[13-Feb-20 12:05 AM] levi#6206
If veil is too much

[13-Feb-20 12:05 AM] levi#6206
Are we banning apix or the move

[13-Feb-20 12:09 AM] levi#6206
The move right?

[13-Feb-20 12:09 AM] levi#6206
It paired w hail is what forces the matchup issues

[13-Feb-20 12:09 AM] Quote#9846
that's incorrect

[13-Feb-20 12:10 AM] Quote#9846
specifically, the issue is having a fast aurora veil user with auto-hail

[13-Feb-20 12:10 AM] Quote#9846
we've had auto-hail with veil available since the start of the gen

[13-Feb-20 12:10 AM] Quote#9846
but

[13-Feb-20 12:11 AM] BurntZebra#8147
pix is the only veil user right now, right

[13-Feb-20 12:11 AM] Quote#9846
we didn't have an auto-hail setter with veil, and we didn't have an abuser like zigzagoon

[13-Feb-20 12:11 AM] Quote#9846
no

[13-Feb-20 12:11 AM] Quote#9846
bergmite and vanillite can both use veil

[13-Feb-20 12:11 AM] Quote#9846
but they're both trash

[13-Feb-20 12:11 AM] BurntZebra#8147
oh oops i didnt scroll down on bulbapedia

[13-Feb-20 12:11 AM] Quote#9846
and we've had snover as auto-hail

[13-Feb-20 12:11 AM] BurntZebra#8147
was only looking at level up and tm moves

[13-Feb-20 12:12 AM] levi#6206
The release of new and very powerful abusers like ziggy and roost rufflet opens the door to veils becoming even more matchupy than it was before

[13-Feb-20 12:12 AM] levi#6206
Before their introduction every single offensive mon had its hard check

[13-Feb-20 12:12 AM] BurntZebra#8147
is roost rufflet really a veil abuser

[13-Feb-20 12:12 AM] levi#6206
The same reason why dedicated webs wasn’t amazing

[13-Feb-20 12:13 AM] Quote#9846
dedicated webs is different though because that's a move that doesn't have a pre-requisite on the field

[13-Feb-20 12:13 AM] levi#6206
And mostly carried on cutie itself already being a fantastic mon

[13-Feb-20 12:13 AM] levi#6206
I’m not comparing veils and webs as strategies

[13-Feb-20 12:14 AM] levi#6206
I’m just explaining why the meta changes might make veils as a whole more threatening

[13-Feb-20 12:14 AM] levi#6206
Or at least threatening enough for it to be a real concern as a pure matchup fish strat

[13-Feb-20 12:15 AM] levi#6206
There’s an even easier justification actually, it’s that noone cared to use veils until apix brought it to the limelight

[13-Feb-20 12:15 AM] levi#6206
It’s always been a pure matchup fishing strat

[13-Feb-20 12:15 AM] Quote#9846
ok, but we don't ban things because of matchup fishing

[13-Feb-20 12:16 AM] Shrug#7659
why not

[13-Feb-20 12:16 AM] levi#6206
We do

[13-Feb-20 12:16 AM] levi#6206
Baton pass

[13-Feb-20 12:16 AM] BurntZebra#8147
matchup fishing is a relative term

[13-Feb-20 12:16 AM] BurntZebra#8147
gothita was a matchup fish if you wanna think about it like that

[13-Feb-20 12:16 AM] levi#6206
Matchup fishing is bannable if it generally removes skill from the equation

[13-Feb-20 12:17 AM] levi#6206
Stag generally fails to do that in offensive metas bc it carries a cost

[13-Feb-20 12:18 AM] Quote#9846
If veils forces a very limited scope of counterplay, then sure we can be in favour of removing it, but I think there's more to consider here

[13-Feb-20 12:19 AM] Quote#9846
We have to think about the setters as well as the abusers

[13-Feb-20 12:19 AM] BurntZebra#8147
is it a sun situation where if we would have to ban more than one abuser, then we'd rather ban the setter

[13-Feb-20 12:20 AM] Quote#9846
do we think a ton of mons are going to be problems under veil? Does getting rid of a single potent abuser solve the issue? Does banning the best setter limit the strategy enough to introduce a proper opportunity cost?

[13-Feb-20 12:20 AM] BurntZebra#8147
i mean there are a lot of abusers

[13-Feb-20 12:20 AM] BurntZebra#8147
and its hard to tell which ones would be too good

[13-Feb-20 12:20 AM] Quote#9846
Which is why we can't rush into this

[13-Feb-20 12:21 AM] BurntZebra#8147
if the answer is that we would need to ban more than one mon to make veils balanced

[13-Feb-20 12:21 AM] levi#6206
it's a little different from sun because we could solve sun by banning one mon either way

[13-Feb-20 12:21 AM] BurntZebra#8147
is that worth it still

[13-Feb-20 12:21 AM] BurntZebra#8147
how do you solve sun by not banning vulpix but banning one mon now

[13-Feb-20 12:21 AM] Quote#9846
I think if multiple mons make it an issue, then no, it's not worth keeping.

[13-Feb-20 12:21 AM] BurntZebra#8147
cherubi was the answer before

[13-Feb-20 12:21 AM] BurntZebra#8147
but now theres bulbasaur

[13-Feb-20 12:21 AM] levi#6206
unless there's only a single broken abuser of veils, which i would be shocked of, then i was just suggesting the move versus apix the mon

[13-Feb-20 12:21 AM] levi#6206
well banning cherry isn't a solution anymore yeah

[13-Feb-20 12:22 AM] Quote#9846
just think of it this way

[13-Feb-20 12:22 AM] Quote#9846
would veil still be good if you had to use bergmite and snover in the team?

[13-Feb-20 12:22 AM] levi#6206
it wouldn't be good but i think it would still be uncompetitive

[13-Feb-20 12:22 AM] levi#6206
is what i mean to say

[13-Feb-20 12:22 AM] Shrug#7659
i tried it w the ice cream it sucks

[13-Feb-20 12:22 AM] levi#6206
ala baton pass

[13-Feb-20 12:23 AM] Quote#9846
That argument feels flawed to me.

[13-Feb-20 12:24 AM] BurntZebra#8147
is preserving alola pix that important

[13-Feb-20 12:24 AM] BurntZebra#8147
to make this weird exception

[13-Feb-20 12:24 AM] Quote#9846
No, it's not, but I don't consider that relevant.

[13-Feb-20 12:24 AM] BurntZebra#8147
like if we're gonna make exceptions, the exceptions should be made on stuff like porygon in gen 7

[13-Feb-20 12:24 AM] Serene Grace#5243
if broken then ban vulpix-alola

[13-Feb-20 12:25 AM] Quote#9846
What I consider relevant is the convenience of alola-pix vs. the overall potency of veil

[13-Feb-20 12:25 AM] levi#6206
porygon should have been freed!!!

[13-Feb-20 12:26 AM] Quote#9846
and I simply don't see how a team forced to use BERGMITE and SNOVER is going to be that great. If you want to argue "we shouldn't need to have defog timburr on every team" I can somewhat understand that but I don't think it's that simple.

[13-Feb-20 12:26 AM] levi#6206
the bp comparison is bad actually bc there were multiple mons (torch and foo) that both met the minimum level of viability and were uncompetitive

[13-Feb-20 12:26 AM] levi#6206
veils only does that w apix

[13-Feb-20 12:26 AM] levi#6206
bergmite veils is still uncompetitive but it's more in line w swagger probably

[13-Feb-20 12:27 AM] Quote#9846
I get where you're coming from in that veil is pretty fuckin degenerate

[13-Feb-20 12:27 AM] BurntZebra#8147
well heres one thing

[13-Feb-20 12:27 AM] BurntZebra#8147
if we did want to deal with gen 7

[13-Feb-20 12:27 AM] BurntZebra#8147
would we be allowed to ban webs

[13-Feb-20 12:27 AM] BurntZebra#8147
or not because theres some like E tier web user existing

[13-Feb-20 12:27 AM] Quote#9846
but I personally don't favour banning a degenerate strat that forces your team to be dogshit in the process

[13-Feb-20 12:27 AM] levi#6206
in web's case it wouldnt really lose viability at all going from skit to dewp

[13-Feb-20 12:28 AM] BurntZebra#8147
but then you get to like sewaddle

[13-Feb-20 12:28 AM] BurntZebra#8147
or w/e

[13-Feb-20 12:28 AM] levi#6206
and only a v minimal amount going from dewp to spinarak

[13-Feb-20 12:28 AM] levi#6206
ok i'm pro apix ban actually

[13-Feb-20 12:28 AM] levi#6206
i just wanted to bring it up

[13-Feb-20 12:28 AM] Quote#9846
sjgsdfgjskldfgjsdfgjkld

[13-Feb-20 12:28 AM] Quote#9846
motherfucker

[13-Feb-20 12:28 AM] Quote#9846
I get it though

[13-Feb-20 12:29 AM] Quote#9846
covering our bases is important