[redacted] [15-May-20 02:25 AM] Serene Grace#5243 lets suspect sun now and we can have the results of it before week 7 or playoffs whichever the timeline fits We can vote on Suspect Bulbasaur Suspect Heat Rock [15-May-20 02:25 AM] Serene Grace#5243 or if its a pr decision we can just do whatever they say [18-May-20 12:41 AM] Luthier#1578 can we start talking about this please, sun is getting absolutely out of hand [18-May-20 12:42 AM] Luthier#1578 u can see by the absurd power it has as a matchup fish if u look at like every other game from last week in lcpl [18-May-20 12:42 AM] Luthier#1578 ive been trying to push for us to talk about it but like only 4 of us have been actively addressing the issue [18-May-20 12:46 AM] Luthier#1578 well anyways i might be gone when anyone responds to this but I think there are 2 things we can suspect if we're going for the sun suspect [18-May-20 12:46 AM] Luthier#1578 and i personally think that both should go [18-May-20 12:47 AM] Luthier#1578 but why is sun busted? powerful stab, growth boosting, super speed, and weather boosts fire types [18-May-20 12:47 AM] Luthier#1578 we have 2 ways of shutting this down [18-May-20 12:47 AM] Luthier#1578 i personally think that the 2 things we need to suspect are heat rock and chlorophyll and personally i think it would be efficient to suspect both at the same time [18-May-20 12:48 AM] Luthier#1578 and yes there is precedent to do so, as UU has suspected multiple mons at the same time in the past [18-May-20 12:48 AM] Luthier#1578 @Council please update this chat with your thoughts [18-May-20 12:53 AM] starmaster#8286 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/231290339128770560/711803737408012339/Screen_Shot_2020-05-18_at_12.53.51_AM.png [18-May-20 12:54 AM] starmaster#8286 :messi: [18-May-20 12:54 AM] starmaster#8286 but yeah heat rock or chloro should def be tested [18-May-20 12:54 AM] Luthier#1578 yea thank you [18-May-20 12:54 AM] Luthier#1578 i think everyone sees taht there is a problem [18-May-20 12:54 AM] Luthier#1578 but nobody is moving anything at all [18-May-20 12:54 AM] Luthier#1578 and the longer we dont do anything [18-May-20 12:55 AM] Luthier#1578 the more stupid LCPL weeks are LOL [18-May-20 12:56 AM] Kingler#6931 Sure I'm not 100% on it but Idm suspecting [18-May-20 12:56 AM] Luthier#1578 star and kingler [18-May-20 12:56 AM] Luthier#1578 chlorophyll heat rock [18-May-20 12:56 AM] Luthier#1578 or both [18-May-20 12:57 AM] Luthier#1578 also council vote [18-May-20 12:57 AM] starmaster#8286 its def not gonna be a council vote [18-May-20 12:57 AM] Luthier#1578 ya im just saying [18-May-20 12:57 AM] starmaster#8286 and it should def be one or the other [18-May-20 12:58 AM] Luthier#1578 vote on what u needs to be suspected [18-May-20 12:58 AM] starmaster#8286 idt both rly makes sense [18-May-20 12:58 AM] Luthier#1578 ok [18-May-20 12:58 AM] Luthier#1578 i just [18-May-20 12:58 AM] Luthier#1578 need to create discussion [18-May-20 12:58 AM] Luthier#1578 lol [18-May-20 12:59 AM] starmaster#8286 but yeah ive felt chloro was the cleanest solution since literally december [18-May-20 12:59 AM] starmaster#8286 so id be down for that lol.. [18-May-20 12:59 AM] Luthier#1578 ya [18-May-20 12:59 AM] Luthier#1578 chloro would actually be [18-May-20 12:59 AM] Luthier#1578 like [18-May-20 12:59 AM] Luthier#1578 by FAR [18-May-20 12:59 AM] Luthier#1578 the cleanest solution [18-May-20 12:59 AM] Luthier#1578 charmander isnt as much of a problem as bulb/cherubi [18-May-20 12:59 AM] starmaster#8286 ya and we could free pix [18-May-20 12:59 AM] Luthier#1578 cuz it gets chipped so easily [18-May-20 12:59 AM] Luthier#1578 sure [18-May-20 01:00 AM] levi#6206 what abt pix pony [18-May-20 01:00 AM] levi#6206 could tht be broken [18-May-20 01:00 AM] Luthier#1578 i mean i still think [18-May-20 01:00 AM] starmaster#8286 bro why would this ever be broken [18-May-20 01:00 AM] Luthier#1578 lmfao [18-May-20 01:00 AM] Luthier#1578 its actually pretty good star [18-May-20 01:00 AM] Luthier#1578 if u run physical attacking pony [18-May-20 01:00 AM] Luthier#1578 ohkos everything in sun [18-May-20 01:00 AM] Luthier#1578 other than mareanie [18-May-20 01:00 AM] levi#6206 its like charmander but fast and bulky [18-May-20 01:00 AM] starmaster#8286 and not as strong [18-May-20 01:00 AM] levi#6206 powerhouse [18-May-20 01:00 AM] Luthier#1578 ya its not as strong but [18-May-20 01:00 AM] Luthier#1578 if heat rock is there [18-May-20 01:01 AM] Luthier#1578 u get to change up moves [18-May-20 01:01 AM] Luthier#1578 and abuse [18-May-20 01:01 AM] Luthier#1578 cuz it gets solar blade [18-May-20 01:01 AM] Luthier#1578 for onix and w/e [18-May-20 01:01 AM] Luthier#1578 personally i dont think [18-May-20 01:01 AM] Luthier#1578 that the reason sun is busted is cuz of pony [18-May-20 01:01 AM] starmaster#8286 its def gonna be viable [18-May-20 01:01 AM] Luthier#1578 lol [18-May-20 01:01 AM] starmaster#8286 but [18-May-20 01:01 AM] starmaster#8286 i cant see that breaking the tier [18-May-20 01:01 AM] starmaster#8286 ever [18-May-20 01:01 AM] Luthier#1578 i dont think its [18-May-20 01:01 AM] Luthier#1578 even close [18-May-20 01:01 AM] Luthier#1578 to the problem of sun rn [18-May-20 01:01 AM] Luthier#1578 cherubi bulb [18-May-20 01:01 AM] Luthier#1578 is absolutely absurd [18-May-20 01:07 AM] Ninja#8225 id like to ban [18-May-20 01:07 AM] Ninja#8225 heat rock [18-May-20 01:07 AM] Ninja#8225 with no heat rock the non sun player just has to get 1 predict right pretty much [18-May-20 01:07 AM] Ninja#8225 and you cant do anything w the sun turns [18-May-20 01:08 AM] Luthier#1578 ok [18-May-20 01:08 AM] Luthier#1578 Luthier: Heat rock and Chlorophyll Star: Chlorophyll Ninja: Heat rock [redacted] [18-May-20 01:52 AM] levi#6206 i think bulbasaur is the least collateral [18-May-20 01:52 AM] levi#6206 bulbasaur/cherry will not be viable w.o chloro [18-May-20 01:53 AM] Luthier#1578 which is fine [18-May-20 01:53 AM] levi#6206 heat rock probably makes the least sense, banning it removes manual sun as a viable archetype while still leaving vulp too broken to free likely [18-May-20 01:54 AM] levi#6206 actually idk abt bulba vs chloro [18-May-20 01:56 AM] levi#6206 if we ban chloro bulba/cherry are removed (cherry doesnt have another ability) but we get vulp back, if we ban bulba/vulp we can keep manual sun ig [18-May-20 01:57 AM] Luthier#1578 i mean we are using manual sun currently [18-May-20 01:57 AM] Luthier#1578 and its p evident that sun is already busted rn [18-May-20 01:57 AM] Luthier#1578 even while not having to use vulpix [18-May-20 01:58 AM] levi#6206 i dont think cherry manual sun would be broken [18-May-20 01:58 AM] Luthier#1578 hold up i think i misread [18-May-20 01:58 AM] levi#6206 im also not that convinced that even bulba manual sun is outright broken [18-May-20 01:58 AM] levi#6206 i do think it warrants a suspect tho [18-May-20 01:59 AM] Luthier#1578 ok [18-May-20 01:59 AM] Luthier#1578 uhh [18-May-20 01:59 AM] Luthier#1578 i just dont think sun is fair [18-May-20 01:59 AM] Luthier#1578 like we tried to nerf if in the past [18-May-20 01:59 AM] Luthier#1578 and obv it didnt go as well as planned [18-May-20 01:59 AM] levi#6206 it went fine the first time [18-May-20 02:00 AM] Luthier#1578 and then bulba came back [18-May-20 02:00 AM] levi#6206 it was jujst the introduction of bulba [18-May-20 02:00 AM] Luthier#1578 so [18-May-20 02:00 AM] Luthier#1578 if we jsut get it of [18-May-20 02:00 AM] levi#6206 but like idt sun pre-home was broken [18-May-20 02:00 AM] Luthier#1578 the abuser [18-May-20 02:00 AM] Luthier#1578 or cripple the abuser [18-May-20 02:00 AM] Luthier#1578 why dont we just go about that route [18-May-20 02:00 AM] levi#6206 so its p safe to attribute this to bulba (munch also got worse but like manual sun wasnt even viable pre-home) [18-May-20 02:00 AM] Luthier#1578 i think cholo kills both of them [18-May-20 02:00 AM] Luthier#1578 uhh no [18-May-20 02:00 AM] Serene Grace#5243 Cutiefly was a big deal, webs nerfs sun quite a bit [18-May-20 02:00 AM] Luthier#1578 its not just bulba [18-May-20 02:00 AM] Luthier#1578 yea [18-May-20 02:01 AM] Luthier#1578 cherubi is p good too [18-May-20 02:01 AM] Serene Grace#5243 Alsouncjalx [18-May-20 02:01 AM] Serene Grace#5243 Munchlax [18-May-20 02:01 AM] levi#6206 ya munch cutie, to a small degree floon [18-May-20 02:01 AM] Luthier#1578 munchlax is no longer [18-May-20 02:01 AM] Luthier#1578 nearly as good [18-May-20 02:01 AM] Luthier#1578 as it was before [18-May-20 02:01 AM] levi#6206 were the major meta trends that were good vs sun [18-May-20 02:01 AM] Luthier#1578 yes and [18-May-20 02:01 AM] Luthier#1578 1 is like [18-May-20 02:01 AM] Luthier#1578 B tier [18-May-20 02:01 AM] Luthier#1578 and the other one is gone [18-May-20 02:01 AM] levi#6206 sun was also unviable pre-home, i dont see cherry sun being broken now [18-May-20 02:01 AM] Luthier#1578 so r u just saying saying bye to bulba [18-May-20 02:01 AM] levi#6206 bc we've also gotten pony in particular introduced, webs is still relatively good w.o cutie [18-May-20 02:02 AM] levi#6206 i think thats 1 of the options ya [18-May-20 02:02 AM] levi#6206 either ban bulba or ban chloro [18-May-20 02:02 AM] Luthier#1578 ok well [18-May-20 02:02 AM] Luthier#1578 while u believe [18-May-20 02:02 AM] levi#6206 banning chloro is a full ban on cherry fwiw, and also renders bulba unviable [18-May-20 02:02 AM] Luthier#1578 this can keep the archetype of sun in the game [18-May-20 02:02 AM] Luthier#1578 it also bans bulba [18-May-20 02:02 AM] Luthier#1578 which some people believe [18-May-20 02:02 AM] Luthier#1578 have a use outside of sun [18-May-20 02:02 AM] Luthier#1578 ex: the shelloses team last week [18-May-20 02:03 AM] Luthier#1578 err 2 weeks ago [18-May-20 02:03 AM] Luthier#1578 like 2 or 3 of them had defensive bulba in ss [18-May-20 02:03 AM] levi#6206 i dont think its viable enough to seriously consider as more than minimal collateral [18-May-20 02:03 AM] Luthier#1578 either way something will be taken as collateral [18-May-20 02:03 AM] Luthier#1578 ok but [18-May-20 02:03 AM] Luthier#1578 why do u want to keep sun in the tier at all [18-May-20 02:03 AM] levi#6206 well collateral is going to happen either way [18-May-20 02:03 AM] Luthier#1578 i mean ig its better to have a wide plethora [18-May-20 02:04 AM] Luthier#1578 but idk i just dont think any form of sun is healthy [18-May-20 02:04 AM] levi#6206 i just think the order goes ban bulba < ban chloro << ban heat rock wrt degree [18-May-20 02:04 AM] levi#6206 you dont think cherry sun would be healthy? [18-May-20 02:04 AM] Luthier#1578 n [18-May-20 02:04 AM] Luthier#1578 cuz the thing ninja said [18-May-20 02:04 AM] Luthier#1578 like the idea is that u still get access to set up w growth [18-May-20 02:04 AM] Luthier#1578 and win [18-May-20 02:04 AM] Luthier#1578 the only real difference is that [18-May-20 02:04 AM] Luthier#1578 its slightly less bulky [18-May-20 02:05 AM] Luthier#1578 doesnt resist mach [18-May-20 02:05 AM] Luthier#1578 and cant set up on mareanie [18-May-20 02:05 AM] levi#6206 and doesnt get sludge [18-May-20 02:05 AM] Luthier#1578 well sludge is not really that importnat [18-May-20 02:05 AM] levi#6206 it is for pony [18-May-20 02:05 AM] Luthier#1578 grass fire hits everything better [18-May-20 02:05 AM] levi#6206 and sprit [18-May-20 02:05 AM] levi#6206 its also important bc it means bulba is still a threat once sun ends, cherry isnt rlly [18-May-20 02:05 AM] Luthier#1578 well if ur dropping in conditionals [18-May-20 02:05 AM] Luthier#1578 pony doesnt die from bulba [18-May-20 02:06 AM] Luthier#1578 at +2 bomb [18-May-20 02:06 AM] levi#6206 these are all factors that dont affect their core role but make bulbasaur massively better [18-May-20 02:06 AM] Luthier#1578 yet its still broken [18-May-20 02:06 AM] Luthier#1578 its easy to chip pony w rocks and force knocks anyways [18-May-20 02:06 AM] levi#6206 only evio pony lives and not comfortably [18-May-20 02:06 AM] Luthier#1578 also another thing [18-May-20 02:06 AM] Luthier#1578 regarding heat rock argument [18-May-20 02:06 AM] levi#6206 whereas all variants of pony fare ok against cherry, and evio pony even hard walls [18-May-20 02:06 AM] Luthier#1578 ninja said that u can just outplay [18-May-20 02:06 AM] Luthier#1578 holistically u cant use that argument [18-May-20 02:06 AM] Luthier#1578 cuz if u dont outplay [18-May-20 02:06 AM] Luthier#1578 and the player gets every turn right [18-May-20 02:07 AM] Luthier#1578 he legit can hit any mon he wants for like what [18-May-20 02:07 AM] Luthier#1578 5 turns? [18-May-20 02:07 AM] levi#6206 i think heat rock ban is the worst option of the 3 [18-May-20 02:07 AM] Luthier#1578 err [18-May-20 02:07 AM] Luthier#1578 8 [18-May-20 02:07 AM] levi#6206 if thats what youre arguing against [18-May-20 02:07 AM] Luthier#1578 im still pushing chloro [18-May-20 02:07 AM] Luthier#1578 i think [18-May-20 02:07 AM] Luthier#1578 Chloro> bulba and cherubi > just bulba > heat rock [18-May-20 02:08 AM] levi#6206 i just cant see cherry sun being broken [18-May-20 02:08 AM] levi#6206 the diff between bulba and cherry is so big, like theres a ton of disadvantages to cherry [18-May-20 02:09 AM] Luthier#1578 yes but [18-May-20 02:09 AM] levi#6206 lower bulk, no resistance to mach, weak to fi, no sludge, no defensive psn typing [18-May-20 02:09 AM] Luthier#1578 1 of the things that makes sun so good [18-May-20 02:09 AM] levi#6206 these things add up [18-May-20 02:09 AM] Luthier#1578 is that one breaks for the other [18-May-20 02:09 AM] Luthier#1578 well [18-May-20 02:09 AM] Luthier#1578 hmm [18-May-20 02:09 AM] Luthier#1578 i see what ur saying [18-May-20 02:09 AM] Luthier#1578 abotu cherubi sun not being as good [18-May-20 02:09 AM] Luthier#1578 and it for sure makes sense [18-May-20 02:09 AM] levi#6206 also wrt breaking things for the other [18-May-20 02:10 AM] levi#6206 that applies to cherry bulba but not rlly to other chloro sweepers [18-May-20 02:10 AM] Luthier#1578 yes [18-May-20 02:10 AM] levi#6206 since they flat out dont have fire covg [18-May-20 02:10 AM] Luthier#1578 i mean [18-May-20 02:10 AM] Luthier#1578 charmander [18-May-20 02:10 AM] Luthier#1578 ig [18-May-20 02:10 AM] levi#6206 if we ban bulba then idt dual chloro as were currently dealing w it is an issue [18-May-20 02:10 AM] levi#6206 charm doesnt need breaking [18-May-20 02:10 AM] Luthier#1578 it breaks [18-May-20 02:10 AM] Luthier#1578 for sweeper [18-May-20 02:10 AM] levi#6206 it jut 1 shots everything [18-May-20 02:10 AM] Luthier#1578 im saying that [18-May-20 02:10 AM] Luthier#1578 charmander cherubi sun [18-May-20 02:10 AM] Luthier#1578 can be good [18-May-20 02:10 AM] levi#6206 it doesnt rlly lure in cherry's checks or w.e [18-May-20 02:11 AM] Luthier#1578 what checks [18-May-20 02:11 AM] levi#6206 to cherry? [18-May-20 02:11 AM] Luthier#1578 yes [18-May-20 02:11 AM] Luthier#1578 what checks cherubi [18-May-20 02:11 AM] Luthier#1578 dont say munchlax [18-May-20 02:11 AM] levi#6206 fires and specially bulky mons [18-May-20 02:11 AM] Luthier#1578 its just pony [18-May-20 02:11 AM] Luthier#1578 its legit just pony [18-May-20 02:11 AM] Luthier#1578 and that mon will get like [18-May-20 02:11 AM] Luthier#1578 ohkoed [18-May-20 02:11 AM] Luthier#1578 after rocks [18-May-20 02:12 AM] Luthier#1578 by charm [18-May-20 02:12 AM] Luthier#1578 the idea is that one breaks for the other [18-May-20 02:12 AM] levi#6206 do you mean switch in on +2 cherry [18-May-20 02:12 AM] Luthier#1578 yes [18-May-20 02:12 AM] levi#6206 bc a lot more than just pony can check cherry [18-May-20 02:12 AM] Luthier#1578 such as? [18-May-20 02:12 AM] levi#6206 its not starting out at +2 spa [18-May-20 02:12 AM] Luthier#1578 well yes but it gets it relatively easily [18-May-20 02:12 AM] levi#6206 and since its not bulbasaur, its harder to get to that +2 spa too [18-May-20 02:12 AM] Luthier#1578 hmm [18-May-20 02:12 AM] Luthier#1578 ok are u trying to justify that cherubi doenst deserve a ban [18-May-20 02:12 AM] Luthier#1578 while bulba does [18-May-20 02:13 AM] Luthier#1578 thats what im understanding [18-May-20 02:13 AM] levi#6206 assuming vulpix remains banned yes [18-May-20 02:13 AM] Luthier#1578 ok [18-May-20 02:13 AM] Luthier#1578 i still think cherubi would be buste [18-May-20 02:13 AM] Luthier#1578 d [18-May-20 02:13 AM] Luthier#1578 just the idea of being able to sweep [18-May-20 02:14 AM] Luthier#1578 with cherubi u can just [18-May-20 02:14 AM] Luthier#1578 flex LO [18-May-20 02:14 AM] Luthier#1578 and not even have to run any set up [18-May-20 02:14 AM] Luthier#1578 u ohko most of the majority of hte meta after a bit of chipping [18-May-20 02:14 AM] Luthier#1578 given that this portion is contingent on the actual play [18-May-20 02:14 AM] levi#6206 chipping is easier said than done when preserving manual sun is already a significant amt of support [18-May-20 02:14 AM] Luthier#1578 which is more of the skillful non cheese part of sun [18-May-20 02:15 AM] Luthier#1578 ya ig [18-May-20 02:15 AM] Luthier#1578 but still bleh [18-May-20 02:15 AM] Luthier#1578 idk how i feel about it [18-May-20 02:15 AM] levi#6206 its not like you can just switch in vulp and cherry is automatically an easy threat whenever u want [18-May-20 02:15 AM] Luthier#1578 i personally would like to see a tier without having sun at all [18-May-20 02:15 AM] Luthier#1578 i think it would be better that way when u dont haev to wrry about obscure cheese [18-May-20 02:15 AM] Luthier#1578 but it is what it is [18-May-20 02:15 AM] levi#6206 i dont agree w trying to ban out cheese as a whole [18-May-20 02:16 AM] levi#6206 unless its unfairly overcentralizing, which i dont think cherry sun would be [18-May-20 02:16 AM] Luthier#1578 ok [18-May-20 02:16 AM] levi#6206 if we were trying to ban out cheese in general w.o regard for their viability [18-May-20 02:16 AM] Luthier#1578 nah ur right [18-May-20 02:16 AM] levi#6206 then that would add a lot of other things like webs and rain to the list [18-May-20 02:16 AM] Luthier#1578 no ur rigth dw [18-May-20 02:16 AM] Luthier#1578 i think 100% bulb needs to be [18-May-20 02:16 AM] Luthier#1578 crippled [18-May-20 02:22 AM] levi#6206 i will try to do council minutes tmrw [18-May-20 10:03 AM] starmaster#8286 I still think we shoulda banned chloro from the start [18-May-20 10:03 AM] starmaster#8286 who cares about losing cherubi [18-May-20 10:03 AM] starmaster#8286 adds diversity to lose that instead of vulpix [18-May-20 10:34 AM] LilyAC#7887 i think we should ban bulbasaur and cherry [18-May-20 10:36 AM] levi#6206 Well it didn't make any sense before when oddish sun was balanced [18-May-20 10:36 AM] levi#6206 Since cherrys illegal w.o chloro [18-May-20 10:36 AM] levi#6206 Or do you mean once home dropped [18-May-20 02:10 PM] jake#8907 i think that i also lean towards looking at chlorophyll over other options [18-May-20 02:11 PM] jake#8907 because that is the central reason why sun is an issue more than anything else [18-May-20 02:11 PM] jake#8907 but i don't know what historic decisions that would overtake [18-May-20 02:11 PM] jake#8907 errr [18-May-20 02:11 PM] Coconut#8762 only thing LC has ever banned irt sun is vulpix [18-May-20 02:11 PM] jake#8907 yeah [18-May-20 02:12 PM] jake#8907 i know other tiers have banned drought and similar in the past [18-May-20 02:12 PM] Coconut#8762 and other tiers in regard to sun right now [18-May-20 02:12 PM] Coconut#8762 are a mess [18-May-20 02:12 PM] Coconut#8762 so honestly we're kinda free to do whatever [18-May-20 02:13 PM] BurntZebra#8147 during vulpix discussion, werent there a decent amount of people who thought pix+pony might be too powerful too [18-May-20 02:14 PM] BurntZebra#8147 i think diglett is basically the only thing that really deals with pix+pony [18-May-20 02:15 PM] jake#8907 another thing that's concerning about chlorophyll is potential collateral [18-May-20 02:15 PM] jake#8907 i *think* all chloro pokemon have other abilities [18-May-20 02:15 PM] jake#8907 but it also could create move illegalities? [18-May-20 02:15 PM] jake#8907 and i don't think that should be the primary driving factor for sure either way [18-May-20 02:15 PM] jake#8907 but it is something to think about [18-May-20 02:15 PM] BurntZebra#8147 does anything become illegal on oddish [18-May-20 02:16 PM] jake#8907 no clue i don't know how to check for that [18-May-20 02:16 PM] jake#8907 apart from manually looking up every move [18-May-20 02:16 PM] BurntZebra#8147 i think its a safe assumption that oddish is the most viable chlorophyll mon outside of sun [18-May-20 02:16 PM] BurntZebra#8147 cherubi has 0 usage outside of sun [18-May-20 02:16 PM] BurntZebra#8147 bulba got like 1-2 uses outside of sun [18-May-20 02:16 PM] BurntZebra#8147 which is probably 0-1 uses too many [18-May-20 02:16 PM] Coconut#8762 cherubi is autobanned [18-May-20 02:17 PM] Coconut#8762 with chloro [18-May-20 02:17 PM] BurntZebra#8147 well that was the case before home [18-May-20 02:17 PM] jake#8907 it doesn't have leaf guard or smth? [18-May-20 02:17 PM] BurntZebra#8147 but did it get an HA with home again [18-May-20 02:17 PM] Coconut#8762 no [18-May-20 02:17 PM] BurntZebra#8147 oh it only gets one ability [18-May-20 02:17 PM] BurntZebra#8147 cherubi getting banned is basically zero collateral though [18-May-20 02:18 PM] BurntZebra#8147 seeing as its an awful mon outside of sun [18-May-20 02:18 PM] Coconut#8762 basically zero isn't zero. [18-May-20 02:19 PM] BurntZebra#8147 find me a replay of cherubi being used on a team that isnt a sun team [18-May-20 02:19 PM] jake#8907 you're not wrong that it's awful [18-May-20 02:19 PM] jake#8907 but it is a mon that we would ban through banning chloro [18-May-20 02:19 PM] Coconut#8762 if we banned bulba or heat rock I could [18-May-20 02:20 PM] jake#8907 it's the same case as banning sand veil in bw or dpp or whatever it was [18-May-20 02:20 PM] BurntZebra#8147 idk if banning heat rock would increase cherubi usage [18-May-20 02:20 PM] jake#8907 it would have banned sandslash and cacturne as well [18-May-20 02:20 PM] BurntZebra#8147 banning bulba would result in cherubi usage, youre right [18-May-20 02:20 PM] BurntZebra#8147 but thats still on a sun team [18-May-20 02:20 PM] jake#8907 though the case there was more about lower tiers i think [18-May-20 02:21 PM] Coconut#8762 I think sunny day weather ball hwish could be a usable, not good set [18-May-20 02:22 PM] BurntZebra#8147 im talking about without sun [18-May-20 02:23 PM] BurntZebra#8147 i guess the argument is whats the ideal component of sun [18-May-20 02:23 PM] BurntZebra#8147 that stays in LC [18-May-20 02:23 PM] BurntZebra#8147 vulpix+pony, or heat rockless diglett/riolu+bulba sun [18-May-20 02:24 PM] BurntZebra#8147 vulpix+pony, despite stacking weaknesses, is really offensively threatening and defensively limiting [18-May-20 02:25 PM] BurntZebra#8147 would basically require you to run diglett+a pretty solid fire resist [18-May-20 02:25 PM] BurntZebra#8147 nothing really tanks flare blitz/solar blade/high horsepower pony in sun [18-May-20 02:25 PM] jake#8907 don't mean to theorymon too heavily but a thought: doesn't that potential situation indicate that both factors of sun (chlorophyll and vulpix) would be potentially overpowered [18-May-20 02:26 PM] Luthier#1578 Ya that's what I believe [18-May-20 02:26 PM] Luthier#1578 But Levi thinks that's cherubi sun would be healthy for the meta [18-May-20 02:26 PM] jake#8907 and that we could (would?) look at pix in such a situation down the line? [18-May-20 02:26 PM] BurntZebra#8147 i mean yeah i dont think one component is to blame entirely [18-May-20 02:26 PM] BurntZebra#8147 i think without heat rock, sun would still be pretty threatening [18-May-20 02:27 PM] BurntZebra#8147 would maybe see some different sets popping up [18-May-20 02:27 PM] Luthier#1578 Ya I agree w zebra [18-May-20 02:27 PM] Luthier#1578 I don't think it would be [18-May-20 02:27 PM] Luthier#1578 NEARLY [18-May-20 02:27 PM] Luthier#1578 As threatening [18-May-20 02:27 PM] Luthier#1578 But there are still issues associated with it [18-May-20 02:27 PM] BurntZebra#8147 i think itd be more likely that the sun sweepers themselves would start running sunny day [18-May-20 02:28 PM] jake#8907 this also reminds me strongly of the baton pass ban issue [18-May-20 02:28 PM] BurntZebra#8147 to get the most out of their turns [18-May-20 02:28 PM] Luthier#1578 Like if we slow down and compare to other tiers: [18-May-20 02:28 PM] Luthier#1578 UU banned venu [18-May-20 02:28 PM] jake#8907 where we nerfed it into the ground multiple times in multiple ways [18-May-20 02:28 PM] Luthier#1578 But venu was the only sun abuser at all [18-May-20 02:28 PM] jake#8907 and people kept innovating and making it a continuously broken strategy [18-May-20 02:28 PM] Luthier#1578 ye [18-May-20 02:28 PM] Luthier#1578 So u just ban the move [18-May-20 02:28 PM] jake#8907 this is different in that the major change was a gamefreak drop [18-May-20 02:28 PM] Luthier#1578 We tried to ban torch if [18-May-20 02:28 PM] Luthier#1578 Torch if [18-May-20 02:28 PM] Luthier#1578 Fnjsdndn [18-May-20 02:28 PM] BurntZebra#8147 or ban baton pass+boosting [18-May-20 02:28 PM] jake#8907 torchic [18-May-20 02:28 PM] Luthier#1578 Torchic [18-May-20 02:28 PM] Luthier#1578 Yes [18-May-20 02:28 PM] Luthier#1578 we tried banning that [18-May-20 02:29 PM] Luthier#1578 And BP was still broken [18-May-20 02:29 PM] BurntZebra#8147 we banned boosting with baton pass? [18-May-20 02:29 PM] Luthier#1578 people will find ways to make it work [18-May-20 02:29 PM] jake#8907 i don't mean solely in context of lc [18-May-20 02:29 PM] Luthier#1578 I don't think just banning a mon here fixes the issue [18-May-20 02:29 PM] jake#8907 i'm thinking more about denissss evolving baton pass [18-May-20 02:29 PM] jake#8907 throughout gen 6 i think [18-May-20 02:29 PM] BurntZebra#8147 well yeah there was the full baton pass team [18-May-20 02:30 PM] BurntZebra#8147 then there was like the 3 user baton pass team [18-May-20 02:30 PM] jake#8907 yep [18-May-20 02:30 PM] BurntZebra#8147 then there was the single user critical hit bp team [18-May-20 02:30 PM] Luthier#1578 Denisssss [18-May-20 02:30 PM] Luthier#1578 LOL [18-May-20 02:30 PM] BurntZebra#8147 baton pass feels pretty fundamentally different from sun though [18-May-20 02:30 PM] jake#8907 he made his mark on smogon forever [18-May-20 02:30 PM] jake#8907 oh for sure [18-May-20 02:30 PM] Luthier#1578 I mean ye it’s a completely different archetype [18-May-20 02:30 PM] BurntZebra#8147 like passing boosts is just a problem in general [18-May-20 02:30 PM] BurntZebra#8147 doubling speed in weather is not a problem [18-May-20 02:31 PM] jake#8907 but i'm not sure the "lets ban just a bit to see how much we can retain" path is correct [18-May-20 02:31 PM] BurntZebra#8147 eg sand rush/slush rush users [18-May-20 02:31 PM] Luthier#1578 I think the general idea sticks [18-May-20 02:31 PM] Luthier#1578 That banning 1 non [18-May-20 02:31 PM] Luthier#1578 Mon [18-May-20 02:31 PM] Luthier#1578 Does not fix the archetype issue [18-May-20 02:31 PM] jake#8907 ok that's fair zebra [18-May-20 02:31 PM] Luthier#1578 Unless that archetype is geared around that mon [18-May-20 02:31 PM] BurntZebra#8147 you cant ban sun entirely with a single ban though [18-May-20 02:31 PM] Luthier#1578 Sun isn’t completely geared around bulba [18-May-20 02:31 PM] BurntZebra#8147 unless you ban activating sun [18-May-20 02:31 PM] BurntZebra#8147 entirely [18-May-20 02:31 PM] Luthier#1578 Even tho it’s a major part of it [18-May-20 02:32 PM] Luthier#1578 I think chloro fixies the issues p well [18-May-20 02:32 PM] BurntZebra#8147 i think a bulba ban would result in more oddish/cherubi [18-May-20 02:32 PM] jake#8907 is banning sunny day an option that people would consider [18-May-20 02:32 PM] jake#8907 i agree [18-May-20 02:32 PM] BurntZebra#8147 along with the vulpix ban? [18-May-20 02:32 PM] jake#8907 yes [18-May-20 02:32 PM] BurntZebra#8147 i mean banning sunny day basically is banning chlorophyll [18-May-20 02:32 PM] BurntZebra#8147 no reason to run bulba/cherubi if the ability to activate sun is gone [18-May-20 02:33 PM] jake#8907 banning sunny day and unbanning the better sunny day wont happen [18-May-20 02:33 PM] Luthier#1578 ya but when u ban sunny day ur reaching into the people that run sun on pony for special pony [18-May-20 02:33 PM] Luthier#1578 Although it’s not a thing [18-May-20 02:33 PM] BurntZebra#8147 im just saying that you cant ban the entirety of sun with one ban [18-May-20 02:33 PM] jake#8907 yea but it doesn't have the side effect of banning a pokemon entirely [18-May-20 02:33 PM] Luthier#1578 Chloro is my quarantined and restricted in terms of a ban [18-May-20 02:33 PM] BurntZebra#8147 so you actually have to take a stepwise approach [18-May-20 02:33 PM] Luthier#1578 Plus it leaves [18-May-20 02:33 PM] Luthier#1578 Defensive bulba [18-May-20 02:33 PM] jake#8907 hmm [18-May-20 02:33 PM] Luthier#1578 Woohoo! [18-May-20 02:33 PM] Luthier#1578 Defensive bulba! [18-May-20 02:33 PM] BurntZebra#8147 defensive bulba, for when you dont want to use oddish or budew [18-May-20 02:34 PM] Luthier#1578 But fwiw multiple people in lcpl find it’s worth [18-May-20 02:34 PM] Luthier#1578 in defensive bulba so idk [18-May-20 02:34 PM] Luthier#1578 It gets knock [18-May-20 02:34 PM] Luthier#1578 Lol [18-May-20 02:34 PM] BurntZebra#8147 ferroseed [18-May-20 02:34 PM] BurntZebra#8147 i guess its a fighting resist, but like farfetchd gets brave bird [18-May-20 02:34 PM] BurntZebra#8147 so grass/poisons arent a great answer [18-May-20 02:34 PM] BurntZebra#8147 who were the people who ran defensive bulba [18-May-20 02:34 PM] BurntZebra#8147 in lcpl [18-May-20 02:35 PM] Serene Grace#5243 fatty used it vs me but it was so useless [18-May-20 02:35 PM] Serene Grace#5243 defensive bulba is 100% a meme [redacted] [18-May-20 02:35 PM] Luthier#1578 LOL [18-May-20 02:35 PM] Luthier#1578 I mean anywyas [18-May-20 02:35 PM] Luthier#1578 I think chloro should be the target of a suspect [18-May-20 02:35 PM] BurntZebra#8147 knock off isnt enough of a niche on its own [18-May-20 02:35 PM] Luthier#1578 And if we’re running a simultaneous suspect [18-May-20 02:35 PM] Luthier#1578 We should do chloro and heat rock [18-May-20 02:35 PM] BurntZebra#8147 when you have viable mons like ferroseed/mareanie/vullaby/timburr that all have knock off [18-May-20 02:36 PM] jake#8907 personally dont think a simultaneous suspect is the play [18-May-20 02:36 PM] BurntZebra#8147 idk why we would suspect 2 things at one time [18-May-20 02:36 PM] BurntZebra#8147 in this scenario [18-May-20 02:36 PM] jake#8907 if its a piecemeal kind of situation nobody knows what the best option is [18-May-20 02:36 PM] jake#8907 that's what we're here to figure out [18-May-20 02:36 PM] BurntZebra#8147 ideally we try to preserve one component of sun [18-May-20 02:37 PM] BurntZebra#8147 whether that component is vulpix+pony or charmander teams [18-May-20 02:37 PM] BurntZebra#8147 or if its heatrockless bulba/cherubi teams [18-May-20 02:37 PM] BurntZebra#8147 its hard to say [18-May-20 02:38 PM] BurntZebra#8147 heat rock to me doesnt feel like the banworthy component though [18-May-20 02:38 PM] BurntZebra#8147 like yeah banning heat rock makes chlorophyll mons a lot more limited [18-May-20 02:38 PM] BurntZebra#8147 but there are a lot of bans that would make chlorophyll mons more limited [18-May-20 02:39 PM] Luthier#1578 Kk [18-May-20 02:39 PM] BurntZebra#8147 like heat rock doesnt seem like a problem if the abusers are ponyta/charmander, instead of bulbasaur [18-May-20 02:49 PM] Coconut#8762 if pony self sets sun, it's sacrificing a moveslot and a turn [18-May-20 02:49 PM] Coconut#8762 charmander can't set sun on it's own [18-May-20 02:50 PM] BurntZebra#8147 bulbasaur doesnt run heat rock and set its own sun either [18-May-20 02:50 PM] BurntZebra#8147 whats your point [18-May-20 02:51 PM] BurntZebra#8147 my point is that heat rock setter+the abusers, the abuser is the banworthy part, not the heat rock sun setter [18-May-20 02:51 PM] BurntZebra#8147 because not all abusers are as powerful with 7/8 turns of sun [18-May-20 02:51 PM] Coconut#8762 no point just making statements [18-May-20 02:52 PM] Coconut#8762 the abusers by definition can't abuse what isn't there though. [18-May-20 02:53 PM] levi#6206 i dont think cherry sun is "healthy" but im not sure how youre defining healthy here [18-May-20 02:53 PM] levi#6206 idt anything should ever be banned or unbanned on healthiness since there isnt a defn that isnt totally subjective [18-May-20 02:54 PM] levi#6206 the only banworthy traits are overcentralization and uncompetitiveness [redacted] [18-May-20 02:57 PM] BurntZebra#8147 i think the abusers are the banworthy component [18-May-20 02:57 PM] BurntZebra#8147 if comparing the sun setters vs the abusers [18-May-20 02:58 PM] Coconut#8762 (pinned) Okay, at this point, I don't really see us reaching a consensus on the best approach to sun. There's lots of different ways we could tackle it, but we're not getting anywhere. So here's what I want to try. We're all going to rank our choices based on what we think will be the best for the metagame in the longterm. Something like this: 1. Heat Rock 2. Chlorophyll 3. Bulbasaur [18-May-20 02:58 PM] Coconut#8762 Pinned a message. [redacted] [18-May-20 03:06 PM] jake#8907 id go 2 > 1 >>> 3 [18-May-20 03:10 PM] LilyAC#7887 3 >>> 2 > 1 [18-May-20 03:11 PM] Coconut#8762 it was a nazi joke levi [18-May-20 03:17 PM] Luthier#1578 I’m 2>3>1 [18-May-20 03:17 PM] Luthier#1578 But only cuz Levi convinced me to that [18-May-20 03:17 PM] Luthier#1578 I had 2>1>3 [18-May-20 03:17 PM] Luthier#1578 Before [18-May-20 03:19 PM] levi#6206 3 > 2 >>>>>> 1 [18-May-20 03:33 PM] Pablo#5523 Do all of these imply a vulpix unban [18-May-20 03:33 PM] Coconut#8762 possibly, not certainly [18-May-20 03:35 PM] levi#6206 There isn’t a CHANCE that heat rock ban should ever imply a vulpix ban [18-May-20 03:35 PM] levi#6206 Unless we ban both heat rock and chloro or sth [18-May-20 03:35 PM] Coconut#8762 I'm not worried about pix right at this moment [18-May-20 03:36 PM] Coconut#8762 I don't think you guys should be either [18-May-20 03:38 PM] levi#6206 If all three options remove the banworthy element then wouldn’t freeing vulpix go under minimizing collateral? [18-May-20 03:39 PM] levi#6206 Like it goes 1. Remove banworthy element 2. Adhere to existing policy 3. Minimize collateral [18-May-20 03:39 PM] levi#6206 All 3 options fit the first two (unless you think cherry sun is busted) and being able to free vulpix would go under 3 [18-May-20 03:40 PM] Coconut#8762 vulpix should not influence our choice in suspect whatsoever. [18-May-20 03:41 PM] levi#6206 It shouldn’t if 1 and 2 are in contention [18-May-20 03:42 PM] levi#6206 But why not in this case [18-May-20 03:42 PM] levi#6206 It should be the same as if vulpix was currently in the meta and we were minimizing collateral [18-May-20 03:42 PM] Coconut#8762 because vulpix is extremely speculative [18-May-20 03:42 PM] levi#6206 We try to keep mons in the meta [18-May-20 03:42 PM] Coconut#8762 and any assumption we make is theory only [18-May-20 03:43 PM] levi#6206 Ya [18-May-20 03:43 PM] levi#6206 It might be broken anyways [18-May-20 03:43 PM] Coconut#8762 so I want to avoid vulpix for right now [18-May-20 03:43 PM] Coconut#8762 and we can go back to it later [18-May-20 03:44 PM] levi#6206 It’s not a big pt at all [18-May-20 03:44 PM] levi#6206 I still think we should consider it slightly tho [18-May-20 03:45 PM] levi#6206 at the very least it seems pretty clear to me as an indication that heat rock isnt the issue [18-May-20 03:45 PM] levi#6206 wrt sun as a whole [18-May-20 03:45 PM] levi#6206 when heat rock can only rlly be considered as the problematic elmt for manual sun (autosun would almost surely still be busted) [18-May-20 03:51 PM] Pablo#5523 3>2>1 [18-May-20 05:57 PM] starmaster#8286 2>1>3 [18-May-20 06:20 PM] levi#6206 so in summary [18-May-20 06:20 PM] levi#6206 literally no1 thinks banning heat rock is the best choice [18-May-20 06:21 PM] levi#6206 and the divide is between people who think cherry sun isnt broken and banning bulba solves the issue (3), and people who disagree w this and so prefer to ban chloro (2) [18-May-20 06:21 PM] levi#6206 right [18-May-20 06:34 PM] jake#8907 so far [18-May-20 06:34 PM] jake#8907 gonna tag everyone sorry if you've already answered [18-May-20 06:35 PM] jake#8907 @Council check out pinned msg when you can [18-May-20 06:35 PM] levi#6206 i want to include this in the council minutes [18-May-20 06:36 PM] BurntZebra#8147 2 > 3 > 1 for me [18-May-20 06:38 PM] Luthier#1578 https://pastebin.com/uBBhfVVK [redacted] [18-May-20 06:38 PM] Luthier#1578 waiting on [18-May-20 06:38 PM] Luthier#1578 coco, @Kingler @Ninja @Serene Grace @Shrug [18-May-20 06:38 PM] Luthier#1578 to give me responses [18-May-20 06:39 PM] Luthier#1578 i will update it when they give response [18-May-20 06:39 PM] Luthier#1578 we can figure out what the general consensus is after [18-May-20 06:47 PM] Ninja#8225 1>2>>3 [18-May-20 06:49 PM] levi#6206 damn [18-May-20 06:49 PM] levi#6206 our first anti-heat rocker. [18-May-20 06:51 PM] Luthier#1578 kk waiting on 4 more people [18-May-20 07:12 PM] Shrug#7659 2 > 1 > 3 [18-May-20 07:13 PM] Luthier#1578 ty [18-May-20 07:13 PM] Luthier#1578 3 [18-May-20 07:43 PM] levi#6206 levi13Today at 6:20 PM so in summary literally no1 thinks banning heat rock is the best choice and the divide is between people who think cherry sun isnt broken and banning bulba solves the issue (3), and people who disagree w this and so prefer to ban chloro (2) [18-May-20 07:43 PM] levi#6206 this might be wrong actually [18-May-20 07:43 PM] levi#6206 @LilyAC do you think cherry manual sun wouldnt be broken [18-May-20 07:44 PM] levi#6206 or do you prefer banning bulba so that we can ban bulba + cherry and free vulp [18-May-20 07:44 PM] levi#6206 if thats why, then is your argument for banning bulba + cherry over banning chloro just banning the move over the ability [18-May-20 07:44 PM] levi#6206 @Serene Grace too [18-May-20 07:45 PM] levi#6206 also [18-May-20 07:46 PM] levi#6206 @jake @Coconut you guys mentioned that the collateral of completely banning cherry by banning chloro is meaningful [18-May-20 07:47 PM] jake#8907 i think it needs to be acknowledged [18-May-20 07:47 PM] levi#6206 ie we'd still want to preserve cherry, no matter how unviable, if possible (without resorting to complex bans or w.e) [18-May-20 07:47 PM] levi#6206 would that mean we should ban drought over vulpix? [18-May-20 07:47 PM] jake#8907 what's the logic there [18-May-20 07:47 PM] levi#6206 vulpix can still run flash fire or w.e [18-May-20 07:47 PM] jake#8907 no that's different [18-May-20 07:48 PM] levi#6206 its marginally less collateral [18-May-20 07:48 PM] jake#8907 that's "ban speed boost not blaziken" [18-May-20 07:49 PM] levi#6206 but banning speed boost had much more collateral than banning blaziken [18-May-20 07:49 PM] levi#6206 since ninjask and combusken were also affected [18-May-20 07:50 PM] jake#8907 the target, as i see it, should not be exclusively to minimize collateral [18-May-20 07:50 PM] jake#8907 it should be to address what's broken [18-May-20 07:50 PM] BurntZebra#8147 but if there was no lower tier than OU [18-May-20 07:50 PM] BurntZebra#8147 the combuksen/ninjask collateral is basically zero [18-May-20 07:51 PM] levi#6206 a better example would probably be sharpedo [18-May-20 07:51 PM] levi#6206 who was ou viable [18-May-20 07:51 PM] Luthier#1578 it was [18-May-20 07:51 PM] levi#6206 kinda [18-May-20 07:51 PM] Luthier#1578 not OU viable [18-May-20 07:51 PM] levi#6206 not seriously [18-May-20 07:51 PM] Luthier#1578 it was just used as memes [18-May-20 07:51 PM] Luthier#1578 and then like [18-May-20 07:51 PM] levi#6206 ok but u know what i mean [18-May-20 07:51 PM] Luthier#1578 1 time by fmg [18-May-20 07:51 PM] Luthier#1578 in wcop [18-May-20 07:51 PM] Luthier#1578 but go ahead [18-May-20 07:51 PM] Ninja#8225 ou expert corporal levi [18-May-20 07:52 PM] Luthier#1578 lol [18-May-20 07:52 PM] levi#6206 but like banning drought would address whats broken too right [18-May-20 07:52 PM] Luthier#1578 r u going on about the collateral theory [18-May-20 07:52 PM] Ninja#8225 manual suns still broken though [18-May-20 07:52 PM] Luthier#1578 also no cuz there are 3 other mons [18-May-20 07:52 PM] Luthier#1578 that use sunny day [18-May-20 07:52 PM] Ninja#8225 or do you mean we could free pix [18-May-20 07:52 PM] levi#6206 our reasoning for banning vulpix over drought was explicitly that we preferred to ban the mon [18-May-20 07:52 PM] Luthier#1578 with heat rock [18-May-20 07:52 PM] levi#6206 ya im just arguing for banning chloro being ok [18-May-20 07:52 PM] levi#6206 even if it hard removes cherry [18-May-20 07:53 PM] Luthier#1578 👍🏿 [18-May-20 07:53 PM] Ninja#8225 sun is a cheese playstyle much like veils id rather just get rid of it entirely tbh [18-May-20 07:53 PM] Ninja#8225 Change my first pref to chloro heat rock second [18-May-20 07:53 PM] Luthier#1578 ninja i had the same mindset as u at first but [18-May-20 07:53 PM] levi#6206 at least historically, we've treated total unviability as not reelvant wrt collateral [18-May-20 07:53 PM] Luthier#1578 levi showed that [18-May-20 07:53 PM] Luthier#1578 getting rid of cheese [18-May-20 07:53 PM] Luthier#1578 is not what we should do [18-May-20 07:53 PM] levi#6206 ya like r u gonna ban rain out too [18-May-20 07:53 PM] levi#6206 i think viability should play a part [18-May-20 07:54 PM] Ninja#8225 rains not even good though idt [18-May-20 07:54 PM] Coconut#8762 look at the rain abusers [18-May-20 07:54 PM] Luthier#1578 LOL [18-May-20 07:54 PM] Coconut#8762 what the fuck kind of argument is that [18-May-20 07:54 PM] levi#6206 this is my pt [18-May-20 07:54 PM] levi#6206 im arguing against banning out all cheese [18-May-20 07:54 PM] Ninja#8225 gym leader paulsen is a threat on the ladder though [18-May-20 07:54 PM] Luthier#1578 ok i dont think levi shouldve mentioned rain but [18-May-20 07:54 PM] Coconut#8762 it's not cheese if it doesn't work [18-May-20 07:54 PM] levi#6206 its still cheese [18-May-20 07:54 PM] Luthier#1578 coco what hes trying to say is [18-May-20 07:54 PM] Luthier#1578 cheese is not [18-May-20 07:54 PM] Luthier#1578 the point of attack here [18-May-20 07:54 PM] Luthier#1578 we are just trying to neuter a broken mechanic [18-May-20 07:54 PM] Luthier#1578 which in this case is [18-May-20 07:54 PM] Luthier#1578 sun [18-May-20 07:55 PM] Luthier#1578 but levi thinks that we should nerf [18-May-20 07:55 PM] Luthier#1578 not destroy [18-May-20 07:55 PM] levi#6206 gym leader paulsen is evidence that it works [18-May-20 07:55 PM] Coconut#8762 that's what heat rock does [redacted] [18-May-20 07:55 PM] Coconut#8762 or chlorophyll [18-May-20 07:55 PM] Luthier#1578 i mean any of the 3 [18-May-20 07:55 PM] Luthier#1578 do it [18-May-20 07:55 PM] Luthier#1578 we're just trying to see [18-May-20 07:55 PM] Coconut#8762 then what's the issue [18-May-20 07:55 PM] Luthier#1578 which of the 3 do it best [18-May-20 07:55 PM] Luthier#1578 we;re explaining that killing sun altogether [18-May-20 07:55 PM] Luthier#1578 is not the idea [18-May-20 07:55 PM] Coconut#8762 so we're back to it being just a preference [18-May-20 07:55 PM] Luthier#1578 basically [18-May-20 07:55 PM] Luthier#1578 but the baseline is that [18-May-20 07:56 PM] Luthier#1578 we cant get rid of sun [18-May-20 07:56 PM] Luthier#1578 cuz we think its cheese [18-May-20 07:56 PM] Luthier#1578 we need to get rid of it cuz its busted [18-May-20 07:56 PM] LilyAC#7887 @levi yes to all 3 [18-May-20 07:56 PM] Luthier#1578 not cuz its cheese [18-May-20 07:56 PM] LilyAC#7887 i assume u meant mon when u said move [18-May-20 07:56 PM] Luthier#1578 cuz if we got rid of it cuz we thought it was cheese [18-May-20 07:56 PM] Luthier#1578 we would have to drop all types of cheese [18-May-20 07:56 PM] Luthier#1578 that means killing aurora veil [18-May-20 07:56 PM] Luthier#1578 rain [18-May-20 07:56 PM] Luthier#1578 sand [18-May-20 07:56 PM] Luthier#1578 and a bunch of other things that dont make sense [18-May-20 07:57 PM] Luthier#1578 we shouldnt discriminate between forms of cheese based off of viability [18-May-20 07:57 PM] Luthier#1578 is that what ur saying @levi [18-May-20 07:57 PM] Luthier#1578 correct me if im wrong [18-May-20 07:57 PM] levi#6206 ya i meant mon oops [18-May-20 07:58 PM] levi#6206 and ya luthier thats right [18-May-20 07:58 PM] Luthier#1578 i agree w levi on this matter [18-May-20 07:58 PM] jake#8907 that sounds not right [18-May-20 07:58 PM] levi#6206 but it might be worth adding a 4th option for banning bulbasaur + cherry [18-May-20 07:58 PM] Luthier#1578 i put that [18-May-20 07:58 PM] Luthier#1578 when i first tagged [18-May-20 07:58 PM] jake#8907 Luthier: we shouldnt discriminate between forms of cheese based off of viability [18-May-20 07:58 PM] Luthier#1578 council [18-May-20 07:58 PM] Ninja#8225 At that point just ban chlorophyll [18-May-20 07:58 PM] Coconut#8762 mmmmmmmmmh no. [18-May-20 07:58 PM] jake#8907 i don't get that [18-May-20 07:58 PM] Luthier#1578 ok jake so [18-May-20 07:58 PM] Coconut#8762 that sounds really bad [18-May-20 07:58 PM] jake#8907 like at all [18-May-20 07:58 PM] Ninja#8225 Bulba and cherubi being banned sounds awful [18-May-20 07:58 PM] Luthier#1578 hmm how do i explain [18-May-20 07:58 PM] levi#6206 ok wait that does sound wrong [18-May-20 07:59 PM] Luthier#1578 ill reword [18-May-20 07:59 PM] levi#6206 i think the pt being said here is [18-May-20 07:59 PM] Luthier#1578 one sec [18-May-20 07:59 PM] Ninja#8225 Just ban the ability instead of preserving oddish sun [18-May-20 07:59 PM] Luthier#1578 jake the idea is that [18-May-20 07:59 PM] Luthier#1578 we cant kill sun [18-May-20 07:59 PM] Luthier#1578 for the sake of killing cheese [18-May-20 07:59 PM] levi#6206 we shouldnt ban all cheese, viability *should* be a factor [18-May-20 07:59 PM] Luthier#1578 ya thats what i meant to say [18-May-20 07:59 PM] Luthier#1578 mb [18-May-20 07:59 PM] Luthier#1578 i did the double opposite of what i meant [18-May-20 08:00 PM] LilyAC#7887 if we ban bulba it only makes sense to unban pix and ban cherry bc otherwise we have vulpix banned for making a single other mon broken [18-May-20 08:01 PM] Luthier#1578 i mean thats fine but would require a second test [18-May-20 08:01 PM] Luthier#1578 and thats not in the scope right now [18-May-20 08:01 PM] levi#6206 ya i think it warrants a vulpix test [18-May-20 08:01 PM] Coconut#8762 correct [18-May-20 08:01 PM] levi#6206 i still feel like firespams gonna be crazy strong [18-May-20 08:01 PM] Luthier#1578 its better to focus on the immediate matter at hand [18-May-20 08:01 PM] Coconut#8762 we can readjust things right now [18-May-20 08:01 PM] Luthier#1578 yes [18-May-20 08:01 PM] Luthier#1578 agree w coco [18-May-20 08:01 PM] Coconut#8762 so if fire spam is going to be crazy strong [18-May-20 08:01 PM] levi#6206 banning chloro would warrant this test too tho [18-May-20 08:01 PM] Coconut#8762 why would we only ban bulba [18-May-20 08:02 PM] jake#8907 i think so as well levi [18-May-20 08:02 PM] LilyAC#7887 firespam doesnt sound remotely broken [18-May-20 08:02 PM] Coconut#8762 if you think fire spam is going to be very strong, heat rock is the objective best option [18-May-20 08:02 PM] levi#6206 fire spam with pix* would be crazy strong [18-May-20 08:02 PM] Coconut#8762 because it limits turns of all abusers. [18-May-20 08:02 PM] levi#6206 i dont think freeing pix should be on the table [18-May-20 08:02 PM] levi#6206 if we ban heat rock [18-May-20 08:02 PM] levi#6206 and keep chloro [18-May-20 08:02 PM] jake#8907 ^ [18-May-20 08:03 PM] levi#6206 that sounds just as broken w boots or even eject pack pix [18-May-20 08:04 PM] Luthier#1578 i think its importnat to realize that the current tier already has [18-May-20 08:04 PM] Luthier#1578 absolutely awful fire resists [18-May-20 08:04 PM] Luthier#1578 whihc is one of the reason [18-May-20 08:04 PM] Luthier#1578 weather ball spam is so strong [18-May-20 08:04 PM] jake#8907 i mean [18-May-20 08:04 PM] Luthier#1578 on sun [18-May-20 08:04 PM] jake#8907 we have a ton of solid fire resists [18-May-20 08:04 PM] Luthier#1578 i dont think i agree [18-May-20 08:04 PM] jake#8907 theyre just universally weak to grass except mare [18-May-20 08:04 PM] Luthier#1578 yea [18-May-20 08:04 PM] Luthier#1578 ya ay [18-May-20 08:04 PM] jake#8907 which is trappable [18-May-20 08:04 PM] Luthier#1578 ya [18-May-20 08:04 PM] Luthier#1578 i meant to follow up [18-May-20 08:04 PM] Luthier#1578 w that statement [18-May-20 08:04 PM] jake#8907 yea [18-May-20 08:05 PM] Luthier#1578 like adding firepower w pix could make that mroe problematic [18-May-20 08:05 PM] Luthier#1578 but that being said [18-May-20 08:05 PM] Luthier#1578 issue right now is sun [18-May-20 08:05 PM] Luthier#1578 not pix [18-May-20 08:05 PM] Luthier#1578 lets stay away from theorymoning pix [18-May-20 08:05 PM] Luthier#1578 and figure out the current sun problem [18-May-20 08:05 PM] jake#8907 yea [18-May-20 08:05 PM] jake#8907 well pix is related in that [18-May-20 08:05 PM] Luthier#1578 hmm [18-May-20 08:05 PM] Luthier#1578 ya ig [18-May-20 08:05 PM] jake#8907 it has to be decided what happens to pix [18-May-20 08:05 PM] jake#8907 as a result of this suspect as well [18-May-20 08:05 PM] Luthier#1578 i thnk its best to address that after the suspect? [18-May-20 08:06 PM] Luthier#1578 or is it more important to think about the pix future element [18-May-20 08:06 PM] Luthier#1578 prior to creating this one [18-May-20 08:06 PM] jake#8907 addressing it afterward might have an element of uh [18-May-20 08:06 PM] jake#8907 bias? [18-May-20 08:06 PM] jake#8907 not sure if that's the right word [18-May-20 08:06 PM] Luthier#1578 yea i dont think bias is the rigth word LOL [18-May-20 08:06 PM] jake#8907 like [18-May-20 08:06 PM] Luthier#1578 im not getting what ur trying to lay down [18-May-20 08:06 PM] jake#8907 people don't know exactly what theyre voting for [18-May-20 08:06 PM] Luthier#1578 oh ok ok [18-May-20 08:06 PM] jake#8907 if we put heat rock on the table [18-May-20 08:06 PM] jake#8907 and they dont know how vulpix is going to be impacted [18-May-20 08:06 PM] Luthier#1578 ah ok ok [18-May-20 08:07 PM] Luthier#1578 i c what ur saying [18-May-20 08:07 PM] jake#8907 and we bring back pix they might be like ??? [18-May-20 08:07 PM] Luthier#1578 more often then not [18-May-20 08:07 PM] Luthier#1578 actually [18-May-20 08:07 PM] Luthier#1578 almost always [18-May-20 08:07 PM] Luthier#1578 the tests are to ban a mon [18-May-20 08:07 PM] Luthier#1578 u dont often see mons dropping in being suspected [18-May-20 08:07 PM] Luthier#1578 ( in LC at least ) [18-May-20 08:07 PM] Coconut#8762 we did that with cherubi [18-May-20 08:08 PM] Coconut#8762 and we've had unban suspects [18-May-20 08:08 PM] Luthier#1578 what was the consensus on cherubi [18-May-20 08:08 PM] Coconut#8762 it's just that one's never passed. [18-May-20 08:08 PM] Luthier#1578 like how much did it sway [18-May-20 08:08 PM] Luthier#1578 to unban [18-May-20 08:08 PM] Coconut#8762 no one gave a shit when we undid cherry [18-May-20 08:09 PM] levi#6206 im completely for being flexible w the banlist after major meta shifts i think [18-May-20 08:09 PM] levi#6206 dont see any benefit to being rigid, or trying to tier with consideration for future metas that dont exist yet or w.e [18-May-20 08:09 PM] Luthier#1578 ya i agree [18-May-20 08:09 PM] Luthier#1578 just one thing i wanted to say tho [18-May-20 08:10 PM] Luthier#1578 and this involves the holistic view on lower tiers and their ability to cheese [18-May-20 08:10 PM] Luthier#1578 there was a post written on this earlier but it was about drought in lower tiers [18-May-20 08:10 PM] Luthier#1578 like its not only LC that has this issue [18-May-20 08:10 PM] Coconut#8762 levi did you put the council minutes up yet [18-May-20 08:10 PM] Luthier#1578 legit every single lower tier other than like PU has this problem [18-May-20 08:10 PM] Coconut#8762 irrelevant that other tiers are having an issue with sun [18-May-20 08:10 PM] Luthier#1578 i think its important to realize that once DLC comes in and LC open is running up [18-May-20 08:11 PM] Luthier#1578 almost everyone will be looking to sun [18-May-20 08:11 PM] Luthier#1578 to run rampant through LC open [18-May-20 08:11 PM] Luthier#1578 and i want ot limit that as much as possible if i can [18-May-20 08:11 PM] Luthier#1578 i think sun will def be busted, esp if DLC comes in with more abusers [18-May-20 08:11 PM] levi#6206 i did not coco [redacted] [18-May-20 08:11 PM] levi#6206 wanted a more clear cut summary as to what our indiv stances are [18-May-20 08:11 PM] levi#6206 atm [redacted] [18-May-20 09:51 PM] Serene Grace#5243 1. Heat Rock 2. Bulbasaur 3. Chlorophyll [18-May-20 09:56 PM] Serene Grace#5243 i think chlorophyll has too much collateral like ive thought about using 4th move sunny day on bulky oddish before [18-May-20 09:56 PM] Serene Grace#5243 and now oddish cant check stuff like say sunny day ponyta [18-May-20 09:57 PM] Serene Grace#5243 self setters are cool too and not broken [18-May-20 09:58 PM] Serene Grace#5243 sunny day 3 attack pokemon for example [18-May-20 09:58 PM] Serene Grace#5243 yes it gets the job done, but its way too broad and gets rid of things unneccesarily [18-May-20 10:04 PM] levi#6206 er [18-May-20 10:04 PM] levi#6206 do you think bulbas collateral is worse than heat rock's [18-May-20 10:06 PM] Coconut#8762 3/5/3 with just kingler. [18-May-20 10:06 PM] levi#6206 or do you think cherry just has a chance to be broken [18-May-20 10:06 PM] Coconut#8762 top vote [18-May-20 10:08 PM] Serene Grace#5243 whats the 3 5 3 [18-May-20 10:08 PM] Serene Grace#5243 like bulba has 5 votes? [18-May-20 10:09 PM] Coconut#8762 chloro has the most votes. [18-May-20 10:09 PM] Coconut#8762 heat rock and bulba both have 3. [18-May-20 10:09 PM] Coconut#8762 bulba has the most 3rd options [18-May-20 10:10 PM] levi#6206 ninja serene [18-May-20 10:10 PM] levi#6206 who else put heat rock 1 [18-May-20 10:10 PM] Coconut#8762 I did [18-May-20 10:11 PM] Coconut#8762 I'm willing to change my vote if there's a significant amount of people outside of the council post in favor of one thing [18-May-20 10:11 PM] Coconut#8762 but right now the metagame thread favors heat rock. [18-May-20 10:12 PM] BurntZebra#8147 to me, heat rock goes against tiering philosophy the most [18-May-20 10:15 PM] levi#6206 yea lets not give our formal votes now i think [18-May-20 10:15 PM] levi#6206 i mean we can give them but i want to change mine too maybe [18-May-20 10:16 PM] levi#6206 or at least leave room to, i think im right tho [18-May-20 10:16 PM] Serene Grace#5243 are we doing ranked choice voting [18-May-20 10:16 PM] Serene Grace#5243 the one with instant runoff [18-May-20 10:16 PM] Coconut#8762 no [18-May-20 10:17 PM] Coconut#8762 but ranked choices is being heavily influenced in the decision [18-May-20 10:17 PM] Serene Grace#5243 what does that mean [18-May-20 10:17 PM] Serene Grace#5243 if something has a lot of #2 options does it become more valuable [18-May-20 10:18 PM] levi#6206 i feel like outside of serene there was a pretty clear divide between cherry sun being suspect-worthy and it not being so [18-May-20 10:18 PM] Ninja#8225 can we just do like you get 1/2/3 points [18-May-20 10:18 PM] Ninja#8225 and lowest/highest wins [18-May-20 10:18 PM] levi#6206 so i dont think ranked choice rlly makes sense [18-May-20 10:19 PM] levi#6206 like if you think cherry sun isnt immediately suspect worthy then suspecting bulba makes the most sense, if chloro sweepers as a whole are an issue then its just whichever between heat rock and chloro you think preserves more stuff [18-May-20 10:19 PM] levi#6206 basically heat rock/chloro r way closer to each other than bulba is [18-May-20 10:20 PM] Ninja#8225 everyone except Zebra and Serene have Bulba either first or last I think [18-May-20 10:20 PM] levi#6206 and luthier, he said he was 2>3>1 even tho the pb says o.w [18-May-20 10:20 PM] levi#6206 @Luthier [18-May-20 10:21 PM] Luthier#1578 i changed back [18-May-20 10:21 PM] Luthier#1578 i thought more about it [18-May-20 10:21 PM] levi#6206 but luthier/zebra r in the same boat as well i believe? they do think cherry sun is problematic but heat rock's just worse than chloro [18-May-20 10:21 PM] levi#6206 ok i see [18-May-20 10:22 PM] levi#6206 @Serene Grace do u disagree w this [18-May-20 10:23 PM] Serene Grace#5243 No comment on whether cherubi sun is problematic, i think its too speculative [18-May-20 10:24 PM] levi#6206 fine [18-May-20 10:24 PM] levi#6206 ill add a "for the most part" in front of the summary [18-May-20 10:24 PM] Ninja#8225 I’d rather just do Chlorophyll or Heat Rock because I think it definitely deals with the issue so we don’t need to revisit it [18-May-20 10:25 PM] Ninja#8225 I might change to Chlorophyll #1 [18-May-20 10:26 PM] Serene Grace#5243 clhlorophpyll ban bad [18-May-20 10:26 PM] Serene Grace#5243 kills all the self setters [18-May-20 10:26 PM] Serene Grace#5243 and other stuff [18-May-20 10:26 PM] Serene Grace#5243 when heat rock gets rid of the issue anyways [18-May-20 10:27 PM] Ninja#8225 I think Heat Rock would get rid of it but [18-May-20 10:27 PM] Ninja#8225 Chlorophyll is the only one that guarantees it