* Decision-making out loud

23:10	dreamSilentAnswer	guys
23:10		ventricularPipefitter PMs "Dreaming Sarah" ( So what, specifically, do you want to ask for advice on? )
23:10	dreamSilentAnswer	I'm not really ready to stop talking about this
23:10	bemusedHerbalist	since i specifically instructed my bardclone to shove skulls in his face something is obviously wrong.
23:10	dreamSilentAnswer	we need to figure things out before either of them comes back
23:11	tenaciousTheseus	Oh
23:11	tenaciousTheseus	You're with delayedMirth?
23:11	musicalDecay	If that's what you need.
23:12	mnemonicNecessity	An exposition would be helpful to ensure that I have all necessary information.
...
23:14		dreamSilentAnswer PMs ventricularPipefitter: (Ok maybe we should open a private channel then)
23:14		ventricularPipefitter PMs "D. Sarah" ( That would help me. )
23:15	tenaciousTheseus	That is a good sign, yes
23:15	ventricularPipefitter	Anyone that would like to hash this out is welcome to join myself and silentAnswer in the memo #doors


23:15		dreamSilentAnswer has joined the sidememo
23:17	dreamSilentAnswer	Hello?
23:17	tenaciousTheseus	Hello
23:18	mnemonicNecessity	I am not sure of what assistance I may be able to render, but if there is anything with which I can help, I will be more than happy to provide it.
23:18	dreamSilentAnswer	Well to start with
23:18	dreamSilentAnswer	Does anyone need a review of the situation?
23:18	ventricularPipefitter	There's a difference between 'smarter' and 'wiser' though, Sarah. That she's older and more experienced than you in some ways doesn't mean you don't have a right to make decisions.
23:18	ventricularPipefitter	Or disagree with her.
23:19	tenaciousTheseus	This is your life too
23:20	dreamSilentAnswer	It's my life or it's her life
23:21	dreamSilentAnswer	Or apparently it's someone else's life
23:21	dreamSilentAnswer	How am I allowed to make a decision like that?
23:21	ventricularPipefitter	You're a Player.
23:21	mnemonicNecessity	Weigh what you consider a life to be worth.
23:21	tenaciousTheseus	Tough decisions are what we're made of
23:21	mnemonicNecessity	And make a decision that you can live with in the morning.
23:22	dreamSilentAnswer	I don't know
23:22	dreamSilentAnswer	I mean
23:22	dreamSilentAnswer	I think Eleria's more important than either of us
23:22	dreamSilentAnswer	Probably
23:22	mnemonicNecessity	Is she?
23:22	mnemonicNecessity	How do you measure a person's worth?
23:22	dreamSilentAnswer	But if we choose her she might not actually die
23:22	tenaciousTheseus	No
23:22	tenaciousTheseus	She'll just be a tool for the Others
23:22	tenaciousTheseus	Which is kind of worse
23:23	dreamSilentAnswer	If it came down to that, there would be another option
23:23	tenaciousTheseus	Oh?
23:23	dreamSilentAnswer	The deal wouldn't be voided if she actually died
23:23	dreamSilentAnswer	But that just puts it on the table as an equal option to the other two
23:24	dreamSilentAnswer	Somebody dies no matter what
23:24	tenaciousTheseus	That's not really a better option
23:24	mnemonicNecessity	Well, yes.  That's the nature of these problems.
23:24	tenaciousTheseus	And you'll have cheated the Others
23:24	tenaciousTheseus	That's not a good thing
23:25	tenaciousTheseus	They won't take that lying down
23:25	dreamSilentAnswer	We don't even know for sure that we can avoid paying their price
23:25	tenaciousTheseus	They won't take that lying down
23:26	dreamSilentAnswer	Do you really think that letting them do what they want would be worse than dying?
23:27	tenaciousTheseus	Yes
23:27	dreamSilentAnswer	Then it's not her
23:28	dreamSilentAnswer	It's either me or awake-me
23:28	ventricularPipefitter	Well.
23:29	ventricularPipefitter	Do you know why she chose what she did?
23:30	dreamSilentAnswer	Because she believed it was the right thing to do
23:31	ventricularPipefitter	Why'd she think that?
23:31	dreamSilentAnswer	Because she thinks they're people
23:31	dreamSilentAnswer	The imps
23:32	dreamSilentAnswer	I think she still does
23:32	dreamSilentAnswer	Which is why she's so upset when she sees everything going wrong
23:33	dreamSilentAnswer	It's like there's not even really a choice to her
23:33	dreamSilentAnswer	If you accept them as being people one option is probably always going to be too horrible to consider
23:35	ventricularPipefitter	That sounds like her.
23:39	dreamSilentAnswer	But
23:39	dreamSilentAnswer	I don't really believe the same thing
23:39	ventricularPipefitter	Tell me how you think.
23:39	dreamSilentAnswer	And anyways this is about killing one person either way
23:39	ventricularPipefitter	Unfortunately.
23:41	dreamSilentAnswer	So
23:41	dreamSilentAnswer	How do I think, or What do I think
23:43	ventricularPipefitter	What, sorry.
23:44	ventricularPipefitter	People are generally /very/ /bad/ at explaining how they think.
23:44	dreamSilentAnswer	Well
23:45	dreamSilentAnswer	I know that other people know more about me on many things
23:45	dreamSilentAnswer	So I guess I trust their judgement a bit more than her
23:45	dreamSilentAnswer	When Timmy tells me he thinks the imps aren't sapient, well
23:45	dreamSilentAnswer	He'd know more than me since he can see the shinies, so I believe him
23:46	dreamSilentAnswer	So I think if I'd been the one given the first Choice I would have gone the other way
23:46	dreamSilentAnswer	The only people who are both important and capable of being saved are the Players
23:49	ventricularPipefitter	...we're the only constants in our world, really.
23:49	ventricularPipefitter	If Timmy hadn't been able to say one way or the other, for the imps, would that change your opinion?
23:50	dreamSilentAnswer	Umm
23:50	dreamSilentAnswer	I would have come to you guys
23:50	tenaciousTheseus	Does that matter right now?
23:51	dreamSilentAnswer	I don't even know
23:51	dreamSilentAnswer	Does it?
23:51	tenaciousTheseus	I have no idea
23:51	ventricularPipefitter	Eh. Point.
23:51	tenaciousTheseus	Did you point out that the imps exist to be killed?
23:52	dreamSilentAnswer	Which would you rather have around--the kind of person who would risk everyone's lives by ignoring advice, or the kind of person who would accept that imps aren't people just because someone told her so?
23:52	ventricularPipefitter	I'm asking questions to figure out what you think, really. And why?
23:52	dreamSilentAnswer	Whether they're right or not
23:53	ventricularPipefitter	Ask me that question again with something good about each of you.
23:53	tenaciousTheseus	Could be just me
23:53	tenaciousTheseus	But
23:53	tenaciousTheseus	I would want the second one around, because it would leave less room for us to due
23:54	dreamSilentAnswer	Someone who would seek and accept advice on moral issues or someone who would do the right thing even when it hurts her then
23:55	ventricularPipefitter	...you know, you've sort of just contradicted yourself with those two descriptions of bad/good awake sarah.
23:55	ventricularPipefitter	But...
23:55	ventricularPipefitter	The second one.
23:56	dreamSilentAnswer	You're right
23:56	dreamSilentAnswer	They're both me and they're both her
23:58	ventricularPipefitter	I thought so.
23:58	ventricularPipefitter	But. Really.
23:59	ventricularPipefitter	There isn't really any other way to live in this game, except by being as true as possible to what you believe is right.
23:59	tenaciousTheseus	I would have thought placing survival highest would be the best way
00:00	tenaciousTheseus	The graveyards are littered with men true to their beliefs
00:00	dreamSilentAnswer	He said LIVE, not survive
00:00	tenaciousTheseus	Hard to live if you don't survive
00:02	ventricularPipefitter	Adam, Sburb kills us for making the easy choice instead of the right one.
00:02	ventricularPipefitter	'Survival' isn't a matter divorced from ideals or values.
00:03	tenaciousTheseus	You'd be surprised
00:03	ventricularPipefitter	Well. Your track record speaks for itself. And so does mine.
00:03	tenaciousTheseus	And survival is not always the easy choice
00:11	dreamSilentAnswer	So
00:12	dreamSilentAnswer	The question is what's the right thing to do
00:12	dreamSilentAnswer	But that can be put in two different ways
00:13	dreamSilentAnswer	It might be "Which of us would be a better person to have live to the next session"
00:13	dreamSilentAnswer	Or it might be "Is it better to save someone else or your own self?"
00:18	ventricularPipefitter	A lot of people say it is, but a lot of people don't actually. I don't blame either choice categorically.
00:18	tenaciousTheseus	Sigh
00:19	tenaciousTheseus	We're not going to get anything substantial done, are we
00:20	ventricularPipefitter	What's 'substantial,' Adam?
00:20	tenaciousTheseus	I don't know
00:20	tenaciousTheseus	Something we decide on?
00:20	tenaciousTheseus	We actually make a choice?
00:21	ventricularPipefitter	It's Sarah's choice.
00:21	tenaciousTheseus	She makes a choice based off of our counsel?
00:21	tenaciousTheseus	I don't know
00:22	ventricularPipefitter	Sometimes having to talk it out to someone forces you to clarify and frame your position.
00:22	ventricularPipefitter	And you come to the answer yourself.
00:23	mnemonicNecessity	Provided that they venture their own opinion.
00:25	dreamSilentAnswer	My opinion? I'm pretty sure I've already said my opinion
00:25	dreamSilentAnswer	Awake me is smarter, stronger and more experienced than me.
00:26	dreamSilentAnswer	It's way more likely that she will survive the next session than me
00:26	dreamSilentAnswer	We both decided that on our own as soon as we figured out that I was probably going to die
00:26	dreamSilentAnswer	Long before the denizen
00:26	dreamSilentAnswer	before any prophecies at all even
00:26	mnemonicNecessity	Then the matter is set.
00:26	dreamSilentAnswer	err
00:26	dreamSilentAnswer	when we figured out that *one of us* was going to die
00:27	ventricularPipefitter	But.
00:27	ventricularPipefitter	You don't want to die, do you?
00:27	dreamSilentAnswer	No.
00:27	tenaciousTheseus	Does anyone?
00:27	tenaciousTheseus	...
00:28	tenaciousTheseus	Don't answer that
00:28	mnemonicNecessity	Response tabled.
00:29		ventricularPipefitter sighs.
00:29	ventricularPipefitter	I've been playing therapist all day. My brain is fried.
00:29	dreamSilentAnswer	Well, umm
00:29	dreamSilentAnswer	Thank you
00:29	dreamSilentAnswer	You've been very helpful
00:29	dreamSilentAnswer	Not just now, but always
00:29	dreamSilentAnswer	But especially now
00:29	tenaciousTheseus	No problem
00:30	tenaciousTheseus	Come back whenever you need help
00:30	dreamSilentAnswer	Yes, you too tenthe!
00:30	dreamSilentAnswer	Actually no
00:30	dreamSilentAnswer	I should be calling you Adam
00:30	tenaciousTheseus	Hm
00:30	tenaciousTheseus	Guess I should call you Sarah, then
00:31	dreamSilentAnswer	Careful though
00:31	dreamSilentAnswer	You can't call us both Sarah, can you?
00:31	tenaciousTheseus	I guess not
00:31	tenaciousTheseus	I'll figure it out
00:32	dreamSilentAnswer	I'm being silly
00:32	ventricularPipefitter	Why can't I?
00:32	ventricularPipefitter	I have been for weeks.
00:32	dreamSilentAnswer	You can just call us awake-sarah and dream-sarah
00:32	dreamSilentAnswer	problem solved
00:32	ventricularPipefitter	I prefer 'Sarah,' for whoever I'm talking to at the time.
00:33	ventricularPipefitter	You can PM me or say my full handle in chat to ping me, by the way.
00:34	ventricularPipefitter	If I"m online and distracted, or online but not connected to the memos, I'll hear it and come in.
00:34	dreamSilentAnswer	Ok well
00:34	dreamSilentAnswer	I think we can agree on one thing at least
00:34	ventricularPipefitter	We can?
00:35	dreamSilentAnswer	I am NOT going to make this decision the same way awake-me made hers
00:35	dreamSilentAnswer	I am going to talk to her about it
00:35	dreamSilentAnswer	Right now, even
00:35	tenaciousTheseus	Mmm
00:35	dreamSilentAnswer	How's that for reaching a decision?
00:35	ventricularPipefitter	I think it's important.
00:36	ventricularPipefitter	Tell us how it goes.
00:36	dreamSilentAnswer	Ok I will, uhh
00:36	dreamSilentAnswer	what's your name again?
00:37	ventricularPipefitter	Ross.
00:37	ventricularPipefitter	Ross Eberhardt, but some people like to use 'Pipes,'
00:37	ventricularPipefitter	Go with what you like.
00:38	dreamSilentAnswer	Ok Ross
00:38	dreamSilentAnswer	I'll talk to you again after I've talked to awake me
00:38	dreamSilentAnswer	Or possibly even WITH her
00:38	dreamSilentAnswer	We've been meaning to see if we can both come on chat with voice-to-text and hand-holding
00:40		dreamSilentAnswer has left the memo