(2:33:08 AM) Shouta: my precious CSa
(2:33:15 AM) Shouta: CSa CSa CSa
(2:33:35 AM) Donkey|Work: CSa zundas
(2:34:05 AM) Shouta: If we could do that, Kou would be like the most damaging unit in the game
(2:34:17 AM) Donkey|Work: SS rank
(2:34:22 AM) Donkey|Work: that shit is stupid fast
(2:39:44 AM) Skitzofranik|Work: who is kou? strike?
(2:40:45 AM) Skitzofranik|Work: i need a more broken suit than tg. sv makes my brain hurt
(2:41:01 AM) Donkey|Work: it's the gp01a
(2:42:12 AM) Shouta: Yeah GP01Fb
(2:42:34 AM) Shouta: It's considered B rank but pretty very playable
(2:42:37 AM) Donkey|Work: yeah that one xD
(2:42:45 AM) Shouta: He's got some scary damage
(2:42:49 AM) Donkey|Work: thought it was C
(2:43:02 AM) Donkey|Work: not like it matters if you can beast though
(2:43:11 AM) TheBrett: C.
(2:43:22 AM) Shouta: Oh yeah, I forgot there was a C
(2:43:25 AM) Skitzofranik|Work: barrel roll to the top of the tier list nig
(2:43:37 AM) Shouta: I usually truncate the middle
(2:43:59 AM) Shouta: move A to S and make it a >
(2:44:28 AM) Donkey|Work: alrighty, catch you crazy cats later
(2:44:34 AM) Shouta: later donkey
(2:44:37 AM) Skitzofranik|Work: thats funny i dont see anything below the s line :)
(2:44:58 AM) Shouta: proving mah point!
(2:45:00 AM) Shouta: ;)
(2:46:51 AM) Skitzofranik|Work: there are like 8 suits in this game to me: fc, quant, master, tg, ij, tank, zaku, and cheridum because he is fun to troll with
(2:46:52 AM) Dunpeal [~Dunpeal@p57B2F551.dip.t-dialin.net] entered the room.
(2:47:08 AM) Dunpeal: yo sup
(2:47:16 AM) Skitzofranik|Work: HotDickings
(2:47:21 AM) TheBrett: do you usually find yourself publicizing tier lists or something, shouta?
(2:47:27 AM) Dunpeal: shouta finishied your new rig already?
(2:47:37 AM) Shouta: Dun: yeah
(2:47:41 AM) Shouta: Brett: As in telling folks?
(2:47:48 AM) Lostconfused|work: I have yet to see anyone troll with Cherudim
(2:47:49 AM) Shouta: usually if they want to know
(2:47:50 AM) Dunpeal: yo brett how ya doin
(2:48:07 AM) Shouta: I make the caveat that it's not like a fighting game tier list though
(2:48:08 AM) TheBrett: sup dunpeal
(2:48:12 AM) TheBrett: im doing good
(2:48:28 AM) TheBrett: about to sleep actually though
(2:48:29 AM) TheBrett: 3am here
(2:48:29 AM) TheBrett: :/
(2:48:31 AM) TheBrett: nite.
(2:48:40 AM) Dunpeal: nite
(2:48:55 AM) Dunpeal: timezones are a bitcg
(2:49:15 AM) Shouta: Because the game has so many variables and isn't nearly as restrained as fighting game, going hard on the tier list for match-ups isn't nearly as good
(2:49:38 AM) Dunpeal: well its a 2 v 2 game
(2:49:50 AM) Skitzofranik|Work: fc ignores the logic of tier lists
(2:49:57 AM) Skitzofranik|Work: as does quant
(2:50:02 AM) Shouta: There is a bit of that for FC lol
(2:50:15 AM) rivals|work: who needs a partner when you're fc
(2:50:31 AM) Shouta: Quant and master I think are fine for the most part
(2:50:41 AM) Dunpeal: FC always died on my side :/
(2:50:46 AM) Shouta: FC is way too powerful for his stats as a whole
(2:50:58 AM) Dunpeal: i dont believe the FC hype
(2:51:05 AM) TheBrett: even though there were more qants than FC at dogfight, rite?
(2:51:09 AM) TheBrett: :|
(2:51:15 AM) Lostconfused|work: Quant and master are only difficult to handle if you can't work with your partner
(2:51:32 AM) Shouta: uh yeah?
(2:51:49 AM) Shouta: FC is still more powerful than quant if you ask me but Quant has a lot of pluses that make it easier to play
(2:51:50 AM) Shouta: and get in
(2:52:24 AM) Dunpeal: like the shield bits :|
(2:52:38 AM) Lostconfused|work: shield bits are not a big deal
(2:52:45 AM) Lostconfused|work: unless you forget about them, haha
(2:53:00 AM) Dunpeal: do they decrease over time?
(2:53:02 AM) Shouta: They don't take much but strategic use of them allows for a free melee
(2:53:22 AM) TheBrett: or a free landing
(2:53:22 AM) Shouta: and the only thing it doesn't block is a bazooka shot
(2:53:30 AM) Shouta: yeah
(2:53:35 AM) TheBrett: welp
(2:53:42 AM) Lostconfused|work: Dragon is interesting against Quant, good options to take down shield bits and punish melee
(2:53:44 AM) Shouta: FC's mantle is great but only good against beams
(2:53:51 AM) Dunpeal: quant is really difficult for me as a god gundam player
(2:54:01 AM) TheBrett: qant was pretty dominant at dogfight
(2:54:02 AM) Lostconfused|work: work with your partner?
(2:54:16 AM) TheBrett: much more so than FC
(2:54:38 AM) Dunpeal: next time we play you show me how its done lost
(2:54:38 AM) Shouta: well, Quant also has been aruond longer than FC as well
(2:55:00 AM) Shouta: but yeah, Quant pluses make it a more strategic unit to use in a situation like dogfight
(2:55:40 AM) TheBrett: at top jp level i think shield bits are actually too hard to debunk
(2:55:44 AM) Dunpeal: btw whats good about FC except the beam barrier
(2:55:50 AM) TheBrett: everything.
(2:55:53 AM) Shouta: In the store qualifier I was in, there weren't any FCs partially because it had just released and folks were still getting used to it
(2:55:58 AM) Lostconfused|work: speed, damage, melee
(2:56:03 AM) Shouta: pretty much
(2:56:15 AM) TheBrett: well literally just.
(2:56:16 AM) TheBrett: everything.
(2:56:30 AM) Dunpeal: what about ranged?
(2:56:33 AM) Shouta: The only downpoint is that he has just that BR to work with but that thing has a manual reload
(2:56:48 AM) Shouta: and you can just rush the shit out of folks most of the time using that as coverl ol
(2:57:01 AM) TheBrett: ranged is amazing too, dunpeal
(2:57:07 AM) TheBrett: manual reload even when you're not at 0
(2:57:09 AM) TheBrett: AC cancels into itself
(2:57:11 AM) KyouG: Dun:  http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/adamosgp/Forum%20Reactions/leon-stansfield-everyone.gif
(2:57:13 AM) TheBrett: whip is stupid good
(2:57:16 AM) KyouG: replace everyone with "everything"
(2:57:19 AM) TheBrett: split shot is amazing
(2:57:56 AM) Shouta: From a vs FC perspective, fighting him at range is probably the best solution though
(2:58:15 AM) Lostconfused|work: the up whip is probably the hardest thing to deal with
(2:58:20 AM) Dunpeal: hmmm i think i should start looking for alternative units
(2:58:27 AM) Skitzofranik|Work: brb meeting
(2:58:41 AM) Shouta: at close range, he's way harder to deal with at least as it is right now
(2:58:58 AM) Shouta: That'll change with FB though
(2:59:04 AM) Lostconfused|work: i haven't played sinanju at all lately, maybe I should get back to it sometime
(2:59:05 AM) DonkeyPhone [~donkeysho@82.132.139.166] entered the room.
(2:59:13 AM) Shouta: Brett: On that note, wtf is with them giving Quant 200 shield bits in FB >=|
(2:59:19 AM) TheBrett: not melee absorb at least
(2:59:26 AM) TheBrett: i think its kind of dumb though
(2:59:34 AM) Shouta: yeah
(2:59:44 AM) Dunpeal: i like that
(2:59:52 AM) Shouta: I wish I could've gone to the loke tests like I did with EXVS
(2:59:53 AM) Dunpeal: no more free melee
(2:59:55 AM) Skitzofranik|Work left the room (quit: Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client).
(3:00:07 AM) TheBrett: wouldn't you just wish you could play FB instead?
(3:00:10 AM) TheBrett: lol
(3:00:20 AM) Shouta: no, 'cause they haven't fixed DX yet >=|
(3:00:31 AM) TheBrett: huh
(3:00:39 AM) Dunpeal: what did they do to DX again?
(3:00:43 AM) TheBrett: is he broken in the loketest or something?
(3:00:53 AM) Lostconfused|work: just remove all attacks from DX, every button is an assist
(3:00:55 AM) Shouta: He's really bad right now going from the thread
(3:01:08 AM) Shouta: They moved the saber throw to CSa with some half-assed stats
(3:01:16 AM) TheBrett: ah
(3:01:26 AM) Shouta: leopard assist has no shield prop like Accguy's assist
(3:01:33 AM) Shouta: Airmaster needs buffing
(3:01:35 AM) TheBrett: i dunno i would rather wish i could be in japan to play FB rather than be in japan to go to a loketest and wait in line for hella hours
(3:01:46 AM) Shouta: They weakened the Sat cannon
(3:01:51 AM) Shouta: a few other things
(3:02:03 AM) Shouta: Well, when FB comes out in wide release of course
(3:02:12 AM) Shouta: but I want to try the new units toooo
(3:02:18 AM) Dunpeal: well brett its just the fact that loketest is very time limited
(3:02:20 AM) TheBrett: just wait another month.
(3:02:42 AM) Dunpeal: and you got to play an in progress game
(3:02:51 AM) Shouta: There is that too
(3:02:55 AM) TheBrett: i dunno
(3:03:05 AM) Shouta: They do ask you to write comments
(3:03:15 AM) TheBrett: i guess its kinda fun to participate in once or twice
(3:03:21 AM) Dunpeal: no console release announced yet rite?
(3:03:24 AM) TheBrett: nope
(3:03:25 AM) Shouta: nope
(3:03:31 AM) Lostconfused|work: won't be for a long time either
(3:03:51 AM) Shouta: Oh yeah, they also nerfed unicorn a bit as well
(3:03:51 AM) DonkeyPhone: PS9
(3:03:57 AM) Shouta: There goes my 3ks
(3:03:58 AM) Lostconfused|work: well
(3:04:09 AM) TheBrett: but yeah regarding qant I agree I personally dont feel as much of a problem against that suit as FC at my level, but it definitely seems like top jps have issues with that suit
(3:04:19 AM) Dunpeal: hurr down witj the bean mags
(3:04:23 AM) TheBrett: I feel like some issues people have with FC are able to be mitigated a bit as you go up
(3:04:33 AM) Shouta: yeah
(3:04:51 AM) TheBrett: the craze regarding qant hasnt died down and everyone seems to agree qant = FC tier
(3:04:55 AM) TheBrett: and some even say qant > FC
(3:04:58 AM) TheBrett: not sure about that
(3:05:05 AM) TheBrett: its true that qant has been out longer
(3:05:07 AM) TheBrett: BUT
(3:05:08 AM) Shouta: I played a lot of FCs before I left Japan so I have a lot of practice against quant and FC
(3:05:19 AM) Shouta: but yeah, time issue for a lot of folks
(3:05:24 AM) TheBrett: well
(3:05:41 AM) TheBrett: qant had been
(3:05:44 AM) TheBrett: a lot lower on the tier list
(3:05:45 AM) Dunpeal: did FC get nerfed in FB?
(3:05:46 AM) TheBrett: than FC
(3:05:48 AM) TheBrett: for quite a while
(3:06:05 AM) Shouta: Dun: kinda, they lowered a lot of his abilities
(3:06:07 AM) TheBrett: even not regarding FC,
(3:06:15 AM) TheBrett: there was MUCH LESS destiny
(3:06:18 AM) TheBrett: and barely any SF
(3:06:27 AM) TheBrett: in the dogfight qualifiers
(3:06:41 AM) TheBrett: and both those suits have been regarded higher than qant since the dawn of time
(3:06:42 AM) Shouta: I don't understand why folks would have rated Quant lower than FC myself
(3:07:00 AM) TheBrett: didnt you just say you thought FC was much better than qant?
(3:07:13 AM) Shouta: Brett: I didn't say I'd rate it higher
(3:08:06 AM) Shouta: I'd put them pretty close to each other but FC has the stat imbalance if you ask me
(3:08:14 AM) Dunpeal: but you said FC is better
(3:08:24 AM) Shouta: yeah
(3:08:25 AM) TheBrett: so you think FC isn't fine at low level or something, but at high level you think they're both fine?
(3:08:34 AM) Shouta: oh no
(3:08:40 AM) TheBrett: because you definitely said qant was "fine"
(3:08:42 AM) Shouta: I think FC at low is broken beyond fuck
(3:08:52 AM) TheBrett: so i'm trying to understand what you meant by that
(3:09:11 AM) Shouta: at higher levels, where players have moer experience, it evens out a bit more
(3:09:13 AM) TheBrett: i'm also confused about what stat imbalance means
(3:09:27 AM) Shouta: Brett: Speed, damage, life,
(3:09:38 AM) Shouta: attack speed
(3:09:38 AM) Shouta: etc
(3:09:51 AM) TheBrett: it makes no sense for a suit to be only slightly better than another but then have much more "stat imbalance"
(3:09:54 AM) TheBrett: to me anyways
(3:10:11 AM) TheBrett: wouldn't that just make it better overall?
(3:10:40 AM) Shouta: No, becaus I think quant has better techniques that allow it to fight well
(3:10:55 AM) Shouta: well, a lot with the shield bits
(3:11:21 AM) TheBrett: why would stats bear any significance at all then if you're not also taking into account other elements which let you evaluate a suits ability?
(3:11:32 AM) TheBrett: thats like saying SF sucks because its HP is low
(3:11:39 AM) Shouta: because FC does have those as well
(3:12:07 AM) TheBrett: so if FC has equvalent tools to qant but also has a lot of "stat imbalance" wouldn't that make FC significantly better than qant?
(3:12:14 AM) Dunpeal left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 204 seconds).
(3:12:25 AM) Shouta: I didn't say it was equivalent
(3:12:27 AM) Dunpeal [~Dunpeal@p57B2F551.dip.t-dialin.net] entered the room.
(3:12:31 AM) Shouta: i said it was pretty damn close
(3:12:59 AM) TheBrett: but if you're evaluating how good suit A is from suit B by taking into account tools, stats, movelists, etc, what is the point of even distinguishing this concept of stat imbalance
(3:13:12 AM) Shouta: but if you go back to what I said earlier, comparing suits individually like in a tier list, it's a little wonky
(3:13:33 AM) Shouta: because there are too many variables in a game like this
(3:13:36 AM) TheBrett: well this is tier list in terms of suit compatibility at high level, generally regarded for dogfight
(3:13:39 AM) Shouta: 2v2 nature, 3D, etc
(3:13:50 AM) TheBrett: and why does the viability of a tier list have anything to do with what i was asking o_O
(3:13:57 AM) Shouta: brb
(3:15:03 AM) Dunpeal: btw. are there any team tier lists?
(3:15:05 AM) Skitzofranik|Work [Mibbit@198.6.50.15] entered the room.
(3:15:12 AM) Shouta: ok back
(3:15:20 AM) Skitzofranik|Work: me too what'd i miss
(3:15:21 AM) Shouta: It's a bit of my view of the tier list
(3:15:43 AM) Shouta: same rank units fight at the same ability but have different pluses and advantages
(3:16:05 AM) TheBrett: pluses and minuses?
(3:16:09 AM) TheBrett: but yeah, go on
(3:16:14 AM) Shouta: ah yeah
(3:16:15 AM) Shouta: brain fart
(3:16:31 AM) TheBrett: okay, i follow
(3:16:40 AM) TheBrett: so how does this relate to the earlier question i asked
(3:16:42 AM) Shouta: anyway, so like FC has stat imbalances that improve his status but I think Quant has technique and tools
(3:17:01 AM) Dunpeal: ...
(3:17:15 AM) Shouta: That balances it out to me
(3:17:30 AM) Shouta: just because they're the same tier does not mean the occupy the same strengths
(3:17:37 AM) TheBrett: i dont think anyone said that.
(3:18:04 AM) TheBrett: could you give me some examples of FC stat imbalances?
(3:18:07 AM) Dunpeal: ok i guess the app is going crazy again
(3:18:20 AM) Shouta: uh, Sub N activation speed?
(3:18:26 AM) Shouta: The vertical whip
(3:18:28 AM) TheBrett: isnt that a tool?
(3:18:42 AM) Shouta: A tool but the speed at which it comes out is imbalanced
(3:18:45 AM) Shouta: and that's been changed for FB
(3:18:49 AM) TheBrett: but isnt it really the tool thats imbalanced?
(3:18:52 AM) Shouta: so I'm actually right
(3:19:02 AM) TheBrett: i dont doubt that the speed is stupid
(3:19:03 AM) Shouta: That's still a stat imbalance
(3:19:21 AM) Lostconfused|work: it depends on how you look at it
(3:19:28 AM) Lostconfused|work: a whip and what it does is a tool
(3:19:30 AM) TheBrett: but you're using this term as a universal term
(3:19:34 AM) Lostconfused|work: how fast it comes out or how much damage it does
(3:19:37 AM) Lostconfused|work: are it's stats
(3:19:41 AM) TheBrett: its not like everyone has a whip...
(3:20:06 AM) Shouta: but I see no point in separating tool imbalance and stat imbalance for this discussion
(3:20:11 AM) TheBrett: you're basically saying the frame data on some of FC's moves are really stupid, but since the moveset itself is unique, doesn't it just boil down to FC having stupid tools?
(3:20:24 AM) Shouta: but the tools define FC
(3:20:29 AM) Shouta: and is part of its stats....
(3:20:32 AM) TheBrett: what.
(3:20:40 AM) Lostconfused|work: ok this discussion is getting weird
(3:20:55 AM) TheBrett: please clarify what you mean by "stats"
(3:20:55 AM) Shouta: Do you think I'm just refering to speed, damage, life?
(3:21:00 AM) TheBrett: because you're confusing the hell out of me.
(3:21:12 AM) Lostconfused|work: I think you are Shouta
(3:21:33 AM) Shouta: look, I'm saying is that the imbalances in the tools = imbalances in the suit
(3:21:38 AM) Shouta: because it's a part of the unit
(3:22:21 AM) Shouta: separating the tools from the suit isn't meaningful
(3:22:29 AM) TheBrett: im still wondering what "stats" means
(3:22:31 AM) Lostconfused|work: well I don't get TheBrett either because I think the tool and its stats are separate things
(3:22:35 AM) Dunpeal left the room (quit: Quit: Dunpeal).
(3:22:43 AM) DonkeyPhone left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 190 seconds).
(3:22:53 AM) Shouta: Stats are like damage, correction, guidance, travel speed
(3:22:54 AM) Shouta: etc
(3:23:00 AM) TheBrett: lostconfused: I'm still confused about what "stats" are for shouta, which is why I'm asking so hopefully i wont confuse you either >_<
(3:23:07 AM) Dunpeal [~Dunpeal@p57B2F551.dip.t-dialin.net] entered the room.
(3:23:14 AM) Shouta: how about attributes to clear it up
(3:23:16 AM) Lostconfused|work: nah I am not confused by what you mean I just disagree with you
(3:23:20 AM) Dunpeal: kyou you done goufed
(3:23:29 AM) Shouta: oh god
(3:23:33 AM) Shouta: Dunpeal is now doing it
(3:23:43 AM) Dunpeal: at the head theres a t missing
(3:23:45 AM) TheBrett: lostconfused: i also believe they are seperate things.
(3:23:51 AM) TheBrett: i dont disagree with you.
(3:24:08 AM) magz|lapt [~theloafin@sjs-cc-wifi-1-1-lc-int.sjsu.edu] entered the room.
(3:24:09 AM) TheBrett: stats as in attributes
(3:24:15 AM) DonkeyPhone [~donkeysho@82.132.248.114] entered the room.
(3:24:18 AM) Lostconfused|work: synonyms
(3:24:23 AM) TheBrett: right except that
(3:24:38 AM) TheBrett: i think saying "the stats on FC whip are stupid, so FC stats are stupid" is a misleading statement
(3:24:38 AM) Lostconfused|work: stats just have a number assigned to them
(3:24:54 AM) Shouta: I do not because the whip is a part of FC
(3:25:09 AM) Shouta: if you separate the tools from the unit, what else do you have?
(3:25:18 AM) Shouta: running like crazy?
(3:25:39 AM) Lostconfused|work: well if that's your only problem then I would think you are making too much of a generalization
(3:25:47 AM) Shouta: I disgaree
(3:26:02 AM) TheBrett: well
(3:26:04 AM) Shouta: why is it a generalization to refer to the tools it has as separate from the unit?
(3:26:05 AM) TheBrett: normally i would just say
(3:26:15 AM) TheBrett: "the stats on FC whip are stupid. FC whip is stupid. it is part of what makes FC stupid"
(3:26:20 AM) Shouta: you can't interchange those tools
(3:26:44 AM) Shouta: Brett: That would be the logical conclusion from what I've said
(3:27:06 AM) TheBrett: the reason why i personally think stats shouldn't be used here
(3:27:13 AM) Dunpeal left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 202 seconds).
(3:27:15 AM) TheBrett: is because there ARE universal attributes
(3:27:26 AM) TheBrett: its just semantics
(3:27:41 AM) Shouta: I don't disagree that there are universal attributes
(3:27:50 AM) Dunpeal [~Dunpeal@p57B2F551.dip.t-dialin.net] entered the room.
(3:27:51 AM) TheBrett: so going back to this statement you made
(3:27:51 AM) Shouta: but these attributes in regards to the tools is the difference
(3:27:53 AM) TheBrett: Shouta: anyway, so like FC has stat imbalances that improve his status but I think Quant has technique and tools
(3:28:02 AM) TheBrett: based on your definition you're basically saying they both have good tools.
(3:28:10 AM) Shouta: no
(3:28:16 AM) Shouta: Here
(3:28:34 AM) Shouta: FC has techniques, not as good as quant but they have superior stats to them
(3:28:41 AM) Shouta: Quant has more useful techniques
(3:29:15 AM) Shouta: for example
(3:29:25 AM) Shouta: FC's whip is good because of how fast it comes out and its damage
(3:29:35 AM) TheBrett: how can FC have techniques that are worse than qants but have better stats on them
(3:29:53 AM) Shouta: but Quant's Shield bits are good because they allow you to get in safely and deflect a lot allowing you to get damage
(3:30:31 AM) Shouta: well, look at a single shot CSa
(3:31:12 AM) Shouta: Strike Freedom vs GP01Fb
(3:31:41 AM) Shouta: SF's CSa is faster than Kou's but Kou's is more damae
(3:32:29 AM) Shouta: but even though Kou's has more damage, the speed allows it to be more useful
(3:32:31 AM) Shouta: er
(3:32:34 AM) Shouta: the speed of SF's
(3:33:26 AM) TheBrett: would you be able to say whether one was better than the other?
(3:33:47 AM) Shouta: depends on what way you want to approach it
(3:33:57 AM) Shouta: but I'd say ease of use > damage
(3:34:06 AM) TheBrett: well this wouldn't be the first time you've just said something is specifically straight up better than another.
(3:34:20 AM) Shouta: but on the other hand, the ultimate point is to deal damage which is a plus itself
(3:34:29 AM) TheBrett: well for the sake of this example
(3:34:31 AM) TheBrett: which would you say is better
(3:34:42 AM) Shouta: Strike's
(3:34:49 AM) Shouta: Strike F's
(3:34:55 AM) Shouta: Easier to land despite lower damage
(3:35:01 AM) TheBrett: so your conclusion is that SF's CSa is better than GP01's
(3:35:02 AM) TheBrett: right?
(3:35:24 AM) Shouta: If I was looking at it from the perspective of easy of use, sure
(3:35:29 AM) Shouta: ease*
(3:35:30 AM) TheBrett: no
(3:35:32 AM) TheBrett: i just mean in general.
(3:35:47 AM) Shouta: Then I wouldn't say either
(3:36:00 AM) TheBrett: okay but didn't you just say qant's tools were better than FC's?
(3:36:19 AM) Shouta: I clarified that statement
(3:36:24 AM) TheBrett: hrmm i must have missed that
(3:36:27 AM) Shouta: <Shouta> FC has techniques, not as good as quant but they have superior stats to them
(3:36:28 AM) Shouta: <Shouta> Quant has more useful techniques
(3:36:38 AM) Shouta: more powerful techniques, come out faster etc
(3:36:43 AM) Shouta: but quant is more usable
(3:37:19 AM) Dunpeal left the room (quit: Quit: Dunpeal).
(3:37:49 AM) Shouta: in this case, FC's tools have big advantages but the properties of those tools are also a minus
(3:38:01 AM) Shouta: the whip comes out stupid fast and does great damage but it's only vertical
(3:38:28 AM) TheBrett: yet
(3:38:32 AM) Shouta: Quant's shield on the other hand has minus points
(3:38:43 AM) TheBrett: you would say you are unable to evaluate whether qant or FC's tools are better overall?
(3:38:45 AM) Shouta: like only 100 hp but with proper use, it allows from more opportunties to get damage
(3:39:29 AM) Shouta: Definitively, no
(3:39:35 AM) TheBrett: i see
(3:39:50 AM) Shouta: because it's comparing things that aren't measurable
(3:40:02 AM) TheBrett: but you said earlier
(3:40:04 AM) Shouta: which is why I said i think FC is more damned annoying
(3:40:06 AM) TheBrett: Shouta: I'd put them pretty close to each other but FC has the stat imbalance if you ask me
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(3:40:12 AM) Shouta: key being I think
(3:42:19 AM) Shouta: mmm foood
(3:42:30 AM) Shouta: Anyway, my statement is my opinion
(3:42:33 AM) Shouta: I didn't say it was definitive
(3:42:45 AM) Shouta: hence why we're arguing =P
(3:43:05 AM) TheBrett: i dont actually have any problem with whether you think FC or Qant is better tbqh
(3:43:07 AM) TheBrett: i am just confused
(3:43:50 AM) TheBrett: you're saying you cant judge whether one's tools are overall better than anothers
(3:43:59 AM) TheBrett: but you made a statement earlier which looks like you did
(3:44:30 AM) Shouta: I said I can't judge which tools are better without putting it in a certain light
(3:44:32 AM) TheBrett: i also dont really think we're arguing
(3:44:33 AM) TheBrett: lol
(3:44:38 AM) TheBrett: i am just trying to understand what you're trying to say
(3:44:51 AM) Shouta: eh, something like that lol
(3:45:06 AM) TheBrett: what do you mean by
(3:45:09 AM) TheBrett: putting it in a certain light?
(3:45:38 AM) Shouta: Trying to generalize which is better is difficult because you aren't measuring the same thing in this case
(3:45:51 AM) TheBrett: oh indeed it is quite difficult
(3:46:23 AM) TheBrett: and its quite hard to try and account for things like move statistics and applicability.
(3:46:24 AM) Shouta: so without putting a condition for the comparison, you can't get anywhere
(3:47:05 AM) TheBrett: so what is the condition for comparison in this case then?
(3:47:19 AM) Shouta: My above statement is a nebulous conclusion of all the things you have to consider in the game
(3:47:51 AM) Shouta: so not just individual unit strengths but like team application, battle strategy, etc
(3:48:02 AM) TheBrett: right
(3:48:03 AM) TheBrett: thats a given
(3:48:29 AM) Shouta: In this case, I think FC has a few things that edge it ahead of quant, not by much but it eeks it just a little
(3:49:22 AM) Shouta: The difference to me, is that if you changed one or two things on FC as it is right now, it'd be pretty much dead even
(3:49:34 AM) Shouta: So not much at all
(3:50:34 AM) TheBrett: right
(3:50:44 AM) TheBrett: so would i be correct in saying you think
(3:50:49 AM) TheBrett: FC's tools are slightly better overall than qants?
(3:51:46 AM) Shouta: In my nebulous overall assessment sure
(3:52:06 AM) TheBrett: cool.
(3:52:08 AM) Shouta: Individually, I'd say it's a little different but the game isn't 1v1 so
(3:52:17 AM) TheBrett: we're not talking about in a matchup though
(3:52:22 AM) Shouta: yeah
(3:52:33 AM) TheBrett: we've already established what it means for a suit to be "better" than another
(3:52:41 AM) TheBrett: so we dont really need to get stuck on that
(3:52:57 AM) Shouta: yep
(3:53:10 AM) TheBrett: so
(3:53:22 AM) TheBrett: lets assume
(3:53:26 AM) TheBrett: for an extremely
(3:53:28 AM) TheBrett: generalized case
(3:53:53 AM) TheBrett: for establishing one's tools to be overall better than anothers
(3:53:59 AM) TheBrett: for a very simple scenario
(3:54:16 AM) TheBrett: we could boil it down to just these "stats" of the tools, and its utility
(3:54:33 AM) TheBrett: thats not TOO far of a cry off
(3:54:52 AM) TheBrett: so we could really boil it down to
(3:54:55 AM) TheBrett: A+B = C
(3:54:58 AM) TheBrett: in this case, right?
(3:55:29 AM) Shouta: If we did that, which one would be better, you mean?
(3:55:50 AM) TheBrett: im just trying to bring up a hypothetical case to express a point i want to make
(3:55:54 AM) TheBrett: but you follow so far, right?
(3:55:59 AM) Shouta: I think so
(3:56:12 AM) TheBrett: so lets just say
(3:56:28 AM) TheBrett: in this A+B=C case
(3:56:48 AM) TheBrett: that again, they are the "stats" and the utility
(3:57:01 AM) TheBrett: which together give you an overall assessment
(3:57:09 AM) TheBrett: which lets you determine whether one thing is better _overall_ than the other
(3:58:22 AM) Shouta: Using that, which would be better? is what you're asking?
(3:59:20 AM) TheBrett: sorry
(3:59:20 AM) TheBrett: was busy
(3:59:26 AM) TheBrett: nah im not asking anything yet
(3:59:28 AM) TheBrett: sorry
(3:59:53 AM) TheBrett: so anyways
(3:59:59 AM) TheBrett: if you have already made the conclusion of what C is
(4:00:45 AM) TheBrett: god damnit
(4:00:45 AM) TheBrett: sec
(4:00:52 AM) TheBrett: lol
(4:00:53 AM) Shouta: busy busy at 4am
(4:00:57 AM) Shouta: popular man lol
(4:05:53 AM) TheBrett: okay
(4:05:54 AM) TheBrett: sorry about that
(4:06:09 AM) TheBrett: uhhh where was i
(4:06:09 AM) TheBrett: lol
(4:06:19 AM) TheBrett: ah
(4:06:19 AM) TheBrett: okay
(4:06:30 AM) TheBrett: so anyways
(4:06:41 AM) TheBrett: lets just say for this FC vs Qant example
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(4:07:05 AM) TheBrett: you said FC is SLIGHTLY better, by your own personal opinion, nebulous etc etc.
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(4:07:09 AM) TheBrett: thats fine and dandy
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(4:07:17 AM) TheBrett: in this stupid A+B=C scenario
(4:07:31 AM) TheBrett: it means one C is slightly higher than other
(4:07:43 AM) TheBrett: now if you're saying
(4:07:54 AM) TheBrett: FC's "stats"
(4:07:57 AM) TheBrett: are "imbalanced"
(4:08:03 AM) TheBrett: YET
(4:08:10 AM) TheBrett: still only slightly better overall than qant
(4:08:19 AM) TheBrett: what is the point of highlighting that "imbalance"
(4:08:28 AM) TheBrett: when its clearly being weighed with utility
(4:08:35 AM) TheBrett: and overall ends up only being slightly better
(4:08:47 AM) Shouta: Ah, so why does the A get a highlight in an A+B=C equation
(4:09:17 AM) TheBrett: you are highlighting only one factor of what you end up evaluating as the overall performance, and calling it "imbalanced"
(4:09:26 AM) TheBrett: but you're sitll saying its only slightly in the lead
(4:09:30 AM) TheBrett: and mentioning nothing about B
(4:09:59 AM) TheBrett: now it would be one thing if you just meant to say the stats are slightly better
(4:10:14 AM) TheBrett: because then you can assume utility to be equivalent or w/e
(4:10:48 AM) Shouta: Ok, using just the A+B=C is a little tricky to example this
(4:11:17 AM) TheBrett: well
(4:11:24 AM) TheBrett: you could just answer my question ignoring the ABC thing
(4:11:30 AM) TheBrett: starting with "what is the point"
(4:11:34 AM) Shouta: hah
(4:11:55 AM) TheBrett: i mean this is a quesiton i asked like 20 minutes ago or something but i think it just got ignored
(4:11:56 AM) TheBrett: lol
(4:12:29 AM) Shouta: 20 mins ago I think you were still explaining lol
(4:12:30 AM) Shouta: but anyway
(4:12:41 AM) Shouta: The reason why FC's imbalances are highlighted because it skews some of the applications of the unit
(4:13:07 AM) TheBrett: oh i guess i went afk
(4:13:10 AM) TheBrett: so i guess it was longer
(4:13:25 AM) Shouta: It's not all but some do
(4:13:41 AM) TheBrett: applications of the unit
(4:13:46 AM) TheBrett: could you clarify what that means for me
(4:14:21 AM) Shouta: For example, FC in overcost is a little evil because of the ABC mantle coming back still
(4:14:29 AM) Shouta: whereas the other Crossbones don't get it
(4:14:48 AM) TheBrett: so that counts as a "stat"
(4:14:48 AM) TheBrett: ?
(4:14:50 AM) Shouta: It gives it some OC protection and slightly safer run away
(4:15:05 AM) Shouta: the ABC mantle coming back sure
(4:15:09 AM) TheBrett: so
(4:15:15 AM) TheBrett: the fact that the mantle comes back
(4:15:18 AM) TheBrett: counts as a stat
(4:15:54 AM) Shouta: In your A+B=C example, it'd be easier to count it as so
(4:15:59 AM) TheBrett: okay
(4:16:05 AM) TheBrett: but do you expect anyone you're talking to do assume that?
(4:16:12 AM) Shouta: because it's a +value
(4:16:18 AM) Shouta: oh, of course not
(4:16:22 AM) TheBrett: right well
(4:16:26 AM) TheBrett: all im trying to illustrate in general
(4:16:32 AM) Shouta: but honestly, I don't think many people put as much thought into it
(4:16:34 AM) TheBrett: is that I think the use of the phrase "stat imbalance" is misleading.
(4:17:46 AM) Shouta: I won't disagree that some of it sounds weird but how are you gonna describe overly strong attacks or overly fast ones heh
(4:18:06 AM) TheBrett: "mechanics" would be good
(4:18:08 AM) TheBrett: "performance" would be good
(4:18:18 AM) TheBrett: i think its just not a good idea to try and boil it down to just one generic category
(4:18:30 AM) TheBrett: "frame data" might be nice
(4:18:46 AM) Shouta: But I don't think it's good to try and fit it into categories that it wouldn't necessarily work
(4:19:07 AM) TheBrett: err
(4:19:13 AM) Shouta: well
(4:19:41 AM) Shouta: like performance is a little vague, mechanics doesn't explain the exact why
(4:19:52 AM) Shouta: frame data I guess could work for some
(4:20:10 AM) Shouta: but the associated image is a little hard to imagine
(4:20:18 AM) TheBrett: do you honestly expect anyone to guess that "stat imbalance" of FC includes the fact that he gets his cloak back during overcost?
(4:20:54 AM) Shouta: no, but if you put it as "he gets an extra 140 HP even in overcost" they would
(4:21:02 AM) Shouta: that's only good against beams
(4:21:39 AM) TheBrett: so you agree that you would need to not use "stat imbalance" to illustrate that point, then?
(4:22:32 AM) Shouta: Eh, I agree and disagree
(4:23:00 AM) Shouta: I agree that stat imbalance can be a bad term
(4:23:49 AM) Shouta: but I disagree because there's a lot you can explain with it without getting more complicated
(4:24:45 AM) Shouta: It's also because some of these imbalances can be adjusted simply by adjusting values
(4:26:41 AM) TheBrett: how does "the fact that the mantle comes back in overcost" end up being a value?
(4:27:01 AM) TheBrett: unless you want to get really technical about it being a 0 or 1 in code :|
(4:27:13 AM) Shouta: Well, from a life perspective I said it above
(4:27:30 AM) Shouta: the mantle is an additional 140 HP that's only good against beams
(4:27:35 AM) TheBrett: also wouldn't you say utility can be adjusted by simply adjusting the values too?
(4:27:54 AM) Shouta: In some cases yes
(4:28:13 AM) Shouta: but you can adjust utility by adding or subtracting different properties
(4:28:24 AM) TheBrett: properties that aren't values?
(4:28:28 AM) Shouta: yeah
(4:28:33 AM) TheBrett: for example?
(4:28:43 AM) Shouta: like they're adding inertia back to Ez8 in FB i think
(4:29:12 AM) Shouta: I could be reading the thread wrong on him but can move more like Next than in EXVS
(4:29:12 AM) TheBrett: in what sense?
(4:29:15 AM) Shouta: but I could be wrong
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(4:30:23 AM) Shouta: making the ABC mantle block missiles too would be a property that isn't a value, hypothetical of course
(4:31:03 AM) TheBrett: sure, okay.
(4:31:13 AM) Shouta: uh, DX getting bits that used to be only shoot and out into a following assist is another property
(4:31:20 AM) Shouta: well for GX I mean
(4:31:25 AM) Shouta: but no GX so DX got it lol
(4:32:51 AM) TheBrett: okay
(4:32:54 AM) TheBrett: that makes sense
(4:32:55 AM) Shouta: So going back to FC, I think if you tweaked some of the values on its current attacks and leave the properties, I think it'd more even
(4:33:08 AM) TheBrett: right
(4:33:34 AM) TheBrett: i think the use of stats is maybe okay, or at the very least i can understand why you would want to use it despite my personal opinion that it's vague
(4:33:43 AM) TheBrett: but "imbalance"?
(4:33:54 AM) TheBrett: again back to how you were saying FC was only slightly better than Qant
(4:34:18 AM) TheBrett: why would you think illustrate FC's stats being imbalanced, if only slightly better than qants
(4:34:20 AM) Shouta: In FC's case, I think some of its stats are way above without many minsues for a unit as buff as it is
(4:34:36 AM) TheBrett: isnt it no longer "way above" if he comes out slightly ahead anyways?
(4:35:01 AM) Shouta: speaking on just the unit in comparison to others, without adding battle tech/strategies I mean
(4:35:05 AM) TheBrett: like GP02's nuke damage is "way above" other shit but i dont see anyone complaining about damage imbalance on that move.
(4:35:19 AM) Shouta: most units in the game get stronger abilities at the cost of other areas
(4:35:48 AM) Shouta: so like say Hyakushiki gets a reloading BR and a revive ability at the cost of its HP
(4:36:04 AM) Shouta: or Zeta after it get nerfed
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(4:36:18 AM) Shouta: manually reloading BR, lots of great projectiles iwth good damage but his reload is long
(4:36:43 AM) TheBrett: so you're saying
(4:36:46 AM) Shouta: Strike Freedom has great mobiility and shooting but has low HP and so-so melee
(4:36:51 AM) TheBrett: you're using the word imbalance not in relation to qant
(4:36:54 AM) TheBrett: but in relation to all the suits
(4:37:00 AM) Shouta: yeah, kinda
(4:37:10 AM) Shouta: From a design perspective, I think FC has too many pluses and no minuses
(4:37:12 AM) TheBrett: kind of?
(4:37:14 AM) TheBrett: or yes?
(4:37:40 AM) Shouta: Kind of in the sense that it's not against the other units but the design philosphy of the devs
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(4:37:53 AM) TheBrett: but yes in the sense that its not in relation to qant, correct?
(4:37:54 AM) Shouta: it's a strange distinction
(4:38:01 AM) Shouta: yeah
(4:38:05 AM) Shouta: not directly
(4:38:13 AM) Shouta: but it would include quant
(4:38:25 AM) Shouta: weird, I know
(4:38:36 AM) TheBrett: so even though you're making a statement comparing A to B, you're talking about how A relates to C
(4:39:13 AM) TheBrett: that is like me saying
(4:39:19 AM) Shouta: Well, what's B in this case?
(4:39:26 AM) TheBrett: I think Eddie is slightly better than Testament because Eddie unblockables are broken.
(4:39:35 AM) TheBrett: that is just weird english to me.
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(4:40:13 AM) TheBrett: when in reality this "imbalance" only gives a slight edge to FC over qant
(4:41:00 AM) Shouta: ok, I'm a little lost now
(4:41:11 AM) Shouta: What are you trying to say?
(4:42:44 AM) TheBrett: im trying to say by describing it as imbalanced you make it sound like you're trying to highlight how FC's "stats" are significantly better than qants
(4:43:15 AM) Shouta: but it only equals FC being slightly better than quant right?
(4:43:30 AM) TheBrett: according to you, yes
(4:43:42 AM) Shouta: Well look
(4:43:54 AM) Shouta: A+B=C but when comparing FC and Quant, it's their Cs that matter
(4:43:58 AM) Shouta: not the As or Bs
(4:44:03 AM) TheBrett: yes I totally agree!
(4:44:08 AM) Shouta: In this case then
(4:44:25 AM) Shouta: I think FCs A is better than Quant's A i.e. the stats
(4:44:40 AM) Shouta: but I think Quant's B is better than FCs B
(4:44:56 AM) Shouta: it evens it out some but FC's A is still pretty significant
(4:45:21 AM) Shouta: adjust the A on FC and I think the C evens out overall
(4:45:47 AM) TheBrett: i dont think a large difference in A actually carries any meaning
(4:45:53 AM) TheBrett: because of B
(4:46:10 AM) TheBrett: in the end, like you said, the C is what matters
(4:46:15 AM) TheBrett: which is only a slight advantage
(4:46:23 AM) Shouta: That's fine. I can understand it
(4:46:32 AM) Shouta: well see, it isn't just A+B = C
(4:46:38 AM) Shouta: it's more like A+B+etc = Z
(4:46:42 AM) TheBrett: okay
(4:46:52 AM) TheBrett: but we've been talking about two elements
(4:46:53 AM) TheBrett: the whole time
(4:47:04 AM) TheBrett: i believe you were the one who mentioned those two
(4:47:10 AM) Shouta: But I said my statement earlier was from an overall perspective
(4:48:06 AM) TheBrett: well
(4:48:10 AM) Shouta: I said I thought FC has stats in its favor and Quant has technique and strategies but then you can mitigate both using additional elements
(4:48:13 AM) TheBrett: when i asked you this question a while back
(4:48:23 AM) TheBrett: about what counterbalanced this stat imbalance
(4:48:33 AM) TheBrett:  you just said techniques and tools
(4:48:51 AM) TheBrett: regardless i dont think it really matters
(4:48:57 AM) TheBrett: no matter how many factors you add
(4:48:59 AM) TheBrett: the point being
(4:49:09 AM) TheBrett: does it really matter how drastically one element overwhelms
(4:49:16 AM) TheBrett: if the end result is that its still only slightly better
(4:49:32 AM) TheBrett: doesnt that in and of itself make the advantage justified?
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(4:49:47 AM) Shouta: It matters as an explanation
(4:50:02 AM) TheBrett: right but thats not the actual reason
(4:50:09 AM) TheBrett: because you're disregarding explaining B, C, D, E etc.
(4:50:27 AM) Shouta: Because I haven't been asked what else would make it this way
(4:50:39 AM) TheBrett: what if you thought qant was better
(4:50:47 AM) TheBrett: but FC still had "imbalanced stats"
(4:51:16 AM) Shouta: What would i say be the reason why Quant is better than FC?
(4:51:36 AM) TheBrett: in a hypothetical situation because i'm just trying to illustrate why i think your statement is misleading.
(4:51:45 AM) TheBrett: its just semantics
(4:53:06 AM) Shouta: I don't really understand why you think my statement is misleading
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(4:53:44 AM) Shouta: I think that's what I'm stuck on and why I can't make myself clearer for you
(4:54:46 AM) lark: "qant was better but FC still had imbalanced stats"
(4:54:51 AM) lark: meditate on that statement
(4:55:04 AM) lark: under a waterfall
(4:55:38 AM) lark: because that was what you are saying
(4:55:50 AM) lark: and as someone who would be reading this shit
(4:56:05 AM) lark: wouldn't you want to know what "imbalanced stats" are
(4:57:03 AM) Shouta: If I only had the exact stats, I'd be glad to show you
(4:57:30 AM) lark: but that's what you said, and what you provided, so there should be reasoning behind it
(4:57:40 AM) lark: or at least a general perspective
(4:57:59 AM) lark: you can even be vague and say shit like "whip is fucking op against most of the cast"
(4:58:21 AM) Shouta: Ok, look at the changes for FB that folks have been saying on the FB loc test thread
(4:58:24 AM) Shouta: err
(4:58:25 AM) Shouta: FC*
(4:59:00 AM) Shouta: Sub N start up is slower, doesn't have mantle on OC, lower HP
(4:59:21 AM) Shouta: They obviously thought he was imbalanced otherwise he wouldn't have gotten hit that hard
(4:59:22 AM) lark: wait
(4:59:25 AM) lark: what does FB have to do with this
(4:59:39 AM) lark: this is a different game
(4:59:48 AM) Shouta: FB shows that my thought on FC's imbalances to be true
(4:59:54 AM) lark: GP02 changed to 2500
(4:59:57 AM) Shouta: It's a different game sure but directly influenced in this
(4:59:59 AM) lark: what did they think
(5:00:06 AM) lark: same with the other 10000 changes
(5:00:14 AM) lark: they obviously thought EVERY SUIT NEEDED CHANGING
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(5:00:38 AM) Shouta: for a lot yeah
(5:00:52 AM) Shouta: but it doesn't make my thoughts on FC any different
(5:01:25 AM) lark: look
(5:01:42 AM) lark: if you say that the FB changes are what amounts to imbalance in EXVS
(5:01:51 AM) lark: stat imbalance*
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(5:01:56 AM) lark: then that would be 100% fine
(5:02:20 AM) lark: but you could have just avoided the entire changelist and just said what was dumb about him