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JaysonSunshine

#debates: rape culture, mental discipline, veganism, power

JaysonSunshine
Dec 11th, 2019
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  1.  
  2. CaveGuy
  3. yeah! his ass is getting pounded in jail
  4. EonEcho
  5. Joking about rape is a poor idea.
  6. EonEcho
  7. Prison is one of the few places in American culture that actually has a rape culture.
  8. CharmlessMan
  9. he wasn't joking, i think he was being serious
  10. 12:42 EonEcho
  11. Yes, most humans have atrocious empathy and delight in the mistreatment of others.
  12. EonEcho
  13. It's an interesting question why we're such a savage, child race.
  14. 12:42 CharmlessMan
  15. maybe they get it from that God fella
  16. 12:42 EonEcho
  17. There are no gods.
  18. CharmlessMan
  19. an atheist without a sense of humour?
  20. barabbas` has left IRC (Ping timeout)
  21. CharmlessMan
  22. that's unusual
  23. EonEcho
  24. The child, savage Jewish god of the Tanakh was a totem for their child, savage impulses.
  25. EonEcho
  26. See what you did there?
  27. EonEcho
  28. You equated your sense of humor with 'sense of humor' -- the way you emote is the correct way to emote.
  29. TomatoMiso
  30. most humans? yeah no
  31. CharmlessMan
  32. i think you are misunderstanding what humour actually is
  33. EonEcho
  34. TomatoMiso: There's room for disagreement on that point.
  35. CharmlessMan
  36. making a joke doesn't mean you delight in the mistreatment of others and have zero empathy
  37. TomatoMiso
  38. EonEcho: wasn't much of a point
  39. EonEcho
  40. TomatoMiso: That seems clearly false.
  41. CharmlessMan
  42. oh it's Llania
  43. CharmlessMan
  44. figures
  45. TomatoMiso
  46. oh
  47. TomatoMiso
  48. makes sense now
  49. CharmlessMan
  50. do you have to come on with a different screen name every fucking time?
  51. EonEcho
  52. CharmlessMan: I agree people make jokes for at least several reasons, some of which aren't because they delight in the mistreatment of others.
  53. CharmlessMan
  54. you can put me on ignore now
  55. CharmlessMan
  56. cheers
  57. EonEcho
  58. One of the important motivations for making 'jokes' is as a safer way to express their desires to harm others.
  59. EonEcho
  60. TomatoMiso: There are clear lines of evidence of argumentation that support, at minimum, a substantial portion of humans having atrocious empathy and delight in the mistreatment of others.
  61. TomatoMiso
  62. everyone isn't like you
  63. EonEcho
  64. https://youtu.be/kquBS_VpRZ4?t=2870
  65.  
  66. EonEcho
  67. TomatoMiso: I put you on ignore for your fallacy.
  68. EonEcho
  69. Let's do three weeks.
  70. TomatoMiso
  71. nobody cares
  72. CharmlessMan
  73. lol
  74. TomatoMiso
  75. especially me :)
  76. ProfFarnsworth has left ()
  77. CharmlessMan
  78. i don't think llania cares whether we care or not
  79. EonEcho
  80. At minimum, that was a tu quoque fallacy.
  81. CharmlessMan
  82. i said you can put me on ignore
  83. EonEcho
  84. It was also an ad hominem, and arguably a non sequitur fallacy.
  85. EonEcho
  86. CharmlessMan: I respond in FIFO ordering, as it builds mental discipline.
  87. EonEcho
  88. That is the most important thing one can focus on in many conversations, as we are always with our own minds, but with others less often.
  89. EonEcho
  90. CharmlessMan: You used the phrase "zero empathy", however, nobody said zero empathy.
  91. EonEcho
  92. That is a good thing for your reflect on to promote mindfulness.
  93. CharmlessMan
  94. i'm not wasting my time with you
  95. EonEcho
  96. I said "atrocious empathy", which, on a [0,1] scale would map to low values, and not -- in many cases -- zero.
  97. EonEcho
  98. Your content ended at that point.
  99. EonEcho
  100. You have requested to be placed on ignore. Your request is denied, as my usage of ignore is for my benefit, not yours.
  101. CharmlessMan
  102. wtf is atrocious empathy anyway, is that even a thing
  103. EonEcho
  104. CharmlessMan: You collapsed within about three minutes of discussing a topic, and then you made numerous fallacies.
  105. EonEcho
  106. CharmlessMan: I placed you on ignore for two weeks for collapsing in about three minutes and then making numerous fallacies, as it's important to hold you accountable for your errors in thinking when they disrupt a social interaction.
  107. EonEcho
  108. It was arguably six minutes, looking at the log.
  109. EonEcho
  110. Though, you can argue for three minutes on the basis of the humor comment.
  111. CaveGuy
  112. https://news.yahoo.com/trump-caves-kim-jong-un-173100074.html
  113. EonEcho
  114. One argument for a majority of people having atrocious empathy is that >95% of humans are carnists.
  115. Hedrin
  116. yawn
  117. Hedrin
  118. be less boring
  119. EonEcho
  120. Even though the practice of animal eating, in modernity, is unnecessary, unhealthy, destructive to our climate, an inefficient usage of fresh water, and creates tremendous suffering for billions of lives each year, the typical human almost never thinks about whether they should be destroying those animals.
  121. EonEcho
  122. From the vegan perspective, they don't think of that because their empathy is lacking.
  123. EonEcho
  124. Given I was a carnist most of my life, and I am now a vegan, I can reflect on my own personal case and I note that I didn't think about it because my empathy was lacking.
  125. Hedrin
  126. boring.
  127. EonEcho
  128. Also, my carnist experience seems to have been pretty representative of carnists in my region.
  129. Hedrin
  130. They wrote a song for you -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQynViAF6Ds
  131.  
  132. EonEcho
  133. This argument is a corollary of arguing that "most humans have atrocious reasoning capacity" on the basis that >95% of humans are theistic.
  134. ForexTrader has joined ([email protected])
  135. Raven`X has changed mode: +v ForexTrader
  136. EonEcho
  137. Which is reasonably standard in atheism.
  138. Hedrin
  139. How long have you been a vegan? 2 days?
  140. CaveGuy
  141. https://www.causes.com/actions/2598838-sign-the-petition-to-u-s-congress/invitations/recruiter/61767555
  142. EonEcho
  143. One primary counter-argument I'm familiar with comes from psychiatry: American psychiatry is reluctant to label as mental illness any practice which is very widespread, such as theism.
  144. EonEcho
  145. Hedrin: Relevance?
  146. Hedrin
  147. Nailed it.
  148. ForexTrader is now known as Guest53871
  149. EonEcho
  150. For example, to be classified as having delusional thoughts, in American psychiatry, my understanding is that at least two criteria must be met: 1) your beliefs are resistant to evidence AND 2) they're not widely held in your community
  151. Hedrin
  152. Go eat a steak and wash it down with a glass of meatballs.
  153. EonEcho
  154. So, if you believe you're being gang-stalked by a cabal for your insights into a hidden plot, that might be resistant to evidence AND not widely held in your community.
  155. EonEcho
  156. If, however, you believe you talked to UniverseCreator in your head, that is resistant to evidence but is widely held in the community.
  157. EonEcho
  158. I tend to prefer a more objective standard for good thinking/pathology/delusion, and so I do feel comfortable noting that 95% of humans have deep foolishness, given their theism, at least once atheism is understood.
  159. EonEcho
  160. Just like I will accept that my current ways are foolish if a new standard is discovered that shows the inadequacy of my current ways.
  161. EonEcho
  162. Until that standard is demonstrated, this is the state of the art.
  163. EonEcho
  164. And I probably wouldn't classify theism as delusional 13k years ago.
  165. EonEcho
  166. Hedrin: I put you on ignore for two months for your rather severe mental problems you demonstrated today.
  167. Hans-McF
  168. Depending on the depravity of what people want, really perverted people might actually prefer filling up on horse manure than selecting the top flight solutions.
  169. EonEcho
  170. That you're experiencing, apparently, incredible distress because of another person's dietary practices is, to put it bluntly, extremely unhealthy.
  171. EonEcho
  172. Mostly you're just bored, of course, but there's more to it than that.
  173. EonEcho
  174. To note, distress from the vegan perspective towards carnism is essentially different than distress from a carnist towards veganism.
  175. EonEcho
  176. I can think of several, important ways in which this is true.
  177. EonEcho
  178. 1. About 95-99% of humans are carnist, so there is a lack of equivalency in how widespread the phenomenon is.
  179. EonEcho
  180. By analogy, it would be as if a heterosexual person -- who frequently expressed her heterosexuality and all of is delights -- became enraged when the ~5% of homosexual humans did the same.
  181. EonEcho
  182. We observe that behavior, of course, and most of correctly note those people are generally highly unwell people with low 'emotional intelligence'.
  183. EonEcho
  184. 2. The vector of distress from the vegan towards the carnist is through a 3rd-party -- namely the non-humans animals who are being destroyed who cannot meaningfully advocate for themselves against the superior power and intelligence of their human destroyers. Straightforward notions of advocacy -- an essential value in modernity, broadly speaking -- cause the concerned person to experience distress on their behalf.
  185. EonEcho
  186. This mechanism is not present in the carnist towards vegan perspective, here the dietary difference being more of a preference variation, e.g. I like chocolate ice cream and you like vanilla ice cream.
  187. EonEcho
  188. Have you ever encountered fellow humans who are personally insulting and quick to anger over preference variations, e.g. dietary preferences, movie preferences, or hobby preferences? They're almost universally low 'emotional intelligence' people, and generally right-wing, closed people.
  189. EonEcho
  190. 3. There is always a critical asymmetry because challenges to power and challenges by power to minority groups. Power tends to take care of itself, so it's not critical for us to ensure the rights of the powerful are being managed, as power generally does that directly. However, the rights of minorities are OFTEN violated by power, and so we must constantly be focused on the concerns of minority groups critiquing power.
  191. Guest53871 has left IRC (Ping timeout)
  192. EonEcho
  193. We see historical precedent in this from black-led civil rights groups asserting status quo political power in the US was/is white supremacist, for example, or in chants of "black lives matter".
  194. EonEcho
  195. There is not a symmetry is arguing "police lives matter", as police have tremendous power compared to the typical black person and their lives are already protected.
  196. EonEcho
  197. Again, note the power asymmetry between the 95-99% of humans who are carnist v. the 1-5% who are vegan. Your focus should be on being open to critiques from minority groups so that you don't find yourself living in a society that is revealed, perhaps later in your life or after you're dead, to have been some kind of equivalent to Jim Crow USA or Nazi Germany. If your impulse is to rush to defend the status quo, you're lik
  198. EonEcho
  199. ely being highly unethical.
  200. EonEcho
  201. In these three ways, the differences between distress from the vegan towards the carnist v from the carnist to the vegan are essential.
  202. EonEcho
  203. Hedrin: Upon considering my argument, I consider your speech to be equivalent to hate speech against LGBTQ people.
  204. EonEcho
  205. And so I have increased your ignore to three months.
  206. Dreamstwice has changed mode: +b *!*@c-71-193-10-61.hsd1.ca.comcast.net
  207. EonEcho
  208. My best guess as to why you did this is because you have atrocious empathy, in general, but your culture now punishes you if you do it against LGBTQ people -- not the case a few decades ago -- but doesn't yet punish you when it's done against vegans.
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