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  1. The Gridcoin Fireside #16 - Wealth Distribution in Cryptocurrencies; Project brief: yoyo@home
  2.  
  3. Speaker 1: 00:00:03 [Music].
  4.  
  5. Speaker 2: 00:00:10 Hello and welcome to another episode of the grid coin fireside. Today is August eight and we're going to be talking about a subject I get a lot of questions about directly in something that a lot of people here have talked about quite a bit. And that is wealth distribution in the cryptocurrency ecosystem. You're talking about a couple of coins including grid coin, but first to the fires.
  6.  
  7. Speaker 3: 00:00:29 Grid Coin fireside is a participant in pod participatory podcast put together by the gridcoin community takes place on the grid coin discord server every, every Thursday 8:00 PM EDT. You are welcome to join through the voice chat text Jack. But you sit back and listen. If you say something relevant in the text chat, we'll bring it into the conversation on the recording. And if you have a subject you want to talk about in the future, feel free to reach out to one of us. Uh, one of your only hosts, your hosts being myself, Jay Ringo. And where are you today hanging from the ceiling. We've got the Goblin popper, Wyatt and Tommy. Hello down below the floor peg. Oh yeah. And yes you are. Change your name, change your icon, change your life. Become the spider pig under the floorboards today is I like chocolate? Nope, you're beating heart.
  8.  
  9. Speaker 4: 00:01:15 I was gonna say is it's a reference to poetry. Actually don't remember what the pumps called. Oh, is it a telltale heart? Yeah, it does. A little hard. Yeah. That's neat. See, I'm cultured gave me a look. A happier location. What put you in America like in the armchair near the fire side or something. Hiding under the lamp shade is, I like chocolate. Now you're a moth. Congratulations. Great. We also have a project brief today. Delta. is back joining us. He is going to be covering Yo-yo at home. First math project. Oh yeah. Before we get to that though, we got some news to go through. I don't count. Oh, Nethlek is back. He's somewhere. Ooh. Uh, right.
  10.  
  11. Speaker 3: 00:02:05 Updates or news. News. News, News. We got some polls come in there. The white paper poll is still going. That goes til August 15th from the latest update, which was posted this morning. We've got [inaudible] seven votes. 91 for yes, two for no four abstentions. 99.9% of the shares are going to yes. A the ABW validation is at 33.88% it needs 40% ABW to be validated. So even though yes is winning, if it does not get validated, it will not pass. So if you haven't voted yet, vote, you can vote until August 15th. So you got one week left. If you're listening to recorded, you got even fewer days. You can vote by going to your client, open up your wallet, you go to the voting tab and you have to unlock your wallet completely. So right click the poll. You want to vote on a click vote and then choose your option and click. It's either vote or send, I forget. And then when you're done, do not forget to re lock your wallet.
  12.  
  13. Speaker 4: 00:02:57 Oh, I'll get around to it eventually. Ah, you're
  14.  
  15. Speaker 3: 00:03:00 the person. Uh, the other poll that is going on right now is the reimbursement for the BOINC workshop attendees and speakers. That's reimbursement for myself. [inaudible] leg and loaded Advils who Paul was not put together by any of us, but we are all greatly appreciative. That poll is going for a couple more days past the white paper poll. I forget when it ends, honestly. Uh, but it's just say August 15th, but it's a couple more days. Um, that one is, looks like we're going to get reimbursed with $200, but it also has not been validated. It is about [inaudible] 33 ABW out of 40. So again, vote for that one if you want it to be validated. And there is a new poll, a new proposal that was just put out today. We're not gonna talk about it too much cause it was just put out today and it's a fairly extensive proposal. It's 20 some odd pages.
  16.  
  17. Speaker 3: 00:03:50 Uh, it is proposing that we read, develop the grid corn us site under a new domain name, which would be grid coin, that world, which is the site that I have been posting a bunch of documents on just to, you know, give a central point of a central resource to get some important information out there. Um, it says we want to redesign it, we want to recode it, we want to code it on a professional level. We have a developer lined up, it's Mad Max Payne and his team when max pain is the designer of the site as well. We had max pain did the design for the Gui assets is designing the white papers, should that pull be validated and if the a website poll gets passed he will be designing that as well. So the thinking there is we'll have a single designer doing three critical assets, which means we'll have some design uniformity across the platform, which is pretty neat.
  18.  
  19. Speaker 3: 00:04:41 Uh, he also has a team of developers and the developers are the ones that need to get paid mad max is doing the design for free. So there is a request for funds is 2000 US dollars for the development or know for the development side of it. Uh, and then there is going to be brand new content in the site. The proposal at least, and that content would be put together by a team led by myself. And it's currently a team for me, robotic mind and who is Terrence Lee. And we're asking for 500 US dollars to get that content out. And in the proposal you can see the uh, the page outline and a cap or design sketch. So it's basically just a bunch of tables that show sort of how the pages will be laid out and we're going to try and design it with some design principles in mind from the ground up.
  20.  
  21. Speaker 3: 00:05:30 So a progressive disclosure, which means you basically just guide the user through a learning process without them knowing they're going through a learning process. Uh, and we would design with simplicity in mind, which would be, and we would get rid of most of the walls of text. We would use cards and infographs to display information so that when people go to the website, they're not overwhelmed. All of this is described in the proposal and I'm sure we'll talk about it more next week because it's a total of 2,500 US dollars requested based on the 30 day moving average before the poll was made. Uh, so that comes at a 700,000. GRC requested a 350,000 would come from, uh, well the way the funds would be raised, it's a fund match similar to how we did the GUI, where 350,000 is sought to be raised from the community.
  22.  
  23. Speaker 3: 00:06:20 And if that is raised, the foundation will match the second 350,000 GRC. And of course, I mean you guys know us, the people have already this together. We've all been around for a while. So we do have grid coin's best interest at heart. So if the price changes in the positive, as we get closer to the point where we're requesting funding, we will probably send some GRC back or reimburse their foundation polls. So we're getting the USD equivalent, uh, of what we're requesting. Uh, so like if we're requesting 700,000 GRC and all of a sudden the GRC price goes up to a cent or 2 cent, all of a sudden that's going to be much more than 2,500 US dollars. So we're going to reduce the amount of GRC we take in. So we match to 2,500 US dollars. Right? A little confusing, but read the proposal and feel free to reach out to by cell phone, slack, or discord if you have any questions, do it publicly or privately, whichever you feel more comfortable with or posts on.
  24.  
  25. Speaker 3: 00:07:13 One of the threads is on git hub reddit or steamit and this pole is going until September 5th, I believe. So it's a four week poll. Uh, this is also an outreach poll. It requires 40% AVW to validate. Uh, so yeah, I would love to talk about this in more depth next week. So people here who talk a lot, please read the proposal by next week so we can have a sort of larger discussion about what this website is trying to do. Moving on, we have a new Twitter and it's not weird. This is my own Twitter account. It's not affiliated or a representative account in any way or pushing your personal brand. Really! It's called grid coin and memes. It is modeled offer after Dutch, doge coin memes Twitter account. Basically I'm just posting memes up there about grid coin happy. Uh, friendly memes, uh, that don't, uh, step on any other communities or, or aren't negative in any way.
  26.  
  27. Speaker 3: 00:08:07 That's the idea at least. And in the process of doing this, I'm buying your memes. So come onto discord, join the grid coin memes channel and if you post a meme and I like it, I'll buy it for 10 GRC and there were a couple of other price points in there as well. I'll buy a meme that interacts with another crypto community in a positive way for 15 GRC I will buy just content that other people can put into memes like your GRC logos, stuff like that for five GRC. Then if I have a special request, the going price for those for 20 GRC, but I come under the discord and say hello and try and sell some means. Hello there fellow Kids. Exactly. Are you gonna make a post about this on reddit? I feel like reddit would be a great place to start. Um, threats for that. I did. I feel like the image posting in, uh, in the g in grid coin reddit grid coin
  28.  
  29. Speaker 4: 00:08:56 sub-reddit is a significantly lacking their needs. Their needs much, much more memes. Much more meams, not many. Much more. I guess you're right. I could just say that if you posted on Reddit, I'll buy your memes. I don't know if we have a GRC tip bot on reddit. I think there is a tip bot show with it. Yeah, yeah. Right. It's one of those like, I think people should just be posting nonstop of them. And then if you see one you like, you just, you just tip them. Right.
  30.  
  31. Speaker 5: 00:09:21 Technically thats true. But, uh, the one that sau412 developed this down for, I don't know what the reason was.
  32.  
  33. Speaker 3: 00:09:27 Oh yeah. Robotic grind reminds us that we do, it's from a S A U four 12. I think it's SAU412. Uh, but I will, yeah, I'll make another post. Soundings. Just posted my reddit posts saying gimme your memes. Uh, but I'll post Wednesday and that I'll buy em if you post them on reddit. But that just means I need to stock up my reddit account with some GRC. I've already spent like, you know, a hundred GRC or so on memes on discord. I can't do this forever, but I think I can do it forever.
  34.  
  35. Speaker 4: 00:09:50 Well, let's see what happens. So be your whole 4 cent. The 40 cents goes broke from memes. Exactly. I think that one stake equals one meme. Woo. Nice. What kind of stake? I was literally looking at pictures of a steak when you said that. So I got very confused. Is that what you do? You're doing this podcast. That's what God was doing. Every podcast we a picture of, of a grill and I'm sorry that I have a personal life. I'm so sorry. I'm sorry. We've killed him. Killed Jim. He's dead. Look how upset I am. You did this. All right. All right, moving on. And
  36.  
  37. Speaker 3: 00:10:30 he goes, we do have a fun topic today and we've got a hard stop a little after nine. So, uh, another news item this week we have the grid coin monthly report, which is report put together by Crypto Swiss. He also helps the state of the network reports. So this monthly report comes out towards that at the beginning of the month and he said the networks come out at the end of the month. So that's pretty nice to have two of them going. Do check that out. I the link in the description below and I'll have links to threads describing all of the stuff I just talked about in the description of blow above to the side, wherever, uh, the platform decides to put the description. Oh, sorry. Speaking of platforms, we are also now on the library platform. This L B R Y Dot. Io. They are a cryptocurrency and blockchain as a platform similar to steamit but also very, very different.
  38.  
  39. Speaker 3: 00:11:16 It's the same concept but they are a great community, very lively community. Check them out and you can find us on the platform itself. Feel free to tip us with some LBC, which are library credits. Uh, and that would help out with podcasts. Definitely we'll be able to do more initiatives. The more money we get, the more fun stuff we can do. I will have a link to that, a web link and platform link so you don't need download the platform to see the content and library. You can go right in the webs right in a browser, but you can also download the platform and it's really smooth platform. I downloaded it years ago when it first came out and it was. Frankly was shit, they have done a lot of development since then and it is now very, very smooth, very impressed. Um, and I think that's all the news I got for us this week.
  40.  
  41. Speaker 3: 00:12:03 Oh, TX bit. We got a vote going on for a new exchange called txbit and you have to, you know, it's a community run that's a community vote. Whoever it gets, whichever coin gets the most votes, gets a free listing on that exchange, which is great for us because we could use more exchanges. Uh, the way to vote will be in a article, I link in the description, but basically you go to the exchange, you create an account, you enable two factor authentication and then you vote once per 24 hours. I repeat, you can vote once every day. So we are currently winning that poll by quite a bit, but it would be great to show off that we completely blew it away. So just because we're winning does not mean you should stop voting, continue to vote. If you remember, vote every day, get that number up there and then we can show off how active and dedicated our community is to other people who might be interested in that sort of metric.
  42.  
  43. Speaker 3: 00:12:58 Is that uh, investors? Uh, I believe so. Delta also just posted the link in the chat here, but it will definitely be in the description of this episode of this recording. Uh, robotic mindsets is also in the announcements channel and discord and you know, a bunch of us go around pestering everyone to, to vote everyday. We remind everyone of everything all the time cause it's really exciting. It would be nice to have another listing on this exchange, which has been around for a little bit. All right. I think that's everything I got. So Netflix has a super secret news item he wants to share with us. Nethlik and do your thing.
  44.  
  45. Speaker 5: 00:13:30 All right, so a delta and robotic mind and me. We got together and we decided, uh, you know, the Bittrex delisting and everything, the community could use a little morale boost. And so we're going to be having another Emoji contest this time Jringo it's going to be in your honor because the ridiculous amount of work you've put into this community and everything, it's just deserves a little extra recognition. So it's going to be a, submissions are going to be open for uh, five days, followed by two days of voting. Um, the winner will be announced at a fireside next. And if you, if you have any ideas for themes that you like people to go forward, just, you know, now's the time.
  46.  
  47. Speaker 3: 00:14:11 I can't think when I'm crying your name based off the name go the game. Go that really.
  48.  
  49. Speaker 5: 00:14:19 But before I forget that the price money, uh, it starts at 1000 GRC, but it's open to donations so you can raise the pot too.
  50.  
  51. Speaker 3: 00:14:27 Hi, I you, more details will be posted soon. Okay,
  52.  
  53. Speaker 5: 00:14:30 well you mean soon. I said posted as soon as I said you haven't posted it yet. Who? Delta.
  54.  
  55. Speaker 3: 00:14:35 Hey, I got like a robotic mind doing that. That's his responsibility.
  56.  
  57. Speaker 5: 00:14:39 Well robotic what are you waiting for anyway. Um, so yeah, that's, that's happening and right. And during the you're both going to be worth five times as much as a regular loads and it's going to be a breaker, you know, just like the other times. [inaudible]
  58.  
  59. Speaker 3: 00:14:53 all right. Thanks guys. That's really nice. I'm promised to abuse mine. Thank you. Whatever he voted for, everyone in the committee should vote. The other one. All right, so that's going announce the winner. Next week is submission. How do you post a submission? You just post it in the memes channel to be on archive that are not the main channel.
  60.  
  61. Speaker 5: 00:15:13 Want to get pulled out of the archive that's going to be public soon and then yeah, people can sit in there.
  62.  
  63. Speaker 3: 00:15:19 The emoji contrast channel. Yep. Awesome. Cool. How does one make an Emoji. I mentioned it's similar to a meme, but they have to be [inaudible]. I'm pretty sure it's very different cause I think once but much more similar to like Pixel Art, right? Yeah. It's gotta be 32 by 32, which is kind of ridiculous. Yeah. If you have any questions, just ask, uh, who is doing it? An Nethlik robotic, uh, and Delta. Yeah, just ask me random questions. I've mind. I totally, I will help you if you ask me that. I don't know the answer, but I will help you find it. All right. Well with that note then, I guess we'll move on to the project brief here. Uh, Delta will be teaching us about Yo-yo at home. Go for it, man.
  64.  
  65. Speaker 6: 00:16:01 Cool. So hello everyone again. Uh, this is another segment of the project brief. Um, in this segment I'll be talking about volunteer scientific projects and I'll be explaining them in really simple terms and how you can become a volunteer scientist. I'd ask that old questions be left to the end where we can have a small discussion about, um, what the project is about. Today we're talking about Yo-yo at home and this is the firth first a math project that we'll be talking about on my project brief segments. Now, Yo-yo was started in 2007 and it's currently hosted in Germany. And they do lots and lots and lots of number crunching, even more than probably, um, SETI at home all that because they are a pure math project. And, uh, so I'm going to try and explain some of this math in more of the simple terms and an easy way to sort of think about it and what you might actually be discovering when you actually run this project.
  66.  
  67. Speaker 6: 00:16:59 So the basic principle behind Yo-yo at home is something called brute forcing. So basically when you have no other logical option to solve a problem, you just try every single possibility until you get it. And that's what a lot of the math projects sort of do because there is no real, sort of logical process to find all these infinite numbers. Um, and uh, also I should mention people posting pictures of Yo-yos in the chat and, uh, I think I could not find any resources about why Yo-yo at homes called Yo-yo at home. So I unfortunately can't answer that question. Okay. Back on the topic of brute forcing. Um, so the easiest example is just a game of, um, one, one of those games that you'll see at like a circus or like a magician show where they have a couple of cups and they might have a, or a bowl in one of the cups and say, cover the bowl, the bowl with one of the cups, and then you place all the other cups in the same fashion.
  68.  
  69. Speaker 6: 00:17:57 You switched them around and then you've got to figure out where the ball is. Now, theoretically if he didn't see how he rearranged them, then you'd pretty much don't know where the ball is and you'll have to guess, right? Well, Brute forcing is like picking up one of the cups, one of a time in, in succession. So going through all the cups until you find the ball. Another example is also with your passwords. Um, usually some people have lots and lots of different passwords that they keep. So what they do is they just go through each of the passwords they remember in the head until they get, get the right one for the website that logging into. So, uh, the Yoyo at home has a lot of different math projects or as we call sub projects. So you can get to choose, um, you can choose to do a lot of different things in yo-yo at home.
  70.  
  71. Speaker 6: 00:18:40 But I'm just gonna go through a couple of them. One of them is what's called the Elliptic Curve factorization now. Yep. Lots of terminology there, but it's actually quite simple when you go onto the Internet usually, and when you go onto a secured site, you, your computer and the server that you communicating with, we'll exchange a couple of numbers. And so these, these numbers are special such that you have purely encrypted communications between you and the server. Now the issue is if someone can guess these numbers or if someone can crack these numbers, they can essentially decrypt all the communications between you and the server and you connection will no longer be private. And so what yoyo at home does is tries to figure out these numbers through a process known as factorization and um, essentially it works with stuff called elliptic curves. And so it's just a special type of curve that, um, when plotted points on it and connected and connecting the points you get, um, as eventually the s of the number that you want.
  72.  
  73. Speaker 6: 00:19:41 And so, yeah, you at home tries to find old possible combinations of, um, the, uh, factorized elliptic curve numbers. Now the importance of this is that if we are able to, um, find bigger and bigger numbers by just shear brute force, as we said, um, it really puts our car and cryptography at risk and it puts the Internet security at risk and it tells Internet security researchers that we need to increase the security of our security mechanisms essentially. So, uh, in most cases that would just mean making the numbers much bigger. Another type of a project that they do is what's called the Golomb ruler. Now this project is actually a part of distributed.net, which is a completely different, um, distributed computing, um, site that a the similar to BOINC, but it was, uh, running I think earlier than BOINC if I'm not mistaken.
  74.  
  75. Speaker 6: 00:20:29 And uh, they run a couple of different projects too, but not as vast as the scientific projects that Boinc has. So what a golem rule is, is essentially a rule, but you pick certain points on the ruler such that each of the points is, uh, has a completely different a distance when compared to any of the other points. So an example of one of the simpler rulers is zero one and three. So the difference between zero and one is one, the difference between zero and three is three. And the difference between one and three is two. So they all have different distances from each other. And uh, so far we've been able to find a ruler as big as 27 numbers. That might seem pretty measly, but there's a lot of this, a lot of combinations you have to go through to actually find these rules and it's ridiculously hard to get them.
  76.  
  77. Speaker 6: 00:21:22 So that quite rare, currently Yo-yo at home, uh, and distributed.net, uh, searching for the rule of length, uh, 28. Um, so yeah, the importance of the Golomb Ruler is that, um, it can actually be applied to certain things in reality. So for example, um, one example is error correction. So in error correcting memory, they might use a Golomb Ruler to try and ensure that they have most of the memory covered. Um, also an interesting one and does relate to Seti at home. Um, the positioning of radio antenna. So, um, s uh, scientists might position radio antenta according to a Golomb Ruler so that they get the most efficiency and the most, um, optimization out of receiving the signals because when this spice to pot, um, differently, they all collect the waves. Um, they will collect the radio waves at different times and different phases. That's so that they don't interfere.
  78.  
  79. Speaker 6: 00:22:20 They don't get repeating, uh, signals. And, uh, yeah, just generally optimizing that collection, of the data, so that's pretty much it. It's math so there's not a lot to talk about unless you want to go into the full on proofs and everything like that. But of course on a project brief, we're not into the really complex side of it. We're just trying to explain it to the general public and uh, hopefully, um, you might be interested in trying to find that next, uh, 28 length Golomb ruler. Uh, it's like a little golden nugget in the goldmine. So Yo-yo at home is a white listed BOINC project, which means that if you join the grid coin Network, you can get rewarded for your computations on your, yo yo at home. If you don't have a good computer, you can always check out and love another lovely volunteers science website called zooniverse.org.
  80.  
  81. Speaker 6: 00:23:07 He, you can contribute your brain power to solve scientific problems and it goes towards helping some really real, very real scientific issues. Next time, uh, I'm going to change up my schedule a next fortnight, so not next week, but the week after I'll be coming back on and I'll be talking about world community grid. So it'd be talking a little bit more about protein folding in some of the projects that world community grid does. So this concludes the project brief and let's move on to the discussion. Yeah. What's an antennae? Oh, it's just a radio antenna. Yeah. So yeah, it's, it's the plural for antenna. Yeah. So in [inaudible] I was making fun of you. You have any additions yet? So it could be anything from a radio dish to even like the antenna on your roof. Scientists use all sorts of different antennas.
  82.  
  83. Speaker 3: 00:23:59 Hi. I do have a question only how big of a ruler do we need for these applications?
  84.  
  85. Speaker 6: 00:24:05 Well, we're currently up to 27 and I don't think scientists really need 27 radio antennae. Um, so, uh, but I mean, you never know. We might find another use for these rulers in the future, but, uh, some people might say the novelty of finding these numbers is pretty cool.
  86.  
  87. Speaker 3: 00:24:25 Yeah. Actually, we had a discussion about this on the blank discord the other day where just like, I think you put it, who hasn't no robotic of mine put it while when he's like, well the, the, the reason you look at this stuff is cause you don't know what use it's gonna serve in the future. It's kind of like foundational science or foundational mathematics where you're just kind of tinkering around, experimenting, you know, playing in a sandbox and yeah, it was on the bunk discard. Yeah. And you never know what you're going to find and a, in the future, who knows how, uh, you know, we might find out that we need like 50 and 10, eight in a row days to do something really, really nice. Maybe
  88.  
  89. Speaker 6: 00:25:02 just interactions with satellites when we stop moving out into space. So Golomb rulers might come in handy then. But the brilliant thing is, is that all this data's open and its got open. I think there's a database online you can find someone with all the results of all Golomb rulers, I know Wikipedia just has old listed. Golomb rule is so far, and it's the great thing about science and especially math project is they like to keep all of their results open because essentially you sort of want to brag about, aw, look at me. I found the 28th, the 28th Golomb Ruler so quick question, how long do it, how long is it expected to take to find that as a, is that going to be like a, we don't think it's ever going to be found or is that like a, it's probably going to be found within the next five to 10 years or, well, they found the, um, uh, I actually, I can look on Wikipedia real quick right now, but um, of how long it took to find the other ones, but you will get it eventually.
  90.  
  91. Speaker 6: 00:25:55 The only issue is that I think the more numbers should go up, the more exponentially harder it gets. So, um, in simple terms it means okay, if it took you one day to get out the first one, then uh, it'll take around 10 days to get the next one. If anyone has any more questions, a post and I'm just gonna quickly check Wikipedia of how long the other golden rule was took on distributed.net I just just want to take this moment to just say I'm very proud of chat for not just not just. Uh, there's a lot of yo-yos in there, just not, not, not just, not just doing it once, not a few times, but relentless relentlessly posting pictures of yo-yos throughout this entire conversation. Um, Bravo and thank you for your contributions. I know it wasn't really like hard to find, but it's like, it's pretty relentless.
  92.  
  93. Speaker 6: 00:26:44 I think my favorite is still the dog playing with Yoyo. Let's just go horrible. Um, anyway, so I have the dates up here. So the 25th Golomb ruler was found in 2008, and then one year later we found the 26th one. And then, um, in 2014, we found the 27th one. So there's a big gap between the 26th and 27th. And currently there's a really big gap since 2014. So, uh, we could be finding the a 28 Golomb ruler a pretty soon. What, what was the gap again? From 25 to 20 s is 25th to 26 Golomb Ruler it's one year from 26 to 27th. It is, uh, five years. Gotcha. So, uh, it's not, it's not two x. It's, it's exponential, right? Yeah. It will be exponential. The more numbers you have, the more harder it gets to find that special number cause there's so much more possibilities. Yeah. That, that being said, I feel like we also need to take into account the fact of the, uh, the hardware growth speed growth right. During that time period. Yep. Right. So is computers get a lot better? We get
  94.  
  95. Speaker 3: 00:27:51 all right. So we're gonna move on to the main topic here, which is a discussion on wealth distribution in a cryptocurrencies with wealth equality or was called Guinea factor. Or Jenny, you know, I've never learned how to actually pronounce it. I'll describe that, uh, that, that coefficient is that Guinea coefficient. Uh, and then I'll just throw it over the chocolate. Who will serve, introduced to this topic. And then we'll have a discussion. So the Guinea Coefficient is a measurement invented in the Oh, early 19 hundreds. I'm gonna say in the tens sometime like 19, 10 to 1920 is the time. And uh, it basically measures the wealth distribution in, Eh, in a nation or another word for nation is in an economic network. So, uh, you can look at the Guinea Coefficient since Fiat became a thing since Bretton Woods in the 70s, early seventies. And you will see that it is going up rapidly. So a high Guinea Coefficient means that wealth is centralized. If it was one, it would mean that all wealth is held by one person. So when bitcoin was first started, the Guinea Coefficient of Bitcoin was one because Satoshi Nakamoto was the first person that mine. And until someone else mined a Bitcoin, they were the only person or people to have bitcoin. So that would be all one Guinea coefficient. A low, Guinea coefficient means that wealth is evenly distributed, uh, and not highly centralized. Uh,
  96.  
  97. Speaker 5: 00:29:17 I think you're mispronouncing that according to bargain, it's pronounced
  98.  
  99. Speaker 3: 00:29:20 Jeanie ise is Italian, isn't he? Okay. Genie or genie genie. That was, could be Jeannie or
  100.  
  101. Speaker 5: 00:29:29 Jeannie, but definitely not getting,
  102.  
  103. Speaker 3: 00:29:31 I just like Guinea pigs. All right. So however you pronounce it, that's what that coefficient is. And the people in cryptocurrency talk about it a lot, even though it's very difficult to measure it in cryptocurrency land because, uh, things are a little more anonymous and you can have more than one wallet, you know, you can have more than one bank account, blah, blah, blah. There's a lot of things to talk about there. Let's try not to get into the actual measurement of the Guinea, but, or the Gini. But, uh, we'll talk about the principles behind it and sort of the, the way that wealth is distributed among, uh, people in cryptocurrency networks. Uh, so was that little introduction. I'll toss it over chocolate here for, to lead the main discussion.
  104.  
  105. Speaker 7: 00:30:09 Um, yeah. Speaking of, uh, the Gini Coefficient, I'm gonna post something right now. One second. Um, so that's a very interesting link, uh, that does, uh, that contains a lot of statistical analyses on inequality throughout all throughout time, not throughout all time, obviously, but throughout many different time periods as well as many different countries throughout many different time periods. And so like one and just interesting tidbit, but at the beginning is that, um, the possibility for a inequality, right, it rises like the Gini Coefficient Possible Gini Coefficient, uh, uh, is higher in richer societies because in poorer societies, uh, that are closer to subsistence levels, uh, inequality cannot be great because that means there will be too many people below subsistence levels, but just impossible because it is kind of by definition, if you're below subsistence level, then then you're going to die, um, and then you're not in the society anymore.
  106.  
  107. Speaker 7: 00:31:06 So, um, um, it's just a, that was just an interesting link in case anybody wants more data on that. Um, and so, uh, there are, I mean, we can, I don't know, I guess just start out by talking about inequality in general, um, in cryptocurrency specifically. Uh, uh, and I think the main issue, one of the main issues with inequality is, uh, that it goes against the main ethos of, uh, cryptocurrencies, which is decentralization. I think that's the biggest, um, the biggest threat. And by the way, I mean, obviously I think, I think it goes without saying that, um, you know, there's always going to be some level of inequality and this is quite obvious. Um, and you know, only the most, you know, radical people who I don't agree with, you know, I would say everybody should have an equal amount of problems, blah.
  108.  
  109. Speaker 7: 00:31:58 Uh, but I mean, it's also quite equally radical to say people, uh, should have, you know, it was just absolutely insane, uh, in suddenly disproportionate amounts of some currency because obviously that, uh, ultimately infringes on people's liberties. Um, so why does, uh, why does, um, wealth inequality matter in, uh, in, uh, cryptocurrencies in particular? So I brought essentially the issue of centralization. And so, um, I guess I'll, I'll go from the most general point, which is a one it makes for, um, especially in proof of stake currencies. And it makes it a very easy to fork, uh, a, uh blockchain, also to double spend. Um, there are many, many attacks that are possible, uh, on, on the blockchain ecosystem. Uh, when you know, wealth is concentrated in very, very small number of hands. Um, and by the way, you know, hard forks are not the only kinds of forking attacks that are possible.
  110.  
  111. Speaker 7: 00:32:58 For example, there are things called feather forks. Um, you can try, you can blacklist nodes saying, I'm not going to accept any transactions that are coming into our, uh, um, any inputs, uh, from this, uh, address or any outputs going into to this address. And you can effectively blacklist a node. And, um, uh, basically, um, you can, if I'm not going to go through the math, but you can basically convince other people to also blacklist that node effectively because you're so powerful and then you can black list it. Um, and so, uh, you know, uh, a large amount of inequality in the, and this is proof of six, specifically in, in proof of work. The analogy would be mining power. Um, uh, you know, it's very dangerous. And, and, um, and antithetical to, uh, one of the main purposes of, of cryptocurrencies, which is, uh, you know, decentralization.
  112.  
  113. Speaker 7: 00:33:51 Um, and, uh, so few other kind of, uh, main points and then maybe you can open it up for discussion. Uh, so another problem with, um, you know, huge levels of inequality is, um, there's a limit on the velocity of money. So the velocity of money is various kind of kind of simplifying it as a how, how, how much currencies is flowing throughout the economy, how much of it is being used, um, how much of it is being spent, uh, um, as opposed to how much of it is being saved and stuffed away and so on. Uh, and you know, uh, in the higher velocity of money, when you have more economic activity going on, obviously your, your economy is more likely to grow. Uh, and so, uh, you know, it highly, highly centralized, you know, uh, you know, power and in terms of currency, uh, really prevents, um, you know, people being able to, uh, you know, engage in a robust economy and so that, that greatly limits the ability for the blockchain community to actually grow.
  114.  
  115. Speaker 7: 00:34:56 Um, uh... Element, your mic is hot. Um, and um, so, uh, what was the third thing I was going to bring up coming in one second. Uh, um, all right. And right then, so the third, a third thing I was going to bring up was a as well as, um, it's also the, the incentives, um, behind, uh, you know, when somebody is looking to join or when somebody involved in, in the cryptocurrency community, uh, you know, uh, what they're willing to contribute in a sense is what is, is, um, informed by how much they are going. I'm going to be able to get out of it. Right. That's not the only thing that's informed by, of course, you know, if you do a charity or so on and, but you get something I'm sharing as well. But I'm, I'm speaking strictly in economic terms, uh, how much you are willing to contribute, how much you're able to contribute.
  116.  
  117. Speaker 7: 00:35:45 In fact, uh, is very much in a forum, the house you're going to get out of, uh, what you're contributing to. And so, um, there was a very, uh, interesting part, um, recently, uh, there was an article that Jringo posted recently that about, uh, an etherium developer, uh, I think it was a core developer who was, um, Jringo yet tuned. Do you have that? Yeah. Sorry, I just pushed your talk is controls when I copy paste, if it don't pick, keep going. That's okay. Yeah, no, the same thing happened to me earlier. Um, so, um, so yeah, uh, you know, an ethereum developer, uh, you know, oh yeah, Jringo just posted it. Um, lashes out I think might be a, yeah, that of course. You know how sometimes journalists can be a bit, uh, um, uh, what's the word?
  118.  
  119. Speaker 7: 00:36:34 Uh, hyperbolic. Hyperbolic. Yes. Thank you. Uh, the general's consensus, we agreed at hopper ball, like, I wouldn't call that lashing out, but you know, the, an ethereum developer pointed out that, um, eh, that the, uh, what happened in ethereum was that they had a new, a genesis block in the 70% of the currency and the some days that 70% of the ether and the genesis block went, uh, to the developers. And I think it was just developers, maybe other core core people as well. Um, and, uh, you know, he was pointing out and kind of more general argument that, you know, like, well, you know, you know, how much am I contributing to this? You know, there's only, you know, there's somewhat of a limit in, in, uh, when you think about it. Um, it, the etherium obviously, you know, skyrocket, skyrocketed in price. And so, you know, it's possible for even for developers who came a bit later to start contributing and make something, make some money from it, but, uh, that, um, ability is going to be kind of limited, uh, more and more as the price stabilizes.
  120.  
  121. Speaker 7: 00:37:38 Um, and so, uh, you know, they might be able to make something, but the incentive is, isn't as high to contribute. And in fact, the incentive can oftentimes, um, be to go and start your own thing and try to be a competitor. Um, Eh, and I guess I'll just bring up a, a fourth thing as well, which is, you know, the, the, the stability, uh, and the, you know, I don't remember if the social fabric isn't, isn't the best term for it, but you know, uh, how, how happy are people when they look at the state of the network, um, and you know, the, the wealth inequality and, you know, uh, you know, who's going to, um, you know, who, who's benefiting from all this work, you know, uh, is this, uh, is this wealth inequality contributing to what, to our values as a community and what we want to achieve. Uh, and you know, uh, you know, those are some, some basic questions. Um, I guess I'll, I'll, I'll set aside the, the, the topic, uh, inequality
  122.  
  123. Speaker 3: 00:38:36 specifically in, in, in the grid coin community for now. Cause grid coin is kind of an interesting special situation. Um, what you said so far, cause you've been here, uh, I want to go off of sort of your last point there and tied into your second point having to do with incentives and then the, what you were talking about with the ethereum developer and the point they raised. So I think I'm going to do this by explaining sort of the history of cryptocurrency a little bit and wealth distribution in cryptocurrency. I talked a little bit about the posts are a little bit about it in the post, the start this discussion. And uh, basically, you know, all coins started in 2011, but those were highly experimental alt coins. Uh, the true alt coin boom that a lot of us are familiar with is like 2000, 13 and 14.
  124.  
  125. Speaker 3: 00:39:20 And when people started doing altcoins there, they, um, there were no ICOs, right. And most people listening to this are going to be familiar with an ICO, so I won't get too much into that. They were their own blockchains. Each alkane coin was their own black chain and they would just like bitcoin created genesis block and then the blockchain would run from there. Uh, and there were two ways that people could do this. They would do an open access release where they would just release the code of the blockchain and then, you know, the developer would clearly be the first person to start running the software, but that was the most equitable. It wasn't the most equitable option, but out of all the things that were done, it was the most equitable way to release a block chain, uh, because it let anyone start participating right from the start.
  126.  
  127. Speaker 3: 00:40:05 And you know, yes, the first coins would go to the original developer and that sort of, you know, makes sense. A little bit incentive. They built this thing from the ground up, right? Uh, other way people would release coins is called a Prebuyin where they would have a group of people. Sometimes the development teams, sometimes just a group of friends who forked the code and change a single variable in the code and then renamed with the coin. Uh, and those groups of that group of people would keep the source code to themselves. It's themselves, start the blockchain, mine it for x number of blocks, and then release the code to the open, uh, open world and anyone could then participate. So they would essentially pre mine a bunch of coins and that would be their development stash. Uh, and then come ICO, which are essentially pre mines, except without blockchains.
  128.  
  129. Speaker 3: 00:40:52 ICOs are easier way to look at them as IPOs. They're like stocks, they're like companies with stocks where they, they, they're going to mint a bunch of coins and your tokens and give them out, but they're going to keep a large portion of them to fund development in fund all this stuff. And this way, you know, this technically a security. So this way, there's a lot of crackdowns going on right now in the US in particular. So there's the thinking behind the, the, the idea of giving most of the early coins to the development team or the original progenitor of the coin is that they did a lot of the work and they're going to continue to do a lot of the work going into the future. They need these funds to, you know, dedicate to be able to dedicate a lot of time to the project.
  130.  
  131. Speaker 3: 00:41:37 And some coins did do that where the developers continue to develop it. If the room is a good example, I mean, they had a 70% premium, that's a lot. Uh, people would get up in arms for like a 10% pre mine, uh, in 2013 before ethereum and not yet. So hold the question. So sorry. We're in the middle of something left out. Raise your hand in the chat if you want. Uh, so, uh, the thinking that is that these developers would then distribute coins. So the, the next question. So that's initial distribution. And the next question is, um, how do coins then get distributed out of those wallets? And the thinking is that people would usually coins, they would spend them, they would sell them to then buy their local currency or yeah, they would sell them to then get their local currency and you know, buy food and stuff to help support them on their developing.
  132.  
  133. Speaker 3: 00:42:30 In fact, there's a lot of people didn't do that. Uh, but the thinking there is that is a way to distribute a currency. You're selling it to early investors, uh, as they come in early believers in the network. And that's a way to distribute coins. And a lot of this is done in proof of work systems. So a, that usually is just fine. Uh, but you know, if you don't distribute the coins over time, particularly to people who come into the network and do a lot of really good work, uh, you're kind of ... Tied back to the chocolate was saying about incentives, you're disincentivizing people to come into the network and do good work because what they're seeing is the people in the beginning solely profiting off of the work of people who come later. Uh, so that distribution concept of continually continuously distributing coins over time, uh, whether it's donations or running initiatives, whatever, or just selling on the market during upswings to keep volitility down.
  134.  
  135. Speaker 3: 00:43:29 That is almost necessary for a healthy, uh, economy that is run off a pre mine or an early distribution mechanism. Uh, oh, I have one more thing I wanted to add to that, but I've lost my train of thought here. Uh, oh. So those are proof of work systems with proof of stake systems. Early holders are incentivized the to hold their coins because they then get more money out of the protocol. So it proof of state kind of disincentivizes whales to early whales to distribute their coins. It's a very interesting, a relationship between early whales and the requirement of a network to have those early whales to distribute coins because the more coins someone holds, the more their stake, the more the stake, the more GRC they get or any coin in proof of stakes. This. So one example of a coin that had a open access distribution and then distributed coins through, uh, building things is bitcoin.
  136.  
  137. Speaker 3: 00:44:26 Bitcoin had a fairly open access distribution. It was a mailing list and it was open source, just boom. And what the early miners did is exchange with one another and then build really cool stuff. They built several different, like bitcoin foundations, uh, they built companies and then they hired people and paid them in bitcoin. And that created a network effect. And we see the effects of that network effect still today. Uh, some of them are very famous people like the Winklevos who did get in fairly late compared to the people I'm talking about who were creating the, the original foundations in like 2011 to 12. But to use the popular example of the Winklevos Twins, they created an entire exchange and they're paying people in bitcoin. Another really famous example is the guy who does Twitter, right? What's this? Is it Jack Dorsey? He pays people in Bitcoin if they want it.
  138.  
  139. Speaker 3: 00:45:18 Uh, it, it creates this really cool network effect that is critical to these sorts of network survival in the longterm. So I think that ties a, the attempt and the intent there at least was to tie sort of explain where, why the wealth distribution, uh, w is so is the way it is. And a lot of these coins is because of the way they were released and the thinking behind why they were released that way. And then to tie that in with incentives with how you're supposed to distribute coins over time so that more people come in and see that, hey, these people are distributing coins to people who do good work just because they understand that by doing so they're going to attract more people that do good work. And when you attract more people to do good work, you increased the value of your remaining holdings from the perspective of a whale.
  140.  
  141. Speaker 3: 00:46:03 It is in their economic best interest to distribute coins in that way. And then to add onto that, you have that interacting with the way proof of stake works were set when proof of stake says it's in your economic best interest to hold coins and stake. So they have to make a tough choice there. And it's understandable that it's very tough choice. Uh, but when you look at the way some coins have run in, their history is the better choice. I think it's very clear and that's the distribution of coins over time. Not on a huge level. You don't stop becoming a whale, but you do things smartly to to bring people into the network and create a network effect. All right. Facts by, sorry to cut you off earlier, but you cut me off first. What was your question.
  142.  
  143. Speaker 8: 00:46:42 I was, I was getting excited, but you know, like I have a question which is there's somebody, oh, in the Gridcoin Network with 20% of the supply as mentioned by a, I like chocolate last week and uh, I'm concerned about that. How is the community going to deal with that, if at all, at all?
  144.  
  145. Speaker 7: 00:47:00 Well, to be clear, wait, hold on. Typically or just the Carson, it's not one person with 20% of the points. It was those two addresses as of a year ago had together two addresses, two different people as far as we know, had 20% of the points. So just, yeah,
  146.  
  147. Speaker 8: 00:47:15 it's, it's still, it's still a big chunk over supplies. So does anybody have any ideas on how the deal was that
  148.  
  149. Speaker 3: 00:47:23 before we get into super specifics, let me clarify that this is something that plagues every single cryptocurrency. Do not know of one that has a, uh, an equitable distribution or a more equitable distribution than others. They all have massive centralization and grid coin frankly, has a fair. The gridcoin was an open access release and it bootstrapped off of proof of work first and then went to proof of stake, which is honestly one of the best ways to have started a coin with the information known at that time. But go ahead. Go, whoa. We know what the problem is as of now. So maybe we could develop a governance or something. To deal with it, I mean how many, how many,
  150.  
  151. Speaker 4: 00:48:07 how many, how much bitcoin does the original creator have?
  152.  
  153. Speaker 3: 00:48:10 Satoshi has a a lot, there's a link here that will break down. Bitcoin's is highly centralized and a lot of people in that community see the centralization of bitcoin wealth as one of the main issues to bitcoin because it's similar to gold. It's similar to ripple. You know, ripple is a highly centralized release. Uh, and when you would have a centralized market like that, you don't have a market. So it's hard to say how it's gonna work. Oh, I totally forgot to mention. Um, problem number five, uh, uh, uh, having a huge amount of wealth inequality allows the t people to manipulate markets as well. And we know that.
  154.  
  155. Speaker 4: 00:48:49 Yeah, I mean it's just, um, well let me rephrase that. It's like, can a few people effect the market? Yes. [inaudible] the other thing you have to worry about is when, um, a medium sized group of people all band together and so like there, it's the same exact, I mean, you can affect them as anything you see in the happening in the stock market regarding stock market manipulation and effectively push it towards a crypto as well. But the fact that you have, you know, groups of people all agreeing, all right, let's get in this chat room. We're all gonna buy this really small one. It's gonna cause a blip. People who have a automatic traders and people who are watching these smaller, smaller cryptos or a smaller stocks outside of our group, we'll think the stocks jumping, as soon as they start buying it, we'll all sell it and then it'll shoot up and then they'll drop it.
  156.  
  157. Speaker 4: 00:49:36 Everyone to lose money except for us. Right? Like that that happens no matter what environment you're in, crypto or, or real world finance, whatever. Right. Um, but I, I think the same to the same token, pun intended. Um, the like the, I know, I know the worry of, of, of having a very centralized coin in terms of distribution is, is there, like, there is some worry, but the thing to remember is one, like that's just, that's the environment we live in. All crypto is at the very least, I mean, even if it, even if it is no mal-intent, uh, by the original developer, the original developer needs to kick off something needs to start securing the chain. Right? And it, it, you know, like someone has to start mining it, right? Someone has to do the debugging, someone has to do mining for debugging purposes, someone to validate that everything works like the first, how many, how many blocks of any chain I would consider to be effectively like debugging in production.
  158.  
  159. Speaker 4: 00:50:37 Right? Um, maybe there's still a bunch of people with malicious intent, but I, I honestly believe that a majority of them are just people who are just trying to, trying to get it out there and trying to establish it by having themselves as a node. Right. Um, so it, and I mean, and, and Bitcoin's pretty bad that decentralization of it, of original owners. I mean, most bitcoin's not going to move, right? Like 20% of Bitcoin to believe to be lost entirely. Right? And then there's a ton of Bitcoin to owned by the original creator who effectively hasn't moved any of it. So centralization is bad, but it's more or less what you do with the centralization. It's, it's a worry but it's not too often in the crypto world that it actually comes into effect in, in terms of, in terms of like the original creator or massive individuals
  160.  
  161. Speaker 3: 00:51:23 destroy your rewards. Hold on, raise your hand, raise your hand. Raise your hand. Is this is a hot topic. So we got, you can raise your hand Emoji. Raise your Emoji. Also hot topic dude. [inaudible] high school, place to go. So um, [inaudible] what were you saying? You said something about intent and you said uh,
  162.  
  163. Speaker 4: 00:51:45 the intent of a developer when they first make it have like pre mining, there's, there's pre mining and then the, I think there's, there's people who do some level of pre mining in order to help establish security Right?
  164.  
  165. Speaker 3: 00:51:56 So I don't think it's all your intent in a second, but the fact that it's the way everything else is done is not an argument. Just hands down. You're going to see in the coming months, people start talking about wealth distribution in cryptocurrencies at a level that I don't think we've seen in a while. You just are starting to see it with ethereum. You saw it with bitcoin in 2015 and 16. You saw, I would bit coin right before, like right after the bubble and before the bubble in 2013-14. This is a problem throughout the ecosystem that is going to have to get solved. Uh, and the way, uh, regardless of intent, uh, is you can't assign intent to someone you don't know. And someone who hasn't told you their intent, you can assume, but that never works. Uh, so the way this gets solved in my opinion is you have to, as a whale, you have to unders you, you have to realize that the way you make your crypto survive is you give money to people who do good work.
  166.  
  167. Speaker 3: 00:52:54 I know I've done quite a bit for this. I'm using myself as an example. I'm not saying give me money. I've done quite a bit for this community. I know other people in this community who have done a lot of stuff and has actively asked for donations. There are very few donations that come in from heavy wallets. It's more the people on the lower ends that ended up donating. Um, Jim is actually good example. Jim Just Po.., You know, he got a a hundred thousand GRC donation and he gave a bunch of it away, right? That's what happens when you give GRC to someone who is a good person who does good. He distributed it. I cross, he created a network effects that doesn't get out. That's the only example I know of. Something like that happen. I don't even know if the 100,000 came from a whale, uh, but it came with someone clearly with a 100,000 just to throw away at, well not throw away to give to someone who has done amazing things for this community.
  168.  
  169. Speaker 3: 00:53:43 It was right after he developed the oracle. You can look it up on reddit. Uh, so that's the way you solve it. You don't think about their intent. They're not good people. They're not bad people. They're just people with a lot of wealth. And in Bitcoin, the way they solve that problem in the beginning, you know, it's still a problem there, but in the beginning is they built stuff with it. So either people in every community who are whales have to build stuff with that money or they have to give it to people who are building stuff or they have, they have to use it. If you don't use it, what, why do you go back to it? Chocolate said, why would people work for the community? It doesn't make sense. They're not incentivized to do it. All they're doing is working to make these other people money and these other people seemingly do not do anything.
  170.  
  171. Speaker 3: 00:54:23 Now you also raised good points that they do do a lot of stuff, particularly in proof of stake systems. Uh, when we had the forking issue in grid coin to use grid coin as an example, the wells carried us through that. Uh, they saved the chain. They ran it. Uh, they carry votes, they carry, they help validate polls, they do a lot of work. But in that network level work, it's not economic network building. So it's a weird thing to do. So, but at the end of the day they're using their money to increase the value of the remaining holdings. It makes sense to me on an incentive level. All right, so going through hands, we've got foxify now.
  172.  
  173. Speaker 8: 00:55:01 Um, no you saying that uh, people can, can she reach you? Uh, things are people that are doing great work. Uh, that same time we learned throughout history, time and time again that uh, people have also run scams and saints that are malicious to, you know, uh, people have done malicious things financially to too many people. So uh, the space will definitely need some, some regulation and a current regulation. Um, and uh, you know, how much is, how much is too much GRC to have. That's another thing like, um, we need to decide on how much, like I think taxes will be viable in the future.
  174.  
  175. Speaker 3: 00:55:44 Oh,
  176.  
  177. Speaker 4: 00:55:44 you're getting very scary very quick. Really. Yeah. I'm really trying to scare away the investors cause that's purist as well to be completely fair. A lot of your, a lot of your statements aren't like, I don't want to say the wrong... That's there or your opinion. Right. And at night they come from a place of definitely like you want to see the uh, the environment improve. Right. So I, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna shoot down here them [inaudible] at least I think, I think you'd have to give more explanation behind a lot of it. But what I would say is as soon as you start saying that things can only have a maximum, right, then you start having like, it's gonna be a weird analogy, but like Minecraft only had speed runners when the end was added, right? No, it's a really weird analogy, but it works.
  178.  
  179. Speaker 4: 00:56:34 It's, it's, there's only like there's a race to get to the end as soon as you put it in. Right. And, and it, as soon as you put like a cap on things, you have to, you have to worry about it. I think that has really weird economic incentives for, for people who are, who are in the group. Like, Oh yeah, your, your wallet can only have like 2000 well then I'm just going to create like 80 wallets or I'm going to get one wallet to 10,000 and I'm done with this game or whatever this is. Right. Cause you can't be, you can't really be a currency and tell people you can only have $100 in your wallet. Right. Sorry, that was like nothing. No, you're right. I agree with you. Then I can add more to that. But first, and that's Neflik's up and then chocolate. Oh No, I don't, it didn't really have anything to say. Just when, when Goblin said, we don't want to say you're wrong, let's just, one of the but in and say, What'd you say? You're not correct. And I didn't mean that in a Sassy way, by the way. I literally meant that isn't like, I don't, I don't want to say you're wrong. I just liked this discussion.
  180.  
  181. Speaker 8: 00:57:23 All right. I'm gonna, I'm going to read this. [inaudible] what I'm concerned about there is like, people will say that I'm wrong about something there and um, but they don't go and explain why. It's like, you're just wrong. [inaudible]
  182.  
  183. Speaker 7: 00:57:40 let me, let me, uh, we'll have this conversation back in. Um, so I, uh, think that, so I'm just going to respond to a few general details about what Goblin was saying. Um, that, that what you said does not really address, uh, any of the points I made regarding the, the problems of centralization of, of huge, massive centralization of wealth. Um, uh, this is, uh, this is, uh, cryptocurrencies do not solve basic social issues like trust. Um, we cannot, uh, decentralized literally everything. Uh, and, uh, you know, this, this idea that, um, you know, they like, yes, I mean, I, I think I pointed out, um, the firesides before. I do think that early adopters should be rewarded for the work that they do. Um, and early investors should be rewarded for their precience and so on and so forth and for taking risks because those risks were important to, to development and, uh, to the growth of the coin.
  184.  
  185. Speaker 7: 00:58:40 Um, th there, uh, we have to understand that this phenomenon, uh, can, can, uh, effectively allow us a small group of people to take control over the network, uh, and if not, take control, can also just sync the network in terms of disincentivizing other people to actually work on it. Um, so regarding, uh, the, uh, distribution of wealth in Gridcoin. So this is a short history. So in the first year, uh, we meant it about 350 million bitcoin. This was when we were, uh, under a proof of work, uh, protocol. And, uh, F I, uh, am was informed. I think we were, we were running a script algorithm. So the same one that's light coin. Uh, and, uh, after that, uh, there was a, there was a fork to move on to proof of work. And, uh, since then we've been minting well, let's see.
  186.  
  187. Speaker 7: 00:59:38 That was what, four years ago or so? Uh, right now this 421 million, so, so basically we've meant at 71 million in, uh, I think four years. Um, eh, whereas in the first year, we admitted a theater, 50 million an hour, somebody can con and obviously the, the rate at which Gridcoin. [inaudible] uh, well actually right now, um, um, the amount of gridcoin being minted is static per year, right? We have a static block reward and we have a static pool of, um, uh, research rewards. So, um, at the current rate, I think Birmington was something like 16 million a year. So it's going to take close to two decades for us to get to the same amount of grid coin that was minted in the first year. Uh, meaning that the people who came in during that first year have enormously disproportionate amount of wealth and power in the network.
  188.  
  189. Speaker 7: 01:00:35 Um, and so I think one of the major, uh, one of the major issues with, uh, this, uh, minting mechanism that the change in the minting mechanism was that, uh, uh, it as I understand it doesn't really have a principle behind it. Um, the, our computations are supposed to represent a certain amount of computations done. Sorry. Our, our, um, grid coins are supposed to represent, are supposed to be related to, to, to computational contributions. Um, and it that to print 350 to 350 million in the first year when almost nobody was participating at all and to only be minting 16 million a year now, uh, when the amount of, uh, uh, uh, computational power other work is, is a much larger than it was. And I, as I think is growing, I think we went down after the crypto peak and now, you know, we're still kind of slow, slow gaining and those although, somebody can correct me on that.
  190.  
  191. Speaker 7: 01:01:35 Um, it doesn't really make a lot of sense. So if you look at Bitcoin, for example, uh, there was a very clear plan, right? We're going to meet 21 million total, we're going to have block rewards be halved every four years. So it started out at 25 and it went out of 25. Uh, I think we're at 12 and a half now. Um, and it's going to continue to increasing by half every 40 years until we get to 21 million total, and then it's done, you know, we're not minting anymore. And, uh, miners will only be rewarded through taxation fees. Uh, maybe some other stuff, but primarily taxation fees. Um, so that was a plan, right? That was, and it was also a contract, right? That, that w a was embedded in, in, in, in, within the network itself, right? People agreed that, okay, this is, this is how the currency is going to be maintained and so on and so forth.
  192.  
  193. Speaker 7: 01:02:26 Um, additionally, a lot of the people that were, uh, around, um, at the beginning of a bitcoin are now, uh, also around now. Um, so, uh, basically, uh, you know, when we talk about the, you know, 350 million gridcoin the ornamented. Uh, you know, I think the s this is a really, uh, destructive to, to the, to the future of our coin. Um, and the reason for that is that, uh, uh, I mean looking at the most basic example, uh, we have something more like 30 million grid coin in our foundation. And the devs have been that our developers have been reluctant to, uh, get received any pay, uh, from, uh, the foundation because they don't want to drain it. Well, this is simply not sustainable. Uh, now, you know, Jim has, uh, written up a, a side staking a protocol where people can send some of their, uh, rewards to the foundation, which is very good.
  194.  
  195. Speaker 7: 01:03:28 Um, but it, you know, it's obviously not universal. It's not, uh, um, you know, it's voluntary and it doesn't, you know, it's not, ultimately, it's not really going to, to, to, to be enough to sustain development. Um, and so, uh, basically, you know, we, this is a hampering the, um, hampering the growth of the network and a lot of ways. So one is hampering development. Um, and, uh, additionally, it's also hampering our marketing efforts as well. Um, because you know, we don't have enough money for marketing. Um, and I think ultimately it also goes against the ethos of, of the coin itself, right? So, uh, our coin is supposed to represent a certain amount of computations done. Um, the idea that has come to take 20, 20 years to mint the same amount of coins that were minted in the first year, uh, is kind of, it doesn't make sense.
  196.  
  197. Speaker 7: 01:04:27 It just, it just, it, it just doesn't make, it, doesn't, it doesn't make sense. Um, and so, you know, uh, I mean, I've, I've thought of some solutions. I mean, they're, they're not perfect. I don't think there's a perfect solution to this problem. But, uh, I think, uh, ultimately, uh, you know, uh, if we don't do anything, I, I, it's hard to imagine this coin actually surviving. We have a very strong community, which is amazing, and that's why we're still here. Um, but if you look at, you know, if the, the price of the coin has obviously precipitously dropped and it was by the way dropping well before, uh, we got the list of from Bittrex, um, and that which shows a lack of confidence, uh, in our coin shows that a lot of people were only investing, uh, uh, for as speculation. Um, you know, and so, uh, I do think we have to have to address this problem, right?
  198.  
  199. Speaker 7: 01:05:18 Because right now we, where each of us are squabbling over, you know, this ridiculous, the small pool of research rewards and staking rewards. And by the way, the staking rewards are, are dominated by people who have the most coins, who again, are people who were here in the beginning. Um, and by the way, I mean, this isn't, it also needs to be made clear. I mean, just kind of a reference referring back to what Goblin was saying, this isn't necessarily anybody's fault. This is kind of just how it played out. This is the hands that we were dealt. Uh, we can't with the, the, um, this is just a thing that we have to deal with them that we have to deal with. Right. Um, and so, uh, you know, uh, that, that that's basically I think where we're at and I think we have to do something, you know, I have again and have solutions. So I think we should discuss them. But I know I'll stop here for now to see, uh, if anybody has anything to say.
  200.  
  201. Speaker 3: 01:06:10 Yeah. Uh, to really support you here. I mean I gave one way to do it in a nontechnical way. One way to solve the problem. Uh, I would love for a technical solution to come about, but do you, the non tactical solution is for these whales to use their grid coin to build grid coin, uh, use their GRC to build grid coin, give it to the foundation so that the Devs are not hesitant to accept to pay. I give it to the foundation so we can do marketing. The fact that, uh, this new website we want to build, we have to ask for GRC from the community is a little off putting like, I don't like having to do that. We should be able to get $2,000 from a foundation that is here to drive to the development of grid coin forward. Uh, they can also use it if they don't want to give it to the foundation.
  202.  
  203. Speaker 3: 01:07:00 They can use it to support people who do good work and to bring more people into the community. There are plenty of ways they can use their grid coin to advance. Do they can use their GRC to advance the grid coin that will increase the value of their remaining holdings plenty of ways. Uh, I would love to see them do it. Uh, yeah, so, so that's just my 2 cents there and that I really agree with what you're saying. To a large extent. There is minor disagreements, but no need to get it out. Does anyone else have any thoughts? Facts? He's got his paws up.
  204.  
  205. Speaker 8: 01:07:35 Um, so you're saying that, uh, the whales, every good idea for the whales who contribute? Uh, though we have not seen very much evidence of that. I think yeah, that might be partly in fact that we don't have the framework to help them. Guess how much would be like a good amount to give to like see the foundation wallet. Uh, what causes are choosing. Right. So, um, that's
  206.  
  207. Speaker 3: 01:08:01 great. They are also smart people though, so they know what work is. worth. Uh, I assume they're smart people because they were here very early in the space and the space is filled with very smart, smart people, particularly back. I don't think that's, I think there could be an avenue built for a resource built to help facilitate donations to projects. That's something I've been trying to sort of build a foundation for over the past couple of years. But again, in order to build that, it requires money. So you, you can't build something that will help distribute money if you don't have money to build the thing with. Right. It's a little bit of a catch 22. So there, there are GRC addresses all over the place. It's pretty, uh, it's pretty straight forward to find out the address of people who contribute regularly, uh, for, to use the example of a donor, a large generation going to Jim. Jim didn't give his address to anyone. I mean they probably found it from a thread in the past that he posted his address on, uh, asking for donations and he never got donations from that post. And then the person donated who after they developed the oracle, which makes sense. It still was not a large thing at all. Go ahead. Nothing. Go ahead.
  208.  
  209. Speaker 5: 01:09:09 Yes, that's the easiest way to find that.
  210.  
  211. Speaker 3: 01:09:11 Ah, nothing came in except for you saying that's the easiest way to find it.
  212.  
  213. Speaker 5: 01:09:15 I said um, it's, it's more likely that they probably just grabbed it from grid coin stats cause that's the easiest way to find it.
  214.  
  215. Speaker 3: 01:09:21 Sure. That's a great resource.
  216.  
  217. Speaker 5: 01:09:23 I did a unrelated, I'm sorry guys, but I'm going to have to drop out on really not feeling so well. See you guys next week.
  218.  
  219. Speaker 3: 01:09:30 Does he mean to better? All right. So we're going to wrap up probably in like 10 minutes here on that note. Are there any more thoughts?
  220.  
  221. Speaker 9: 01:09:37 I'm actually not too concerned about the whales. Um, we just take it as it is part of the network, uh, in terms of [inaudible] developers, as long as prices are going up in the pie is getting bigger and they should get something from right.
  222.  
  223. Speaker 3: 01:09:53 I get the Pie's not getting bigger as [inaudible]. Yeah. The Pie is going to take two years or two decades to hold onto the point that as many coins that have been minted as were minted in the first year. Right. Hold on. Just just as the price times the number of coins, like the entire market. Yeah. The Pie is constantly getting big. Uh, he's saying there's a difference between, we're making a distinction between pricing and, and number of things in distribution.
  224.  
  225. Speaker 7: 01:10:21 Uh, the point, the point still stands. So one, again, the price has been going down in particular because we have a lot of, uh, very interesting, uh, technical developments. But as you know, we're not, uh, we don't, we're not really able to realize the vision. Um, and this has to do with a very large bottleneck in the network, which is, uh, oh, we don't have enough, um, grid coin to distribute amongst people who want to go out and actively do things. Um, the marketing campaign is a really good example of this. Um, uh, if we, you know, w we're very short on resources, but if we had enough, uh, we could very easily do a proper marketing campaign. Uh, but where's that money going to come from? Um, well, if it's not going to come from the community, then it has to come from the foundation.
  226.  
  227. Speaker 7: 01:11:09 But again, uh, and we did the numbers and the numbers are even now than they were when we were looking at it. Um, uh, a proper marketing campaign would rapidly, rapidly, uh, drain the foundation. Um, it w w just almost immediately. Um, and again, uh, the, the, the, the point of the distribution and, uh, foxify mentioned this earlier, um, there are, there are two people with like a over 80 million quid coin unless they did something with it or sold it or you know, even if they did that, that that wouldn't really make it that much better. And ethically, um, they had, you know, there are two people with, you know, like 20% of all the grid coin on the network. Um, all of this work that all of us are doing to actually make the coin into something substantial is going to be the, the rewards are going to be felt disproportionately by people who did not contribute or at least we don't know that they're contributing.
  228.  
  229. Speaker 9: 01:12:04 I think, uh, my point isn't that we should encourage them to do it. I'm not saying that. I guess what I'm saying is that, um, to force them to do it because the problem is we don't know what their reasons are. So they might have their own reasons that might be as valid as ours to keep the coins.
  230.  
  231. Speaker 7: 01:12:23 Right. So, um, my, my mice, mice, you know, my potential solutions do not involve forcing them to do anything. Um, uh, uh, for, so what Jringo was talking about was encouraging them to do it. Um, and in fact, you know, I actually brought this up, this topic up almost to when I, when I started posting here a year ago, um, uh, let's say a in a sort of posting here a year and a half ago, and very soon after that once I actually learned about the distribution mechanism because I didn't really know about it. I think there's a lot of people in Gridcoin who don't actually know this, that this happened. Um, but, uh, when I learned about it, I was like, oh wait, this is kind of a big problem. I mean, it's gonna take 20 years to make the same amount of coins that were minted in the first year. And, and yet the amount of computational power on the network is actually increasing. I mean, that's not very good. That's not, it doesn't just like, doesn't make sense as a protocol. It's just, it's just illogical.
  232.  
  233. Speaker 9: 01:13:19 Go ahead. And Brian, thanks Dan. Right. The price has changed. Home market values different,
  234.  
  235. Speaker 7: 01:13:24 it's plummeted.
  236.  
  237. Speaker 9: 01:13:25 That's many different reasons, right? Like getting delisted from these crazy extremes.
  238.  
  239. Speaker 7: 01:13:31 No, no, no, no. I said, as I pointed out that yeah, they'll do listing that did not do much. We are price dropped precipitously and it's not just because of the, of a drop in price of the bitcoin either a, we draw our PR, our price relative to Bitcoin has been declining and it was declining well before we got removed from, from Bittrex. And frankly, I understand why because it doesn't look like we're going anywhere. I understand it. I can understand why investors would not want to hold gridcoin. It makes sense. Um, uh, you know, I will just, I just want to say sorry, I just wanna I just want to say one thing and that's, uh, I, I do think it's, uh, a little unfair
  240.  
  241. Speaker 4: 01:14:12 to say we're not going anywhere, especially with the amount of development we've had. And I think we've made significant, significant improvements with our development and, and the enhancements and overall stability of the platform. It massively like we're, we're making improvements that no other crypto I've had and realistically I'm not in, again, not in a bad way, but I see, I see other crypto is taking some of our, our things we building out like, like the scrapers and, and like other other little nuances we've, we've, we've added in over the last year. This year has been really amazing with our enhancements. I think the major issue is, um, there's nothing, there's nothing to spend it on so there's no reason to buy it and it's just a buy sell. So chocolate said, looks like we're going nowhere and that's has nothing to do is actually going on, but it looks like we're going nowhere because we can't do marketing initiatives cause you don't have money to do marketing initiatives and marketing initiatives are basically just telling everyone what we're doing. Uh, so that is a key point there. It looks like we're going nowhere to anyone from the outside. He's not wrong about that.
  242.  
  243. Speaker 7: 01:15:11 Yeah, I do want to have, Goblin. I just didn't want to point out. I did. I did couch my. I did say that the, we have had a lot of development going on and it's amazing. I did say that I'm, I'm a fully aware of that and I acknowledge that. Um, but you know, uh, you know, amazing development is only one aspects of what makes a robust, uh, economy and network,
  244.  
  245. Speaker 4: 01:15:35 right? Onyx ads I would say are Dev is not visible enough to drive value 100% correct. It's not visible enough because we can't pay people to create visibility, resources, resources. That increased visibility. It makes very
  246.  
  247. Speaker 7: 01:15:47 a lot of sense. A Lot, a lot. Here's the basics. Here's a basic question I'll pass away. One second. Here's the basic thing. Would we ha it? Suppose we had, you know, a much more grid coin in the, in, in the foundation right now looking much more like, like something we knew we were still, we were safe with. Would there be more development going on right now? 100% yes. There's someone who would build, use the grid coin to build really cool shit. Yeah. 100% yes. I would dedicate even more time. But yes. And then I'm, I'm, I'm not talking about, and I'm talking, that's one just sense of development and, and I, and I'm, I was actually thinking just in terms of coding and I think the answer is still yes. I still, I, I think we could have, you know, multiple full time programmers, uh, for Gridcoin. I think that's totally realistic and the only thing that's stopping us is that we can't pay them. But this is kind of a ridiculous situation because where, um, where printing our own currency, it's kind of crazy that we're saying we as a network don't have the ability to, to, to, to, to pay people, uh, uh, to pay people when we're literally minting our own money. I mean, it's really kind of an absurd situation. Um,
  248.  
  249. Speaker 4: 01:17:00 no, not really. We need a well, Wealthy to donate their some of their funds and we a governence model to regulate it.
  250.  
  251. Speaker 7: 01:17:10 Um, so I'm not sure about the governance model, but again, um, I think the, the time for encouraging the, um, the whales to do something, I think, and I think we're, well, we're well past that because they've had, you know, an abundance of opportunities, um, to do that. And at this point, you know, th the, the time to do it was really like a year plus ago, you know, the, the, they've had in many different areas in, in programming and supporting, you know, uh, you know, like the fireside for example, in supporting marketing efforts. Um, uh, the, the time for actually, uh, encouraging the whales to come continue to contribute in the sense that you're saying has, has passed by I think, I, I think we're well beyond that point. Um, so I'm, you know, in our last, uh, moments, I'm gonna bring up one potential solution to the problem, which is that, so I, I, as I explained them, the main issue was with the original distribution, it was, there was 250 million mint in the first year.
  252.  
  253. Speaker 7: 01:18:12 Since then, we've met at about 71 million. A one potential solution is to, um, uh, uh, determine how much grid coin, what have been minted if we continued on that original trajectory, right, of 350 million a year, and then take that amount and airdrop it on, uh, proportionally on all of our crunchers, right? So we look at their racs and so on and so forth, and we drop up the portion of wheat. Now there are technical difficulties to this, right? So some projects are no longer white listed, for example, and there's also kind of ethical problems as well. Uh, so for example, um, this is gonna hurt people who only invested and didn't crunch. Um, I'm not sure how many of those people there are. Uh, uh, I think I definitely invested more in hardware than I did in, um, than I did in, in, uh, the actual currency, although I invested quite a bit in the courtesy and I lost like a lot like other people here.
  254.  
  255. Speaker 7: 01:19:07 Um, uh, but yeah, so that's one potential solution. One, it would be to go back and basically act as if we had minted. We had just continued the original minting rate. And then airdropped that on to, uh, uh, onto all of our, onto all of our crunchers. So that's one potential solution that I think from a, from an ethical standpoint, well it really remediate a lot of the like injustices of the original distribution. Now again, there might be other solutions and make better solutions, you know, you know, please speak up and, and, and make your suggestions, you know, this is by no means, uh, I have not delved into this topic nearly as much as I have, you know, um, how we mint our coins is, I'm sure probably everyone here knows at this point. Uh, that's my main thing. Um, but, uh, yeah, so if you have any ideas or, or anything or if you disagree, I mean go ahead and say something. Cause I, I do think that this is a conversation we should be having.
  256.  
  257. Speaker 8: 01:20:02 I'd rather give the wealthy the benefit of the doubt, you know, we set out very fair rules. What kind of donations? Uh, we have for what projects, um, you know, just to give them a chance to see if they would comply.
  258.  
  259. Speaker 7: 01:20:17 Um, so there's, there's a couple of issues with that. For one, uh, we don't know who all of these wealthiest people are. Um, [inaudible] might know some of them, but we don't know who all of them are and they can hide. And the other thing is it doesn't really address the kind of original, real, real problem, which, which was switching from in our 350 million a year to like whatever, 15, 16. It was less than because we had an interest rate, you know, 15 or 16 million a year. Right. That was the original problem. And again, we can't really encourage anybody to do anything about that. You know, that, that's incumbent upon us to look at that and say, well, um, uh, is it wasn't, was that right? Was that the right move? Is that hurting us today? Uh, you know, how, how many more grid coin with the foundation have, uh, if we, uh, if it had enough coins to, to, to pay the, not just the developers who are developing now, but any developers who want them to come along.
  260.  
  261. Speaker 7: 01:21:12 Um, a, you know, we, we have so many areas we could be developing as well as the other aspects of the coin as I mentioned, you know, marketing and so on. Um, so, uh, you know, um, uh, while, you know, I guess I, I certainly think that in encouraging the whales to contribute, which is a good idea. This again, is incumbent on the generosity, uh, and morals of the whales were, as opposed to, um, uh, going back to determining how many gridcoin would exist today if we continued to divisional distribution. Actually just games, all of the current and users that are here now, uh, what they should have gotten or, I mean, in my opinion, I think they should have gotten in the first place, which I think makes a lot more sense because we're not really forcing anybody to do anything. We don't need to have like a governance model. Um, we just need to agree as a network that we think is a good idea. Uh, and again, I mean, there could be other suggestions, you know, um, again, I'm, I'm by no means dogmatic on this issue. Uh, you know, happy to hear what everybody has to say. Uh, but I, I don't think that like trying to force, uh, you know, where it's up to new governance model is the best idea.
  262.  
  263. Speaker 9: 01:22:19 Right. Go ahead, turn. Yeah, I agree that the more resource should be put into development and marketing. Uh, I, my, my point is that whales have their own rules and we shouldn't, we should, we should try and encourage them in whatever ways possible. But, you know, we have to keep in mind that, uh, with the price dropping and things like that, the most, uh, uh, the people who have the most loose are the whales, right? That is not correct. I mean, they're, they're losing half the half their values.
  264.  
  265. Speaker 7: 01:22:50 I don't know. They're getting a lot of money from staking. They're not on the or. So just to be clear, they're not just getting a lot of money from staking. So one, their original investment was extraordinarily minimal. A lesson, remember that the price of hold on a time for second, the price of the coin was, was very, very low before that or before, uh, that and even after that original fork from proof of graphs and proof of stake, extraordinarily low. Um, so they're not, they don't really have that much, uh, to lose because they didn't with invest that much to begin with. Um, uh, additionally, uh, I don't see how they, them haven't their own reasons is a good argument. We need to understand their reasons than anything. If, if they do, they need to say them out loud and explain them to us because this is a network. They're not the only ones here, but this is a, this is a network and this is a community.
  266.  
  267. Speaker 4: 01:23:41 I really have to step in and say, I, I very, very strongly disagree with that. Th th the main one of the main points of crypto is the being anonymous and you're effectively saying they have to step forward and give reasons for something for no other reason than they made a smart business decision early on.
  268.  
  269. Speaker 7: 01:24:00 Excellent. I actually know quite on the claim on the contrary what I'm suggesting, what my actual solution, the actual solution I'm suggesting is that, um, we just go back and mint the same amount of coins and then distribute them proportionately to what they should have been in the first place. Um, what the, the, I'm, I only raised the issue of them explaining their reasoning for not for not contributing to the community as a response to Terrence Lee saying that they might have their own reasons. If, if that is indeed the, the, the, the, the reason or the excuse that we're going to accept, then they have to explain that reasoning. Now again, I don't even, I'm not even working within that paradigm. I just think we should go back and fix the problem. The original problem, which again doesn't require any, uh, no forcing, no governance, no nothing. We just go back and mint the same amount that we w that should have been minted in the first place.
  270.  
  271. Speaker 4: 01:24:48 So, and I think we have to wrap up soon because I do have a hard stop coming, but, um, keep in mind, right, that they, they came in early, right? So let's, so let's, let's, let's look out a timeline, right? Let's assume that, you know, we, we, we stay alive for like, you know, 30 years, right? Um, with, you know, nuclear winter or whatever. I'd happen, I who knows, right? But, um, in the grand scheme of things, the amount of time that like over, over the next 30 years, um, the amount of time that GRC's been alive, it's pretty, pretty small, right? If, if you were to say, we have to go back, give everyone who's currently exist and it has a wallet, airdrop it, right? Um, a lot of people will go from having like 1,000 GRC to probably having a decent amount. Like we're, we're talking about dropping thousands on, on individuals, right? And so imagine then like day two more people start showing up, they start saying, well, why didn't I get anything? It's like, oh, well you didn't come early enough. This was, this was to, this was to fix a problem, right?
  272.  
  273. Speaker 7: 01:25:49 It's like, well, you make me a very critical mathematical error, which is that, um, the people would only receive a, if we did this airdrop that I'm suggesting. Right. Yeah. I mean, the way you phrased it, it makes it sound like we're just giving it out randomly or just dropping the [inaudible]. I'm assuming that you want to give it to everyone that exist. Yes. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. My suggestion, again, let's give it proportionately to what people would have gotten if we had been minting the same amount as we had in the beginning. Does that make sense? A little bit, but I still, I still call myself [inaudible] in that I'll spend a bit a bit more clearly. Um, we have a distribution mechanism right now that gives the same amount of gridcoin effectively to every project. Right. Um, and that then those coins are distributed to the bigger proportional to the competitions within those projects.
  274.  
  275. Speaker 7: 01:26:38 Right? So roughly speaking, the more computational power you give to the network, the more gridcoin you receive. Does that make sense? No. Yeah, that makes sense. That's okay. And so what I'm suggesting, hold on. So, so what I'm suggesting is to go back, uh, and f one suggestion, one possible suggestion is to go back, say, ah, let's look at that 350 million and we were minting every, every year, uh, uh, do some extra, you know, some, some trend analysis, blah, blah, blah, and give to people what thing would have received if we were still minting 350 million a year, meaning that the people who contributed more computational power would receive more.
  276.  
  277. Speaker 8: 01:27:17 Right? It's a problem. The problem was that his thing is,
  278.  
  279. Speaker 7: 01:27:24 I just want, I just want to, I just want to finish the point. So, so that's what I'm suggesting. So the mathematical error you on that you were making is that a people who come along later weren't here before. The only people who are getting anything or who were crunching before I, we are not. We are not yet. This is, I'm not suggesting handing this out randomly or airdropping there to everyone. No, no, no, I'm good. I'm suggesting to give them proportional to every miner. And so a new miner who comes along does not have a history of computation in the network. Yeah. That's a problem a fair [inaudible] that makes it so just to be clear. Yeah, yeah. I've fact about you going, I'll, I'll,
  280.  
  281. Speaker 8: 01:28:00 yeah. The one issue I had was those is a fact that people, some people have that multiple CPIDs in the past you would have to account for older accounts and then also the people who have left the network. So how you do that,
  282.  
  283. Speaker 7: 01:28:17 right. So there are that. So those are technical issues. And that's why I said there are, there are problems with my suggestion. I don't, I'm not exactly sure how it would work out. It's quite complicated in howix, as just said in the chat is correct. And we'd also need to adjust the current rewards rate if we want to be consistent. And yes, we would, I mean, precisely, that's the whole point. We would continue meeting, you know, 15 million a year or we would switch to some new protocol. Um, but, uh, I, you know, so that's why, that's why I said that's one possible suggestion, but I think what I'm focusing more on here is the ethics, right? The ethics of it, which is that we should have, we should have a consistent minting mechanism. Okay. If we, if we move entirely to ethics than we're pure gamification, not a crypto to be clear. Right. Because that's, that's like,
  284.  
  285. Speaker 4: 01:29:02 I've, I've reject that statement and that's fine. That's, that's that you don't have to agree to that. That's fine. That's not like, that's based in fact, that's just, that's a [inaudible] I don't think that's basically, no, it's not, it's not, I'm saying it's not, oh, I thought you said it was, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm saying that, that's my general opinion on that. And I want to give it to, to, uh, I can never get his name. I'm so sorry. I don't have them but, but the point I wanted to make though is is what I was saying earlier is is is it is still in line with what I was saying earlier, dealing with your description because what I'm saying is after you give all those people with history, after you give out and say, okay, everyone who's been here for like the last three years, here you go, here's all your stuff right here.
  286.  
  287. Speaker 4: 01:29:41 You're, you're done. Right? Like, uh, like we all, we all got this, um, day two. But you know, let's say let's say the day after you distribute all that with all the history and everything, someone shows up and they go, hey, how do I get more crypto? How do I get to GRC to start staking in answers? Oh, it's like, what are you talking about dude? Like the, you know, everyone, everyone got rain, right? Everyone got like two, 4,000, right between like anywhere between like couple hundred to like 10,000, whatever. And it's like, oh, I wasn't here.
  288.  
  289. Speaker 7: 01:30:07 I don't have a [inaudible] saying that this is still a mathematical error. Hello. Let me just explain. Suppose that the [inaudible] during the one second, wasn't it? Suppose that person had come the day before the rain, right the day before? No. Yeah. They wouldn't have gotten almost anything. Exactly. That's the point. That's, so that doesn't make any sense.
  290.  
  291. Speaker 4: 01:30:24 So we're still, but we're still make my point there. Right. And it's an extreme, but my point is that we're still, we're still rewarding people for coming super, super early and it's not, it's not, yeah,
  292.  
  293. Speaker 7: 01:30:36 no way for all of us. But that's stupid. I agree with that. That's the whole point. I think you guys were misunderstanding I think. No, no, no. I understand that it shouldn't be, I think it makes sense to reward early adopters, even early investors. I'm not opposed to that. What I'm saying is the way it's happened has been extremely destructive to, to the network and maybe not destructive, I should say it's inhibited a lot of growth. That's my claim.
  294.  
  295. Speaker 3: 01:30:58 Yeah. I'm going to wrap it up in their common area because that is a true comment. The way that the grid coin was distributed has held the community back for a long time. And there have been plenty of opportunities for the solution to be fixed in a way that other communities have through the way the other communities have fixed this problem. I said that wrong. You know what I mean? So the way you fix this problem is you, the early adopters are supposed to build stuff with their early holdings. That is the way you create a network effect. And when that's not done, at some point you have this discussion that we're having right now and then afterwards, more things happen. This has repercussions. So that needs to be understood. So I kind of like Foxify's idea of where whales need to know that this discussion is being had.
  296.  
  297. Speaker 3: 01:31:47 Uh, it's reached that point. So they really have a choice to make it as point. Uh, they have to share, they have to improve the network, they have to build things, uh, or there's going to have to be done. That is different. Uh, we've changed the way that economics go moving forward. We have made it so the researchers do get rewarded more than they do then than stakers. So we fixed that economic part, but we haven't fixed the past and the past needs to get fixed because we do. The main point I think that chocolate has made that is most critical is that we don't have enough funds to build things that we need to build to, to make, uh, the awesome development that has been going on for the past couple of years even better. And then we definitely do not have the funds required to make those developments and known to people outside of our community.
  298.  
  299. Speaker 3: 01:32:41 We don't have marketing funds. And if we had development funds, we would have more developers. We would be able to pay our developers without them feeling bad because they're draining the foundation because they put in a lot of work in this project, hours upon hours upon hours. And they know if they requested funds for every hour they put in, they would drain the foundation really quick. So the whales need to know that the early adopters need to know that. And I also agree with Chocolate when he's, say no one thinks that early adopters should not be rewarded more than anything else. He's also correct when he says the initial investment that these people put in was less than a lot of people put in and now, have less. You can argue about, uh, the, the business sense, but at the same time, this was from 2013 when you didn't need to have a business sense, you just needed to be a cypherpunk or in this type of interest in this type of thing and just put $10 in anywhere.
  300.  
  301. Speaker 3: 01:33:36 Uh, if your coin survived, you did alright. So things are changing. And so I think that is the main way to fix this, which you still have the people with the largest stake in the network technically, which is the most number of coins, build things or help build things or fun things to get built. There are ways they can do that. I like to assume they're smart people and can figure out how to do it if they don't already know. Uh, but it needs to get done. Uh, and if not, then we, I think we do need to explore technical solutions. Like what chocolate's talking about. I don't know if I agree or disagree with what you said so far. Uh, because he's, like he said, it hasn't been explored fully. I think there are other potential technical solutions as well, whose Terrance leaving your mic on for like a minute. And I want to try and say, alright, you're going to be the last hole
  302.  
  303. Speaker 10: 01:34:23 question. Yeah. I just want to post a quick question. Uh, the question is, so we want to encourage the whales, right? And I think everybody agrees that we would like to encourage them to spend the money. Is it possible? The question is, is it possible the Wales aren't putting in the money into the different developments and marketing efforts because they see that there's still a lot of money left in the foundation. So because there's still money left in the foundation, the whales, I thinking, well, you know, there's still money left that's just spent that first. Right? So they're not willing to come in at this point because of that. That's the question.
  304.  
  305. Speaker 7: 01:35:01 So, uh, I have a few responses to that. One. Uh, one. Um, uh, so I have a few responses to that. So, uh, one is that, um, they have it, um, they, I'm, I'm assuming that the, it's only fair to say or fair to assume that the whales are watching. Uh, and, and, and, and they're, you should be reading at least some of the conversations. Well, I mean, we know that they're watching because they vote in the polls. Um, and so I think they n they must, if they don't have an understanding that you can, they don't really have much of an interest in much of an investment in Gridcoin, but if they don't understand these things, um, and, uh, and so, um, if they have been looking at the network so far and they still think, uh, what you just said, um, uh, I think that we're making them, uh, I think they're obviously just not frankly.
  306.  
  307. Speaker 7: 01:35:52 I mean, I, I hate to be so blunt, but I don't think that they're very compentent, because I think it's overwhelmingly obvious at this point at, um, that, that, that level of Grit, good coin needs to be put into the network. I mean, again, one person has almost doubled the amount of good coin that's in the foundation. One person, uh, end up by that person could control other wallets for all we know. Um, and so, I mean, that's quite a, you know, so that's one main thing. And then the other main thing is that, uh, your, uh, this again goes back to the, you know, hidden or misunderstood or non non understood motives of um, these whales. And I'm arguing that their motives are irrelevant to their impact on the network. And that at least the suggestion that I put forth, again, it's a, it's, it's, it doesn't, it's not like directed directly at the whales.
  308.  
  309. Speaker 7: 01:36:43 It's just trying to, uh, undo the damage done by the original distribution. And by the way, um, if you're advocating for something that's not like what I'm saying, um, you have to justify that original distribution. Like you have to explain why, why that was a correct thing to do and why. The, the mint, uh, the, the, uh, rate, uh, of minting specifically was a good idea. Right. Um, so that's a very tall order. Um, and that, that would be my main counter argument. Like why do you think it was a good idea to mint 50 million and then started minting 15 million after another that sounded like, sorry, just to be clear, I wasn't one by the way, attacking how long [inaudible] I wasn't like directing that [inaudible] That's okay. That's okay. That's like a general, those kinds of like a, like a general thing. Like you have to advance and support that particular, uh,
  310.  
  311. Speaker 3: 01:37:33 oh, okay. I'm cutting you off cause we have to stop here. Um, so yeah, so I think those are the answers to your question. Uh, tangibly, I also don't think, I don't know why they would think that, uh, because it's very clear that people are hesitant to take out of the foundation cause we have so few funds in the foundation. So if they're waiting for it to drain, that's incredibly risky play. It's depending on them driving community to do very risky things, which is spend all their funds on the based on the faith that a whale will refill the foundation wallet, uh, that would build a bad community in my opinion. Uh, so, uh, damage is coming and we're trying to wrap up, but go ahead cause you haven't been here and I would love to hear your thoughts. Yeah. Yeah. I mean that would be pretty cool but uh, eh, that would bring us into a treasury system where we can talk about that more.
  312.  
  313. Speaker 3: 01:38:22 Tertiary systems are a way to do this. But again, W building the technical solution would distract us. Building the technical solution to deal with wealth inequality in district. The original distribution of great coin would distract us from difficulty in the protocol itself. The whales have an opportunity to fix this problem without us spending time fixing it for them. All they need to do with support building things with the massive amounts of GRC they have. All they need to do with send a huge amount of GRC to the foundation wallet so that people aren't scared to go out and ever request funds from it to go do really cool thing as that's all it would take. And then we won't get distracted. We can continue to build really cool stuff, et Cetera, et cetera. So we will wrap up here then, uh, if this is an ongoing discussion of, like I said at the beginning, people and we're talking about it for a long time and I will end on a positive note about what whales do.
  314.  
  315. Speaker 3: 01:39:15 I mentioned the a little bit earlier in the middle of the show where they, they carried us through the hard fork, the forking issues, but at the same time, if GRC was distributed, we wouldn't need a single person to no, no, no. They really carry us through that. They did a lot of work there. Uh, they did keep the coin alive, but during the first crypto winter, uh, so credit to them for that as well. But it has reached the point where they need to build, actively build like other communities have done. Uh, and to also zoom out one more time right before the end here. This is an issue that plagues many, many, many, many communities at bitcoin and ethereum included. And there are coins in a much worse situation than we are in. Um, ironically the ones that are not in that bad of a situation are ones that had a centralized distribution mechanism because the coins were held by very business minded people and they used them to build things directly. Uh, if we want to look at grid coin as essentially a one year bootstrap area era, which is what it was, it was one year proof of work bootstrap era. That means those people are the ones who are meant to build stuff in the future and frankly they haven't. So it'd be interesting to see if they do now. But yeah, continue to
  316.  
  317. Speaker 2: 01:40:23 thinking about solutions. Continue building cool stuff. We'll be back next week. No project brief next week. This was a two hour episode. Whoa. Geez. Uh, and uh, okay. See a gallon peace. Where do we go? I'll end on this note. Jim Says, love the ideas [Loud Music].
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