An Average Performance by RenaissanceMan

RenaissanceMan
https://www.foxnews.com/us/california-pair-charged-with-hate-crime-after-black-lives-matter-mural-cover-up-authorities
K-Pax
RenaissanceMan: How do you feel about that?
22:23 kidboy
trump lives matter, too short lives matter, individuality not herd crime syndicate mentality
K-Pax
kidboy: I put you on block.
RenaissanceMan
Loooks good to me. They got charged. They will serve jail time.
RenaissanceMan
The only problem: how many other lunatics are pointing guns at people.
RenaissanceMan
Seems to be a trend.
K-Pax
I'm not entirely comfortable with them being charged with a "hate crime".
RenaissanceMan
Seems to be a predictable trend.
K-Pax
Though, of course, I do support them being charged with a crime(s).
K-Pax
In general, I'm somewhat suspicious hate crime statutes, as they veer close to protected speech and human diversity, though, it's complicated
K-Pax
suspicious of*
22:25 RenaissanceMan
K-Pax: That seems toe be a uniquely american disease. The rest of the civilized world doesn't seem to have a problem with charging epople with hate crimes.
K-Pax
RenaissanceMan: That seems true.
K-Pax
In the past, I thought that was because America was a world leader on free speech.
K-Pax
I don't accept it being a disease in all cases, though, of course.
K-Pax
It seems at least complicated.
K-Pax
So, can they stand on that Black Lives Matter painting and say all the stuff they did? Yep.
22:27 K-Pax
Can they say, "Nothing is more important to me than getting rid of this narrative"? Yep.
RenaissanceMan
My impression was that America was a world leader in assasinating people who excercised free speech.
RenaissanceMan
I've never thought of america as a leader in free speech.
K-Pax
RenaissanceMan: That might also be true.
K-Pax
RenaissanceMan: There may be aspects in which America has had high support of free speech.
glkfan
i just watched Trumbo on netflix
glkfan
where they rounded up screenwriters belonging to the communist party and banned them from working
K-Pax
Obviously, today, and for many years, the USA is a failed nation state.
RenaissanceMan
K-Prax: Free speech as long as you're white and male and christian and conservative. That's not quite the same thing.
RenaissanceMan
And no free speech for communists, of course.
K-Pax
RenaissanceMan: There is a lot of truth to that.
RenaissanceMan
Or labor organizers.
K-Pax
Did you say "prax" on purpose?
K-Pax
I am not a libertarian.
glkfan
all the major women-run subreddits just got banned from reddit
K-Pax
My first duty is always to the truth.
RenaissanceMan
Sara_Ks: Yes. It is clearly a hate crime.
PixelEight has left IRC (Quit: Leaving)
K-Pax
RenaissanceMan: Do you agree they should be legally allowed to stand over the BLM sign and say all the things they said?
RenaissanceMan
Sara_Ks: That would be a non-hate crime.
K-Pax
For the record, I hate Trump and Trumpism with my whole heart.
RenaissanceMan
Sara_Ks: People hate hitler too. For good reason. For all the same reasons, pretty much.
K-Pax
RenaissanceMan: Do you agree it is desirable to allow citizens to deface public monuments sometimes?
glkfan
Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.
K-Pax
By 'allow', I mean, 'not charge with a crime'.
RenaissanceMan
Sara_Ks: I think the gneral principle that's adhered to in other first world countries is that free speech is a limitied right, just as it is in the US. Libel laws, for example, limit the kind of speech you can make publicly, in the US. Same for inciting hatred against identifiable groups.
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RenaissanceMan
Inciting a riot. Also a limitation on free speech.
K-Pax takes a sixty minute break from RenaissanceMan, as they're unavailable for debate
K-Pax
Since RenaissanceMan was unavailable for debate, as a member of the green political movement, I'll state what I'm currently uncomfortable with that couple being charged with a hate crime:
K-Pax
1. It is sometimes appropriate to break the law. The Holocaust was legal. Slavery was legal.
K-Pax
2. It seems clearly in the interest of the public and good for some citizens to sometimes deface long-standing monuments. For example, the destruction of Christopher Columbus statutes or King Leopold II.
K-Pax
3. It is strictly illegal to do that, but I would not encourage the state to file charges against people who deface some monuments like that.
K-Pax
4. The Black Lives Matter writing on the street has been described by the city as a monument. Some people think this is the right type of monument to destroy and not the King Leopold the II monuments.
K-Pax
5. When the state doesn't file charges against destruction of some monuments, but does file charges against others, and further attaches 'hate crime' to that act, they're wading quite deeply into which speech is allowable.
K-Pax
6. Yes, the couple did more than speech. It seems reasonable to charge them with property damage or something similar. They didn't do an active thing, like hang a noose or paint a swastika. They undid a different kind of statement. That doesn't feel like hate to me. That feels like disagreement.
K-Pax
7. Yes, Trumpism is a hate movement. Yes, the woman and man are probably hate filled. Yes, they probably hate black people in some important way.
K-Pax
8. However, it seems incorrect to call the act of applying black paint to a surface for the sole purpose of undoing a political narrative as an action of hate.
K-Pax
9. I am open to learning about hate crime statutes in general, and in California specifically.
K-Pax
10. Maybe I'm wrong.
glkfan
what about kidboy's mom
K-Pax
11. The ability of the state to label this action a hate crime would seem to clearly assert the state has the power to label the destruction of a Christopher Columbus statute a hate crime. That would seem quite wrong.
K-Pax
12. I'm reasonably open to some actions being hate crimes. I'd probably want them to be connected to long-standing and known-to-be-painful and recurring acts in the history of that people. For example, hanging a noose in a garage. Burning a cross on somebody's property. Drawing a swastika.
K-Pax
13. In general, the erasing of text should probably not be considered a hate crime.
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K-Pax
14. In general, I've advised people to not get too upset over statues being destroyed. 100 statues are less important than one life. Focus on the lives of people being abused by systems.
deRuyter
and?
K-Pax
15. Ultimately, painting over some paint on a street isn't too upset. Let's not get upset. Let's focus on the lives of people.
deRuyter
did they follow your advice?
deRuyter
if not, why not?
K-Pax
deRuyter: People generally care deeply about statues as factionalism is a key mode for our species.
K-Pax
And statues make statements to ourselves and other factions that we exist and that we matter.
K-Pax
So, when our statues are destroy, we feel like we don't matter. I advise people to mostly set that aside. Statues can be rebuilt if it makes sense.
K-Pax
Paint can be re-applied to a street, if it makes sense.
K-Pax
I believe the paint was re-applied to the BLM on the street within a few hours.
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K-Pax
California was the first state to enact hate crimes legislation.
K-Pax
It was originally allowable as an extension to only relatively serious crimes.
K-Pax
Later it was extended as a possible extension to every crime.
Nognosis has left IRC (Quit: Leaving)
K-Pax
I decided to extend RenaissanceMan's block to 24 hours, as he violated several key norms on discussions highly valued in the West.
glkfan
There’s messages in every game, like Pac-Man. You know what Pac stands for? P-A-C. Program and Control. He’s Program and Control Man. The whole thing’s a metaphor. All he can do is consume. He’s pursued by demons that are probably just in his own head. And even if he does manage to escape by slipping out one side of the maze, what happens? He comes right back in the other
glkfan
side. People think it’s a happy game. It’s not a happy game. It’s a fucking nightmare world. And the worst thing is? It’s real and we live in it.
K-Pax
Specifically, he committed at least one ad-hominem fallacy and he used a pejorative to describe part of the thesis under discussion.