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- [13-Feb-20 12:05 AM] levi#6206
- If veil is too much
- [13-Feb-20 12:05 AM] levi#6206
- Are we banning apix or the move
- [13-Feb-20 12:09 AM] levi#6206
- The move right?
- [13-Feb-20 12:09 AM] levi#6206
- It paired w hail is what forces the matchup issues
- [13-Feb-20 12:09 AM] Quote#9846
- that's incorrect
- [13-Feb-20 12:10 AM] Quote#9846
- specifically, the issue is having a fast aurora veil user with auto-hail
- [13-Feb-20 12:10 AM] Quote#9846
- we've had auto-hail with veil available since the start of the gen
- [13-Feb-20 12:10 AM] Quote#9846
- but
- [13-Feb-20 12:11 AM] BurntZebra#8147
- pix is the only veil user right now, right
- [13-Feb-20 12:11 AM] Quote#9846
- we didn't have an auto-hail setter with veil, and we didn't have an abuser like zigzagoon
- [13-Feb-20 12:11 AM] Quote#9846
- no
- [13-Feb-20 12:11 AM] Quote#9846
- bergmite and vanillite can both use veil
- [13-Feb-20 12:11 AM] Quote#9846
- but they're both trash
- [13-Feb-20 12:11 AM] BurntZebra#8147
- oh oops i didnt scroll down on bulbapedia
- [13-Feb-20 12:11 AM] Quote#9846
- and we've had snover as auto-hail
- [13-Feb-20 12:11 AM] BurntZebra#8147
- was only looking at level up and tm moves
- [13-Feb-20 12:12 AM] levi#6206
- The release of new and very powerful abusers like ziggy and roost rufflet opens the door to veils becoming even more matchupy than it was before
- [13-Feb-20 12:12 AM] levi#6206
- Before their introduction every single offensive mon had its hard check
- [13-Feb-20 12:12 AM] BurntZebra#8147
- is roost rufflet really a veil abuser
- [13-Feb-20 12:12 AM] levi#6206
- The same reason why dedicated webs wasn’t amazing
- [13-Feb-20 12:13 AM] Quote#9846
- dedicated webs is different though because that's a move that doesn't have a pre-requisite on the field
- [13-Feb-20 12:13 AM] levi#6206
- And mostly carried on cutie itself already being a fantastic mon
- [13-Feb-20 12:13 AM] levi#6206
- I’m not comparing veils and webs as strategies
- [13-Feb-20 12:14 AM] levi#6206
- I’m just explaining why the meta changes might make veils as a whole more threatening
- [13-Feb-20 12:14 AM] levi#6206
- Or at least threatening enough for it to be a real concern as a pure matchup fish strat
- [13-Feb-20 12:15 AM] levi#6206
- There’s an even easier justification actually, it’s that noone cared to use veils until apix brought it to the limelight
- [13-Feb-20 12:15 AM] levi#6206
- It’s always been a pure matchup fishing strat
- [13-Feb-20 12:15 AM] Quote#9846
- ok, but we don't ban things because of matchup fishing
- [13-Feb-20 12:16 AM] Shrug#7659
- why not
- [13-Feb-20 12:16 AM] levi#6206
- We do
- [13-Feb-20 12:16 AM] levi#6206
- Baton pass
- [13-Feb-20 12:16 AM] BurntZebra#8147
- matchup fishing is a relative term
- [13-Feb-20 12:16 AM] BurntZebra#8147
- gothita was a matchup fish if you wanna think about it like that
- [13-Feb-20 12:16 AM] levi#6206
- Matchup fishing is bannable if it generally removes skill from the equation
- [13-Feb-20 12:17 AM] levi#6206
- Stag generally fails to do that in offensive metas bc it carries a cost
- [13-Feb-20 12:18 AM] Quote#9846
- If veils forces a very limited scope of counterplay, then sure we can be in favour of removing it, but I think there's more to consider here
- [13-Feb-20 12:19 AM] Quote#9846
- We have to think about the setters as well as the abusers
- [13-Feb-20 12:19 AM] BurntZebra#8147
- is it a sun situation where if we would have to ban more than one abuser, then we'd rather ban the setter
- [13-Feb-20 12:20 AM] Quote#9846
- do we think a ton of mons are going to be problems under veil? Does getting rid of a single potent abuser solve the issue? Does banning the best setter limit the strategy enough to introduce a proper opportunity cost?
- [13-Feb-20 12:20 AM] BurntZebra#8147
- i mean there are a lot of abusers
- [13-Feb-20 12:20 AM] BurntZebra#8147
- and its hard to tell which ones would be too good
- [13-Feb-20 12:20 AM] Quote#9846
- Which is why we can't rush into this
- [13-Feb-20 12:21 AM] BurntZebra#8147
- if the answer is that we would need to ban more than one mon to make veils balanced
- [13-Feb-20 12:21 AM] levi#6206
- it's a little different from sun because we could solve sun by banning one mon either way
- [13-Feb-20 12:21 AM] BurntZebra#8147
- is that worth it still
- [13-Feb-20 12:21 AM] BurntZebra#8147
- how do you solve sun by not banning vulpix but banning one mon now
- [13-Feb-20 12:21 AM] Quote#9846
- I think if multiple mons make it an issue, then no, it's not worth keeping.
- [13-Feb-20 12:21 AM] BurntZebra#8147
- cherubi was the answer before
- [13-Feb-20 12:21 AM] BurntZebra#8147
- but now theres bulbasaur
- [13-Feb-20 12:21 AM] levi#6206
- unless there's only a single broken abuser of veils, which i would be shocked of, then i was just suggesting the move versus apix the mon
- [13-Feb-20 12:21 AM] levi#6206
- well banning cherry isn't a solution anymore yeah
- [13-Feb-20 12:22 AM] Quote#9846
- just think of it this way
- [13-Feb-20 12:22 AM] Quote#9846
- would veil still be good if you had to use bergmite and snover in the team?
- [13-Feb-20 12:22 AM] levi#6206
- it wouldn't be good but i think it would still be uncompetitive
- [13-Feb-20 12:22 AM] levi#6206
- is what i mean to say
- [13-Feb-20 12:22 AM] Shrug#7659
- i tried it w the ice cream it sucks
- [13-Feb-20 12:22 AM] levi#6206
- ala baton pass
- [13-Feb-20 12:23 AM] Quote#9846
- That argument feels flawed to me.
- [13-Feb-20 12:24 AM] BurntZebra#8147
- is preserving alola pix that important
- [13-Feb-20 12:24 AM] BurntZebra#8147
- to make this weird exception
- [13-Feb-20 12:24 AM] Quote#9846
- No, it's not, but I don't consider that relevant.
- [13-Feb-20 12:24 AM] BurntZebra#8147
- like if we're gonna make exceptions, the exceptions should be made on stuff like porygon in gen 7
- [13-Feb-20 12:24 AM] Serene Grace#5243
- if broken then ban vulpix-alola
- [13-Feb-20 12:25 AM] Quote#9846
- What I consider relevant is the convenience of alola-pix vs. the overall potency of veil
- [13-Feb-20 12:25 AM] levi#6206
- porygon should have been freed!!!
- [13-Feb-20 12:26 AM] Quote#9846
- and I simply don't see how a team forced to use BERGMITE and SNOVER is going to be that great. If you want to argue "we shouldn't need to have defog timburr on every team" I can somewhat understand that but I don't think it's that simple.
- [13-Feb-20 12:26 AM] levi#6206
- the bp comparison is bad actually bc there were multiple mons (torch and foo) that both met the minimum level of viability and were uncompetitive
- [13-Feb-20 12:26 AM] levi#6206
- veils only does that w apix
- [13-Feb-20 12:26 AM] levi#6206
- bergmite veils is still uncompetitive but it's more in line w swagger probably
- [13-Feb-20 12:27 AM] Quote#9846
- I get where you're coming from in that veil is pretty fuckin degenerate
- [13-Feb-20 12:27 AM] BurntZebra#8147
- well heres one thing
- [13-Feb-20 12:27 AM] BurntZebra#8147
- if we did want to deal with gen 7
- [13-Feb-20 12:27 AM] BurntZebra#8147
- would we be allowed to ban webs
- [13-Feb-20 12:27 AM] BurntZebra#8147
- or not because theres some like E tier web user existing
- [13-Feb-20 12:27 AM] Quote#9846
- but I personally don't favour banning a degenerate strat that forces your team to be dogshit in the process
- [13-Feb-20 12:27 AM] levi#6206
- in web's case it wouldnt really lose viability at all going from skit to dewp
- [13-Feb-20 12:28 AM] BurntZebra#8147
- but then you get to like sewaddle
- [13-Feb-20 12:28 AM] BurntZebra#8147
- or w/e
- [13-Feb-20 12:28 AM] levi#6206
- and only a v minimal amount going from dewp to spinarak
- [13-Feb-20 12:28 AM] levi#6206
- ok i'm pro apix ban actually
- [13-Feb-20 12:28 AM] levi#6206
- i just wanted to bring it up
- [13-Feb-20 12:28 AM] Quote#9846
- sjgsdfgjskldfgjsdfgjkld
- [13-Feb-20 12:28 AM] Quote#9846
- motherfucker
- [13-Feb-20 12:28 AM] Quote#9846
- I get it though
- [13-Feb-20 12:29 AM] Quote#9846
- covering our bases is important
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