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<ghost43> ironbutt: I don't think that's surprising at all. just by the description of that samourai wallet feature, it would have an uncommon identifiable pattern -- and then combined with nlocktime, tx version, sequence numbers, script types -- there are just too many data points
<anotherSky> its like some weird awkward waiting room at a doctors now
<anotherSky> actually maybe Im just remembering it wrong
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<ghost43> there are not enough bitcoin transactions to hide in numbers
<ironbutt> ghost43: but why they aren't alerting users about it. or may be it gives some revenue stream for wallet
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<ghost43> why would they alert users?
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<ironbutt> at least not to use function in main wallets. they are the privacy oriented wallet as far as I know
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<ghost43> what they do is like "privacy through obfuscation" if there is such a thing. only works until someone determined looks into it
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<gmaxwell> ironbutt: privacy faking wallet, more like it.
<ironbutt> really.
<gmaxwell> I mean, the very first thing it does when you run it is sends all your addresses back to their server.
<luke-jr> are we talking about Samourai again?
<gmaxwell> unfortunately.
<luke-jr> sigh, I can guess just from the description
<ghost43> see link above about identifying "richochet" transactions on chain
<ironbutt> sorry. i dropped the link about their ricochet feature
<ironbutt> i know you don't like them, they don't like you
<ghost43> lol
<luke-jr> I don't like them because they're liars
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<luke-jr> apparently they also wrote the initial wallet on bc.i company time, so it might even be copyright infringement
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<gmaxwell> ironbutt: they just don't like anyone who calls out their dishonesty.
<ironbutt> yes, i know that thing. ironically tdev sockpuppet account was found via transaction activity
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<gmaxwell> From the very first release they lied about their privacy features. At first, I was willing to give them some slack, because new beta thing... but at some point it's not okay to keep describing things as highly private when they're really not.
<gmaxwell> and esp when it started becoming clear that if anyone said anything even vaguely negative (like just criticising that they should better describe their limitations) they're go viciously on the attack
<k3tan> gmaxwell, at this point, is there anything they could do to change your mind about them? or that's it, it's over?
<ironbutt> i'm afraid they don't care
<gmaxwell> k3tan: building a long history of radical honesty about the limitations of their approach would be a good start.
<luke-jr> speaking for myself, I don't think I would trust them no matter what they did at this point
<gmaxwell> indeed.
<gmaxwell> (my indeed was to the 'they don't care')
<gmaxwell> Their whole stich is marketing to people who want the privacy brand but don't actually know or care much about the privacy reality.
<k3tan> do other 'hot' wallets have the same limitations? or just samourai?
<gmaxwell> Someone selling fake privacy will always have an advantage in that market: Good privacy software is well aware of its limitations and shoves it in the user's face.
<luke-jr> fake security too
<luke-jr> they claim to let you use your own trusted node, but in reality it doesn't
<ironbutt> k3tan: 'hot' means popular?
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<gmaxwell> AFAICT samourai privacy properties are essentially similar to electrum, but where electrum doesn't make false claims, they do. And electrum has many users so users of it don't stand out.  Also you can run your own electrum server, which potentially gives you actually good privacy.
<k3tan> no hot meaning like an android/ios or desktop, not in cold storage basically
<k3tan> or not in a hardware wallet
<ironbutt> yes. you can. Electrum + Electrs + Core are very robust
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<k3tan> yeah im running electrum with electrum-personal-server
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<k3tan> gmaxwell, any comments on blockstream's green wallet re the limitations? similar to electrum/samourai?
<ironbutt> not all. but new Eclair besides of it LN capabilities allow to select your own Electrum server to connect to
<ironbutt> also, i like new green
<gmaxwell> k3tan: can't run your own server (currently) AFAIK, but I haven't looked at their new stuff at all.
<k3tan> so your problem is not really the software/code itself, but how they market it?
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<gmaxwell> k3tan: Well I have no idea about "the code" -- the server, which is a substantial part of it, is closed source.
<k3tan> well, yeah that's true.
<ironbutt> k3tan: in new green you can chose a node and select SPV on android
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<gmaxwell> I don't know if its behavior is safe or not, but I do know they're outright dishonest about it, and behave in harassing/threatening ways towards anyone who dares be a bit critical.
<k3tan> i suppose when you have a huge OG such as yourself criticising, it'd bruise an ego.
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<luke-jr> I wonder if their server is just a wrapper around bc.i <.<
<luke-jr> k3tan: usually the sane response is to fix the problem
<gmaxwell> it's not even so much about me, I started speaking up when I saw them attacking random nobodies and I realized that they were effectively supressing very justified criticism.
<gmaxwell> luke-jr: their original software just called home to bc.i... less surprising now that we know a bit about who created it.
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<luke-jr> gmaxwell: right, and iirc they only (apparently) fixed that due to overwhelming criticism -  but maybe they just moved it to a server?
<gmaxwell> luke-jr: also if you recall, even before it was released it was given top billing on kristov atlas' bitcoin privacy project report.  The report was garbage enough on its face...
<luke-jr> yeah, I remember that
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<gmaxwell> looks even worse now that we know that he was shilling his own wallet
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<ghost43> it's his wallet?!
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<gmaxwell> ghost43: it looks like it, it's several ex-bc.i people.
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<gmaxwell> and he left bc.i at the right time, and the history of it is full of him announcing it. e.g. https://twitter.com/kristovatlas/status/719575153844350976
<k3tan> gmaxwell, have you looked into wasabi wallet?
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<gmaxwell> some, -- it appears to actually be a lot closer to what samourai claims to be than samourai is...
<gmaxwell> there might be awful bugs in it or whatever, but its design actually improves privacy, it's not just snake oil.
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