Cultural Relativism

* entropyEquivalent has joined the sidememo!
<entropyEquivalent> As I said
<entropyEquivalent> How /do/ you figure out who has the right culture?
<entropyEquivalent> Is there even such a thing?
<gevurahAllegiance> Depends on cultures.
<gevurahAllegiance> Alternia always loses.
<entropyEquivalent> I mean, I know this entire thing about Alternia having a highly stratified classist ableist kyriarchy
<entropyEquivalent> But, well
<entropyEquivalent> How are humans much better? We have /sexism/.
<gevurahAllegiance> Trolls have sexism too.
<gevurahAllegiance> Just subdued.
<entropyEquivalent> Yeah, but not the same kind.
<entropyEquivalent> It's a question that the more I research it the less I feel like I know!
* statisticalDepression has connected to memo!
<entropyEquivalent> Because, there are these things about the many subtly different cultures on your average Human Earth
<entropyEquivalent> and there are /way too many/ arguments about whether it's proper to ask people who cover their faces to unveil for ID photographs, or how raising children differs across cultures, and...
<gevurahAllegiance> And.
<entropyEquivalent> I know I need to stop somewhere, but the person who told me to do this research is at least as confused as I am
<statisticalDepression> what'd i miss?
<entropyEquivalent> Everything.
<entropyEquivalent> Obviously.
<statisticalDepression> yes. how wonderfully helpful.
<entropyEquivalent> The question is
<entropyEquivalent> How do you figure out who has the right culture?
<gevurahAllegiance> It's your damn fault moron, I invited you ages ago.
<statisticalDepression> you don't.
<entropyEquivalent> Is that even a question that can be answered?
<gevurahAllegiance> Earth is better. Unless it is goddamn police state that some fucking assholes made for my first session conatives.
<statisticalDepression> if people can't pick their own culture as the answer they go for whatever is gonna give 'em the best deal.
<entropyEquivalent> And - I'm trying not to push the limits of my NDA here, but I'm really at a total loss for what goes next - if we're trying to come up with a moral and ethical code that would work for a mixed-race society, who do we /base/ it on?
<entropyEquivalent> Why is replacing a human system with a troll system of morals "oppression" and replacing a troll system of morals with a human system "enlightenment"?
<entropyEquivalent> I've seen this before! They did it with people with dark skin, on Earth!
<statisticalDepression> 'cos humans shout the loudest in most communities we see?
<entropyEquivalent> And I discuss this with the author and she's like, well, /you/ tell me what I'm supposed to do about it, because I'm completely at a loss here too.
<entropyEquivalent> But then nobody knows what to do.
<gevurahAllegiance> Ok.
<gevurahAllegiance> Well, I am obviously biased against Alternia.
<entropyEquivalent> The problem is compromising the moral code means that we have to admit that we're doing things wrong that could be right, and /not/ compromising the moral code means that we're imposing on other people who might actually be more right than we are?
<statisticalDepression> what's wrong with admittin' faults?
<gevurahAllegiance> Caste system should be flushed with the rest of the shit cause it blends well.
<entropyEquivalent> Because we have an audience, right now.
<statisticalDepression> christ, it ain't like nobody ever got no faults. admittin' they exist is fuckin' important.
<entropyEquivalent> And if we alienate them by making the moral codes too unrecognizable to a human, we lose them, and with them any chance of making /smaller/ ethical changes to their worldview.
<entropyEquivalent> I'm terrified that I'm going to make the community split, with less overall good being done, if I push too hard.
<gevurahAllegiance> Ok.
<gevurahAllegiance> So why is it a big deal.
<entropyEquivalent> Trust me, it is.
<gevurahAllegiance> I mean, it is just a faq, not a holy bible.
<entropyEquivalent> ...
<gevurahAllegiance> I won't unless you tell me what sort of faq is it.
<entropyEquivalent> Like it or not, many would beg to differ.
<entropyEquivalent> No, I'm not allowed to.
<statisticalDepression> ...
<statisticalDepression> oh god, fanatics.
<statisticalDepression> fuck those guys.
<statisticalDepression> look, the thing is, no matter what you do? it's gonna clash with SOMEBODY.
<entropyEquivalent> Hey, if /you/ got the opportunity to rewrite the Bible at your will and have it taken as gospel, wouldn't you also try to use this to make people better?
<statisticalDepression> if i had the chance to re-write the bible i'd include more of the fun bits like the time some dude summoned bears to maul people for mockin' 'im.
<entropyEquivalent> So
<entropyEquivalent> What am I supposed to do, then?
<statisticalDepression> i don't know. you got a whole load a cultures t'work with, here, an' apparently people treat yer little q-an-a like a sacred text.
<statisticalDepression> so it's inevitable somebody is gonna get pissed.
<gevurahAllegiance> That is... quite a sound statement really.
<statisticalDepression> an' tryin' to minimise the number of people pissed off is gonna run the risk of you not actually, y'know, helpin' people
<statisticalDepression> 'cos yer gonna play to their favour by tellin' 'em what they /want/ to hear
<statisticalDepression> an' not what they /should/ be hearin'
<entropyEquivalent> ...
<entropyEquivalent> You have a point.
<statisticalDepression> would rather fuckin' hope so.
<statisticalDepression> just 'cos i'm coarse as shit don't make me entirely fuckin' thick.
<gevurahAllegiance> Eh.
<gevurahAllegiance> Your bible should include telling trolls that hemospectrum is wrong.
<gevurahAllegiance> And if they would go by it they should be bashed in the heads till their tiny pans fly outta their auditory lobes.
<statisticalDepression> depends how they is tryin' to use it i guess.
<statisticalDepression> beforans got nice enough intent behind theirs, even if it's still kinda shitty.
<gevurahAllegiance> Trust me, it is as shitty as alternian.
<entropyEquivalent> Hm.
<gevurahAllegiance> I would like to live on my own, not to be hunted down OR pampered like a little shit for being a blood mutant, thank you very much.
<entropyEquivalent> You should read about the humans and their "white man's burden" thing.
<statisticalDepression> please no.
<gevurahAllegiance> I did.
<statisticalDepression> i'd rather scrape my white man skin off.
<gevurahAllegiance> Lady, you think that I am not well-acquainted with your kind? I prefer humans to trolls but I am not blind for their faults either.
<gevurahAllegiance> You had less time than we to develop and you ended slavery and institutionalized genocide in most part of the world.
<gevurahAllegiance> Empire /did/ /not/.
<entropyEquivalent> ...
<entropyEquivalent> Point.
<statisticalDepression> best t'just start on the basis that everybody is a fuckin' dick an' proceed to be mostly pleasantly surprised i find.
<entropyEquivalent> I...
<entropyEquivalent> Prefer assuming that everyone is just insufficiently educated
<entropyEquivalent> and proceed from there only if it's proven otherwise.
<statisticalDepression> same thing, innit?
<entropyEquivalent> Assume stupidity, not malice.
<entropyEquivalent> Not quite.
<statisticalDepression> fuckin' high as hell co-morbidity rates then.
* dominoFeatherweight has begun responding to memo!
<dominoFeatherweight> Salutations.
<entropyEquivalent> Hi.
<statisticalDepression> wotcha.
<entropyEquivalent> Should I just dump you the entire backscroll, or should I summarize?
<gevurahAllegiance> Hey.
<statisticalDepression> dump backscroll.
<dominoFeatherweight> Logs Should Be Sufficient.
<dominoFeatherweight> Thank You, Very Much.
* entropyEquivalent has sent dominoFeatherweight "logs.txt"!
* dominoFeatherweight has accepted file!
<statisticalDepression> but seriously, go land on earth, an' look at where the money ain't goin' in yer standard first-world city. look at the schools there. if y'can't get a leg up usin' smarts, people go fer strength instead.
<entropyEquivalent> Yeah, but that's because they have basketball players for role models and the nerds get picked on.
<gevurahAllegiance> ...No?
<statisticalDepression> try havin' criminals fer role models.
<statisticalDepression> an' the smart don't get the supplies.
<entropyEquivalent> ...or whatever.
<gevurahAllegiance> Lady, you were kinda sheltered.
<dominoFeatherweight> I will dequirk here.
<gevurahAllegiance> You know, you don't need to if you don't want.
<gevurahAllegiance> Quirk to your heart content.
<statisticalDepression> y'don't get the food if yer poor. don't get the books. smarts gets choked outta ya. easy t'argue why that may be like.
<dominoFeatherweight> It will be easier to type a bit.
<entropyEquivalent> ...
<entropyEquivalent> Post-scratch, or...?
<statisticalDepression> it happens both sides a th'flip, lady.
<gevurahAllegiance> I think you are the only one here who is pre. And stadep is right on his money!
<statisticalDepression> why would bein' pre-scratch save people from poverty?
<entropyEquivalent> ...
<entropyEquivalent> because the destined kids usually don't get picked up by people who don't have money to raise them?
<entropyEquivalent> I'm confused now.
<gevurahAllegiance> ...
<statisticalDepression> why wouldn't they?
<gevurahAllegiance> You /really/ don't know life, do you.
<entropyEquivalent> ...
<entropyEquivalent> No? I'm a native Doom player who's never seen a Life player in the flesh before.
<dominoFeatherweight> Bias and prejudice does exist in many worlds, for many reasons. For example, racism as given, bias against different faiths and origins. In some universes, it's institutionalized. I was very poor as a child.
<statisticalDepression> just comin' down off a life roll, ain't no native a it though.
<dominoFeatherweight> I am currently a Priest of Doom, though natively of The Strife.
<gevurahAllegiance> My ex-kis was Life.
<statisticalDepression> an' what's th' aspect gotta do wit' shit?
<gevurahAllegiance> Never been Doom or Life, but I know life, capitals less.
<dominoFeatherweight> Nothing at all, really.
<gevurahAllegiance> The skullkid's just /that/ sheltered.
<statisticalDepression> livin' hand t'mouth is hard but y'can live that way.
<entropyEquivalent> I dunno I thought people were like me and the more I look up the less I understand
<dominoFeatherweight> Taking things a touch too literally.
<statisticalDepression> skaia just needs you alive. don't mean you gotta be the peak a perfection.
<statisticalDepression> an' you don't always gotta need money fer shit if yer so inclined.
<gevurahAllegiance> Yep.
<gevurahAllegiance> You are fated to survive till beginning of the game.
<gevurahAllegiance> And fated to have a computer and a game on it.
<dominoFeatherweight> True enough. Never a perfect mortal and nary a perfect God, either. In what condition can vary widely.
<statisticalDepression> shopliftin' an' petty theft can cover that.
<entropyEquivalent> Oh.
<statisticalDepression> weeell, computer is less petty, but still doable.
<entropyEquivalent> Can you play Sburb on a phone?
<statisticalDepression> dunno.
<dominoFeatherweight> Not all might have smartphones, so I would rather doubt it.
<statisticalDepression> ain't never had t'try.
<gevurahAllegiance> I have no clue, but it wouldn't be really easy?
<gevurahAllegiance> And not even a fucking point.
<entropyEquivalent> I mean, the interface can be poked at with fat fingers, it's got big enough buttons and a thing that will call up an on-screen keyboard for when you need to enter stuff.
<dominoFeatherweight> The better question is: how should bias and prejudice be dealt with?
<gevurahAllegiance> ^
<entropyEquivalent> Yes.
<statisticalDepression> carefully.
<dominoFeatherweight> It should not be ignored, it won't make it go away.
<statisticalDepression> listen to what people is sayin' if they think there's bias against 'em.
<statisticalDepression> if it's a legit cause fer concern, fuckin' /deal/ with it.
<statisticalDepression> an' /talk/ to those people about how ta deal wit' it.
<statisticalDepression> don't assume that you, the people what wrote that bias inta things, got th' figurin' a how t'fix it.
<statisticalDepression> 'cos that sorta misses th' point a bit.
<dominoFeatherweight> If casteism, racism, specism or prejudice against particular religions, we must be somewhat flexable. It is often said "the victors write the history books". A friend of mine who taught me English eventually introduced me to alternate texts, such as A People's History Of The United States by Howard Zinn.
<dominoFeatherweight> Research before the talking to might be something worthy to do, much better for preparing.
<dominoFeatherweight> Sweet reason is not always effective, but it can be a starting point.
<dominoFeatherweight> There are those who are without reason for their beliefs, a sort of laziness or being so taken in by what they have told. "It is as it is, why should it change?"
<dominoFeatherweight> "It has worked for our forebears, why not now?"
<entropyEquivalent> ...
<entropyEquivalent> All right.
<entropyEquivalent> Thank you for your input.
<entropyEquivalent> I... have a lot to think about.
<dominoFeatherweight> I hope I wasn't too long-winded.
<entropyEquivalent> As well I should.
<gevurahAllegiance> Can we at least get a link to the goddamn faq.
<dominoFeatherweight> Oh! I shall ask about sharing a project I have been advising on.
<dominoFeatherweight> A number of trolls and myself have been considering trying to reform Alternian law to be in line more with Mannerism.
<entropyEquivalent> ...
<entropyEquivalent> Yes, this is relevant to my interests.
<dominoFeatherweight> Another Mannerist on the project would not be remiss.
<dominoFeatherweight> The contact person is stanzicApparati.
<entropyEquivalent> [> Susan: Double-take.]
<entropyEquivalent> I wouldn't consider myself a /Mannerist/ proper?
<dominoFeatherweight> Hm, ah. You have knowledge, however yes?
<entropyEquivalent> ...
<entropyEquivalent> Yes?
<dominoFeatherweight> That is what is needed. Another point of view and knowledge.
<entropyEquivalent> [> Susan: Headdesk. You weren't /intending/ for them to know, but you were obvious enough that it could be figured out.]
<entropyEquivalent> [Fuck.]
<entropyEquivalent> [You're going to have to apologize for this, later.]
<dominoFeatherweight> [You are perceptive and biased. Whoops.]
<entropyEquivalent> [You're already composing the apology note in your head.]
<statisticalDepression> why'd you want mannerists?
<statisticalDepression> most a 'em are a buncha snobs.
<statisticalDepression> [ >David: Be completely oblivious ]
<entropyEquivalent> ...
<gevurahAllegiance> [>Yerv: griefbait ]
<entropyEquivalent> Sure, but /she/ isn't.
<gevurahAllegiance> Don't let me start.
<dominoFeatherweight> I am sorry to hear so many seem to be that way. It's disgraceful.
<gevurahAllegiance> So your mannerist isn't a douche canoe?
<dominoFeatherweight> That is not what the FAQ is about.
<dominoFeatherweight> I am not, no.
<dominoFeatherweight> Or I would hope so.
<gevurahAllegiance> Well, I know you are not.
<gevurahAllegiance> I am asking entEqu
<statisticalDepression> y'can just hear the disdain in their voices 'alt th' time.
<entropyEquivalent> ...
<entropyEquivalent> In a manner of speaking, my contact with the Mannerist world does not float on water.
<entropyEquivalent> So she isn't a canoe.
<gevurahAllegiance> Ok.
<entropyEquivalent> [this is totally misdirection okay guys let her pretend]
<gevurahAllegiance> She ain't a native Witch either =;)
<gevurahAllegiance> [ That was a bad pun Yerv and you should be ashamed ]
<entropyEquivalent> ...
<entropyEquivalent> Maybe
<entropyEquivalent> I should
<entropyEquivalent> just go?
<gevurahAllegiance> Nooo, stay.
<dominoFeatherweight> If you wish to, but I have no problem with you.
<statisticalDepression> eh, ignore 'im. 'es a prick an' i'm a moron an' i dunno 'bout green girl over 'ere.
<gevurahAllegiance> Yep.
<gevurahAllegiance> He's a moron.
<gevurahAllegiance> And I am a prick.
<entropyEquivalent> No, no. I've already said too much.
<gevurahAllegiance> And you still haven't told us what sorta faq are you working for.
<dominoFeatherweight> It is really fine.
<entropyEquivalent> Does it matter?
<statisticalDepression> about yer mannerist girlfriend? eh.
<statisticalDepression> dun really care frankly.
<entropyEquivalent> She's not my /girlfriend/!
<entropyEquivalent> That would be
<entropyEquivalent> aaaaaaaaack
<entropyEquivalent> That would be completely inconceivable!
<statisticalDepression> yer mysteriously comin' out with 'no they're not all bad /she/ isn't' an' you can just 'ear the adoration.
<gevurahAllegiance> Hey, don't bash on different sexualities.
<statisticalDepression> fuckin' sounds like consort weddin' bells.
<gevurahAllegiance> ^
<entropyEquivalent> ...
* entropyEquivalent has disconnected from the server!
<dominoFeatherweight> Oh, dear.
<statisticalDepression> ahahahaha.
<statisticalDepression> it ain't just no river no more!
<gevurahAllegiance> I guess that she really isn't a lesbian.
<gevurahAllegiance> And is really sheltered.
<dominoFeatherweight> At least she is trying to learn. Most of that station do not even make the attempt.
* gevurahAllegiance shrugs
<dominoFeatherweight> In Any Case. Is There Much Else To Be Said Here?
<statisticalDepression> everybody is some degree a moron.
<gevurahAllegiance> Dunno.
<statisticalDepression> just depends on the subject at 'and.
<dominoFeatherweight> Ah, Yes.
<gevurahAllegiance> And dude you are selling yourself too low.
<gevurahAllegiance> For a moron you are quite deep.
<gevurahAllegiance> (Still a moron though, don't think I am complimenting you.)
<statisticalDepression> deep like a....shit i don't got a metaphor fer this.
<statisticalDepression> puddle.
<statisticalDepression> deep like a fuckin' puddle there i nailed it.
<gevurahAllegiance> Yeah right.
<gevurahAllegiance> Ok, I am out.
<statisticalDepression> bye.
<statisticalDepression> don't die, dickhead.
<gevurahAllegiance> Same, douche noodle.
* gevurahAllegiance disconnected
<dominoFeatherweight> Good Sense And Good Luck.
* dominoFeatherweight disconnected from side-memo