Response 1 (Round 1)

# Response #1 (1/2)

## Before We Begin

I noticed something as I was reading your post, and I'd like to touch on it before I start mine. See, while you were comparing Evil Ernie's piercing resistance to Samurai Jack's, you said something I found very interesting:

>actually, come to think of it, where is his piercing resist?
>
>Oh yeah
>
>**There is none**
>
>All he has is scaling to bullets, whereas with Jack… [yeah](https://gfycat.com/defensiveoldfashionedcoypu).

We'll wait until later to go into the fact that the feat linked above isn't a piercing durability feat. (Jack is deflecting the bullets with a sword there, not tanking them or stopping them with his bare hands) No, right now we're going to discuss how this relates to something you said before that:

>This all depends on how you argue these feats. If you try to argue Uber Jason doing something as precise as cutting people as *faster than the human eye can discern*, he becomes [clearly over tier](https://imgur.com/a/vhU236h) (<-shown: Ult Spiderman feat where he's shown getting tagged by a bullet (from a very similar handgun, no less)). I ain't gonna OOT you for this because you haven’t even had the opportunity to argue your point, but for now, I’m gonna come to the conclusion that **Uber Jason’s speed is either massively over tier, or** [**non-existant**](https://pastebin.com/zuYPi6KW) (<- shown: Uber Jasons best non-FTE speed feat, where he cuts someone up before her pieces hit the ground.)

You seem to have dug yourself into a hole here. Your character has a feat (casually deflecting gatling gun bullets in rapid succession) that is quite far above what you've established to be the tier-setter's limitation. I sincerely hope that you have an explanation for that (no condescension intended, really), but I must admit that this is not a good look for you.

Of course, you could also just concede to the possibility that the tier-setter and the tier itself might be faster than what that low showing you posted suggests. (After all, we have many casual bullet-timers in this tourney, up to and including characters like Dante who have some of the most signature bullet-timing feats this side of Neo) But then I'd have to wonder if a high interpretation of Jason's FTE feats would be as far outside of the tier as you say.

Which, speaking of that...

>If you try to argue Uber Jason doing something as precise as cutting people as *faster than the human eye can discern*, he becomes [clearly over tier](https://imgur.com/a/vhU236h)

If that's out-of-tier, then what do you call [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsUoaM1YuX4&t=2m18s)? Seems to me that if my character is out-of-tier when taken at his high interpretation, then your character is out-of-tier when taken at his *middling* interpretation.

You can address this however you like. In the meantime, I'll be moving on to the meat and potatoes of my opening arguments.

## Mr. Green VS Uber Jason

I have quite a bit to say about this one, so let's not waste any words.

## What Is All of That Speed Going to Accomplish?

You seem to have built the overwhelming majority of your opener around the fact that your character is very fast. I believe you've put far too much faith and stock into that one stat. Reasons for why are as follows.

**You're Not Doing Enough Damage**

You plan to kill Uber Jason by *pounding* on him? I don't think so. Jason is durable enough to tank those hits *and* regenerative enough to buff out the damage.

* Jason has [fallen from orbit hard enough to leave a very sizable crater in the ground](https://imgur.com/a/tZBLZ) and gotten back up immediately. Mr. Green's best striking feats don't quite hit the same. Not to the point that there is a full tier difference, mind you, and I'm sure anyone else with such durability might *eventually* succumb when faced with multiple gang-style attacks from Mr. Green and his clones. But that just leads me to my next point, which is:
* Jason can [survive with his heart vaporized](https://pastebin.com/qdMfqq6Z) and regenerate from having multiple parts of his body (including the bulk of his head) [melted off by a laser](https://pastebin.com/d7ed5Znr). Mr. Green and his clones aren't strong enough to deal that kind of damage to Jason with fists alone, and they have so few other options (read: almost none) that I don't see them doing comparable damage with anything else either.

**TL;DR:** You can be as fast as you want. You don't have the options or the punching power necessary for it to matter.

**You Can't Last Long Enough**

Uber Jason was once subjected to [the most hostile planetary atmosphere you have ever seen](https://pastebin.com/bf77zRLe), an atmosphere which has a tendency to (among other things) disintegrate all organic matter that enters it. Jason [survived in this atmosphere without rest for two whole weeks](https://pastebin.com/NDY88m9P), his nanomachines (logically) fighting and adapting to the damage the whole time. As you'll see from the passages themselves, he's seen walking tall at the end of it, with no fatigue whatsoever.

Being undead (or something akin to it), Jason can walk around *normal* atmospheres without rest for a much longer stretch of time. But I'm not posting the above to demonstrate Jason's insomnia; I'm posting it to demonstrate Jason's superior stamina.

Mr. Green and his clones have never been seen fighting or doing much of anything strenuous for longer than a few minutes of cinematic time, and Shock More shows us that Mr. Green can eventually tire out if he's forced to exert himself, even when his clones have been doing most of the fighting beforehand. (see [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVA5BPCDras&t=3m21s), where you'll notice that he grows visibly fatigued over the course of the final 30 seconds of the fight and is eventually too worn out to dodge a *very* telegraphed piano-swing from Mr. Red) With that in mind, it's easy to conclude that Mr. Green and his clones are going to tucker themselves out trying to beat Jason to death with their bare hands, and that their speed will start to fail them once they've exhausted themselves.

**TL;DR:** Your character tires out fast and loses speed/agility once fatigued, while mine trucks through damage for weeks on end and suffers no physical debilitation from doing so. How fast your character can run, jump, punch, kick, backflip and do his homework won't matter once he is worn out and Jason is not.

**Mr. Green Does Not Take Hits Well**

Any hits from Jason are going to exacerbate the above issues very quickly, because Jason hits like a truck and Mr. Green tends to go down after a handful of hits from someone equal to him. We see that in Shock 2 and Shock More (the latter of which I have linked already), both of which end with him and his clones going down after taking a relatively small number of attacks.

**A Quick Loose End**

>[I really just want to talk around this singular speed feat](https://gfycat.com/potablechiefauklet). This feat shows Mr. Green clearly reacting to Mr. Red while he’s in his speed mode (here’s Mr. Reds [RT](https://www.reddit.com/r/respectthreads/comments/kj7p1u/respect_mr_red_shock/), here's a relevant speed [feat](https://gfycat.com/zanywebbedgourami))

Aha...

If you're arguing that Mr. Green can react to Mr. Red's speed mode while his own is activated, then of course he can. That's kind of the point.

IF, however, you are arguing that Mr. Green can briefly react to Mr. Red's speed mode while his own is *not* activated, then I'm afraid that's not a very sound claim at all. [This](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ff1nVfLnI0o&t=1m19s) is Mr. Red using his speed boost to dodge an attack and climb up to high ground before Mr. Green (with no speed boost active) can even realize what has happened. Indeed, the Shock series (especially the original three animations that Terkoiz made) is full of moments where both Mr. Green and Mr. Red use speed mode to perform whole combos before the other can react to them, all of which should supersede this one instance due to the consistency with which they happen.

And that matters quite a bit, because...

**All of Mr. Green's Good Speed Feats Are Done in Speed Mode**

This seems like a "duh" statement, but it's relevant, I promise. We can both most likely agree that Mr. Green's speed mode is *hilariously* faster than his base speed is. (We see as much visually, so this is inarguable.) This is important, because all of Mr. Green's in-tier speed feats come directly from this speed boost. Those feats are as follows:

* [Blitzing Mr. Red](https://gfycat.com/wildjitterydiamondbackrattlesnake), clearly using his speed boost to do so.
* [Blitzing Mr. Red again](https://gfycat.com/madeupregularchital) moments afterward. This time, he follows up by telling Mr. Red he's going to die "if u dun use it", which confirms that he is in fact using his speed mode to beat Mr. Red's ass.
* [Blitzing Mr. Red a third time](https://gfycat.com/grandhonestdutchshepherddog), after which he continues his above dialogue by *urging* Mr. Red to use his own speed boost because the fight is starting to get boring.
* A [clash of speed modes](https://gfycat.com/thoseinborngiraffe) in which the two of them move far faster than they are otherwise capable of.
* [Another blatant clash of speed modes](https://gfycat.com/potablechiefauklet) which shows them fighting so quickly that a collapsing floor appears to be moving in slow motion.

That's entirely it. No showings from the character's un-amped self come anywhere *close* to this level of speed.

Even worse, Mr. Green never stays in speed mode for longer than a few cinematic seconds at a time. He almost always uses it in very quick bursts, and even [the most prolonged use of it he ever managed](https://gfycat.com/thoseinborngiraffe) didn't last for an especially long while. Either he's actually incapable of using it for an extended amount of time, doesn't even *bother* to use it for extended amounts of time, or suffers from fatigue whenever he uses it for extended amounts of time. There's no real elaboration as to which of these three cases is the truth, but it doesn't matter. All three of them equal out to the same result.

**TL;DR:** Mr. Green's only speed feats that fall within this tier come from a speed boost that he has never maintained indefinitely. Uber Jason does not need to worry about being incapable of touching Mr. Green for the entire fight, because Mr. Green's super-speed is guaranteed not to last that long.

## Killing a Little Green Man (And His Little Green Friends)

**Your Character is Weaker, And It Shows**

You said before that "it doesn't really matter if Uber Jason has better durability or strength". Now that I've established that your speed won't be the all-powerful deciding factor that you say it is, I can get started tackling why you're wrong about that.

* The hardest hit that Mr. Green has ever gotten back up from is [this one](https://gfycat.com/pessimistictimelyborer). He also survived [this](https://gfycat.com/warpedamusedanemoneshrimp), but his energy began to peter out very shortly after that, so...
* Uber Jason once shoulder-rammed [a shuttle large enough to hold a 12-foot spacecraft with room left for over six people](https://pastebin.com/aA3Jk1Kv). He hit it so hard that it was [sent tumbling through the air with enough force to fragment it the moment it hit a solid surface](https://pastebin.com/0wvKVuEp).
   * A similar shoulder-ram [smashed fleshy Jason through a metal wall so thoroughly that it left a hole significantly larger than they were](https://imgur.com/a/dnzKi).
* Jason can also [smash combat androids with his bare hands](https://i.imgur.com/HoaVOL9.jpg).
* Jason's strength [completely shatters glass immune to most conventional weapons](https://pastebin.com/UVA81FHJ)
   * For reference, "most conventional weapons" in this case would consist of the aforementioned lasers powerful enough to vaporize flesh and metal, remote explosive charges that can do [this](https://gfycat.com/illinformedhandmadelhasaapso), and your typical military grenades and rockets.

Long story short, Jason is punching harder than Mr. Green is used to getting punched. He hits Mr. Green and/or a Mr. Green clone, Mr. Green and/or that Mr. Green clone proceed to hit the ground with the wind knocked out of them.

**Your Character Has Never Walked Off Piercing Damage**

Oh yes, I can go down this route too.

* Mr. Green has zero feats of surviving any slashing or piercing attacks. Actually, the one instance where one of those attacks was used on him (or at least his clones), the results were [not pretty](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsUoaM1YuX4&t=2m33s).
* Uber Jason can [shear straight through heavy steel](https://pastebin.com/JnEmyfeh), [cut right through metal combat androids](https://i.imgur.com/fFywcxf.jpg), and [slice through a thick, "impenetrable" door made from hyper-metals and steel](https://pastebin.com/gHbGrmft).
   * If I wanted to be a dick, I could try to scale those "impenetrable" hyper-metals to titanium. As it stands, I'm fine with saying they are stronger than steel and leaving it at that.

One machete slash is all it takes for Mr. Green's clones to go down. And since the clones don't exactly like to dodge when they're fighting as a group (See [here](https://gfycat.com/greenarcticgraysquirrel), [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVA5BPCDras&t=2m34s), [here](https://gfycat.com/downrighttornhedgehog), [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVA5BPCDras&t=3m11s) where they just walk up slowly while Mr. Red bullies one of them, and especially [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1FRKCTWSPw&t=1m22s) where one actually just walks into Mr. Red's punches while spawning other clones.), I think it's safe to say that those slashes are going to land and Mr. Green's clones are going to be dropping like flies. Per usual, I'm sure.

**Controlling the Engagement?**

If you think the real Mr. Green is going to succeed by hiding somewhere, think again. Jason has always been capable of preternatural stealth and tracking (to the point that I could make a whole section out of the random stealth kills he's done over the years), and Uber Jason has all of that skill and then some.

There is one relevant feat from fleshy Jason that happens within the very movie that Uber Jason debuts in, which I can (and will) use for scaling since Uber Jason is just this version of Jason on sci-fi steroids. I'm going to be linking a Kill Count video here, not because the video itself would have been my first choice to source what I'm about to post, but because it shows everything I want to show and even provides its own context for the events in question.

* Jason [outmaneuvered a squad of far-future military operatives](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3Kub0sq2ks&t=6m31s), killing them all one-by-one. The only one who managed to do anything notable to him were:
   * Someone who actually saw him coming after one of the others appeared with a wound in her neck.
   * A man who [happened to look back in time to see him](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdkJ2WwMhAg&t=2m24s) after failing to scope him out at any point beforehand. Note that if this *weren't* the slower, less capable Jason doing the slashing, this man would have been dead before he could move.

Everyone else besides the plot-relevant badass leader died, most of them silently. Moreover, [he disappeared after being shot down by them](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdkJ2WwMhAg&t=0m7s), getting away without being seen.

If this becomes a game of cat-and-mouse, Jason is very likely to find him and eviscerate him before he even realizes he's been found.

**One Last Kick in the Teeth**

All of the above is *without* assuming that Jason's FTE feats are literal. Take that for what it's worth.

## Conclusions

* Uber Jason can survive being blitzed if it happens, fall back on his near-unending stamina to outlast Mr. Green and his clones, and then go to work on them at full or near-full capacity once they've tired themselves out trying to punch him to death. With Mr. Green's lack of options that don't revolve around punching, kicking or grappling, Jason has nothing to fear and will keep getting up as many times as it takes.
   * To be frank, this means that *nothing that was said in the opponent's opener is going to lead to a kill or an incapacitation*, and that the sequence of events detailed at the end of his post will not play out the way they are described.
* Mr. Green's speed advantage (however large or small) only lasts as long as Mr. Green maintains his speed amp. As Mr. Green has never kept up his speed mode indefinitely (or, indeed, for longer than a stretch of cinematic seconds at most), it's not going to last for very long.
* Jason outmuscles Mr. Green and can hit him with enough blunt force to ruin his day.
* Jason's slashing and piercing output far outclass Mr. Green's resistance to such attacks. (Which is effectively nonexistent)
* If Mr. Green tries to play hide-and-seek, he will find that Jason has been playing that game since before the first Shock video was even conceived, and is better at *winning* that game than the green stick figure will ever be.