IRC channel, this channel has at least its share of completely reprehensible individuals, we'll all just have to do our best with what we have 
11:05:18 AM+LowInformationVoterxsnlx: That, again, is a strange post 
11:05:26 AM+LowInformationVoterIt seems to be a straw man falalcy 
11:05:29 AM@xsnlxfocus on your integrity, not the integrity of others 
11:05:37 AM+LowInformationVoterxsnlx: I have already subsumed this point 
11:05:53 AM@xsnlxok, Merry Friday 
11:05:56 AM+LowInformationVoterNobody has discussed at any point, other than you in that post just now, about forcing anybody to do anything 
11:06:00 AM+LowInformationVoterIf you disagree, please quote me 
11:06:12 AM+LowInformationVoterThen, you said "focus on your integrity, not the integrity of others" 
11:06:15 AM+NoodlingHedrin: Yes as in the first or the second? 
11:06:26 AM+LowInformationVoterI have already posted the following: "11:03:07 AM+LowInformationVoterWe're responsible for the things we do, and the things we do reveal part of who we are" 
11:06:31 AM+Noodling[Shoey]: Hi, how's life? 
11:06:52 AM+LowInformationVoterSecond, I disagree with the second part. Accountability, along with self-integrity, is a core value 
11:07:12 AM+LowInformationVoterDo you think accountability for others is a core value in human interaction, xsnlx? 
11:07:13 AM@xsnlxLIV, then stop worrying about what other people did in the channel.  accept, adapt and move on 
11:07:22 AM+LowInformationVoterxsnlx: That doesn't follow from my posts 
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11:07:45 AM+LowInformationVoterYou posted it before you had a chance to read my post right before it 
11:07:45 AMⓘ Mabus set mode +v Jape` 
11:07:53 AM@xsnlxLIV, then why are you asking about "accountability for others"? 
11:08:00 AM+LowInformationVoterI already answered that question 
11:08:08 AM+LowInformationVoterSecond, I disagree with the second part. Accountability, along with self-integrity, is a core value 
11:08:18 AM+LowInformationVoterDo you think accountability for others is a core value in human interaction, xsnlx? 
11:08:29 AM@xsnlxthere is no accountability for others 
11:08:40 AM+LowInformationVoterThat is an answer to a different question 
11:08:44 AM+LowInformationVoterPlus it seems obviously false 
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11:09:04 AM+LowInformationVoterxsnlx: There are no gods. However, belief in gods is a very big causal factor in human affairs 
11:09:04 AM+NoodlingWoohoo!  Weekend! 
11:09:05 AM+LowInformationVoterAgreed? 
11:09:31 AM+LowInformationVoterSecond, accountability has roots in our intuition, indicating it's an evolved adaptation 
11:09:44 AM+LowInformationVoterYou said "there is no accountability for others", which is obviously false 
11:09:53 AM+LowInformationVoterWhat kinds of accountability for others is there, then? 
11:10:35 AM+LowInformationVoterReputation effects in pre-civilization, and reputation effects and systems based responses in civilization, e.g. legal responses and credit score 
11:10:57 AM+LowInformationVoterIn fact, reciprocity is one of *the* core values of human moral reasoning, according to the work of Jonathan Haidt 
11:11:14 AM+LowInformationVoterhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_foundations_theory 
11:11:27 AM+LowInformationVoter"Fairness or proportionality: rendering justice according to shared rules; opposite of cheating" 
11:11:36 AM@xsnlxHedrin, it's like an extortion daisy-chain 
11:11:45 AM@xsnlxTrumputin 
11:11:53 AM+LowInformationVoterxsnlx: What is your perception of our dialogue so far, in regards to a debate framework 
11:12:06 AM@goombamelania is stronk 
11:12:09 AM+LowInformationVoterI have had a few conversation like these with you. My perception, in a debate framework, is that you're getting crushed 
11:12:11 AM@goombafrom old country 
11:12:14 AM+LowInformationVoterHowever, it doesn't seem you have this perception 
11:12:17 AM@goombano shit taken in old country 
11:12:46 AM+LowInformationVoterI am able to subsume contradict almost all of your claims using evidence. However, your beliefs appear unmodified 
11:12:47 AM@xsnlxLIV, I rejoice in your magnificence 
11:13:10 AM+LowInformationVoterxsnlx: Your emotional state, (2) in my model, has caused you to violate (1) 
11:13:23 AM+LowInformationVoterDid you want to talk about that, or just express yourself from (2) while denying (2)'s existence? 
11:13:41 AM+LowInformationVoterHere's what I don't get 
11:13:52 AM+LowInformationVoterI'm literally doing exclusively (1) in my model, which is what you wanted me to do, earlier 
11:13:59 AM+LowInformationVoterAnd in (1), you're being defeated handily 
11:14:05 AM+LowInformationVoterBut this is causing you to get angry and perform in (2) 
11:14:13 AM+LowInformationVoterWhich you deny exists 
11:14:23 AM+LowInformationVoterAnd, as a result of your loss in (1), you are not modifying any of your beliefs 
11:15:24 AM+LowInformationVoterxsnlx: Here are my parting thoughts 
11:15:41 AM+LowInformationVoterI have a perception you are not adept at expressing your emotions when you're frustrated/annoyed 
11:15:49 AM+LowInformationVoterHowever, you will act your frustration/annoyance 
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11:16:04 AM@xsnlxLIV, your interest in this conversation appears to be driven by ego investment in either my actions or your desired outcome of the conversation 
11:16:26 AM+LowInformationVoterWhat should I do, then, to handle that with excellence? I should take on a counselor role where I don't criticize your expressions, perhaps walk away, and allow you to calm down so you can once more express yourself skillfully 
11:16:45 AM@xsnlxLIV, detach from the outcome, be water 
11:16:52 AM+LowInformationVoterxsnlx: Your previous post was already refuted 
11:16:52 AM@xsnlxbe present 
11:16:59 AM+LowInformationVoterRepetition of refuted claims is a post-truth behavior 
11:17:09 AM+LowInformationVoterYou're not a post-truther when you're calm, but you are when you're emotional 
11:17:31 AM+LowInformationVoterxsnlx: Here is what I would like you to think about 
11:17:50 AM+LowInformationVoterMe needing to walk away and let you calm down so you can discuss these topics more skillfully is both fine, and a form of placation 
11:18:01 AM+LowInformationVoterIt's fine, in that most people need that from time to time, including myself 
11:18:09 AM+LowInformationVoterIt's okay to feel strong emotions and have them distort our minds 
11:18:21 AM+LowInformationVoterSo, forgive yourself for that, as I will work on forgiving myself and others for that, too 
11:18:52 AM+LowInformationVoterBut, upon reflection, if you find you have a pattern in that space, and others have to give you space rather than diving into those emotions, I would recommend seeing that as a form of weakness or unskillfulness to overcome/improve 
11:18:53 AM* xsnlx forgives himself 
11:19:03 AM+LowInformationVoterThose are my thoughts 
11:19:09 AM+LowInformationVoterMy guess is they're not very useful to you right now 
11:19:12 AM Ignoring xsnlx!*@* 
11:19:25 AM+LowInformationVoterThank you for your time, xsnlx. Until next time