Ame vs Corv

Ame R1

* Sabrewolf's scaling to Spider-Man is invalid

* Sabrewolf has no piercing resist and his healing factor doesn't help him from getting dismembered

* Shishio's main durability feat is shallow

* Cap's main durability feat is against brick and wood, which is much weaker than the concrete busting strength of Ame's team, it's also mitigated by his shield

* Cap's also has antifeats and gets one shot

* Corv's team is weak

* Ame's team is tanky and can take whatever Corv's team dishes out

* Iron Fist/X-23/Nightcrawler scaling doesn't work

* Gatostu scaling doesn't work

* Cap was prepared for the bullet and has antifeats

* The enemy team moves slow and falls victim to gas or fire

* Ame team skilled

* Ame's team has good stamina and Corv's team doesn't

* Shield bad

***

Corv R1

* No proof was given that IF scaling doesn't work

* X-23 scaling gets the job done

* Getting tagged by NC isn't bad

* Being injured doesn't affect the Zeroshiki

* Cap fast

* Sabre tanky and can fight through dismemberment

* Shishio tanky

* Cap tanky and has good stamina

* Sabre pierces

* Ame's team can't take the heat

* Batman has speed antifeats and relies too much on assumptions for his speed feat

* Shang's speed feat isn't as good as argued

* Azrael requires too many assumptions for his speed and it's vague

* Gas, fire, and ice won't be effective

* Cap will use two shields

* Miles breaking the kite shield isn't an antifeat as Herc had hit it prior

* Piercing the shield won't work because of Herc punch

* Shield can take heat

***

Ame R2

* Skill advantage and nerve strikes go uncontested

* Sabre weak

* Shishio's durability feat is against wood and he's weak

* Cap weak and antifeats were uncountered

* 70's IF isn't a bullet timer and he had gain a speed amp before his bullet timing feats

* X-23 feat still sucks and her speed is inconsistent

* NC has no striking speed feats or reaction speed feats of note and the idea that Sabre is comparable in speed is fake

* Zeroshiki isn't as fast as the full body Gatotsu since it doesn't use the whole body

* Shishio's speed is inconsistent

* Cap's bullet timing feat is worse than argued

* Cap's other speed feats are bad

* AvX WoG is valid

* Cap has speed antifeats

* Adamantium hasn't been proven to be good

* Azrael will fight more lethally than the TS and has a range advantage

* Azrael slashes more than stabbing, and Sabre doesn't have time to reattach limbs during battle

* Shishio was near death from his main durability feat

* He gets his sword broken or diarmed

* Cap's dura still sucks and he's got antifeats

* Sabre's offense is irrelevant

* Shishio wouldn't use his final technique in time before being taken out from his lack of estoteric resist

* Ame's team has good heat resist

* The shield won't cut

* Batman's antifeats have mitigating context

* Batman's main speed feat works and has other feats to back it up

* Shang's speed feat is good

* The assumptions made for Azrael's speed feat are reasonable and he has other good speed feats

* The enemy team gets taken out by esoterics

* Hydra Cap doesn't fight rationally

* Kite shield is inconsistent and the Herc punch doesn't translate to good piercing

* The shield conducts heat and can't block everything

***

Corv R2

* Kenshin takes place in the Meiji era where stone and steel were used more for architecture, so it's likely that the compound was made of it too

* The close to death statement isn't referring to Shishio

* No lifting feats have been provided for Ame's team and Azrael's lifting isn't good enough

* Shang's punching feat isn't as good as argued

* Herc probably weakened the shield

* Heat doesn't matter to Cap

* The trang antifeat has mitigating context

* Ame's speed feats are bad

* IF isn't using chi to amp his speed

* X-23 scaling works

* NC scaling works

* Cap fast

* Adamantium good

* Batman's antifeats are still antifeats

* Doesn't think Shang ever used nerve strikes on people comparable to him in speed

***

Judgements

Ame wins. This was a good debate on both sides, as both Ame and Corv raised good points and brought strong rebuttals in some areas. However Corv failed to effectively address some of the points that mattered the most. Ame provides enough evidence to show how his team's esoterics will be able to take down Corv's team such as gas attacks. Corv's claim that Shishio's fire would probably negate the poison is completely unfounded and his few scans in favor of Cap's poison and electric resistance isn't strong enough against Ame's wide array of Cap consistently falling victim to poison attacks or clearly being hurt by electric attacks. He claims that Cap's speed would allow him to avoid poison darts, but that would do little against a gas AOE that engulfs the room.
A point I feel Corv effectively countered were his points against Ame saying the shield wouldn't cut as regular Cap is throwing his shield to kill like Hydra Cap is and Corv also offers an example of Hydra Cap throwing piercing shields at opponents. However he fails to provide an actual speed for the shield and Ame argues that it's not fast enough to hit his team, and this goes uncontested with no feats being provided for its speed.
Corv also puts doubt on how good Shang's concrete obliterating feat is as it took multiple strikes, which was definitely a good point, but he fails to counter the other argued Shang feat (the radio tower kick) which still remains a strong feat. His counter of Shang's other form of offense, pressure points (which Batman was also argued to be capable of), was incredibly weak, as he only claims he thinks Shang has never used it against someone of comparable speed and provides no examples of Shang fighting a comparably fast opponent and failing to use a nerve strike to back it up.
Corv brings up a good point in mentioning Ame's failure of providing lifting feats means that his team would win in a grappling match, but he completely fails to show any examples of his team actually engaging in grappling. Good lifting feats by themselves don't automatically equate to
Corv also completely fails to properly contest Ame's argument that physics still transfers over to the round shield and Cap would still get hurt even when he block an attack. Ame also provides scans showing that the shield's size makes it vulnerable to attacks targeting different parts of the body.
The arguments Corv made against Batman's speed were hit and miss. Some good points were raised such as Catwoman training Holly doesn't automatically make her fast. But he fails to refute Ame's defense that Batman was turned away and wasn't expecting to be attacked by Holly which is curious, since Corv basically made the same argument in his defense for the Hydra Cap trang antifeat.
His arguments against the crossbow feat fell flat to me as Batman still catches the bolt after it was fired, showing he reacted to it traveling towards him.
I also wasn't a fan of him using Batman being hit by Freeze's ray as an antifeat since Corv himself admits it has no given speed, so there's no reason to assume it's supposed to be an antifeat against Batman being a bullet timer. Corv should've tried to establish example of the Freeze ray being slow to make this a good antifeat.
However the points raised against Batman's other speed feats worked for me, as Ame fails to provide a speed for the missiles and the Uzi feat isn't proven to be objectively bullet timing. Corv's arguments against Azrael's speed feats were also on point as there's nothing to suggest that the gun that doesn't look like a sniper rifle is one just because it was called a rifle. It's failure to pierce through the man is also a good point against its speed.
On the other hand, Corv's attempted debunk of Shang's speed didn't work well as the distance between Shang and the gunman is clearly closer than the compared feat of Cap and Bucky. Even accepting Corv's argument of how fast this feat actually is, it puts Shang as still comparable in speed to Corv's team and Ame has argued that skill provides a big advantage in the case of comparable opponents.
Ame gives strong counters to Sabre's speed scaling as he provides multiple examples of 70's IF being tagged by things slower than bullets, with Corv making no attempt to counter these as he instead focuses on the chi argument. His examples of X-23's speed being inconsistent is also pretty damning and the lack of speed given for NC's striking, which is what Sabre is reacting to, effectively shuts down Sabre's speed.
Sabre's durability was also pretty weak as it solely relies on Spider-Man scaling, and Ame shows how not only was Spider-Man holding back but it relies on cherrypicking which strength feats to use for scaling purposes from a character with OOT strength.
While I don't buy Ame's argument against Cap's premier bullet timing feat, his provided antifeats were good and weren't effectively countered by Corv. Ame also put's enough doubt into the effectiveness of Cap's premier durability feat as the damage done in the feat is below the damage output of what Ame's team can provide, it's mitigated by the shield, and it also incaps him. Also, Ame's attack on Cap's heat resistance was effective, especially the scan showing how Hydra Cap literally died to fire.
I agree with Ame's argument that the building in Shishio's feat was most likely wood not stone, as evidenced by the wooden beams, but he ignores the fact that it tears through the stone floor. I found it equally odd that Corv didn't focus on this part of the feat in his counterargument either.