[redacted]

[15-May-20 02:25 AM] Serene Grace#5243
lets suspect sun now and we can have the results of it before week 7 or playoffs whichever the timeline fits
We can vote on
Suspect Bulbasaur
Suspect Heat Rock

[15-May-20 02:25 AM] Serene Grace#5243
or if its a pr decision we can just do whatever they say

[18-May-20 12:41 AM] Luthier#1578
can we start talking about this please, sun is getting absolutely out of hand

[18-May-20 12:42 AM] Luthier#1578
u can see by the absurd power it has as a matchup fish if u look at like every other game from last week in lcpl

[18-May-20 12:42 AM] Luthier#1578
ive been trying to push for us to talk about it but like only 4 of us have been actively addressing the issue

[18-May-20 12:46 AM] Luthier#1578
well anyways i might be gone when anyone responds to this but I think there are 2 things we can suspect if we're going for the sun suspect

[18-May-20 12:46 AM] Luthier#1578
and i personally think that both should go

[18-May-20 12:47 AM] Luthier#1578
but why is sun busted? powerful stab, growth boosting, super speed, and weather boosts fire types

[18-May-20 12:47 AM] Luthier#1578
we have 2 ways of shutting this down

[18-May-20 12:47 AM] Luthier#1578
i personally think that the 2 things we need to suspect are heat rock and chlorophyll and personally i think it would be efficient to suspect both at the same time

[18-May-20 12:48 AM] Luthier#1578
and yes there is precedent to do so, as UU has suspected multiple mons at the same time in the past

[18-May-20 12:48 AM] Luthier#1578
@Council please update this chat with your thoughts

[18-May-20 12:53 AM] starmaster#8286

{Attachments}
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/231290339128770560/711803737408012339/Screen_Shot_2020-05-18_at_12.53.51_AM.png

[18-May-20 12:54 AM] starmaster#8286
:messi:

[18-May-20 12:54 AM] starmaster#8286
but yeah heat rock or chloro should def be tested

[18-May-20 12:54 AM] Luthier#1578
yea thank you

[18-May-20 12:54 AM] Luthier#1578
i think everyone sees taht there is a problem

[18-May-20 12:54 AM] Luthier#1578
but nobody is moving anything at all

[18-May-20 12:54 AM] Luthier#1578
and the longer we dont do anything

[18-May-20 12:55 AM] Luthier#1578
the more stupid LCPL weeks are LOL

[18-May-20 12:56 AM] Kingler#6931
Sure I'm not 100% on it but Idm suspecting

[18-May-20 12:56 AM] Luthier#1578
star and kingler

[18-May-20 12:56 AM] Luthier#1578
chlorophyll heat rock

[18-May-20 12:56 AM] Luthier#1578
or both

[18-May-20 12:57 AM] Luthier#1578
also council vote

[18-May-20 12:57 AM] starmaster#8286
its def not gonna be a council vote

[18-May-20 12:57 AM] Luthier#1578
ya im just saying

[18-May-20 12:57 AM] starmaster#8286
and it should def be one or the other

[18-May-20 12:58 AM] Luthier#1578
vote on what u needs to be suspected

[18-May-20 12:58 AM] starmaster#8286
idt both rly makes sense

[18-May-20 12:58 AM] Luthier#1578
ok

[18-May-20 12:58 AM] Luthier#1578
i just

[18-May-20 12:58 AM] Luthier#1578
need to create discussion

[18-May-20 12:58 AM] Luthier#1578
lol

[18-May-20 12:59 AM] starmaster#8286
but yeah ive felt chloro was the cleanest solution since literally december

[18-May-20 12:59 AM] starmaster#8286
so id be down for that lol..

[18-May-20 12:59 AM] Luthier#1578
ya

[18-May-20 12:59 AM] Luthier#1578
chloro would actually be

[18-May-20 12:59 AM] Luthier#1578
like

[18-May-20 12:59 AM] Luthier#1578
by FAR

[18-May-20 12:59 AM] Luthier#1578
the cleanest solution

[18-May-20 12:59 AM] Luthier#1578
charmander isnt as much of a problem as bulb/cherubi

[18-May-20 12:59 AM] starmaster#8286
ya and we could free pix

[18-May-20 12:59 AM] Luthier#1578
cuz it gets chipped so easily

[18-May-20 12:59 AM] Luthier#1578
sure

[18-May-20 01:00 AM] levi#6206
what abt pix pony

[18-May-20 01:00 AM] levi#6206
could tht be broken

[18-May-20 01:00 AM] Luthier#1578
i mean i still think

[18-May-20 01:00 AM] starmaster#8286
bro why would this ever be broken

[18-May-20 01:00 AM] Luthier#1578
lmfao

[18-May-20 01:00 AM] Luthier#1578
its actually pretty good star

[18-May-20 01:00 AM] Luthier#1578
if u run physical attacking pony

[18-May-20 01:00 AM] Luthier#1578
ohkos everything in sun

[18-May-20 01:00 AM] Luthier#1578
other than mareanie

[18-May-20 01:00 AM] levi#6206
its like charmander but fast and bulky

[18-May-20 01:00 AM] starmaster#8286
and not as strong

[18-May-20 01:00 AM] levi#6206
powerhouse

[18-May-20 01:00 AM] Luthier#1578
ya its not as strong but

[18-May-20 01:00 AM] Luthier#1578
if heat rock is there

[18-May-20 01:01 AM] Luthier#1578
u get to change up moves

[18-May-20 01:01 AM] Luthier#1578
and abuse

[18-May-20 01:01 AM] Luthier#1578
cuz it gets solar blade

[18-May-20 01:01 AM] Luthier#1578
for onix and w/e

[18-May-20 01:01 AM] Luthier#1578
personally i dont think

[18-May-20 01:01 AM] Luthier#1578
that the reason sun is busted is cuz of pony

[18-May-20 01:01 AM] starmaster#8286
its def gonna be viable

[18-May-20 01:01 AM] Luthier#1578
lol

[18-May-20 01:01 AM] starmaster#8286
but

[18-May-20 01:01 AM] starmaster#8286
i cant see that breaking the tier

[18-May-20 01:01 AM] starmaster#8286
ever

[18-May-20 01:01 AM] Luthier#1578
i dont think its

[18-May-20 01:01 AM] Luthier#1578
even close

[18-May-20 01:01 AM] Luthier#1578
to the problem of sun rn

[18-May-20 01:01 AM] Luthier#1578
cherubi bulb

[18-May-20 01:01 AM] Luthier#1578
is absolutely absurd

[18-May-20 01:07 AM] Ninja#8225
id like to ban

[18-May-20 01:07 AM] Ninja#8225
heat rock

[18-May-20 01:07 AM] Ninja#8225
with no heat rock the non sun player just has to get 1 predict right pretty much

[18-May-20 01:07 AM] Ninja#8225
and you cant do anything w the sun turns

[18-May-20 01:08 AM] Luthier#1578
ok

[18-May-20 01:08 AM] Luthier#1578
Luthier: Heat rock and Chlorophyll
Star: Chlorophyll
Ninja: Heat rock

[redacted]

[18-May-20 01:52 AM] levi#6206
i think bulbasaur is the least collateral

[18-May-20 01:52 AM] levi#6206
bulbasaur/cherry will not be viable w.o chloro

[18-May-20 01:53 AM] Luthier#1578
which is fine

[18-May-20 01:53 AM] levi#6206
heat rock probably makes the least sense, banning it removes manual sun as a viable archetype while still leaving vulp too broken to free likely

[18-May-20 01:54 AM] levi#6206
actually idk abt bulba vs chloro

[18-May-20 01:56 AM] levi#6206
if we ban chloro bulba/cherry are removed (cherry doesnt have another ability) but we get vulp back, if we ban bulba/vulp we can keep manual sun ig

[18-May-20 01:57 AM] Luthier#1578
i mean we are using manual sun currently

[18-May-20 01:57 AM] Luthier#1578
and its p evident that sun is already busted rn

[18-May-20 01:57 AM] Luthier#1578
even while not having to use vulpix

[18-May-20 01:58 AM] levi#6206
i dont think cherry manual sun would be broken

[18-May-20 01:58 AM] Luthier#1578
hold up i think i misread

[18-May-20 01:58 AM] levi#6206
im also not that convinced that even bulba manual sun is outright broken

[18-May-20 01:58 AM] levi#6206
i do think it warrants a suspect tho

[18-May-20 01:59 AM] Luthier#1578
ok

[18-May-20 01:59 AM] Luthier#1578
uhh

[18-May-20 01:59 AM] Luthier#1578
i just dont think sun is fair

[18-May-20 01:59 AM] Luthier#1578
like we tried to nerf if in the past

[18-May-20 01:59 AM] Luthier#1578
and obv it didnt go as well as planned

[18-May-20 01:59 AM] levi#6206
it went fine the first time

[18-May-20 02:00 AM] Luthier#1578
and then bulba came back

[18-May-20 02:00 AM] levi#6206
it was jujst the introduction of bulba

[18-May-20 02:00 AM] Luthier#1578
so

[18-May-20 02:00 AM] Luthier#1578
if we jsut get it of

[18-May-20 02:00 AM] levi#6206
but like idt sun pre-home was broken

[18-May-20 02:00 AM] Luthier#1578
the abuser

[18-May-20 02:00 AM] Luthier#1578
or cripple the abuser

[18-May-20 02:00 AM] Luthier#1578
why dont we just go about that route

[18-May-20 02:00 AM] levi#6206
so its p safe to attribute this to bulba (munch also got worse but like manual sun wasnt even viable pre-home)

[18-May-20 02:00 AM] Luthier#1578
i think cholo kills both of them

[18-May-20 02:00 AM] Luthier#1578
uhh no

[18-May-20 02:00 AM] Serene Grace#5243
Cutiefly was a big deal, webs nerfs sun quite a bit

[18-May-20 02:00 AM] Luthier#1578
its not just bulba

[18-May-20 02:00 AM] Luthier#1578
yea

[18-May-20 02:01 AM] Luthier#1578
cherubi is p good too

[18-May-20 02:01 AM] Serene Grace#5243
Alsouncjalx

[18-May-20 02:01 AM] Serene Grace#5243
Munchlax

[18-May-20 02:01 AM] levi#6206
ya munch cutie, to a small degree floon

[18-May-20 02:01 AM] Luthier#1578
munchlax is no longer

[18-May-20 02:01 AM] Luthier#1578
nearly as good

[18-May-20 02:01 AM] Luthier#1578
as it was before

[18-May-20 02:01 AM] levi#6206
were the major meta trends that were good vs sun

[18-May-20 02:01 AM] Luthier#1578
yes and

[18-May-20 02:01 AM] Luthier#1578
1 is like

[18-May-20 02:01 AM] Luthier#1578
B tier

[18-May-20 02:01 AM] Luthier#1578
and the other one is gone

[18-May-20 02:01 AM] levi#6206
sun was also unviable pre-home, i dont see cherry sun being broken now

[18-May-20 02:01 AM] Luthier#1578
so r u just saying saying bye to bulba

[18-May-20 02:01 AM] levi#6206
bc we've also gotten pony in particular introduced, webs is still relatively good w.o cutie

[18-May-20 02:02 AM] levi#6206
i think thats 1 of the options ya

[18-May-20 02:02 AM] levi#6206
either ban bulba or ban chloro

[18-May-20 02:02 AM] Luthier#1578
ok well

[18-May-20 02:02 AM] Luthier#1578
while u believe

[18-May-20 02:02 AM] levi#6206
banning chloro is a full ban on cherry fwiw, and also renders bulba unviable

[18-May-20 02:02 AM] Luthier#1578
this can keep the archetype of sun in the game

[18-May-20 02:02 AM] Luthier#1578
it also bans bulba

[18-May-20 02:02 AM] Luthier#1578
which some people believe

[18-May-20 02:02 AM] Luthier#1578
have a use outside of sun

[18-May-20 02:02 AM] Luthier#1578
ex: the shelloses team last week

[18-May-20 02:03 AM] Luthier#1578
err 2 weeks ago

[18-May-20 02:03 AM] Luthier#1578
like 2 or 3 of them had defensive bulba in ss

[18-May-20 02:03 AM] levi#6206
i dont think its viable enough to seriously consider as more than minimal collateral

[18-May-20 02:03 AM] Luthier#1578
either way something will be taken as collateral

[18-May-20 02:03 AM] Luthier#1578
ok but

[18-May-20 02:03 AM] Luthier#1578
why do u want to keep sun in the tier at all

[18-May-20 02:03 AM] levi#6206
well collateral is going to happen either way

[18-May-20 02:03 AM] Luthier#1578
i mean ig its better to have a wide plethora

[18-May-20 02:04 AM] Luthier#1578
but idk i just dont think any form of sun is healthy

[18-May-20 02:04 AM] levi#6206
i just think the order goes ban bulba < ban chloro << ban heat rock wrt degree

[18-May-20 02:04 AM] levi#6206
you dont think cherry sun would be healthy?

[18-May-20 02:04 AM] Luthier#1578
n

[18-May-20 02:04 AM] Luthier#1578
cuz the thing ninja said

[18-May-20 02:04 AM] Luthier#1578
like the idea is that u still get access to set up w growth

[18-May-20 02:04 AM] Luthier#1578
and win

[18-May-20 02:04 AM] Luthier#1578
the only real difference is that

[18-May-20 02:04 AM] Luthier#1578
its slightly less bulky

[18-May-20 02:05 AM] Luthier#1578
doesnt resist mach

[18-May-20 02:05 AM] Luthier#1578
and cant set up on mareanie

[18-May-20 02:05 AM] levi#6206
and doesnt get sludge

[18-May-20 02:05 AM] Luthier#1578
well sludge is not really that importnat

[18-May-20 02:05 AM] levi#6206
it is for pony

[18-May-20 02:05 AM] Luthier#1578
grass fire hits everything better

[18-May-20 02:05 AM] levi#6206
and sprit

[18-May-20 02:05 AM] levi#6206
its also important bc it means bulba is still a threat once sun ends, cherry isnt rlly

[18-May-20 02:05 AM] Luthier#1578
well if ur dropping in conditionals

[18-May-20 02:05 AM] Luthier#1578
pony doesnt die from bulba

[18-May-20 02:06 AM] Luthier#1578
at +2 bomb

[18-May-20 02:06 AM] levi#6206
these are all factors that dont affect their core role but make bulbasaur massively better

[18-May-20 02:06 AM] Luthier#1578
yet its still broken

[18-May-20 02:06 AM] Luthier#1578
its easy to chip pony w rocks and force knocks anyways

[18-May-20 02:06 AM] levi#6206
only evio pony lives and not comfortably

[18-May-20 02:06 AM] Luthier#1578
also another thing

[18-May-20 02:06 AM] Luthier#1578
regarding heat rock argument

[18-May-20 02:06 AM] levi#6206
whereas all variants of pony fare ok against cherry, and evio pony even hard walls

[18-May-20 02:06 AM] Luthier#1578
ninja said that u can just outplay

[18-May-20 02:06 AM] Luthier#1578
holistically u cant use that argument

[18-May-20 02:06 AM] Luthier#1578
cuz if u dont outplay

[18-May-20 02:06 AM] Luthier#1578
and the player gets every turn right

[18-May-20 02:07 AM] Luthier#1578
he legit can hit any mon he wants for like what

[18-May-20 02:07 AM] Luthier#1578
5 turns?

[18-May-20 02:07 AM] levi#6206
i think heat rock ban is the worst option of the 3

[18-May-20 02:07 AM] Luthier#1578
err

[18-May-20 02:07 AM] Luthier#1578
8

[18-May-20 02:07 AM] levi#6206
if thats what youre arguing against

[18-May-20 02:07 AM] Luthier#1578
im still pushing chloro

[18-May-20 02:07 AM] Luthier#1578
i think

[18-May-20 02:07 AM] Luthier#1578
Chloro> bulba and cherubi > just bulba > heat rock

[18-May-20 02:08 AM] levi#6206
i just cant see cherry sun being broken

[18-May-20 02:08 AM] levi#6206
the diff between bulba and cherry is so big, like theres a ton of disadvantages to cherry

[18-May-20 02:09 AM] Luthier#1578
yes but

[18-May-20 02:09 AM] levi#6206
lower bulk, no resistance to mach, weak to fi, no sludge, no defensive psn typing

[18-May-20 02:09 AM] Luthier#1578
1 of the things that makes sun so good

[18-May-20 02:09 AM] levi#6206
these things add up

[18-May-20 02:09 AM] Luthier#1578
is that one breaks for the other

[18-May-20 02:09 AM] Luthier#1578
well

[18-May-20 02:09 AM] Luthier#1578
hmm

[18-May-20 02:09 AM] Luthier#1578
i see what ur saying

[18-May-20 02:09 AM] Luthier#1578
abotu cherubi sun not being as good

[18-May-20 02:09 AM] Luthier#1578
and it for sure makes sense

[18-May-20 02:09 AM] levi#6206
also wrt breaking things for the other

[18-May-20 02:10 AM] levi#6206
that applies to cherry bulba but not rlly to other chloro sweepers

[18-May-20 02:10 AM] Luthier#1578
yes

[18-May-20 02:10 AM] levi#6206
since they flat out dont have fire covg

[18-May-20 02:10 AM] Luthier#1578
i mean

[18-May-20 02:10 AM] Luthier#1578
charmander

[18-May-20 02:10 AM] Luthier#1578
ig

[18-May-20 02:10 AM] levi#6206
if we ban bulba then idt dual chloro as were currently dealing w it is an issue

[18-May-20 02:10 AM] levi#6206
charm doesnt need breaking

[18-May-20 02:10 AM] Luthier#1578
it breaks

[18-May-20 02:10 AM] Luthier#1578
for sweeper

[18-May-20 02:10 AM] levi#6206
it jut 1 shots everything

[18-May-20 02:10 AM] Luthier#1578
im saying that

[18-May-20 02:10 AM] Luthier#1578
charmander cherubi sun

[18-May-20 02:10 AM] Luthier#1578
can be good

[18-May-20 02:10 AM] levi#6206
it doesnt rlly lure in cherry's checks or w.e

[18-May-20 02:11 AM] Luthier#1578
what checks

[18-May-20 02:11 AM] levi#6206
to cherry?

[18-May-20 02:11 AM] Luthier#1578
yes

[18-May-20 02:11 AM] Luthier#1578
what checks cherubi

[18-May-20 02:11 AM] Luthier#1578
dont say munchlax

[18-May-20 02:11 AM] levi#6206
fires and specially bulky mons

[18-May-20 02:11 AM] Luthier#1578
its just pony

[18-May-20 02:11 AM] Luthier#1578
its legit just pony

[18-May-20 02:11 AM] Luthier#1578
and that mon will get like

[18-May-20 02:11 AM] Luthier#1578
ohkoed

[18-May-20 02:11 AM] Luthier#1578
after rocks

[18-May-20 02:12 AM] Luthier#1578
by charm

[18-May-20 02:12 AM] Luthier#1578
the idea is that one breaks for the other

[18-May-20 02:12 AM] levi#6206
do you mean switch in on +2 cherry

[18-May-20 02:12 AM] Luthier#1578
yes

[18-May-20 02:12 AM] levi#6206
bc a lot more than just pony can check cherry

[18-May-20 02:12 AM] Luthier#1578
such as?

[18-May-20 02:12 AM] levi#6206
its not starting out at +2 spa

[18-May-20 02:12 AM] Luthier#1578
well yes but it gets it relatively easily

[18-May-20 02:12 AM] levi#6206
and since its not bulbasaur, its harder to get to that +2 spa too

[18-May-20 02:12 AM] Luthier#1578
hmm

[18-May-20 02:12 AM] Luthier#1578
ok are u trying to justify that cherubi doenst deserve a ban

[18-May-20 02:12 AM] Luthier#1578
while bulba does

[18-May-20 02:13 AM] Luthier#1578
thats what im understanding

[18-May-20 02:13 AM] levi#6206
assuming vulpix remains banned yes

[18-May-20 02:13 AM] Luthier#1578
ok

[18-May-20 02:13 AM] Luthier#1578
i still think cherubi would be buste

[18-May-20 02:13 AM] Luthier#1578
d

[18-May-20 02:13 AM] Luthier#1578
just the idea of being able to sweep

[18-May-20 02:14 AM] Luthier#1578
with cherubi u can just

[18-May-20 02:14 AM] Luthier#1578
flex LO

[18-May-20 02:14 AM] Luthier#1578
and not even have to run any set up

[18-May-20 02:14 AM] Luthier#1578
u ohko most of the majority of hte meta after a bit of chipping

[18-May-20 02:14 AM] Luthier#1578
given that this portion is contingent on the actual play

[18-May-20 02:14 AM] levi#6206
chipping is easier said than done when preserving manual sun is already a significant amt of support

[18-May-20 02:14 AM] Luthier#1578
which is more of the skillful non cheese part of sun

[18-May-20 02:15 AM] Luthier#1578
ya ig

[18-May-20 02:15 AM] Luthier#1578
but still bleh

[18-May-20 02:15 AM] Luthier#1578
idk how i feel about it

[18-May-20 02:15 AM] levi#6206
its not like you can just switch in vulp and cherry is automatically an easy threat whenever u want

[18-May-20 02:15 AM] Luthier#1578
i personally would like to see a tier without having sun at all

[18-May-20 02:15 AM] Luthier#1578
i think it would be better that way when u dont haev to wrry about obscure cheese

[18-May-20 02:15 AM] Luthier#1578
but it is what it is

[18-May-20 02:15 AM] levi#6206
i dont agree w trying to ban out cheese as a whole

[18-May-20 02:16 AM] levi#6206
unless its unfairly overcentralizing, which i dont think cherry sun would be

[18-May-20 02:16 AM] Luthier#1578
ok

[18-May-20 02:16 AM] levi#6206
if we were trying to ban out cheese in general w.o regard for their viability

[18-May-20 02:16 AM] Luthier#1578
nah ur right

[18-May-20 02:16 AM] levi#6206
then that would add a lot of other things like webs and rain to the list

[18-May-20 02:16 AM] Luthier#1578
no ur rigth dw

[18-May-20 02:16 AM] Luthier#1578
i think 100% bulb needs to be

[18-May-20 02:16 AM] Luthier#1578
crippled

[18-May-20 02:22 AM] levi#6206
i will try to do council minutes tmrw

[18-May-20 10:03 AM] starmaster#8286
I still think we shoulda banned chloro from the start

[18-May-20 10:03 AM] starmaster#8286
who cares about losing cherubi

[18-May-20 10:03 AM] starmaster#8286
adds diversity to lose that instead of vulpix

[18-May-20 10:34 AM] LilyAC#7887
i think we should ban bulbasaur and cherry

[18-May-20 10:36 AM] levi#6206
Well it didn't make any sense before when oddish sun was balanced

[18-May-20 10:36 AM] levi#6206
Since cherrys illegal w.o chloro

[18-May-20 10:36 AM] levi#6206
Or do you mean once home dropped

[18-May-20 02:10 PM] jake#8907
i think that i also lean towards looking at chlorophyll over other options

[18-May-20 02:11 PM] jake#8907
because that is the central reason why sun is an issue more than anything else

[18-May-20 02:11 PM] jake#8907
but i don't know what historic decisions that would overtake

[18-May-20 02:11 PM] jake#8907
errr

[18-May-20 02:11 PM] Coconut#8762
only thing LC has ever banned irt sun is vulpix

[18-May-20 02:11 PM] jake#8907
yeah

[18-May-20 02:12 PM] jake#8907
i know other tiers have banned drought and similar in the past

[18-May-20 02:12 PM] Coconut#8762
and other tiers in regard to sun right now

[18-May-20 02:12 PM] Coconut#8762
are a mess

[18-May-20 02:12 PM] Coconut#8762
so honestly we're kinda free to do whatever

[18-May-20 02:13 PM] BurntZebra#8147
during vulpix discussion, werent there a decent amount of people who thought pix+pony might be too powerful too

[18-May-20 02:14 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i think diglett is basically the only thing that really deals with pix+pony

[18-May-20 02:15 PM] jake#8907
another thing that's concerning about chlorophyll is potential collateral

[18-May-20 02:15 PM] jake#8907
i *think* all chloro pokemon have other abilities

[18-May-20 02:15 PM] jake#8907
but it also could create move illegalities?

[18-May-20 02:15 PM] jake#8907
and i don't think that should be the primary driving factor for sure either way

[18-May-20 02:15 PM] jake#8907
but it is something to think about

[18-May-20 02:15 PM] BurntZebra#8147
does anything become illegal on oddish

[18-May-20 02:16 PM] jake#8907
no clue i don't know how to check for that

[18-May-20 02:16 PM] jake#8907
apart from manually looking up every move

[18-May-20 02:16 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i think its a safe assumption that oddish is the most viable chlorophyll mon outside of sun

[18-May-20 02:16 PM] BurntZebra#8147
cherubi has 0 usage outside of sun

[18-May-20 02:16 PM] BurntZebra#8147
bulba got like 1-2 uses outside of sun

[18-May-20 02:16 PM] BurntZebra#8147
which is probably 0-1 uses too many

[18-May-20 02:16 PM] Coconut#8762
cherubi is autobanned

[18-May-20 02:17 PM] Coconut#8762
with chloro

[18-May-20 02:17 PM] BurntZebra#8147
well that was the case before home

[18-May-20 02:17 PM] jake#8907
it doesn't have leaf guard or smth?

[18-May-20 02:17 PM] BurntZebra#8147
but did it get an HA with home again

[18-May-20 02:17 PM] Coconut#8762
no

[18-May-20 02:17 PM] BurntZebra#8147
oh it only gets one ability

[18-May-20 02:17 PM] BurntZebra#8147
cherubi getting banned is basically zero collateral though

[18-May-20 02:18 PM] BurntZebra#8147
seeing as its an awful mon outside of sun

[18-May-20 02:18 PM] Coconut#8762
basically zero isn't zero.

[18-May-20 02:19 PM] BurntZebra#8147
find me a replay of cherubi being used on a team that isnt a sun team

[18-May-20 02:19 PM] jake#8907
you're not wrong that it's awful

[18-May-20 02:19 PM] jake#8907
but it is a mon that we would ban through banning chloro

[18-May-20 02:19 PM] Coconut#8762
if we banned bulba or heat rock I could

[18-May-20 02:20 PM] jake#8907
it's the same case as banning sand veil in bw or dpp or whatever it was

[18-May-20 02:20 PM] BurntZebra#8147
idk if banning heat rock would increase cherubi usage

[18-May-20 02:20 PM] jake#8907
it would have banned sandslash and cacturne as well

[18-May-20 02:20 PM] BurntZebra#8147
banning bulba would result in cherubi usage, youre right

[18-May-20 02:20 PM] BurntZebra#8147
but thats still on a sun team

[18-May-20 02:20 PM] jake#8907
though the case there was more about lower tiers i think

[18-May-20 02:21 PM] Coconut#8762
I think sunny day weather ball hwish could be a usable, not good set

[18-May-20 02:22 PM] BurntZebra#8147
im talking about without sun

[18-May-20 02:23 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i guess the argument is whats the ideal component of sun

[18-May-20 02:23 PM] BurntZebra#8147
that stays in LC

[18-May-20 02:23 PM] BurntZebra#8147
vulpix+pony, or heat rockless diglett/riolu+bulba sun

[18-May-20 02:24 PM] BurntZebra#8147
vulpix+pony, despite stacking weaknesses, is really offensively threatening and defensively limiting

[18-May-20 02:25 PM] BurntZebra#8147
would basically require you to run diglett+a pretty solid fire resist

[18-May-20 02:25 PM] BurntZebra#8147
nothing really tanks flare blitz/solar blade/high horsepower pony in sun

[18-May-20 02:25 PM] jake#8907
don't mean to theorymon too heavily but a thought: doesn't that potential situation indicate that both factors of sun (chlorophyll and vulpix) would be potentially overpowered

[18-May-20 02:26 PM] Luthier#1578
Ya that's what I believe

[18-May-20 02:26 PM] Luthier#1578
But Levi thinks that's cherubi sun would be healthy for the meta

[18-May-20 02:26 PM] jake#8907
and that we could (would?) look at pix in such a situation down the line?

[18-May-20 02:26 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i mean yeah i dont think one component is to blame entirely

[18-May-20 02:26 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i think without heat rock, sun would still be pretty threatening

[18-May-20 02:27 PM] BurntZebra#8147
would maybe see some different sets popping up

[18-May-20 02:27 PM] Luthier#1578
Ya I agree w zebra

[18-May-20 02:27 PM] Luthier#1578
I don't think it would be

[18-May-20 02:27 PM] Luthier#1578
NEARLY

[18-May-20 02:27 PM] Luthier#1578
As threatening

[18-May-20 02:27 PM] Luthier#1578
But there are still issues associated with it

[18-May-20 02:27 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i think itd be more likely that the sun sweepers themselves would start running sunny day

[18-May-20 02:28 PM] jake#8907
this also reminds me strongly of the baton pass ban issue

[18-May-20 02:28 PM] BurntZebra#8147
to get the most out of their turns

[18-May-20 02:28 PM] Luthier#1578
Like if we slow down and compare to other tiers:

[18-May-20 02:28 PM] Luthier#1578
UU banned venu

[18-May-20 02:28 PM] jake#8907
where we nerfed it into the ground multiple times in multiple ways

[18-May-20 02:28 PM] Luthier#1578
But venu was the only sun abuser at all

[18-May-20 02:28 PM] jake#8907
and people kept innovating and making it a continuously broken strategy

[18-May-20 02:28 PM] Luthier#1578
ye

[18-May-20 02:28 PM] Luthier#1578
So u just ban the move

[18-May-20 02:28 PM] jake#8907
this is different in that the major change was a gamefreak drop

[18-May-20 02:28 PM] Luthier#1578
We tried to ban torch if

[18-May-20 02:28 PM] Luthier#1578
Torch if

[18-May-20 02:28 PM] Luthier#1578
Fnjsdndn

[18-May-20 02:28 PM] BurntZebra#8147
or ban baton pass+boosting

[18-May-20 02:28 PM] jake#8907
torchic

[18-May-20 02:28 PM] Luthier#1578
Torchic

[18-May-20 02:28 PM] Luthier#1578
Yes

[18-May-20 02:28 PM] Luthier#1578
we tried banning that

[18-May-20 02:29 PM] Luthier#1578
And BP was still broken

[18-May-20 02:29 PM] BurntZebra#8147
we banned boosting with baton pass?

[18-May-20 02:29 PM] Luthier#1578
people will find ways to make it work

[18-May-20 02:29 PM] jake#8907
i don't mean solely in context of lc

[18-May-20 02:29 PM] Luthier#1578
I don't think just banning a mon here fixes the issue

[18-May-20 02:29 PM] jake#8907
i'm thinking more about denissss evolving baton pass

[18-May-20 02:29 PM] jake#8907
throughout gen 6 i think

[18-May-20 02:29 PM] BurntZebra#8147
well yeah there was the full baton pass team

[18-May-20 02:30 PM] BurntZebra#8147
then there was like the 3 user baton pass team

[18-May-20 02:30 PM] jake#8907
yep

[18-May-20 02:30 PM] BurntZebra#8147
then there was the single user critical hit bp team

[18-May-20 02:30 PM] Luthier#1578
Denisssss

[18-May-20 02:30 PM] Luthier#1578
LOL

[18-May-20 02:30 PM] BurntZebra#8147
baton pass feels pretty fundamentally different from sun though

[18-May-20 02:30 PM] jake#8907
he made his mark on smogon forever

[18-May-20 02:30 PM] jake#8907
oh for sure

[18-May-20 02:30 PM] Luthier#1578
I mean ye it’s a completely different archetype

[18-May-20 02:30 PM] BurntZebra#8147
like passing boosts is just a problem in general

[18-May-20 02:30 PM] BurntZebra#8147
doubling speed in weather is not a problem

[18-May-20 02:31 PM] jake#8907
but i'm not sure the "lets ban just a bit to see how much we can retain" path is correct

[18-May-20 02:31 PM] BurntZebra#8147
eg sand rush/slush rush users

[18-May-20 02:31 PM] Luthier#1578
I think the general idea sticks

[18-May-20 02:31 PM] Luthier#1578
That banning 1 non

[18-May-20 02:31 PM] Luthier#1578
Mon

[18-May-20 02:31 PM] Luthier#1578
Does not fix the archetype issue

[18-May-20 02:31 PM] jake#8907
ok that's fair zebra

[18-May-20 02:31 PM] Luthier#1578
Unless that archetype is geared around that mon

[18-May-20 02:31 PM] BurntZebra#8147
you cant ban sun entirely with a single ban though

[18-May-20 02:31 PM] Luthier#1578
Sun isn’t completely geared around bulba

[18-May-20 02:31 PM] BurntZebra#8147
unless you ban activating sun

[18-May-20 02:31 PM] BurntZebra#8147
entirely

[18-May-20 02:31 PM] Luthier#1578
Even tho it’s a major part of it

[18-May-20 02:32 PM] Luthier#1578
I think chloro fixies the issues p well

[18-May-20 02:32 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i think a bulba ban would result in more oddish/cherubi

[18-May-20 02:32 PM] jake#8907
is banning sunny day an option that people would consider

[18-May-20 02:32 PM] jake#8907
i agree

[18-May-20 02:32 PM] BurntZebra#8147
along with the vulpix ban?

[18-May-20 02:32 PM] jake#8907
yes

[18-May-20 02:32 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i mean banning sunny day basically is banning chlorophyll

[18-May-20 02:32 PM] BurntZebra#8147
no reason to run bulba/cherubi if the ability to activate sun is gone

[18-May-20 02:33 PM] jake#8907
banning sunny day and unbanning the better sunny day wont happen

[18-May-20 02:33 PM] Luthier#1578
ya but when u ban sunny day ur reaching into the people that run sun on pony for special pony

[18-May-20 02:33 PM] Luthier#1578
Although it’s not a thing

[18-May-20 02:33 PM] BurntZebra#8147
im just saying that you cant ban the entirety of sun with one ban

[18-May-20 02:33 PM] jake#8907
yea but it doesn't have the side effect of banning a pokemon entirely

[18-May-20 02:33 PM] Luthier#1578
Chloro is my quarantined and restricted in terms of a ban

[18-May-20 02:33 PM] BurntZebra#8147
so you actually have to take a stepwise approach

[18-May-20 02:33 PM] Luthier#1578
Plus it leaves

[18-May-20 02:33 PM] Luthier#1578
Defensive bulba

[18-May-20 02:33 PM] jake#8907
hmm

[18-May-20 02:33 PM] Luthier#1578
Woohoo!

[18-May-20 02:33 PM] Luthier#1578
Defensive bulba!

[18-May-20 02:33 PM] BurntZebra#8147
defensive bulba, for when you dont want to use oddish or budew

[18-May-20 02:34 PM] Luthier#1578
But fwiw multiple people in lcpl find it’s worth

[18-May-20 02:34 PM] Luthier#1578
in defensive bulba so idk

[18-May-20 02:34 PM] Luthier#1578
It gets knock

[18-May-20 02:34 PM] Luthier#1578
Lol

[18-May-20 02:34 PM] BurntZebra#8147
ferroseed

[18-May-20 02:34 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i guess its a fighting resist, but like farfetchd gets brave bird

[18-May-20 02:34 PM] BurntZebra#8147
so grass/poisons arent a great answer

[18-May-20 02:34 PM] BurntZebra#8147
who were the people who ran defensive bulba

[18-May-20 02:34 PM] BurntZebra#8147
in lcpl

[18-May-20 02:35 PM] Serene Grace#5243
fatty used it vs me but it was so useless

[18-May-20 02:35 PM] Serene Grace#5243
defensive bulba is 100% a meme

[redacted]

[18-May-20 02:35 PM] Luthier#1578
LOL

[18-May-20 02:35 PM] Luthier#1578
I mean anywyas

[18-May-20 02:35 PM] Luthier#1578
I think chloro should be the target of a suspect

[18-May-20 02:35 PM] BurntZebra#8147
knock off isnt enough of a niche on its own

[18-May-20 02:35 PM] Luthier#1578
And if we’re running a simultaneous suspect

[18-May-20 02:35 PM] Luthier#1578
We should do chloro and heat rock

[18-May-20 02:35 PM] BurntZebra#8147
when you have viable mons like ferroseed/mareanie/vullaby/timburr that all have knock off

[18-May-20 02:36 PM] jake#8907
personally dont think a simultaneous suspect is the play

[18-May-20 02:36 PM] BurntZebra#8147
idk why we would suspect 2 things at one time

[18-May-20 02:36 PM] BurntZebra#8147
in this scenario

[18-May-20 02:36 PM] jake#8907
if its a piecemeal kind of situation nobody knows what the best option is

[18-May-20 02:36 PM] jake#8907
that's what we're here to figure out

[18-May-20 02:36 PM] BurntZebra#8147
ideally we try to preserve one component of sun

[18-May-20 02:37 PM] BurntZebra#8147
whether that component is vulpix+pony or charmander teams

[18-May-20 02:37 PM] BurntZebra#8147
or if its heatrockless bulba/cherubi teams

[18-May-20 02:37 PM] BurntZebra#8147
its hard to say

[18-May-20 02:38 PM] BurntZebra#8147
heat rock to me doesnt feel like the banworthy component though

[18-May-20 02:38 PM] BurntZebra#8147
like yeah banning heat rock makes chlorophyll mons a lot more limited

[18-May-20 02:38 PM] BurntZebra#8147
but there are a lot of bans that would make chlorophyll mons more limited

[18-May-20 02:39 PM] Luthier#1578
Kk

[18-May-20 02:39 PM] BurntZebra#8147
like heat rock doesnt seem like a problem if the abusers are ponyta/charmander, instead of bulbasaur

[18-May-20 02:49 PM] Coconut#8762
if pony self sets sun, it's sacrificing a moveslot and a turn

[18-May-20 02:49 PM] Coconut#8762
charmander can't set sun on it's own

[18-May-20 02:50 PM] BurntZebra#8147
bulbasaur doesnt run heat rock and set its own sun either

[18-May-20 02:50 PM] BurntZebra#8147
whats your point

[18-May-20 02:51 PM] BurntZebra#8147
my point is that heat rock setter+the abusers, the abuser is the banworthy part, not the heat rock sun setter

[18-May-20 02:51 PM] BurntZebra#8147
because not all abusers are as powerful with 7/8 turns of sun

[18-May-20 02:51 PM] Coconut#8762
no point just making statements

[18-May-20 02:52 PM] Coconut#8762
the abusers by definition can't abuse what isn't there though.

[18-May-20 02:53 PM] levi#6206
i dont think cherry sun is "healthy" but im not sure how youre defining healthy here

[18-May-20 02:53 PM] levi#6206
idt anything should ever be banned or unbanned on healthiness since there isnt a defn that isnt totally subjective

[18-May-20 02:54 PM] levi#6206
the only banworthy traits are overcentralization and uncompetitiveness

[redacted]

[18-May-20 02:57 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i think the abusers are the banworthy component

[18-May-20 02:57 PM] BurntZebra#8147
if comparing the sun setters vs the abusers

[18-May-20 02:58 PM] Coconut#8762 (pinned)
Okay, at this point, I don't really see us reaching a consensus on the best approach to sun. There's lots of different ways we could tackle it, but we're not getting anywhere. So here's what I want to try. We're all going to rank our choices based on what we think will be the best for the metagame in the longterm.

Something like this:

1. Heat Rock
2. Chlorophyll
3. Bulbasaur

[18-May-20 02:58 PM] Coconut#8762
Pinned a message.

[redacted]

[18-May-20 03:06 PM] jake#8907
id go 2 > 1 >>> 3

[18-May-20 03:10 PM] LilyAC#7887
3 >>> 2 > 1

[18-May-20 03:11 PM] Coconut#8762
it was a nazi joke levi

[18-May-20 03:17 PM] Luthier#1578
I’m 2>3>1

[18-May-20 03:17 PM] Luthier#1578
But only cuz Levi convinced me to that

[18-May-20 03:17 PM] Luthier#1578
I had 2>1>3

[18-May-20 03:17 PM] Luthier#1578
Before

[18-May-20 03:19 PM] levi#6206
3 > 2 >>>>>> 1

[18-May-20 03:33 PM] Pablo#5523
Do all of these imply a vulpix unban

[18-May-20 03:33 PM] Coconut#8762
possibly, not certainly

[18-May-20 03:35 PM] levi#6206
There isn’t a CHANCE that heat rock ban should ever imply a vulpix ban

[18-May-20 03:35 PM] levi#6206
Unless we ban both heat rock and chloro or sth

[18-May-20 03:35 PM] Coconut#8762
I'm not worried about pix right at this moment

[18-May-20 03:36 PM] Coconut#8762
I don't think you guys should be either

[18-May-20 03:38 PM] levi#6206
If all three options remove the banworthy element then wouldn’t freeing vulpix go under minimizing collateral?

[18-May-20 03:39 PM] levi#6206
Like it goes 1. Remove banworthy element 2. Adhere to existing policy 3. Minimize collateral

[18-May-20 03:39 PM] levi#6206
All 3 options fit the first two (unless you think cherry sun is busted) and being able to free vulpix would go under 3

[18-May-20 03:40 PM] Coconut#8762
vulpix should not influence our choice in suspect whatsoever.

[18-May-20 03:41 PM] levi#6206
It shouldn’t if 1 and 2 are in contention

[18-May-20 03:42 PM] levi#6206
But why not in this case

[18-May-20 03:42 PM] levi#6206
It should be the same as if vulpix was currently in the meta and we were minimizing collateral

[18-May-20 03:42 PM] Coconut#8762
because vulpix is extremely speculative

[18-May-20 03:42 PM] levi#6206
We try to keep mons in the meta

[18-May-20 03:42 PM] Coconut#8762
and any assumption we make is theory only

[18-May-20 03:43 PM] levi#6206
Ya

[18-May-20 03:43 PM] levi#6206
It might be broken anyways

[18-May-20 03:43 PM] Coconut#8762
so I want to avoid vulpix for right now

[18-May-20 03:43 PM] Coconut#8762
and we can go back to it later

[18-May-20 03:44 PM] levi#6206
It’s not a big pt at all

[18-May-20 03:44 PM] levi#6206
I still think we should consider it slightly tho

[18-May-20 03:45 PM] levi#6206
at the very least it seems pretty clear to me as an indication that heat rock isnt the issue

[18-May-20 03:45 PM] levi#6206
wrt sun as a whole

[18-May-20 03:45 PM] levi#6206
when heat rock can only rlly be considered as the problematic elmt for manual sun (autosun would almost surely still be busted)

[18-May-20 03:51 PM] Pablo#5523
3>2>1

[18-May-20 05:57 PM] starmaster#8286
2>1>3

[18-May-20 06:20 PM] levi#6206
so in summary

[18-May-20 06:20 PM] levi#6206
literally no1 thinks banning heat rock is the best choice

[18-May-20 06:21 PM] levi#6206
and the divide is between people who think cherry sun isnt broken and banning bulba solves the issue (3), and people who disagree w this and so prefer to ban chloro (2)

[18-May-20 06:21 PM] levi#6206
right

[18-May-20 06:34 PM] jake#8907
so far

[18-May-20 06:34 PM] jake#8907
gonna tag everyone sorry if you've already answered

[18-May-20 06:35 PM] jake#8907
@Council check out pinned msg when you can

[18-May-20 06:35 PM] levi#6206
i want to include this in the council minutes

[18-May-20 06:36 PM] BurntZebra#8147
2 > 3 > 1 for me

[18-May-20 06:38 PM] Luthier#1578
https://pastebin.com/uBBhfVVK

[redacted]

[18-May-20 06:38 PM] Luthier#1578
waiting on

[18-May-20 06:38 PM] Luthier#1578
coco, @Kingler @Ninja @Serene Grace @Shrug

[18-May-20 06:38 PM] Luthier#1578
to give me responses

[18-May-20 06:39 PM] Luthier#1578
i will update it when they give response

[18-May-20 06:39 PM] Luthier#1578
we can figure out what the general consensus is after

[18-May-20 06:47 PM] Ninja#8225
1>2>>3

[18-May-20 06:49 PM] levi#6206
damn

[18-May-20 06:49 PM] levi#6206
our first anti-heat rocker.

[18-May-20 06:51 PM] Luthier#1578
kk waiting on 4 more people

[18-May-20 07:12 PM] Shrug#7659
2 > 1 > 3

[18-May-20 07:13 PM] Luthier#1578
ty

[18-May-20 07:13 PM] Luthier#1578
3

[18-May-20 07:43 PM] levi#6206
levi13Today at 6:20 PM
so in summary
literally no1 thinks banning heat rock is the best choice
and the divide is between people who think cherry sun isnt broken and banning bulba solves the issue (3), and people who disagree w this and so prefer to ban chloro (2)

[18-May-20 07:43 PM] levi#6206
this might be wrong actually

[18-May-20 07:43 PM] levi#6206
@LilyAC do you think cherry manual sun wouldnt be broken

[18-May-20 07:44 PM] levi#6206
or do you prefer banning bulba so that we can ban bulba + cherry and free vulp

[18-May-20 07:44 PM] levi#6206
if thats why, then is your argument for banning bulba + cherry over banning chloro just banning the move over the ability

[18-May-20 07:44 PM] levi#6206
@Serene Grace too

[18-May-20 07:45 PM] levi#6206
also

[18-May-20 07:46 PM] levi#6206
@jake @Coconut you guys mentioned that the collateral of completely banning cherry by banning chloro is meaningful

[18-May-20 07:47 PM] jake#8907
i think it needs to be acknowledged

[18-May-20 07:47 PM] levi#6206
ie we'd still want to preserve cherry, no matter how unviable, if possible (without resorting to complex bans or w.e)

[18-May-20 07:47 PM] levi#6206
would that mean we should ban drought over vulpix?

[18-May-20 07:47 PM] jake#8907
what's the logic there

[18-May-20 07:47 PM] levi#6206
vulpix can still run flash fire or w.e

[18-May-20 07:47 PM] jake#8907
no that's different

[18-May-20 07:48 PM] levi#6206
its marginally less collateral

[18-May-20 07:48 PM] jake#8907
that's "ban speed boost not blaziken"

[18-May-20 07:49 PM] levi#6206
but banning speed boost had much more collateral than banning blaziken

[18-May-20 07:49 PM] levi#6206
since ninjask and combusken were also affected

[18-May-20 07:50 PM] jake#8907
the target, as i see it, should not be exclusively to minimize collateral

[18-May-20 07:50 PM] jake#8907
it should be to address what's broken

[18-May-20 07:50 PM] BurntZebra#8147
but if there was no lower tier than OU

[18-May-20 07:50 PM] BurntZebra#8147
the combuksen/ninjask collateral is basically zero

[18-May-20 07:51 PM] levi#6206
a better example would probably be sharpedo

[18-May-20 07:51 PM] levi#6206
who was ou viable

[18-May-20 07:51 PM] Luthier#1578
it was

[18-May-20 07:51 PM] levi#6206
kinda

[18-May-20 07:51 PM] Luthier#1578
not OU viable

[18-May-20 07:51 PM] levi#6206
not seriously

[18-May-20 07:51 PM] Luthier#1578
it was just used as memes

[18-May-20 07:51 PM] Luthier#1578
and then like

[18-May-20 07:51 PM] levi#6206
ok but u know what i mean

[18-May-20 07:51 PM] Luthier#1578
1 time by fmg

[18-May-20 07:51 PM] Luthier#1578
in wcop

[18-May-20 07:51 PM] Luthier#1578
but go ahead

[18-May-20 07:51 PM] Ninja#8225
ou expert corporal levi

[18-May-20 07:52 PM] Luthier#1578
lol

[18-May-20 07:52 PM] levi#6206
but like banning drought would address whats broken too right

[18-May-20 07:52 PM] Luthier#1578
r u going on about the collateral theory

[18-May-20 07:52 PM] Ninja#8225
manual suns still broken though

[18-May-20 07:52 PM] Luthier#1578
also no cuz there are 3 other mons

[18-May-20 07:52 PM] Luthier#1578
that use sunny day

[18-May-20 07:52 PM] Ninja#8225
or do you mean we could free pix

[18-May-20 07:52 PM] levi#6206
our reasoning for banning vulpix over drought was explicitly that we preferred to ban the mon

[18-May-20 07:52 PM] Luthier#1578
with heat rock

[18-May-20 07:52 PM] levi#6206
ya im just arguing for banning chloro being ok

[18-May-20 07:52 PM] levi#6206
even if it hard removes cherry

[18-May-20 07:53 PM] Luthier#1578
👍🏿

[18-May-20 07:53 PM] Ninja#8225
sun is a cheese playstyle much like veils id rather just get rid of it entirely tbh

[18-May-20 07:53 PM] Ninja#8225
Change my first pref to chloro heat rock second

[18-May-20 07:53 PM] Luthier#1578
ninja i had the same mindset as u at first but

[18-May-20 07:53 PM] levi#6206
at least historically, we've treated total unviability as not reelvant wrt collateral

[18-May-20 07:53 PM] Luthier#1578
levi showed that

[18-May-20 07:53 PM] Luthier#1578
getting rid of cheese

[18-May-20 07:53 PM] Luthier#1578
is not what we should do

[18-May-20 07:53 PM] levi#6206
ya like r u gonna ban rain out too

[18-May-20 07:53 PM] levi#6206
i think viability should play a part

[18-May-20 07:54 PM] Ninja#8225
rains not even good though idt

[18-May-20 07:54 PM] Coconut#8762
look at the rain abusers

[18-May-20 07:54 PM] Luthier#1578
LOL

[18-May-20 07:54 PM] Coconut#8762
what the fuck kind of argument is that

[18-May-20 07:54 PM] levi#6206
this is my pt

[18-May-20 07:54 PM] levi#6206
im arguing against banning out all cheese

[18-May-20 07:54 PM] Ninja#8225
gym leader paulsen is a threat on the ladder though

[18-May-20 07:54 PM] Luthier#1578
ok i dont think levi shouldve mentioned rain but

[18-May-20 07:54 PM] Coconut#8762
it's not cheese if it doesn't work

[18-May-20 07:54 PM] levi#6206
its still cheese

[18-May-20 07:54 PM] Luthier#1578
coco what hes trying to say is

[18-May-20 07:54 PM] Luthier#1578
cheese is not

[18-May-20 07:54 PM] Luthier#1578
the point of attack here

[18-May-20 07:54 PM] Luthier#1578
we are just trying to neuter a broken mechanic

[18-May-20 07:54 PM] Luthier#1578
which in this case is

[18-May-20 07:54 PM] Luthier#1578
sun

[18-May-20 07:55 PM] Luthier#1578
but levi thinks that we should nerf

[18-May-20 07:55 PM] Luthier#1578
not destroy

[18-May-20 07:55 PM] levi#6206
gym leader paulsen is evidence that it works

[18-May-20 07:55 PM] Coconut#8762
that's what heat rock does

[redacted]

[18-May-20 07:55 PM] Coconut#8762
or chlorophyll

[18-May-20 07:55 PM] Luthier#1578
i mean any of the 3

[18-May-20 07:55 PM] Luthier#1578
do it

[18-May-20 07:55 PM] Luthier#1578
we're just trying to see

[18-May-20 07:55 PM] Coconut#8762
then what's the issue

[18-May-20 07:55 PM] Luthier#1578
which of the 3 do it best

[18-May-20 07:55 PM] Luthier#1578
we;re explaining that killing sun altogether

[18-May-20 07:55 PM] Luthier#1578
is not the idea

[18-May-20 07:55 PM] Coconut#8762
so we're back to it being just a preference

[18-May-20 07:55 PM] Luthier#1578
basically

[18-May-20 07:55 PM] Luthier#1578
but the baseline is that

[18-May-20 07:56 PM] Luthier#1578
we cant get rid of sun

[18-May-20 07:56 PM] Luthier#1578
cuz we think its cheese

[18-May-20 07:56 PM] Luthier#1578
we need to get rid of it cuz its busted

[18-May-20 07:56 PM] LilyAC#7887
@levi yes to all 3

[18-May-20 07:56 PM] Luthier#1578
not cuz its cheese

[18-May-20 07:56 PM] LilyAC#7887
i assume u meant mon when u said move

[18-May-20 07:56 PM] Luthier#1578
cuz if we got rid of it cuz we thought it was cheese

[18-May-20 07:56 PM] Luthier#1578
we would have to drop all types of cheese

[18-May-20 07:56 PM] Luthier#1578
that means killing aurora veil

[18-May-20 07:56 PM] Luthier#1578
rain

[18-May-20 07:56 PM] Luthier#1578
sand

[18-May-20 07:56 PM] Luthier#1578
and a bunch of other things that dont make sense

[18-May-20 07:57 PM] Luthier#1578
we shouldnt discriminate between forms of cheese based off of viability

[18-May-20 07:57 PM] Luthier#1578
is that what ur saying @levi

[18-May-20 07:57 PM] Luthier#1578
correct me if im wrong

[18-May-20 07:57 PM] levi#6206
ya i meant mon oops

[18-May-20 07:58 PM] levi#6206
and ya luthier thats right

[18-May-20 07:58 PM] Luthier#1578
i agree w levi on this matter

[18-May-20 07:58 PM] jake#8907
that sounds not right

[18-May-20 07:58 PM] levi#6206
but it might be worth adding a 4th option for banning bulbasaur + cherry

[18-May-20 07:58 PM] Luthier#1578
i put that

[18-May-20 07:58 PM] Luthier#1578
when i first tagged

[18-May-20 07:58 PM] jake#8907
Luthier: we shouldnt discriminate between forms of cheese based off of viability

[18-May-20 07:58 PM] Luthier#1578
council

[18-May-20 07:58 PM] Ninja#8225
At that point just ban chlorophyll

[18-May-20 07:58 PM] Coconut#8762
mmmmmmmmmh no.

[18-May-20 07:58 PM] jake#8907
i don't get that

[18-May-20 07:58 PM] Luthier#1578
ok jake so

[18-May-20 07:58 PM] Coconut#8762
that sounds really bad

[18-May-20 07:58 PM] jake#8907
like at all

[18-May-20 07:58 PM] Ninja#8225
Bulba and cherubi being banned sounds awful

[18-May-20 07:58 PM] Luthier#1578
hmm how do i explain

[18-May-20 07:58 PM] levi#6206
ok wait that does sound wrong

[18-May-20 07:59 PM] Luthier#1578
ill reword

[18-May-20 07:59 PM] levi#6206
i think the pt being said here is

[18-May-20 07:59 PM] Luthier#1578
one sec

[18-May-20 07:59 PM] Ninja#8225
Just ban the ability instead of preserving oddish sun

[18-May-20 07:59 PM] Luthier#1578
jake the idea is that

[18-May-20 07:59 PM] Luthier#1578
we cant kill sun

[18-May-20 07:59 PM] Luthier#1578
for the sake of killing cheese

[18-May-20 07:59 PM] levi#6206
we shouldnt ban all cheese, viability *should* be a factor

[18-May-20 07:59 PM] Luthier#1578
ya thats what i meant to say

[18-May-20 07:59 PM] Luthier#1578
mb

[18-May-20 07:59 PM] Luthier#1578
i did the double opposite of what i meant

[18-May-20 08:00 PM] LilyAC#7887
if we ban bulba it only makes sense to unban pix and ban cherry bc otherwise we have vulpix banned for making a single other mon broken

[18-May-20 08:01 PM] Luthier#1578
i mean thats fine but would require a second test

[18-May-20 08:01 PM] Luthier#1578
and thats not in the scope right now

[18-May-20 08:01 PM] levi#6206
ya i think it warrants a vulpix test

[18-May-20 08:01 PM] Coconut#8762
correct

[18-May-20 08:01 PM] levi#6206
i still feel like firespams gonna be crazy strong

[18-May-20 08:01 PM] Luthier#1578
its better to focus on the immediate matter at hand

[18-May-20 08:01 PM] Coconut#8762
we can readjust things right now

[18-May-20 08:01 PM] Luthier#1578
yes

[18-May-20 08:01 PM] Luthier#1578
agree w coco

[18-May-20 08:01 PM] Coconut#8762
so if fire spam is going to be crazy strong

[18-May-20 08:01 PM] levi#6206
banning chloro would warrant this test too tho

[18-May-20 08:01 PM] Coconut#8762
why would we only ban bulba

[18-May-20 08:02 PM] jake#8907
i think so as well levi

[18-May-20 08:02 PM] LilyAC#7887
firespam doesnt sound remotely broken

[18-May-20 08:02 PM] Coconut#8762
if you think fire spam is going to be very strong, heat rock is the objective best option

[18-May-20 08:02 PM] levi#6206
fire spam with pix* would be crazy strong

[18-May-20 08:02 PM] Coconut#8762
because it limits turns of all abusers.

[18-May-20 08:02 PM] levi#6206
i dont think freeing pix should be on the table

[18-May-20 08:02 PM] levi#6206
if we ban heat rock

[18-May-20 08:02 PM] levi#6206
and keep chloro

[18-May-20 08:02 PM] jake#8907
^

[18-May-20 08:03 PM] levi#6206
that sounds just as broken w boots or even eject pack pix

[18-May-20 08:04 PM] Luthier#1578
i think its importnat to realize that the current tier already has

[18-May-20 08:04 PM] Luthier#1578
absolutely awful fire resists

[18-May-20 08:04 PM] Luthier#1578
whihc is one of the reason

[18-May-20 08:04 PM] Luthier#1578
weather ball spam is so strong

[18-May-20 08:04 PM] jake#8907
i mean

[18-May-20 08:04 PM] Luthier#1578
on sun

[18-May-20 08:04 PM] jake#8907
we have a ton of solid fire resists

[18-May-20 08:04 PM] Luthier#1578
i dont think i agree

[18-May-20 08:04 PM] jake#8907
theyre just universally weak to grass except mare

[18-May-20 08:04 PM] Luthier#1578
yea

[18-May-20 08:04 PM] Luthier#1578
ya ay

[18-May-20 08:04 PM] jake#8907
which is trappable

[18-May-20 08:04 PM] Luthier#1578
ya

[18-May-20 08:04 PM] Luthier#1578
i meant to follow up

[18-May-20 08:04 PM] Luthier#1578
w that statement

[18-May-20 08:04 PM] jake#8907
yea

[18-May-20 08:05 PM] Luthier#1578
like adding firepower w pix could make that mroe problematic

[18-May-20 08:05 PM] Luthier#1578
but that being said

[18-May-20 08:05 PM] Luthier#1578
issue right now is sun

[18-May-20 08:05 PM] Luthier#1578
not pix

[18-May-20 08:05 PM] Luthier#1578
lets stay away from theorymoning pix

[18-May-20 08:05 PM] Luthier#1578
and figure out the current sun problem

[18-May-20 08:05 PM] jake#8907
yea

[18-May-20 08:05 PM] jake#8907
well pix is related in that

[18-May-20 08:05 PM] Luthier#1578
hmm

[18-May-20 08:05 PM] Luthier#1578
ya ig

[18-May-20 08:05 PM] jake#8907
it has to be decided what happens to pix

[18-May-20 08:05 PM] jake#8907
as a result of this suspect as well

[18-May-20 08:05 PM] Luthier#1578
i thnk its best to address that after the suspect?

[18-May-20 08:06 PM] Luthier#1578
or is it more important to think about the pix future element

[18-May-20 08:06 PM] Luthier#1578
prior to creating this one

[18-May-20 08:06 PM] jake#8907
addressing it afterward might have an element of uh

[18-May-20 08:06 PM] jake#8907
bias?

[18-May-20 08:06 PM] jake#8907
not sure if that's the right word

[18-May-20 08:06 PM] Luthier#1578
yea i dont think bias is the rigth word LOL

[18-May-20 08:06 PM] jake#8907
like

[18-May-20 08:06 PM] Luthier#1578
im not getting what ur trying to lay down

[18-May-20 08:06 PM] jake#8907
people don't know exactly what theyre voting for

[18-May-20 08:06 PM] Luthier#1578
oh ok ok

[18-May-20 08:06 PM] jake#8907
if we put heat rock on the table

[18-May-20 08:06 PM] jake#8907
and they dont know how vulpix is going to be impacted

[18-May-20 08:06 PM] Luthier#1578
ah ok ok

[18-May-20 08:07 PM] Luthier#1578
i c what ur saying

[18-May-20 08:07 PM] jake#8907
and we bring back pix they might be like ???

[18-May-20 08:07 PM] Luthier#1578
more often then not

[18-May-20 08:07 PM] Luthier#1578
actually

[18-May-20 08:07 PM] Luthier#1578
almost always

[18-May-20 08:07 PM] Luthier#1578
the tests are to ban a mon

[18-May-20 08:07 PM] Luthier#1578
u dont often see mons dropping in being suspected

[18-May-20 08:07 PM] Luthier#1578
( in LC at least )

[18-May-20 08:07 PM] Coconut#8762
we did that with cherubi

[18-May-20 08:08 PM] Coconut#8762
and we've had unban suspects

[18-May-20 08:08 PM] Luthier#1578
what was the consensus on cherubi

[18-May-20 08:08 PM] Coconut#8762
it's just that one's never passed.

[18-May-20 08:08 PM] Luthier#1578
like how much did it sway

[18-May-20 08:08 PM] Luthier#1578
to unban

[18-May-20 08:08 PM] Coconut#8762
no one gave a shit when we undid cherry

[18-May-20 08:09 PM] levi#6206
im completely for being flexible w the banlist after major meta shifts i think

[18-May-20 08:09 PM] levi#6206
dont see any benefit to being rigid, or trying to tier with consideration for future metas that dont exist yet or w.e

[18-May-20 08:09 PM] Luthier#1578
ya i agree

[18-May-20 08:09 PM] Luthier#1578
just one thing i wanted to say tho

[18-May-20 08:10 PM] Luthier#1578
and this involves the holistic view on lower tiers and their ability to cheese

[18-May-20 08:10 PM] Luthier#1578
there was a post written on this earlier but it was about drought in lower tiers

[18-May-20 08:10 PM] Luthier#1578
like its not only LC that has this issue

[18-May-20 08:10 PM] Coconut#8762
levi did you put the council minutes up yet

[18-May-20 08:10 PM] Luthier#1578
legit every single lower tier other than like PU has this problem

[18-May-20 08:10 PM] Coconut#8762
irrelevant that other tiers are having an issue with sun

[18-May-20 08:10 PM] Luthier#1578
i think its important to realize that once DLC comes in and LC open is running up

[18-May-20 08:11 PM] Luthier#1578
almost everyone will be looking to sun

[18-May-20 08:11 PM] Luthier#1578
to run rampant through LC open

[18-May-20 08:11 PM] Luthier#1578
and i want ot limit that as much as possible if i can

[18-May-20 08:11 PM] Luthier#1578
i think sun will def be busted, esp if DLC comes in with more abusers

[18-May-20 08:11 PM] levi#6206
i did not coco

[redacted]

[18-May-20 08:11 PM] levi#6206
wanted a more clear cut summary as to what our indiv stances are

[18-May-20 08:11 PM] levi#6206
atm

[redacted]

[18-May-20 09:51 PM] Serene Grace#5243
1. Heat Rock
2. Bulbasaur
3.  Chlorophyll

[18-May-20 09:56 PM] Serene Grace#5243
i think chlorophyll has too much collateral
like ive thought about using 4th move sunny day on bulky oddish before

[18-May-20 09:56 PM] Serene Grace#5243
and now oddish cant check stuff like say sunny day ponyta

[18-May-20 09:57 PM] Serene Grace#5243
self setters are cool too and not broken

[18-May-20 09:58 PM] Serene Grace#5243
sunny day 3 attack pokemon for example

[18-May-20 09:58 PM] Serene Grace#5243
yes it gets the job done, but its way too broad and gets rid of things unneccesarily

[18-May-20 10:04 PM] levi#6206
er

[18-May-20 10:04 PM] levi#6206
do you think bulbas collateral is worse than heat rock's

[18-May-20 10:06 PM] Coconut#8762
3/5/3 with just kingler.

[18-May-20 10:06 PM] levi#6206
or do you think cherry just has a chance to be broken

[18-May-20 10:06 PM] Coconut#8762
top vote

[18-May-20 10:08 PM] Serene Grace#5243
whats the 3 5 3

[18-May-20 10:08 PM] Serene Grace#5243
like bulba has 5 votes?

[18-May-20 10:09 PM] Coconut#8762
chloro has the most votes.

[18-May-20 10:09 PM] Coconut#8762
heat rock and bulba both have 3.

[18-May-20 10:09 PM] Coconut#8762
bulba has the most 3rd options

[18-May-20 10:10 PM] levi#6206
ninja serene

[18-May-20 10:10 PM] levi#6206
who else put heat rock 1

[18-May-20 10:10 PM] Coconut#8762
I did

[18-May-20 10:11 PM] Coconut#8762
I'm willing to change my vote if there's a significant amount of people outside of the council post in favor of one thing

[18-May-20 10:11 PM] Coconut#8762
but right now the metagame thread favors heat rock.

[18-May-20 10:12 PM] BurntZebra#8147
to me, heat rock goes against tiering philosophy the most

[18-May-20 10:15 PM] levi#6206
yea lets not give our formal votes now i think

[18-May-20 10:15 PM] levi#6206
i mean we can give them but i want to change mine too maybe

[18-May-20 10:16 PM] levi#6206
or at least leave room to, i think im right tho

[18-May-20 10:16 PM] Serene Grace#5243
are we doing ranked choice voting

[18-May-20 10:16 PM] Serene Grace#5243
the one with instant runoff

[18-May-20 10:16 PM] Coconut#8762
no

[18-May-20 10:17 PM] Coconut#8762
but ranked choices is being heavily influenced in the decision

[18-May-20 10:17 PM] Serene Grace#5243
what does that mean

[18-May-20 10:17 PM] Serene Grace#5243
if something has a lot of #2 options does it become more valuable

[18-May-20 10:18 PM] levi#6206
i feel like outside of serene there was a pretty clear divide between cherry sun being suspect-worthy and it not being so

[18-May-20 10:18 PM] Ninja#8225
can we just do like you get 1/2/3 points

[18-May-20 10:18 PM] Ninja#8225
and lowest/highest wins

[18-May-20 10:18 PM] levi#6206
so i dont think ranked choice rlly makes sense

[18-May-20 10:19 PM] levi#6206
like if you think cherry sun isnt immediately suspect worthy then suspecting bulba makes the most sense, if chloro sweepers as a whole are an issue then its just whichever between heat rock and chloro you think preserves more stuff

[18-May-20 10:19 PM] levi#6206
basically heat rock/chloro r way closer to each other than bulba is

[18-May-20 10:20 PM] Ninja#8225
everyone except Zebra and Serene have Bulba either first or last I think

[18-May-20 10:20 PM] levi#6206
and luthier, he said he was 2>3>1 even tho the pb says o.w

[18-May-20 10:20 PM] levi#6206
@Luthier

[18-May-20 10:21 PM] Luthier#1578
i changed back

[18-May-20 10:21 PM] Luthier#1578
i thought more about it

[18-May-20 10:21 PM] levi#6206
but luthier/zebra r in the same boat as well i believe? they do think cherry sun is problematic but heat rock's just worse than chloro

[18-May-20 10:21 PM] levi#6206
ok i see

[18-May-20 10:22 PM] levi#6206
@Serene Grace do u disagree w this

[18-May-20 10:23 PM] Serene Grace#5243
No comment on whether cherubi sun is problematic, i think its too speculative

[18-May-20 10:24 PM] levi#6206
fine

[18-May-20 10:24 PM] levi#6206
ill add a "for the most part" in front of the summary

[18-May-20 10:24 PM] Ninja#8225
I’d rather just do Chlorophyll or Heat Rock because I think it definitely deals with the issue so we don’t need to revisit it

[18-May-20 10:25 PM] Ninja#8225
I might change to Chlorophyll #1

[18-May-20 10:26 PM] Serene Grace#5243
clhlorophpyll ban bad

[18-May-20 10:26 PM] Serene Grace#5243
kills all the self setters

[18-May-20 10:26 PM] Serene Grace#5243
and other stuff

[18-May-20 10:26 PM] Serene Grace#5243
when heat rock gets rid of the issue anyways

[18-May-20 10:27 PM] Ninja#8225
I think Heat Rock would get rid of it but

[18-May-20 10:27 PM] Ninja#8225
Chlorophyll is the only one that guarantees it