Here's why logic and philosophy are important

rivkovitch
hi Nalani
+sexbee
i want to answer greg but what's coming to mind is that one commercial where they guy says "i'll send you a vague message in two days that leaves you confused about my level of interest"
s/they/that/
+gregoran
really
+thehorror
Previet gregoran
NalaniEkewaka
hi, rivkovitch
Ignoring thehorror!*@*
+gregoran
privet rivkovitch
+sexbee
kak dela
rivkovitch
i loved that commercial sexbee
+gregoran
really sexbee ?
NalaniEkewaka
sexbee: Do you think Trump has conflicts of interest that prevent him from being president?
+gregoran
damn
i wish he asked me
or othres
but he only asked sexbee
i was so prepared to answer that
Ignoring gregoran!*@*
NalaniEkewaka
gregoran: I put you on ignore.
rivkovitch
that is an interesting question tho, ins't it gregoran
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NalaniEkewaka
http://hotair.com/archives/2016/11/25/former-bush-ethics-lawyer-the-electoral-college-should-block-t...
+pela
[ Former Bush ethics lawyer: The electoral college should block Trump if hes violating the Emoluments Clause � Hot Air  ]
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NalaniEkewaka
I am inclined to agree that the Electoral College should not vote for Trump on 19 Dec, given Trump's current conflicts of interest.
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rivkovitch
Nalani, do you think that Hillary should still be eligible for public office?
and that question goes to the floor for debate
@skydivr
neither one of those crooks should be president :\
NalaniEkewaka
rivkovitch: I will address your question.
Will you address mine?
rivkovitch
yes, but i am looking at the article that you cited in your post...just a moment
NalaniEkewaka
Okay.
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NalaniEkewaka
I believe Hillary Clinton should be blocked from being president.
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NalaniEkewaka
I think that her usage of a private email server, for which it appears her primary intent was to avoid transparency and reporting laws, violates a core value of American democracy.
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NalaniEkewaka
And, therefore, she cannot be the leader of a system she hates.
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NalaniEkewaka
I will cite the Declaration of Independence.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.
Humans have rights from their humanness. Governments are instituted to protect these rights.
When governments become destructive to those ends, governments should be abolished.
To know whether or not governments are protecting the rights stemming from humanness, the people need to know what their government is doing.
This is found in the Constitution.
To further expound on this topic, Congress passed FOIA (and other acts) in the 1970s to make it very clear what information must be given to the people.
rivkovitch
Nalani, in answer to your question. The article itself even points out that since he is a private citizen that the act would not apply at this time...But Congress can approve of the business transactions to prevent any issues
NalaniEkewaka
Multiple FOIA requests were made against SOS Clinton's records, returning zero results. This occurred because her emails were private hosted on an insecure server.
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NalaniEkewaka
This prevent the people from knowing what their government was doing in regards to interactions with foreign actors.
rivkovitch: Also from the article: "If he’s already in violation of the Emoluments Clause, argues former Bush ethics lawyer Richard Painter in the clip, why would the electoral college rubber-stamp his victory by voting for him next month? If Trump’s birth certificate showed that he wasn’t a natural-born citizen, wouldn’t the electoral college be obliged to block him in that case too?"
rivkovitch
Another thing that Trump can do is to divest himself of his business assets and let his children take over the business while he retires on his current assets
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rivkovitch
Nalani, since he has not taken the oath of office, he cannot be in violation
NalaniEkewaka
Do you agree the Electoral College should block any person from becoming president that is not a natural-born citizen?
rivkovitch: Trump already promised to setup a blind trust for his assets.
+sexbee
if it gets to that point, yes
NalaniEkewaka
He has violated that promise.
rivkovitch
I do, however, that has not stopped the current president from serving
+sexbee
although the vetting process should be much earlier
NalaniEkewaka
rivkovitch: The current president is a natural-born citizen.
+[Shoegazer]
He doesn't know what a blind trust is, it seems
NalaniEkewaka
rivkovitch: Did you just assert the current president is not a natural-born citizen?
If so, I will end my conversation with you.
Post-truth politics is literally destroying the world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-truth_politics
+pela
[ Post-truth politics - Wikipedia  ]
rivkovitch
Admittedly, I would rather a foreign born and naturalized citizen serve as president than a person that has commited blatent crimes that aproach levels that could be deemed as trasonous
NalaniEkewaka
[Shoegazer]: It's a blind trust in that it is not blind -- its run by Ivanka -- and it's not a trust -- he has day-to-day knowledge of Trump business decisions.
Trump indicated, repeatedly, he is a serial liar outside of the paradigm of truth/falsity.
To believe there is a greater than a 0.00000000001% chance of Trump divesting from his business interests makes you a fool.
What was it that W Bush said, again?
That great sage.
rivkovitch
I am not sure that BHO is a natural born citizen and there are reasons for that, but at the same time he has been cleared by the courts and election commissions so that closes the book on the legality of that matter.
NalaniEkewaka
“There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again.”
rivkovitch
the saying as i learned it was Fool me once, shame on you - foole me twice, shame on me
NalaniEkewaka
rivkovitch: Do you think David Hume's maxim on knowledge and belief here is relevant?
In regards to the natural-born citizenshipness of BHO.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Extraordinary_claims_require_extraordinary_evidence
+pela
[ Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - RationalWiki  ]
NalaniEkewaka
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" was a phrase made popular by Carl Sagan. However, Laplace writes: "The weight of evidence for an extraordinary claim must be proportioned to its strangeness."[1] Also, David Hume wrote in 1748: "A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence", and "No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish."[2] and Marcello Truzzi says: "An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof."[3]
You have acknowledge that courts and the election commission have closed the book on that matter, legally.
It's likely the courts and election commission looked at this issue using a substantial amount of evidence.
Assuming you value those principles of rationality as provided by Laplace, Sagan, Hume, and Truzzi, you are disallowed from leveraging that belief.
Unless you have evidence, powerful in scope, not available to the election commission or courts.
Do you have any such evidence?
rivkovitch
i am not aware of that maxim. but i have no personal knowledge of his birth certificate other than it was a controversy that took lawsuits being filed to release it
NalaniEkewaka
So, it is irrational for you to comment on it, then.
And could be classified as a prime example of post-truth behavior.
rivkovitch
a person is required to prove eligibility before they are allowed on the ballot, and that it took lawsuits to be able to provide that documentation was suspicious to me
NalaniEkewaka
Post-truth politics (also called post-factual politics) is a political culture in which debate is framed largely by appeals to emotion disconnected from the details of policy, and by the repeated assertion of talking points to which factual rebuttals are ignored. Post-truth differs from traditional contesting and falsifying of truth by rendering it of "secondary" importance. According to Oxford Dictionaries, the term post-truth was first used in a 1992 essay by the late Serbian-American playwright Steve Tesich in The Nation. Tesich, writing about the Iran–Contra scandal and the Persian Gulf War, said that "we, as a free people, have freely decided that we want to live in some post-truth world."[1]
"repeated assertion of talking points to which factual rebuttals are ignored"
rivkovitch: Nobody has ever been asked to provide his birth certificate.
A birth certificate was requested for BHO because of racism.
+[Shoegazer]
there was no controversy about his birth certificate lol
NalaniEkewaka
That is the only reason his birth certificate was requested.
rivkovitch
racism has nothing to do with it....
NalaniEkewaka
Because Donald Trump and a significant portion of the country is racist and didn't want a "black" president.
+[Shoegazer]
Everyone who isn't American thinks it isn't about racism
NalaniEkewaka
rivkovitch: You have asserted "racism has nothing to do with it".
+[Shoegazer]
but that is because they are clueless about race in the US
rivkovitch
if i want to run for public office, i will have to show that i am a natural born citizen and the only way to do that is to provide a valid birth certificate
+pela
[ Ivanka Trump's 'Lap Dance' with Donald : snopes.com  ]
NalaniEkewaka
What do you think are the odds I'm going to be able to defend my claim.
Based off the quality of my posts so far.
rivkovitch
black or white don't factor into why anyone that i know didn't want to vote for him
NalaniEkewaka
rivkovitch: that is a new thesis.
Do you see that?
Making your post a non-sequitur.
rivkovitch
it took BHO being elected president to revert to racial climate in the USA back to the 60's
NalaniEkewaka
Nobody has discussed to this point the causality of people voting for BHO.
+[Shoegazer]
lol no, it is not actually a requirement to show your birth certificate
+AngelaTwerkel
If Obama was a white man and had a Muslim dad and spent his life in Nigeria and Indonesia you think people wouldn't question if he was eligible to be president?
+sexbee
yeah it's part of the FEC paperwork you file
NalaniEkewaka
rivkovitch: Do you see what you're doing now.
You're adding a new thesis.
rivkovitch
I vote for people based of the values that they show in their associations and policies....most of the people that i know do the same
NalaniEkewaka
This is called a Gish gallop.
Ignoring rivkovitch!*@*
NalaniEkewaka
rivkovitch: I added you to ignore.
Reason: Multiple fallacies in a short period of time.
To refresh your apparently fickle memory, the thesis is, Is it rational to reference the possibility that Obama doesn't meet the natural-born citizenship clause?
That's the thesis.
+[Shoegazer]
sexbee, sure what I meant is it isn't like a requirement to release it to the public so the PUBLIC can be sure. Did anyone have a shit fit about McCain not actually being born in the US
NalaniEkewaka
The thesis is not, "Are race relations now as bad as in the 1960s?"
The thesis is not, "Is it a good idea to vote for Obama?"
Which are two theses you thought profitable to engage.
At best, you have a low attention span and focus.
+[Shoegazer]
no, because as long as you have citizen parent you're a natural born US citizen.
NalaniEkewaka
This is sufficient to prevent you from being a good philosopher.
At worst, you have emotionally biased on the issue of Obama's citizenship.
As evidence by you drifting into "Was Obama a good president?" when discussing the birther conspiracy  movement.
Do you see why that would be concerning?
+[Shoegazer]
no one is using that premise for Trump
NalaniEkewaka
Because you are discussing an end: Obama wasn't a good president.
And human minds are built by evolution to use ends to justify means.
"Sure, we were dishonest with the birther movement, but that's okay because he was a bad president that worsened race relations"
The consequent of that statement can be true while the antecedent can be false.
+[Shoegazer]
lol worsened race relations
NalaniEkewaka
But, you wished to show the antecedent true by arguing for the consequent.
This is a known logical error.
rivkovitch: I will now save this conversation.
I will entitle it "Here's why logic and philosophy are important"
And I will share it with friends and family as what goes wrong when we break logic and do poor philosophy.