anti-conflict logs.

<Vulpes> okay, it's more like Islam then
<Coast2> plus reddit is organized, has rules, has structure, can kick out members
<bassgoon> wow, amazon essentially blanked out the top 750 pixels of their layout today
<Vulpes> officially, anyone who views themselves as Muslim and recites the Shahada is a Muslim
<IceKarma> Coast2, ... supposedly
<bassgoon> probaly since at least Saturday I suppose
<Vulpes> this is in no way different than Anonymous
<diogenes> Coast2: there being a would make it a bit non-anonymous, wouldn't it?
<cnf> Coast2: what do you mean? i don't have a reddit account
<diogenes> Coast2: being a list*
<cnf> i'm on reddit all the time, thiugh
<taixzo> I'd agree with cnf on that
<Vulpes> they'd probably be annoyed at the assertion that they're more or less a religion, of course
<Coast2> diogenes, true
<Coast2> diogenes, making anonymous *fundamentally* useless
<Vulpes> Anonymous is a self-selected group, just like any other group in history
<arble> SCOTUS has agreed to hear Whole Women's Health v Cole
<bassgoon> is there like a bizarre historical parity to people from Syria going to Europe and attacking them because of their religious differences?
<diogenes> Vulpes: like mensa
<djh> Coast2: How does anonymous differ from a religion, in your view?
<arble> potentially the biggest ruling on abortion since 1992
<IceKarma> arble, haven't heard of that one, got a summary in a thimble?
<Vulpes> or like nationality, or like religion
<Vulpes> bassgoon, not really
<arble> it's bubbled up from Texas trying to slap more burdens on women who want an abortion
<Coast2> djh, it doesn't differ much, except major religions have their official texts, have churches, have rules, can excommunicate people sometimes, have structure
<arble> the one Wendy Davis filibustered for 11 hours
<IceKarma> arble, right
<Vulpes> Coast2, nope, that's just this one weird religion
<Vulpes> and only some parts of it
<cnf> Coast2: "official" texts
<IceKarma> arble, so who are Whole Women's Health and who is Cole, and which side are each on?
<cnf> Coast2: they can't really agree on which version, though
<Coast2> cnf, the catholic church has canon texts.
<arble> SCOTUS may end up issuing firm judgement on what constitutes an unreasonable burden on access to abortion
<Coast2> sure, cnf
<cnf> Coast2: and anonymous has a manifesto
<Coast2> never said they're good at it
<bassgoon> Vulpes, I mean, I know there's no central Islamic authority saying "go attack Europe and free the holy lands"...but i mean...I dunno
<Vulpes> Islam certainly doesn't have anything like this, since it only has the Koran as an official God-given text
<arble> WWH is a women's organisation who are pro-choice, it seems
<djh> and like the bible, it forbids violence and murder
<Vulpes> it's more the method that seems entirely different to me bassgoon
<arble> don't know who Cole is specifically
<cnf> Coast2: and anonymous has meetings, and rules, and structure
<arble> aha
<cnf> just all very fluid
<arble> Texas health commissioner
<Coast2> cnf, too fluid
<Bucket> Was that a haiku?
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<cnf> Coast2: maybe for your taste
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<Coast2> cnf, to fluid to "exist" in my opinion
<cnf> Coast2: that doesn't make it useless, or non-existing
<cnf> some people _like_ it fluid
<arble> then your opinion is a minority one
<bassgoon> Vulpes, I think the method is the most effective available to them
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<bassgoon> Vulpes, for Europeans in the 11th century it was boats of soldiers...
<Coast2> it is useless. Why? Because there is no new useful information gained by learning x is part of Anonymous
<Vulpes> yes there is
<nobody> thats bullshit
<djh> that depends on who x is
<bassgoon> Vulpes, or rather, the method perceived to be most effective...
<cnf> Coast2: useless to you
<djh> if x is just someone who reads 4chan sometimes, then it's useless
<Vulpes> if someone is part of Anon, you know that they probably stand for more freedoms for the Internet, privacy etc.
<djh> if x is someone who can rally a worldwide group of hackers to target a site.. it's not useless
<cnf> anonymous has had quite objective impacts on the world
<Coast2> cnf, useless in general. If I tell you that my friend john is part of anonymous, what important aspect have you learned about john
<cnf> good or bad is another debate, of course
<cnf> Coast2: oh, a hell of a lot!
<bassgoon> I suppose it's trite to make the whole "how different is the suicide bomber from the air force aside from the plane" comparison...
<cnf> Coast2: what he believes, what he supports, for one
<barometz> you know he's active on the internet
<djh> if I tell you my friend John identifies as a christian, what have you learned about john?
<Coast2> cnf, why is that
<barometz> he probably doesn't support the kicking of kitties
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<cnf> Coast2: because that is what anonymous IS, it's a social structure
<Coast2> cnf, cant john not believe anything in the "anonymous manifesto" and still call himself anonymous?
<Vulpes> barometz, maybe?
<Vulpes> sure, but why would he do that?
<Coast2> Vulpes, why not?
<Coast2> for lols?
<djh> lulz
<cnf> Coast2: just as much as you can call yourself a government employee
<Coast2> for giggles?
<Vulpes> also, what he calls himself and what he is are sort of different things
<barometz> yeah I can do that with any group
<barometz> anyone can tell a lie
<Vulpes> I could say I'm French if I wanted to
<Coast2> cnf, no, because government employees have actual requirements and papers to back that claim up. You need to follow certain rules and meet certain criteria
<cnf> Coast2: no you don;t
<Vulpes> it would be an utter lie, but there's nothing specific you can identify about it that makes it so
<djh> if christians can be split on whether gay marriage is totally fine or a huge sin, isn't a religion as useless as anonymous?
<cnf> anyone can call themselves government employees, or members of a church, or any other group
<Vulpes> to call yourself a government employee you need a method of communication with the world
<Coast2> cnf, sure, I can lie about beings a govt employee, but if you wanted to investigate, you could find proof to either support or deny my claim
<barometz> When I tell you I identify as Christian, what's more important - my identifying as such, or the fact that the church has me in their big book of baptisms?
<cnf> Coast2: doesn't mean you can just walk into a gov building, but just calling yourself anonymous doesn't get you in with the group, either
<cnf> Coast2: you need serious cred to actually get int anonymous
<Coast2> if I had no paper supporting the claim that I am employed by the govt you would have no reason to believe me
<djh> meh, this conversation hs gone from vaguely interesting to boring. I shall make tea instead.
* barometz starts the first episode of Enterprise, smiles at the intro music
<arble> when I say I like owls, do you take my word for it or look me up in the registry of owl lovers
<cnf> i agree djh
<arble> because if you do the latter you'll see that I'm top of the list
<barometz> arble: that makes it sound vaguely illegal
<Coast2> but if anonymous is so "fluid" then the claim "I am part of anonymous" is unfalsifiable.
<arble> p cool really
<cnf> arble: owl lovers are a myth
<arble> I'm an owl lover
<barometz> well, sure
<arble> is that unfalsifiable
<djh> arble: that would make you a superb owl lover?
<Coast2> arble, yes.
<Coast2> arble, it is
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<IceKarma> arble, /your face/ is unfalsifiable ;3
<arble> you flirt
<Vulpes> Coast2, you're not human
<Coast2> arble, which is why headlines don't read "owl lovers have declared war on isis"
<cnf> Vulpes: he just likes to debate everything
<arble> djh: I prefer superb owls, yes
<Vulpes> human is just such a fluid group
<djh> ..that's a headline I would like to read!
<Vulpes> humans are a myth
<cnf> Coast2: you should read the news more, stuff like that is in there ALL the time
<arble> owls are extremely efficient predators
<arble> wouldn't mind seeing them declare war on these baddies
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<Vulpes> maybe you could train owls to identify Daesh leaders and then inject them with fast-acting neurotoxin?
<barometz> why HAVEN'T owl lovers spoken out!?
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<Coast2> cnf, "owl lovers *as a group* have declared war on ISIS" is a meaningless headline for the exact same reasons
<Vulpes> they stalk silently in the night, hunting... for INJUSTICE
<arble> owllahu ackbar
<Vulpes> get them on a special team with falcons, cats, foxes, and octopodes and you've solved the problem entirely
<cnf> Coast2: nonsense, you just don't understand social structures _at all_, it seems
<Coast2> cnf, that's a good argument.
<Coast2> cnf, you can write an owl loving manifesto all you want, but until you have The Organization of Owl Lovers with a member list and a structure it means nothing. Then that particular organization can take a stance against ISIS.
<cnf> *sigh* i'm gonna do something else
<arble> nah that's just false
<cnf> repeating the same thing all the time leads nowhere
<Logopolis> ISIS lovers declare war on ISIS
<Logopolis> Egyptologists everywhere have condemned etc etc predictable joke
<Coast2> arble, I'm sorry if there is an actual owl loving organization I have dismissed here
<arble> Logopolis: rowers have taken up blades against extremism
<Coast2> arble, I'm especially sorry if you're the president of such an organization
<cnf> HIPSTERS take on ISIS!
<Logopolis> buttock-topping underpants declare war on islamic state etc etc predictable joke
<arble> nah there is no such organisation, but it is definitely a group of people
<arble> since any group of people is a group of people
<arble> tautology germane
<Logopolis> Any group of people declaring itself to be such a group of people will be noted in the statutes and particulars general to be a group of people designated as such.
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<arble> probably in triplicate
<Logopolis> And definitely in this format:
<Coast2> arble, a group of which I can declare myself a member of any time I wish to. I can hate owls and declare myself an owl lover, then write to newspapers about how I declare war on ISIS. I can then get a couple of my buddies and do the same, and then the headlines will shout about how Owl Lovers as a group have declared war on ISIS.
<arble> the point is that any group of people can have aims, goals, objectives etc
<arble> that is just fact
<djh> no they won't, because you identify as an owl hater
<Coast2> arble, and as long as that group has some rigidity, some boundaries, they might actually be relevant too
<arble> the importance, legitimacy etc of such goals and objectives is another issue
<Logopolis> Whereby it has been Declared that this Group of People has been declared to be such a Group of People (in relation to those Articles and Ordinances where it has been declared that such a Group of People has been declared to be required to be declared such a Group of Such People), this Group fo People shall henceforth and without let, hindrance, or delay, be declared a Group of People with respect to this note.
<arble> see also: statehood
<djh> See also: https://xkcd.com/1102/
<Logopolis> A state is any entity which is a state.
<Vulpes> this is sort of like saying that the Civil Rights struggle wasn't real because there wasn't an exhaustive register of "black people"
<barometz> any sensible newspaper will go 'round asking owl lovers to verify your claim
<barometz> Vulpes++
<Vulpes> barometz, wait, those still exist?
<Logopolis> barometz: Good job none of them are sensible then, ho ho ho.
<barometz> Vulpes: that's the hitch
<barometz> or the snag, as may be
<cnf> Coast2: you know that ISIS itself has the exact characteristics, right?
<arble> "we dressed up as owls and went out to track down some owl lovers"
<Coast2> cnf, I am not sure what the structure ISIS has or if it has any
<Logopolis> Austin Hasteltine reporting on that one later.
<Vulpes> "but then we got distracted by some tasty mice"
<Logopolis> Coast2: ISIS is an extremely sophisticated organisation.
<cnf> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/16/chelsea-manning-isis-strategy btw
<Logopolis> It operates as an independent state
<Vulpes> "so we're replacing the planned article with one about how tasty mice are"
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<Logopolis> drawing on and coordinating all the infrastructure at its disposal in exactly the way any other state would.
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<arble> since we're discussing owls, here's a picture of an owl that appears to belong to Thor http://img09.deviantart.net/dd39/i/2013/087/d/f/bubo_bubo_by_shadowsteed15-d5zjg9f.jpg
<Logopolis> Also, the west has finally realised that we can call it “Daesh” and annoy everyone.
<arble> he's decided to outdo his father's silly ravens
<Logopolis> So overnight, everyone has started calling it Daesh.
<bassgoon> so stupid
<bassgoon> who gives a shit
<Logopolis> I’ve been saying from the beginning that we should just call them “A pack of raging cunts.”
<Coast2> Vulpes, I can declare myself to be black all I want. I will not be black. There exist boundaries for that group
<Logopolis> So that whenever they’re in the news, you get this:
<Vulpes> Coast2, nope, there are no boundaries
<Logopolis> “A pack of raging cunts has captured Rakka."
<Logopolis> Vulpes: Yes there are, actually.
<Coast2> Vulpes, there are, and I know because I sit outside of them
<bassgoon> why don't we call them something based on the Egyptian godess of motherhood
<Logopolis> Rachel Dozeal discovered that the hard way.
<Logopolis> arble: Also, that’s kind of racist.
<cnf> Logopolis: so APORC?
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<Logopolis> Assuming that every blond, long haired bearded scandinavian lookin’ man is Thor.
<arble> not all of them
<Bucket> only 3.14 of them.
<Coast2> Logopolis, was Thor described as blond?
<Vulpes> but that's the thing, there wasn't any real reason to definitively state that Rachel Dolezal wasn't black
<Logopolis> Besides, everyone with a thorough understanding of the Eddas and norse mythology in general knows it to be true
<Logopolis> that Thor was actually a MASSIVE GINGE.
<arble> only ones evidently worthy enough to enlist the service of such a creature
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<Logopolis> Vulpes: Except for the fact that she isn't.
<djh> I always thought mjolnir was a hammer. Turns out it was an owl
<Logopolis> Mjowlnir.
<Vulpes> Logopolis, ok, how exactly do you define black though?
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<Coast2> Vulpes, well, for starters, you can very easily identify someone who is very far from being black
<Logopolis> It has pretty exact parameters.
<Vulpes> oh, so you're basing it entirely on skin colour
<Logopolis> Er, no.
<Vulpes> that's pretty lazy
<Coast2> not just.
<Logopolis> Ancestry.
<Coast2> ^^
<barometz> "Ready to what?" "To look beyond your provincial attitudes and your volatile nature." "Volatile? You have no idea how much I'm restraining myself from knockin' you on your ass." quality character establishment for Cpt. Archer
<djh> so at what point does someone's ancestry stop qualifying them as being black?
<Logopolis> djh: There’s the rub, really.
<Logopolis> It’s about degrees of relatedness.
<barometz> hold up
<Bucket> You thinking what I'm thinking?
<Logopolis> Sex ferret?
<Logopolis> Because otherwise, no.
<Vulpes> ok, so was Effa Manley black, white, both, or neither?
<Logopolis> I have literally no clue who that is.
<barometz> isn't the conflict you're talking about betewen "people who support the establishment" and "people who want to take it the fuck down", rather than "people who are oppressed" and "people who oppress"
<Logopolis> Depends what you mean by “the establishment."
<barometz> (this makes for an easier argument in the preceding discussion, because "people who want to take it the fuck down" are not registered anywhere either)
<Vulpes> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effa_Manley
<Logopolis> barometz: Because nobody knows what to rebel against.
<Vulpes> an important figure to keep in mind when discussing Rachel Dolezal
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<Logopolis> That’s the beauty of the west!
<taixzo> many people who would generally be considered Hispanic have African ancestry - are they black then?
<Logopolis> We all feel anxious, all the time, and none of us are ever entirely sure why.
<barometz> rebel without a caaaaause *air guitar*
<Coast2> barometz, I thought we were talking about how relevant or informative the headline "anon declares war on ISIS" was
<Logopolis> taixzo: Dunno - ask them.
<Vulpes> not saying she was justified in any way to claim black heritage, because I know fuck all about that specific case, largely out of personal choice
<Logopolis> taixzo: Most hispanic people in the states identify as white.
<barometz> Coast2: it's what I'm tying back into, but it's about three hops back so it's a hassle to make the connection
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<Logopolis> And most europeans struggle to work out what exactly “hispanic” means because it isn’t a category you really get over here.
<barometz> also hooray after emailing my insurance instead of trying for a third time to get helpful information over the phone they have confirmed that I can get new glasses for free
<Logopolis> Glasses of what?
<barometz> as in a pair of
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<Logopolis> o rite
<barometz> binocles
<Logopolis> duopthalmos
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<taixzo> "binocles" is an excellent word and should be used more often.
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<barometz> current pair is very slightly off but enough to be a hassle in traffic in the dark, plus there's a big scratch on one that looks bad
<Logopolis> It would be biocles, which is a bit ambiguous.
<barometz> sounds like a greek dude
<Logopolis> Biokles, greek hero of The Bees.
<barometz> bio-klees
<Logopolis> Not to be confused with Thebes, which is different.
<taixzo> what does the "-cles" suffix mean, anyway?
<Logopolis> GLORY.
<Logopolis> *klewos “fame, prestige”
<djh> ooo, harshness from reddit: Anonymous declares war on ISIS: The terrorists are being attacked by the virgins
<barometz> all 72 of them
<cnf> djh: :P
<Logopolis> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleos
<Coast2> so uh, yeah. Where I'm failing to see the logic is where you'd extract any information from the following: You have group A that has say, a manifesto, but no criteria for joining. Therefore, any member X can instantly declare themselves as part of group A without believing a word of that manifesto. In fact, the group cannot even make the rule that all members need to agree with the manifesto because that would mean imposing regulations, which
<Coast2> would mean structure, which would mean loss of fluidity. If I then tell you that X is part of A, what do you know besides a simple label?
<arble> nothing
<djh> oh, give it a rest
<Bucket> nothing does not exist.
<Vulpes> that they say they agree with the manifesto
<arble> but you can infer
<cnf> Coast2: you fail because you refuse to incorporate knowledge you have been supplied
<barometz> people lie, news at 11
<barometz> it's not enough information for a rigorous proof, but the news isn't concerned with that
<Logopolis> That is why you fail.
<barometz> the news is concerned with talking about people
<Vulpes> it's like if someone says they're a Communist, they probably agree with at least some of the core tenets of the writings of Karl Marx and will talk at length about the ones they don't agree with
<Coast2> Vulpes, how so? In order for that to e the case the manifesto would need to be "official" or canonical
<Logopolis> Vulpes: Or at least that they think they agree with them
<Vulpes> read what I said again, Coast2
<arble> if I say I'm an owl lover you can infer that I like owls
<Logopolis> this is an important facet of the thing.
<arble> I might not actually like them!
<Logopolis> arble: Or you’re an owl which can be worn over something else.
<Coast2> ok, the owl lover example has that going
<arble> but in the general case you would expect someone who calls themselves an owl lover to be a big fan of owls
<Coast2> if I concede that someone calling themselves anon means that most of the time they agree with the stuff in the manifesto, I still find it hard to buy that you could ever say that this group has made a decision, as a group
<barometz> it usually holds up
<cnf> hell, you can be part of a social structure even if you don't know it, or want to be
<barometz> not a lot to gain by falsely claiming that one
<Logopolis> Anon operates much like nomadic confederations.
<Logopolis> Someone says “We should do this.” If others agree to it, it snowballs.
<Logopolis> If they don’t, nobody even remembers it was said in the first place.
<djh> a pack of wolves decides to go hunting for food without a word being spoken.
* nobody remembers it was said
<Coast2> nobody, you forgot "even"
<LogicalDash> #xkcd you're looking a little bit Photoshopped today, did you remember to floss?
<arble> in practice a newly minted anon handle on twitter would carry little weight if it tweeted about its decision to attack ISIS
<Coast2> Logopolis, if it snowballs to the point where a majority of the group do the thing, sure, you could see it as a group decision
<Coast2> but you don't know how big anon is
<Coast2> 5000 people could mean a majority or a minority
<Logopolis> It doesn’t matter.
<Logopolis> That’s the whole point.
<arble> instead you have more established accounts that have a history of behaving in accordance with overall Anon principles
<Coast2> if a minority of the people in the group make the decision
<Logopolis> It’s as big as the people involved in any given thing want or need it to be.
<Coast2> then is it a group decision?
<darkscrypt> i like that this conversation is still going.
<cnf>  if you do outlandish things in the name of anon, and anon disagrees, everyone will know about it
<arble> I peep the occasional tweet from YourAnonNews and I have no idea how many real people have access to that account
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<darkscrypt> sad that i missed a lot of it since i had to step away
<Logopolis> darkscrypt: Coast is unable to grasp that sometimes things don’t matter.
<arble> could be a whole team of folks, could be jsut one guy
<arble> it doesn't matter
<taixzo> if someone says Anonymous made a decision, and more people from anonymous agree than disagree, it's made
<djh> darkscrypt: Coast2 is still refusing to accept Boxxy as the reigning queen of /b
<arble> what matters is that the account says things consistent with Anon
<darkscrypt> who is boxxy?
<cnf> Coast2 is unable to grasp social structures, i think
<Logopolis> djh: You take that back.
* Bucket takes back his million dollars
<djh> hahahahahah
<Logopolis> YOU TAKE THAT BACK RIGHT NOW.
<Logopolis> Uhh forget I said anything.
<cnf> Logopolis: did you say something?
* taixzo forgot Logopolis
* barometz considers Beowulf (2007) as his movie for tonight
<Logopolis> No.
<Coast2> arble, my initial point was that "it doesn't matter". It "doesn't matter" what people who claim to be in anon do, we cannot characterize that as the group, itself, taking a stance
<Coast2> because the group itself is of unknown proportions
<Logopolis> Coast2: If the group comes to take that stance, it has taken it.
<arble> I'm talking about a different thing not mattering
<Logopolis> That is the nature of the group.
<Coast2> Logopolis, the group as represented by whom
<Logopolis> It doesn’t exist until it has decided it exists.
<Logopolis> This is the nature of groups.
<arble> anon has a whole bunch of twitter accounts and blogs and websites
<Logopolis> And that’s why nobody in the MSM really “gets” anonymous.
<djh> and chans
<Logopolis> They don’t understand that it’s not a group.
<Logopolis> It’s an /ungroup/.
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<arble> anyone can be Anon if they want to
<Logopolis> It’s not even an ungroup, come to think, it’s more /agroup/ all together.
<arble> all they have to do is start being Anon
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<Logopolis> It’s amazing how a running joke can turn into something this metaphysically troubling for some people.
<Logopolis> Do you think we should tell anyone?
<cnf> it's how you are at a party
<Coast2> arble, if 10 buddies of mine and I start calling ourselves anon and take a particular stance on an issue, has anon taken a stance?
<cnf> and suddenly everyone decides to go to another party
<cnf> "the group" decided
* Logopolis sics the party van on cnf
<arble> if you issue your statement through an outlet known and widely acknowledged as Anon, yes
<taixzo> cnf++
<djh> I'm still wondering how Coast2 can accept the existence of rivers, since their size and composition change constantly and this apparently means there's no useful way of defining them
<cnf> probably someone says "hey, i know a great place!"
<cnf> but who that person was, few people will remember
<Coast2> cnf, "everyone". The problem is, in this particular party, you don't know how many total people there are, you jsut know that some of them have left
<cnf> "everyone" decided to go to the new place
<Logopolis> cnf: Then they lead everyone to a gigantic flatfish.
<arble> that's all you know at a real party too
<Logopolis> And people agree that it is, on examination, a Great Plaice.
<cnf> Coast2: the point is, that is how social structures work
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<Coast2> arble, at a real party, you can see that there are 3 people left in the room
<arble> an indeterminate quantity of people leave and it triggers the question "where did everyone go?"
<arble> even if lots of people are actually left
<cnf> Coast2: no, you can not
<cnf> Coast2: you really can not
<cnf> Coast2: suddenly, _everyone_ leaves
<Coast2> ...in order for everyone to leave, then there would have to be no one left correct?
<arble> the only important number of remnant partygoers to look out for is one, if she's hot and down
<cnf> the individuals become a flock, move as a flock, and then become individuals again
<djh> maybe there should be an #xkcd_long_arguments for threads like this to move to
<Logopolis> arble: Or even if she’s hot and up.
<cnf> Coast2: it doesn't matter
<shambrarian> #xkcd-pedantic
<taixzo> djh: or #xkcd-long-arguments
<cnf> if 5 people stayed, they are not part of "the group" at that time
<Logopolis> #xkcdiam14andthisisdeep
<djh> taixzo: or that
<Bucket> or that... or that... or maybe that.
<Coast2> cnf, my point is you cannot characterize :the party: as having done something if only a few people left right?
<Coast2> it was just those dudes, correct?
<cnf> Coast2: not right
<Coast2> not right
<Coast2> hm
<Coast2> so at a party with 100 percent people, 2 percent leave, the party has left?
<djh> it could do
<arble> go to some parties and report back
<djh> "the party" is an emergent property
<Vulpes> if everyone looks around, and thinks 'hey, everyone's gone' then everyone's gone
<cnf> Coast2: the numbers don't matter
<Coast2> no, Vulpes, thats what I'm saying. Just 2 percent of the people are gone
<Vulpes> this is sometimes known as the 'life of the party'
<Logopolis> Depends.
<Bucket> Depends is for the incontinent in all of us
<cnf> sigh, whatever
<Logopolis> was one of those two people Magnitude?
<Coast2> Vulpes, everyone's still here
<Coast2> Vulpes, just those few people are gone
<Coast2> can you say the party has left?
<cnf> it's like you deliberately miss the point
<Logopolis> cnf: He’s young.
<Coast2> 98 percent of the people are still in the room.
<Vulpes> what is the party?
<Bucket> In America, you can always find a party ... In Soviet Russia ... Party finds you!
<Logopolis> cnf: Deliberately missing the point is basically his job.
<Jacob> The party is an agreed upon social construct, it exists as long as society believes it to exist
<djh> hey, we can test this theory empirically: s/the party/the argument/ and everyone but Coast2 stop taking part
<cnf> indeed Jacob
<Logopolis> djh: I know this great plaice down the road from here.
<Coast2> well that's an amazingly nice way to say you'd like to not take part in a discussion.
<Logopolis> Wanna go?
<Coast2> I should just never hold opinions from now on, I'm just a young dumbfuck anyway right?
<Coast2> christ.
<Bucket> christ is delicious.
<Jacob> Logopolis: by if we all leave to go the party, is this conversation still occurring?
<Vulpes> Coast2, no, being wrong is how you learn
<Coast2> Vulpes, apparently I'm wrong by default.
<shambrarian> Coast2: and being douchy is how you get people pissed off at you
<Jacob> Vulpes: than I should be a genius by now!
<Vulpes> we're just being a bit tetchy about how long it takes because of an interesting feature of how we remember things
<Logopolis> Vulpes: In that case, people should really call me Albert Einsteincunt rather than just cunt.
<Vulpes> we think it took us a lot less time than it actually did
<Coast2> shambrarian, you wouldn't be happy either if every time you did not understand something it was chalked up to "oh he's just young and stupid"
<shambrarian> I was never on a debate team, but I've done enough of it personally to know that many people do not take well to being hammered over the head with a theoretical argument. doubly so for "devil's advocate".
<Vulpes> also, you're going to be wrong a lot, it's inevitable, it's better to just not feel bad about it
<djh> Coast2: Nobody's chalking anything up to your being young and stupid. They *are* chalking it up to an entire roomful of people telling you why you're wrong for a fucking hour and you still refuse to even entertain the possibility that you might, in fact, be wrong.
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<Jacob> Vulpes: even better, feel good about it
<shambrarian> Coast2: oh, I got that plenty when I was younger, and still do from my elders. agreed that it is annoying, but I believe it was also the nice way of explaining that you don't know how/when to drop something to avoid conflict.
<Vulpes> Jacob, that's a bit dangerous
<Coast2> djh, of course it's possible that I am wrong, never claimed I'm infallible.
<cnf>  Coast2  it is your unwillingness to waver from whatever you think you are right on, for hours, and ignoring every argument that makes people say that
<cnf> not being wrong
<Vulpes> because then you get Meghan McCarthy and a whole lot of dead people
<Jacob> creature: challenge, what is this conversation about?
<Jacob> Guess quickly
<Vulpes> yay, meta-argument
<creature> I'm going to opt-out of that one.
<Jacob> Awwww
<Jacob> No fun
<djh> ahh, wisdom
<Coast2> djh, do you really think I'm not trying to understand? That's why I'm asking questions, to see where I'm mistaken
<terran> It's something to do with parties
<Coast2> and in fact I've conceded a lot of my points too.
<creature> My instinct is to make a sarky quip, and I suspect the goal is to teach someone a little more empathy, so I'm going to quash that instinct.
<cnf> Coast2: it's not a battle
<Coast2> cnf, I've accepted I'm wrong about some parts of my ideas.
<Vulpes> see, this is why I don't actually like debate competetions much as a concept
<Coast2> better?
<cnf> nope
<Coast2> then?
<Coast2> what would be the correct formulation in a non-battle contexts.
<Coast2> context* even
<cnf> you are saying "i'm trying to learn by assuming i am right, and making everyone else prove i am wrong"
<Jacob> cnf: wait, it's not a battle? Oh, I should probably disable the targeting satellites
<cnf> and then making it a difficult battle by rejecting or ignoring every attempt
<cnf> and then say "but i have conceded on _some_ points
<taixzo> Bucket: inventory
<Bucket> I am carrying a concealed weapon, a horsetail, horse still attached, a song in 13/68 time, more magic, a metal pole, an alibi, an excuse, steam constroller, electrolytes, Death By Eaten By A Grue,, life everlasting, a luck dragon, a burned book with a grainy portal to another world on the first page, a Shoopuf, cheap imitation feels, the undroppable, the eyes, a thermometer catfight, nausea, and a hyperdermic needle.
<Coast2> when...trying to show the wrongness of something, is it not a correct method to take that something and see how every aspect of it squares against other things?
<Coast2> or taking it and going down the logical chain until you reach a contradiction
<terran> You're all probably wrong anyway whatever this is about
* taixzo considers the hyperdermic needle
<Coast2> or a fallacy
<taixzo> That's basically a squirt gun.
<cnf> well, i'm gonna switch channels, i'm out of patience
<darkscrypt> o/ cnf
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<Kizul|Science> :D Bucket's still holding more magic! Yay!
* Kizul|Science is now known as Kizul