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JaysonSunshine

Humans practicing Christianity

JaysonSunshine
Jul 1st, 2017
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  2. Status #christiandebateX #atheismX #civil_debateX
  3. #christiandebate: Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt
  4. [14:51] == BrotherMartin [[email protected]] has joined #christiandebate
  5. [14:51] -CancelBot- BibleBot is online. Serving acv akjv amp apo asv avot bbe bom dict dar dou greek heb hebrew hnv jps kjv kjv+ litv nasb niv nkjv quran rot rsv strongs web ylt yng vulgate. We also translate. In channel !help
  6. [14:51] == mode/#ChristianDebate [+v BrotherMartin] by Profound
  7. [14:51] <+Shaw> New article complaining that the White House website is not in Spanish. "Trump Administration ignores Spanish speakers."
  8. [14:52] <+BrotherMartin> I have visited today to give you a chance to forgive me.
  9. [14:52] <@Ross> hi terramarret, BrotherMartin
  10. [14:52] <+BrotherMartin> hi, Ross :)
  11. [14:52] == Sarah [[email protected]] has quit [Ping timeout]
  12. [14:52] <+Shaw> https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trumps-white-house-is-all-but-ignoring-spanish-speakers/2017/07/01/9179961c-5e5a-11e7-aa69-3964a7d55207_story.html?utm_term=.27d1c6467f30
  13. [14:54] <@Ross> glad you cam BrotherMartin ... barbabbas` isnt here l... unless he's hiding in a new nick
  14. [14:54] <@Ross> i'd say at the moment the
  15. [14:54] == brad70 [[email protected]] has left #christiandebate []
  16. [14:56] <+BrotherMartin> Thank you, Ross.
  17. [14:56] <+BrotherMartin> I am glad to visit.
  18. [14:56] <+mugz> BrotherMartin is RachelThompson
  19. [14:56] <+mugz> ban evading again
  20. [14:56] == CharmlessMan [[email protected]] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
  21. [14:57] <+BrotherMartin> Forgive me, mugz.
  22. [14:57] <+mugz> BrotherMartin I do forgive you, but you still gota pay the speeding ticket
  23. [14:58] <+BrotherMartin> Forgiveness is the act of pardoning an offender. In the Bible, the Greek word translated “forgiveness” literally means “to let go,” as when a person does not demand payment for a debt. Jesus used this comparison when he taught his followers to pray: “Forgive us our sins, for we ourselves also forgive everyone who is in debt to us.” (Luke 11:4) Likewise, in his parable of the unmerciful slave, Jesus equated forgiveness with canceling a debt.—Matthew 18:23-35.
  24. [14:59] <+mugz> only your ban was not vindictive, it was judicial
  25. [14:59] <+BrotherMartin> Forgive me, mugz.
  26. [14:59] <+BrotherMartin> !niv Matt18:23-26
  27. [15:00] <+mugz> forgiveness does not mean you get to break them with impunity
  28. [15:00] <@BibleBot> Mat18:23 "Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants.
  29. [15:00] <@BibleBot> Mat18:24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.
  30. [15:00] <@BibleBot> Mat18:25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.
  31. [15:00] <@BibleBot> Mat18:26 "The servant fell on his knees before him. 'Be patient with me,' he begged, 'and I will pay back everything.' (NIV)
  32. [15:00] <+BrotherMartin> !niv Matt18:27-30
  33. [15:00] <+mugz> BrotherMartin then take your case to the one who banned you
  34. [15:00] <@BibleBot> Mat18:27 The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.
  35. [15:00] <@BibleBot> Mat18:28 "But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. 'Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded.
  36. [15:00] <@BibleBot> Mat18:29 "His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.'
  37. [15:00] <@BibleBot> Mat18:30 "But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. (NIV)
  38. [15:00] <+TheYoungPope> This is going to certainly have an influence on Christianity
  39. [15:01] <+BrotherMartin> !niv Matt18:31-34
  40. [15:01] <@BibleBot> Mat18:32 "Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to.
  41. [15:01] <@BibleBot> Mat18:33 Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?'
  42. [15:01] <@BibleBot> Mat18:34 In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. (NIV)
  43. [15:01] <@Ross> Tony?
  44. [15:01] <+Shaw> How does young people not believing in God impact those who do? For that matter, Christianity has always been and always will be a minority religion, hence Jesus' statement about not following the crowd through the wide gate.
  45. [15:02] <+TheYoungPope> I think the biggest problem mainline Christianity faces it's it's no acceptance of diversity
  46. [15:02] <+BrotherMartin> !niv Matt18:35
  47. [15:02] <+BrotherMartin> According to Jesus, mugz, when you don't forgive me in this channel, you'll be tortured in hell.
  48. [15:03] <@BibleBot> Mat18:35 "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart." (NIV)
  49. [15:03] <+Shaw> lol @ "acceptance of diversity" ... by which you mean what, sin? Homosexuality? Yeah, we don't compromise God's word to satisfy the godless.
  50. [15:03] <@Ross> do you mean christian reject diversity or reject what God defined as sin
  51. [15:03] <+BrotherMartin> For God will treat you how you treat me.
  52. [15:03] <+BrotherMartin> And if you require payment for my sins, after forgiving me, God will require payment for your sins, after forgiving you.
  53. [15:03] <+BrotherMartin> And the payment for your sins is eternity in Hell.
  54. [15:03] <+BrotherMartin> So, please forgive me.
  55. [15:04] <+mugz> !nas 2th 2:3
  56. [15:04] <@BibleBot> 2Th2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, (NAS)
  57. [15:04] <+Shaw> BrotherMartin, do you realize that you've not gone from asking for forgiveness to demanding it while condemning mugz to hell?
  58. [15:04] <+Shaw> You cannot DEMAND forgiveness.
  59. [15:04] <+BrotherMartin> Shaw: I have cited the Gospel of Matthew.
  60. [15:04] <+BrotherMartin> Then, I gave some straightforward interpretation of those words of Jesus.
  61. [15:04] <+BrotherMartin> Do you think I made any errors in my interpretation?
  62. [15:04] <+mugz> I am not an op, its not my place to remove the ban
  63. [15:04] == kissa [[email protected]] has joined #christiandebate
  64. [15:04] == mode/#ChristianDebate [+v kissa] by Profound
  65. [15:05] <+BrotherMartin> mugz: I am not concerned about any bans.
  66. [15:05] <+BrotherMartin> You brought up the bans.
  67. [15:05] <+BrotherMartin> I am concerned with you forgiving me.
  68. [15:05] <+BrotherMartin> You have stated that you do forgive me, but I still owe the speeding ticket.
  69. [15:05] <+BrotherMartin> And so I cited Jesus in Matthew to show you that you have an incorrect understanding of forgiveness.
  70. [15:05] <+BrotherMartin> Forgiveness means 'to cancel the debt'.
  71. [15:05] <+BrotherMartin> You cannot forgive a person and demand payment.
  72. [15:05] <+mugz> BrotherMartin do you repent of your statement that infant rape is OK in your book - or of condoning the assasinatino of the President?
  73. [15:05] <+mugz> BrotherMartin forgiveness accompanies repentance
  74. [15:06] <+Shaw> Yes you can.
  75. [15:07] <@Ross> BrotherMartin: mugz said early on that he forgives you ... so move on
  76. [15:07] <+Shaw> !niv Proverbs 6:30-31
  77. [15:07] <@BibleBot> Prv6:30 Men do not despise a thief if he steals to satisfy his hunger when he is starving.
  78. [15:07] <@BibleBot> Prv6:31 Yet if he is caught, he must pay sevenfold, though it costs him all the wealth of his house. (NIV)
  79. [15:07] <+Shaw> See above. Men do not despise him, yet he must pay sevenfold.
  80. [15:07] <+BrotherMartin> mugz: Are you saying that I need to repent my sins to you in order to receive forgiveness from you?
  81. [15:07] <+BrotherMartin> Ross: <+mugz> BrotherMartin I do forgive you, but you still gota pay the speeding ticket
  82. [15:07] <+mugz> BrotherMartin not to me, to the op who judiciously placed the ban on you
  83. [15:07] <+Shaw> This is some great trolling. "Forgive me for trolling you as I troll you about forgiving me for trolling you."
  84. [15:07] <@Ross> repentance is a bit more than sorrow for sin
  85. [15:07] <+BrotherMartin> According to Jesus in Matthew, when we forgive, we cancel the debt.
  86. [15:07] <+BrotherMartin> Failure to cancel the debt results in being tortured.
  87. [15:07] == terramarret [[email protected]] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
  88. [15:08] <+BrotherMartin> mugz: Are you claiming that Jesus instructed us to repent to one another in order to receive forgiveness?
  89. [15:08] <+BrotherMartin> Because I would claim that we're to repent to Jesus/God, and we receive forgiveness from each other unconditionally.
  90. [15:08] <@Ross> well, if forgiveness is "letting go" then some have trouble letting go
  91. [15:08] == mode/#ChristianDebate [+l 59] by QRT
  92. [15:09] <+Shaw> BrotherMartin, forgiveness can only be given, it cannot be demanded. Your badgering of mugz is not appropriate.
  93. [15:09] <+mugz> BrotherMartin yes
  94. [15:10] <+mugz> !kjv mat 25:23-25
  95. [15:10] <@BibleBot> Mat25:23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
  96. [15:10] <@BibleBot> Mat25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
  97. [15:10] <@BibleBot> Mat25:25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine. (KJV)
  98. [15:10] <+mugz> oops
  99. [15:10] <+Shaw> !amp Luke 17:3-4
  100. [15:10] <@BibleBot> Luke17:3 Pay attention {and} always be on your guard [looking out for one another]. If your brother sins (misses the mark), solemnly tell him so {and} reprove him, and if he repents (feels sorry for having sinned), forgive him.
  101. [15:10] <@BibleBot> Luke17:4 And even if he sins against you seven times in a day, and turns to you seven times and says, I repent [I am sorry], you must forgive him (give up resentment and consider the offense as recalled and annulled). (AMP)
  102. [15:11] <+BrotherMartin> mugz: Can you cite Jesus supporting that?
  103. [15:11] <+Shaw> "... if he repents ..."
  104. [15:11] <+BrotherMartin> Oops, lag.
  105. [15:11] <+mugz> !kjv mat 5:23-25
  106. [15:11] <+Shaw> See above.
  107. [15:11] <@BibleBot> Mat5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
  108. [15:11] <@BibleBot> Mat5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
  109. [15:11] <@BibleBot> Mat5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. (KJV)
  110. [15:11] <+mugz> also in Matthew
  111. [15:11] == kissa [[email protected]] has quit [Quit: bbl :)]
  112. [15:12] <+BrotherMartin> I'll take a few minutes to read these citations.
  113. [15:12] <+BrotherMartin> Thank you.
  114. [15:13] <+Shaw> It's telling that the question is whether or not you have to repent. Why not just explain how you've repented? Have you not repented, is this why you seek to divorce repentance from forgiveness?
  115. [15:14] <+Shaw> Seems to me the entire argument is that you don't have to repent to be forgiven, meaning you either have not repented or simply refuse to.
  116. [15:14] <+Shaw> Why not just repent?
  117. [15:15] <+BrotherMartin> mugz: I have read the passage in the NIV. The section is entitled 'Murder'. It seems to be Jesus giving us advice to settle conflicts between one another before we get to the judge.
  118. [15:15] <+BrotherMartin> For the judge might be harsh on us and require us to 'pay to the last cent'.
  119. [15:15] <@Ross> BrotherMartin: you can ask forgiveness, if they dont want to forgive, let them carry the baggage
  120. [15:15] <+BrotherMartin> I interpret this passage to me that you and I should resolve our issue, if possible, before it reaches God.
  121. [15:16] <+Shaw> !niv Luke 17:3-4
  122. [15:16] <@BibleBot> Luke17:3 So watch yourselves. "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.
  123. [15:16] <@BibleBot> Luke17:4 If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him." (NIV)
  124. [15:16] <+Shaw> "... if he repents ..."
  125. [15:16] <+Shaw> Yup, still there in the NIV.
  126. [15:16] <+BrotherMartin> Ross: I did ask for forgiveness, and mugz gave it, but still spoke of a debt. So we are discussing whether or not holding a debt and forgiving are possible at the same time.
  127. [15:16] <+mugz> BrotherMartin I'm not the "judge" in this channel :)
  128. [15:16] <+BrotherMartin> mugz: The only judge is God.
  129. [15:16] <+mugz> BrotherMartin you are pleading your cae to the wrong person :)
  130. [15:16] <+TrollT> What are the indicators or symbols indicating rependance other than someone saying that they repent?
  131. [15:16] <+BrotherMartin> This passage wants you and me to try and settle our conflict.
  132. [15:16] <+Shaw> What debt is mugz holding? I've not seen mugz actually claim you owe him anything.
  133. [15:16] <+Shaw> What debt?
  134. [15:16] <+BrotherMartin> I think you provided some evidence we should sort this out between us.
  135. [15:17] <+BrotherMartin> Shaw: My argument has been that my debt is between me and God, as with all cases of sin or potential sin.
  136. [15:17] == HempFandango [[email protected]] has joined #christiandebate
  137. [15:17] == mode/#ChristianDebate [+v HempFandango] by Profound
  138. [15:17] == Sraosha [[email protected]] has joined #christiandebate
  139. [15:17] == mode/#ChristianDebate [+v Sraosha] by Profound
  140. [15:17] <+Sraosha> lol
  141. [15:17] <+TrollT> "If he repents" indeed. How can you tell if someone is repenting?
  142. [15:17] <+Shaw> TrollT, actions speak louder than words. A change in attitude and behavior are a good start. Restoring what was damaged is excellent too.
  143. [15:17] <+TrollT> How could someone 'repent 7 times a day'?
  144. [15:18] <+BrotherMartin> And that forgiveness between us people should be unconditional.
  145. [15:18] <@Ross> there is the element ... one is suppose to make things right to receive forgiveness
  146. [15:18] <+BrotherMartin> TrollT: That is a very interesting question.
  147. [15:18] <+Shaw> BrotherMartin, you claim mugz is holding some debt against you. What debt? I've not seen mugz claim you owe him anything.
  148. [15:18] <+mugz> dizzy_ I simply pointed out that BrotherMartin is RachelThompson and is ban evading again - I am not and op and did not set the ban
  149. [15:18] == HempFandango has changed nick to Guest45112
  150. [15:18] <+Sraosha> It can also be argued that DNA is nothing more than a program designed to preserve itself. Life has become more complex in the overwhelming sea of information. And life, when organized into species, relies upon genes to be its memory system. So, man is an individual only because of his intangible memory... and memory cannot be defined, but it defines mankind. The advent of computers,
  151. [15:18] <+Sraosha> and the subsequent accumulation of incalculable data has given rise to a new system of memory and thought parallel to your own. Humanity has underestimated the consequences of computerization.
  152. [15:18] <@dizzy_> mugz ah ok. thanks
  153. [15:18] <+TrollT> BrotherMartin, Thank you. It's what i aim for.
  154. [15:18] <+BrotherMartin> Shaw: It appears mugz feels that I owe him a debt.
  155. [15:18] == mode/#ChristianDebate [+b *!*@68.71.39.133] by dizzy_
  156. [15:18] <+Shaw> BrotherMartin, again, WHAT DEBT?
  157. [15:18] BrotherMartin was kicked by dizzy_
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