[09-Apr-20 10:22 AM] jake#8907
how are we feeling about ruff

[09-Apr-20 10:22 AM] jake#8907
good? bad? ready to suspect? no?

[09-Apr-20 10:22 AM] jake#8907
what do u guys think

[09-Apr-20 10:23 AM] jake#8907
@Council and particularly d0ka since iirc you were strongest proponent of waiting

[09-Apr-20 10:25 AM] hongli#4483
i'd be fine with doing it now

[09-Apr-20 10:26 AM] jake#8907
i am thinking abt posting tonight

[09-Apr-20 10:26 AM] levi#6206
How long into lcpl will this drag

[09-Apr-20 10:27 AM] levi#6206
Can we have it over for week 2

[09-Apr-20 10:28 AM] Serene Grace#5243
seems unlikely

[09-Apr-20 10:28 AM] Serene Grace#5243
unless a 9 day suspect

[09-Apr-20 10:30 AM] Ninja#8225
well it could be 2 weekends still

[09-Apr-20 10:30 AM] Ninja#8225
if it was rn

[09-Apr-20 10:31 AM] Serene Grace#5243
but to get all the votes in time

[09-Apr-20 10:31 AM] Serene Grace#5243
would be tough to ban before week 2

[09-Apr-20 10:31 AM] jake#8907
yeah it's unlikely

[09-Apr-20 10:31 AM] levi#6206
That’s rlly annoying

[09-Apr-20 10:31 AM] jake#8907
i should have probably pushed earlier this week to make that happen

[09-Apr-20 10:31 AM] jake#8907
genuinely sorry about that, didn't think about the precise timing

[09-Apr-20 10:32 AM] levi#6206
Is a 9 day suspect doable?

[09-Apr-20 10:32 AM] LilyAC#7887
personally i would prefer to see how the meta develops in LCPL before suspecting

[09-Apr-20 10:32 AM] levi#6206
I guess at the end of the day there’s room for gentlemans agreements since this’ll prob end on a Monday

[09-Apr-20 10:32 AM] levi#6206
If we do 10

[09-Apr-20 10:35 AM] jake#8907
i dont think this should be the entire reason why we should suspect now

[09-Apr-20 10:35 AM] jake#8907
but i think waiting to suspect until lcpl development means that we made the wrong decision with cutiefly

[09-Apr-20 10:36 AM] jake#8907
we would have had time to complete a cutiefly suspect before the start of this week 1

[09-Apr-20 10:36 AM] jake#8907
my understanding is that the general consensus was that ruff needed to be looked at sooner rather than later for the health of the meta

[09-Apr-20 10:36 AM] levi#6206
Would anybody hold it against us?

[09-Apr-20 10:37 AM] levi#6206
On qbing cutie

[09-Apr-20 10:37 AM] jake#8907
dont know the answer to that one

[09-Apr-20 10:37 AM] jake#8907
probably not but i am not a fan of making a habit out of that

[09-Apr-20 10:37 AM] levi#6206
My immediate impression is no tbh

[09-Apr-20 10:38 AM] levi#6206
We just made the popular decision

[09-Apr-20 10:38 AM] jake#8907
and i still think the right decision is to move forward w ruff now

[09-Apr-20 10:38 AM] jake#8907
but i wanna hear from everyone and all that

[09-Apr-20 10:39 AM] starmaster#8286
Id wait for lcpl too tbh

[09-Apr-20 10:40 AM] starmaster#8286
For me the cutiefly decision was just cuz

[09-Apr-20 10:40 AM] starmaster#8286
14-0 and literally 0 public opposition

[09-Apr-20 10:40 AM] starmaster#8286
so why waste time

[09-Apr-20 10:40 AM] starmaster#8286
And make ppl ladder and let cutie ruin a week of circuit tours

[09-Apr-20 10:40 AM] levi#6206
I guess it was slightly worse process wise

[09-Apr-20 10:41 AM] jake#8907
yea we def shouldn't be making decisions on that mindset

[09-Apr-20 10:42 AM] jake#8907
its a waste of time but its important for clarity of our tiering process and not just being a collective group of "important ppl" that make changes according to our whims

[09-Apr-20 10:42 AM] jake#8907
i know there was general public support

[09-Apr-20 10:42 AM] hongli#4483
yea i was under the impression that we wanted a qb for qt because of the sense of urgency of dealing w ruff

[09-Apr-20 10:42 AM] starmaster#8286
well I think giving people a week to voice any opposition whatsoever is enough but ig

[09-Apr-20 10:42 AM] jake#8907
but it is definitely the urgency that enabled the decision

[09-Apr-20 10:43 AM] Ninja#8225
ye i agree w star

[09-Apr-20 10:43 AM] jake#8907
otherwise we should always be adhering to it in a case like cutiefly

[09-Apr-20 10:43 AM] Serene Grace#5243
agree with jake

[09-Apr-20 10:43 AM] Serene Grace#5243
also agree suspect rufflet now

[09-Apr-20 10:46 AM] levi#6206
It opened up the possibility for an earlier ruff suspect even if we didn’t take it

[09-Apr-20 10:48 AM] levi#6206
I agree that we shouldn’t doing it regularly and it was prob a mistake in hindsight if we don’t suspect ruff, but idt it was a misplay in that it was fully justifiable

[09-Apr-20 11:19 AM] BurntZebra#8147
i still dont really know what the meta looks like without cutiefly

[09-Apr-20 11:20 AM] BurntZebra#8147
i guess ssnl/ladder tour is going on

[09-Apr-20 11:20 AM] BurntZebra#8147
so theres some amount of development

[09-Apr-20 11:24 AM] jake#8907
there will also be two weeks of games played

[09-Apr-20 11:26 AM] BurntZebra#8147
personally i have no problem with rufflet being banned at like any point in lcpl

[09-Apr-20 11:26 AM] BurntZebra#8147
maybe a bit opposed like week 6/7 and on

[09-Apr-20 11:57 AM] levi#6206
im anti-lcpl disruption pretty much as strongly as feasible

[09-Apr-20 11:57 AM] levi#6206
i think its much more important for our community than any one tiering decision could be

[09-Apr-20 11:58 AM] levi#6206
im kind of willing to accept that a suspect might not be as bad for lcpl as im imagining but i still think it'd be rlly rlly bad

[09-Apr-20 11:59 AM] levi#6206
at minimum it's way too much pokemon to force onto everyone in those two wks

[09-Apr-20 01:19 PM] levi#6206
I’ll post the next council minutes whenever this is decided

[09-Apr-20 01:32 PM] Kingler#6931
id prefer holding off for a bit

[09-Apr-20 01:32 PM] Kingler#6931
a week or 2

[09-Apr-20 03:19 PM] Pablo#5523
Same

[09-Apr-20 03:19 PM] Pablo#5523
Havent seen much yet

[09-Apr-20 03:26 PM] starmaster#8286
so

[09-Apr-20 03:26 PM] starmaster#8286
me pablo kingler lily

[09-Apr-20 03:26 PM] starmaster#8286
all want to hold off

[09-Apr-20 03:26 PM] starmaster#8286
any1 else?

[09-Apr-20 03:33 PM] Luthier#1578
i think this was not managed timely

[09-Apr-20 03:33 PM] Luthier#1578
like i feel the qt ban shouldve been done earlier

[09-Apr-20 03:33 PM] Luthier#1578
so we coudlve observed the meta for longer

[09-Apr-20 03:34 PM] Luthier#1578
to make a decision prior to LCPL starting

[09-Apr-20 03:34 PM] Luthier#1578
but ya i think we should hold off a bit before coming to a conclusion, but i still think ruff is stupid rn

[09-Apr-20 03:38 PM] jake#8907
i mean

[09-Apr-20 03:39 PM] jake#8907
duh it was not managed in a timely manner

[09-Apr-20 03:40 PM] jake#8907
otherwise we would have done two normal suspects

[09-Apr-20 03:44 PM] jake#8907
i don't think waiting to suspect a relatively obvious suspect is beneficial for the tournament

[09-Apr-20 03:45 PM] jake#8907
i think playing an unbalanced metagame throughout the tournament is going to be less beneficial than the impact of a suspect test

[09-Apr-20 03:45 PM] jake#8907
especially if half of said test is still before the tournament

[09-Apr-20 03:46 PM] jake#8907
err

[09-Apr-20 03:46 PM] jake#8907
i used the wrong word but you know what i mean re: unbalanced meta

[09-Apr-20 03:46 PM] LilyAC#7887
i wouldnt call this relatively obvious, i still have no idea what i'd vote

[09-Apr-20 03:46 PM] jake#8907
i dont mean outcome

[09-Apr-20 03:47 PM] LilyAC#7887
its maybe relatively obvious that we will want to suspect rufflet yes

[09-Apr-20 03:47 PM] jake#8907
i mean the question of a suspect

[09-Apr-20 03:47 PM] LilyAC#7887
but its not relatively obvious whether its banworthy or not so how can you expect people to vote

[09-Apr-20 03:47 PM] jake#8907
the potential outcome doesnt inform this decision

[09-Apr-20 03:47 PM] jake#8907
what do you mean

[09-Apr-20 03:48 PM] jake#8907
i think many suspects are not objectively clear about whether or not they are banworthy

[09-Apr-20 03:48 PM] jake#8907
that's why we want people to discuss and form their opinion

[09-Apr-20 03:49 PM] LilyAC#7887
i mean the reason its unclear is bc theres a lack of information

[09-Apr-20 03:49 PM] LilyAC#7887
not enough games

[09-Apr-20 03:49 PM] LilyAC#7887
imo

[09-Apr-20 03:49 PM] LilyAC#7887
which should never be the case

[09-Apr-20 03:51 PM] LilyAC#7887
like ive seen enough games to know that rufflet is borderline and should probably be suspected, but not enough games to know whether its banworthy or not, and we need to have seen enough games for both to be able to run a suspect test

[09-Apr-20 03:59 PM] jake#8907
i dont think the latter must necessarily be true in order to run a suspect test

[09-Apr-20 04:00 PM] jake#8907
part of the point of the test is to help facilitate an opportunity for people to determine their opinions

[09-Apr-20 04:00 PM] levi#6206
What’s wrong w using the suspect to form your opinion

[09-Apr-20 04:00 PM] levi#6206
Ya

[09-Apr-20 04:00 PM] jake#8907
for example, looking at tiers that have re-tested pokemon

[09-Apr-20 04:01 PM] jake#8907
you literally couldn't be able to know whether or not it is banworthy until the test in those cases

[09-Apr-20 04:01 PM] levi#6206
it’s the idea behind when we used to do tests w.o the suspected mon too (even though those are bad)

[09-Apr-20 04:02 PM] jake#8907
i know our suspect tests have become rote in practice and a lot of folks (esp us on council) already have strong opinions on whether or not things should go

[09-Apr-20 04:02 PM] jake#8907
but it's part of the point

[09-Apr-20 04:04 PM] jake#8907
the suspect test should be our opportunity to form the opinion

[09-Apr-20 04:04 PM] jake#8907
not just the qualification test

[09-Apr-20 04:13 PM] LilyAC#7887
suspects can help form a decision via discussion yeah, but no amount of discussion solves the issue of a lack of games

[09-Apr-20 04:16 PM] jake#8907
the ladder, week 1 of lcpl?

[09-Apr-20 04:16 PM] LilyAC#7887
yea i wouldnt consider that enough

[09-Apr-20 04:16 PM] LilyAC#7887
maybe if the ladder had higher level games

[09-Apr-20 04:17 PM] Coconut#8762
I think rufflet is staying for LCPL

[09-Apr-20 04:17 PM] levi#6206
I guess we kind of know what rufflet does anyways

[09-Apr-20 04:18 PM] levi#6206
I’m preferring we do a suspect over week 1 since there’s still a good amt of time to ladder before the tour

[09-Apr-20 04:18 PM] levi#6206
But only if merritt agrees that week 2 can allow post ruff in a significant way

[09-Apr-20 04:18 PM] levi#6206
2 weeks of a dead meta seems p unideal

[09-Apr-20 04:19 PM] Coconut#8762
I don't see merritt and nineage liking that option

[09-Apr-20 04:19 PM] Coconut#8762
I'm assuming they'd convene about it before reaching a decision

[09-Apr-20 04:45 PM] hongli#4483
btw

[09-Apr-20 04:45 PM] hongli#4483
aren't we gonna have weeks of dead meta anyways

[09-Apr-20 04:46 PM] hongli#4483
since dlc is dropping

[09-Apr-20 04:46 PM] hongli#4483
over the summer or smth

[09-Apr-20 04:48 PM] levi#6206
Do we have a date?

[09-Apr-20 04:48 PM] hongli#4483
sometime in june

[09-Apr-20 04:48 PM] hongli#4483
so ig it wouldn't be till end of the tour

[09-Apr-20 05:32 PM] jake#8907
>2 weeks of a dead meta seems p unideal

idg that logic

[09-Apr-20 05:32 PM] jake#8907
its alive in w1 if so

[09-Apr-20 05:32 PM] jake#8907
only w2 would be dead

[09-Apr-20 05:32 PM] jake#8907
if we plan to suspect

[09-Apr-20 05:34 PM] jake#8907
and wait five or seven or however many weeks

[09-Apr-20 05:34 PM] jake#8907
that seems equally damning

[09-Apr-20 05:34 PM] jake#8907
sry internet issues

[09-Apr-20 09:10 PM] hongli#4483
what was

[09-Apr-20 09:11 PM] hongli#4483
the official numbers we needed to do a suspect test

[09-Apr-20 09:11 PM] hongli#4483
was it 50%+1

[09-Apr-20 09:11 PM] hongli#4483
we should do a vote

[09-Apr-20 09:12 PM] hongli#4483
2. If at least 5/11 council members believe that the topic is banworthy/unbanworthy OR are unsure (that is, there is no supermajority disagreement with this nomination), then the topic is put through a suspect test. A thread for discussion on the topic will be set up.

[09-Apr-20 09:12 PM] hongli#4483
this was from a while back and council numbers have since changed but

[09-Apr-20 09:13 PM] hongli#4483
i assume that's just if 50%+1 disagree w the suspect then it doesn't go through

[09-Apr-20 09:13 PM] hongli#4483
so w 14 of us it'd be 8 to disagree

[09-Apr-20 09:27 PM] levi#6206
Ya

[09-Apr-20 09:27 PM] levi#6206
I can update the numbers later too

[09-Apr-20 09:27 PM] levi#6206
Should prob have given that as a %

[09-Apr-20 09:33 PM] hongli#4483
i vote we put the suspect up tn like jake was saying

[09-Apr-20 09:35 PM] levi#6206
Support

[09-Apr-20 09:35 PM] levi#6206
Merritt proposed just locking ss lc out for Monday btw

[09-Apr-20 09:36 PM] brewfasa#4532
i also support suspect as early as possible

[09-Apr-20 09:37 PM] Serene Grace#5243
I vote for 10 day suspect and locking ss lc out for that Monday
Two weeks of lcpl, ladder, and other forum tours are enough to make an educated decision

[09-Apr-20 09:37 PM] Ninja#8225
that sounds good

[09-Apr-20 09:38 PM] Coconut#8762
I do not have the time to write another ban-post tonight, I'm most likely heading off to bed soonish

[09-Apr-20 09:39 PM] Coconut#8762
But if this is what a majority of the council wants to do, I think we should move forward with it as quickly as possible

[09-Apr-20 09:45 PM] levi#6206
Including jake we have 6 right?

[09-Apr-20 09:46 PM] levi#6206
Does that count as a 7 coco

[09-Apr-20 09:49 PM] levi#6206
@Shrug

[09-Apr-20 09:50 PM] Shrug#7659
suspect it? im in favor

[09-Apr-20 09:50 PM] levi#6206
Okay we have 7

[09-Apr-20 09:50 PM] levi#6206
@jake whenever you can

[09-Apr-20 10:15 PM] jake#8907
i already have it written

[09-Apr-20 10:16 PM] jake#8907
give me just a bit and i'll put it up

[09-Apr-20 10:16 PM] jake#8907
probably up by 8

[09-Apr-20 10:16 PM] jake#8907
err 45 mins