Nixon Kleindienst Evidence Destruction April 26 1973

Audio files of this conversation can be found at nixonlibrary.gov:
http://www.nixonlibrary.gov/forresearchers/find/tapes/tape045/045-027a.mp3
http://www.nixonlibrary.gov/forresearchers/find/tapes/tape045/045-027b.mp3

Clip of audio accompanied by transcript is on youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh-Grj0XyC4

Transcript and introduction by uploader.

APRIL 26, 1973: NIXON AND KLEINDIENST, 7:44-8:02 P.M., CAMP DAVID TELEPHONE

One of the more unusual phone calls of which we possess a record: here, an American President (Richard Nixon) speaks to his Attorney General (Richard Kleindienst) about an incident where his counsel brought evidence to the acting head of the FBI (Patrick Gray), after which the acting head of the FBI destroyed it. This phone call is a moment too melodramatic for Dostoyevsky, where Nixon tries to persuade his head of justice to keep this moment of evidence destruction out of the public eye, and out of the grand jury. The material destroyed might well be a tangent in a pot boiler plot: forged cables created by E. Howard Hunt, former CIA man and Watergate burglar, of an order by John F. Kennedy for Vietnamese generals to assassinate South Vietnam's President Ngo Dinh Diem. Nixon fails to persuade Kleindienst, and it's uncertain whether Kleindienst believes much of what Nixon tells him of John Dean, alleging again and again that Dean is a liar. Kleindienst has plenty of venom for Dean, but his repeated "Isn't that interesting?", suggest a man very skeptical of this president, as Nixon stresses again and again that he didn't see Dean before February 1973. It would later be revealed that they had one very substantial and lengthy meeting on September 15, 1972, in which they spoke in-depth of Watergate and the cover-up in progress. A full recording of that meeting exists, as does this one, a result of the taping system which would vindicate Dean over his adversary, the president.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Hello?

KLEINDIENST: Mr. President?

PRESIDENT NIXON: Hello Dick, how are are you?

KLEINDIENST: Good. Me and Henry are down at my office with Pat Gray. Let me give you his version of it, before we discuss the ramifications of it. I'll describe his attitude. Several days after the apprehension of the Watergate buggers, he was asked to come over and met in John Ehrlichman's office. And there was Dean. A good part of the conversation was John Dean, Ehrlichman saying nothing, John Dean says, "Pat, here's some highly sensitive, very secret files, that were in the possession of Howard Hunt, that had nothing to do with the Watergate case. They are of a very, very secret, sensitive nature. He did not describe their contents. They should not be put in the FBI files, and they should never see the light of day. Here, you take them." That's the substance of it. Pat took the documents from John Dean, who stayed there with John Ehrlichman, who said nothing about the documents, and they were talking about apprehension and concern that you had about leaks with the FBI. Pat then left that office, went home, had a few trips to make, left home, came back on a Sunday night - this occurred on a Thursday or a Friday - they came back on a Sunday night, he then took the documents down to his office, without looking at them, tore them into bits, put them in his burn basket, and they were destroyed. That's Pat's view. Now, I said, "Pat-"

PRESIDENT NIXON: But he is not going to say...that he was ordered to destroy them?

KLEINDIENST: No. On cross-examination, as a result of what Dean said, he said "I had to gather...given that Dean is working for the President of the United States, I had to just infer from his remarks..." that since they weren't to see the light of day, they were of such highly sensitive nature, they were not to be put in the FBI files, he just concluded himself that he ought to destroy them. That's quite a bit different, you know, from getting a specific direction. But I think if you know Pat as I do, if you press him to the wall, and Pat would say, the only fair inference I could gain from my conversation with John Dean with Ehrlichman present was, they had to be destroyed. He would not say-

PRESIDENT NIXON: It was Dean that told him this?

KLEINDIENST: Yeah, yeah. But he would not say that he was specifically ordered to destroy them. So now we're talking this way. Pat, if you testify before a grand jury, we all have to assume that that's all going to hit the streets, we have a monumental leak there, we're in no position to throw lawyers in jail...because of the atmosphere. So, suppose this very statement that you gave us, that you made public tomorrow? You just got the president, and said, this is what happened. What would that do with respect to your ability to manage the difficult beer of an investigation? He said it would be a disaster. So I said, "Pat, that's where we are." Logically. If it should come out, and indeed it is, because of all the leaks that we have, isn't that where we are? He feels for him to resign, is an admission of guilt of some kind, right? And I said, Pat, as far as I can tell, you haven't done anything criminally wrong. Just in light of all the facts and circumstances of the Watergate case-

PRESIDENT NIXON: -his ability to conduct the office-

KLEINDIENST: -it's just an impossible situation for you to manage that hill. And that is where we wound up before I called you. Because I told him that I wanted to-

PRESIDENT NIXON: I understandI understandI understand-

KLEINDIENST: -he's in the other room with Henry [Petersen], to report to you what he said, and the context of it. Pat Gray, as you know, is a soldier, he's not going to do a Goddamn thing. Henry and I-

PRESIDENT NIXON: You and Henry feel nothing should be done tomorrow, then?

KLEINDIENST: No, in truth, sir, Henry and I feel that we have to get across to Pat without (unintelligible) him, he's gotta resign.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Hmmmm.

KLEINDIENST: How do you want us to proceed tonight?

PRESIDENT NIXON: But how would we do it? He should say nothing tonight.

KLEINDIENST: Oh, I'm not talking about tonight, I'm trying to make a decision.

PRESIDENT NIXON: In terms of the resignation, and uh and uh, I know he's raising the problem of, what about Ehrlichman, and his case, and uh, what about Dean, and I said...they're going to have to get Dean, you know what I mean? Dean's lawyers are still saying, we want immunity and all that sort of thing...would you give him immunity?

KLEINDIENST: Dean? Hell yes.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Dean?

KLEINDIENST: Sure.

PRESIDENT NIXON: But you won't, will you?

KLEINDIENST: (laughs) I don't want to give him immunity.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Right.

KLEINDIENST: I don't think anyone plans on giving him immunity.

PRESIDENT NIXON: That's right. But is anybody advising it?

KLEINDIENST: No.

PRESIDENT NIXON: My point- Well then, all you can talk to Dean about is not immunity, all you can about, we can give you the fairest treatment we can. That right? No way you can give him immunity in the subornation of perjury, is there?

KLEINDIENST: No sir. I don't even want to talk to that little bastard about giving him the fairest treatment we can.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Right.

KLEINDIENST: He's put himself in the position in opposition to you, the government of the United States, and everyone he's associated with.

PRESIDENT NIXON: That's right, that's right.

KLEINDIENST: Dean is going to find himself in a very very small corner, Mr. President.

PRESIDENT NIXON: And that's the point. And also, he's going to be...as I told you, you strike a king... [you better not miss]

KLEINDIENST: That's right.

PRESIDENT NIXON: On Pat [Patrick Gray], what's your advice? What do you and Henry think?

KLEINDIENST: Well-

PRESIDENT NIXON: You- I'll take care of my problems, let me tell you, you can tell Petersen, he, I, uh, I've got my own, I can handle my own way, you know. I'm not gonna draw all this, this is a little bit different version than Petersen told me. Petersen told me that Ehrlichman had ordered...that Gray was going to say that Ehrlichman had ordered him to destroy the documents. Now, that turns out to be untrue, doesn't it?

KLEINDIENST: That's correct.

PRESIDENT NIXON: You see, I want the damn truth. I know Petersen hates Ehrlichman, and that's alright, too. But I don't want Petersen to mislead me like that.

KLEINDIENST: Petersen doesn't hate Ehrlichman...let me give you an event that occurred last summer, Mr. President. In August, when I was out here on my vacation. On a particular Sunday, when I was out of the city, John Ehrlichman called up Petersen, and in a very very intemperate way, you know, gave him instructions with respect to what he oughta do in this Goddamn matter...if Henry Petersen hadn't been the mature kind of fellow that he was-

PRESIDENT NIXON: Instructions in what way? Not to cover up or anything?

KLEINDIENST: Nono...no, but just in the whole manner in which we were investigating this thing, and everything else.

PRESIDENT NIXON: I see, I see. I get it.

KLEINDIENST: It really rubbed Henry the wrong way.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Well, I understand, I don't- I like Petersen myself, you know what I mean? You trust him now, don't you?

KLEINDIENST: Who Henry?

PRESIDENT NIXON: Yes.

KLEINDIENST: Mr. President, if I learned tomorrow that Henry Petersen has been duplicitous in this, I don't know what the hell I'd do.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Some say not, but I understand. I'm talking to him as he is my counsel now, and I want you to know-

KLEINDIENST: Mr. President, you trust me, don't you?

PRESIDENT NIXON: Of course.

KLEINDIENST: I trust Henry Petersen.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Well, my point is, and then I'll come back to the judgement, what do you and Petersen think Gray oughta do?

KLEINDIENST: Me and Petersen are in the process of telling Pat that he's gotta resign.

PRESIDENT NIXON: That he should do it on the basis that...he is totally- but this is another of the- in lieu of the- he thinks his ability to, in lieu of the charge that has been made, that this should say exactly what happened here. That he has delivered these documents, that he was told they were not, in any way, related to the Watergate case...what did they say, politically sensitive?

KLEINDIENST: Highly sensitive for national security reasons. That they should not see the light of day, nor should they be put in the FBI files. On that basis, he took them. Two incredible aspects to this, Mr. President.

PRESIDENT NIXON: He didn't open it?

KLEINDIENST: Number one, he didn't say, well why in the fuck are you giving them to me, why don't you destroy them yourself?

PRESIDENT NIXON: That's right, well, if he's- that's why his destruction line won't work, you see.

KLEINDIENST: And then, not knowing what was in them, and not being specifically ordered to destroy them, he destroyed them.

PRESIDENT NIXON: And why didn't he look into them? See what they were.

KLEINDIENST: And why didn't he look at them. He says, well, I gathered, from a clear import of Mr. Dean's remarks, that they were being given to me for the purpose of being destroyed.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Oh boy. No-

KLEINDIENST: That was the conclusion he arrived at.

PRESIDENT NIXON: He must- Let me say...Pat must not say that publicly.

KLEINDIENST: He can say it to a grand jury.

PRESIDENT NIXON: If he says that, that's a conclusion. That's public. My point is, if he says, White House counsel...well, of course, Dean is....ordered him to destroy...

KLEINDIENST: He will not say that sir.

PRESIDENT NIXON: That he drew that conclusion.

KLEINDIENST: Yeah.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Alright, but you understand. That makes him look like a Goddamn-

KLEINDIENST: Like a Goddamn fool.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Not only looks like a fool, but looks like the two of them together were conspiring to destroy evidence.

KLEINDIENST: That's right.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Well, he can't do it. He's got to put it- got to put it-

KLEINDIENST: -gone over it with him ten times already-

PRESIDENT NIXON: -he's got to put it in terms-

KLEINDIENST: -he won't do it. He'll say this: I was not specifically ordered to destroy them. John Dean says, "Pat, here's some documents, they're the most sensitive documents, having nothing to do with the Watergate case, they pertain to national security matters, they should never see the light of day, and they should not be in the FBI file."

PRESIDENT NIXON: Alright. Okay.

KLEINDIENST: He takes them, goes back and destroys them. Because he concludes from the remarks, the intent, by John Dean, was to destroy them.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Well, he should not impute that to Dean or anybody else, and not to Ehrlichman. I've got to give- Ehrlichman didn't say it, Ehrlichman was there, however.

KLEINDIENST: The only reason why you can to impute to Ehrlichman is, by his silence, Ehrlichman confirmed what Dean said. But Gray is a...(laughs)

PRESIDENT NIXON: Wonderful, loyal fellow, and just sometimes-

KLEINDIENST: Also, very rigid.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Rigid as he can be, and-

KLEINDIENST: Sometimes naive.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Let me say one thing, I mean, he's interested in the presidency, isn't he?

KLEINDIENST: Yes he is.

PRESIDENT NIXON: On the presidency, I must say, on this point, the worst thing he could say would be to...have them out of here, I was ordered to destroy these documents, or-

KLEINDIENST: He won't-

PRESIDENT NIXON: -even I gathered the impression, Mr. Dean wanted them destroyed. That's practically the same thing.

KLEINDIENST: I think he'd say that, Mr. President.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Huh?

KLEINDIENST: I think he's gonna say that.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Do your best on that, though. You see my point?

KLEINDIENST: Sure, I see it.

PRESIDENT NIXON: You tell him, Pat, that just doesn't add up. It's going to make it sound like hell.

KLEINDIENST: I've gone over it with him about ten times.

PRESIDENT NIXON: And that's what he's- That's what he's going to say tomorrow, or nothing.

KLEINDIENST: Well, he'll say nothing tomorrow if we tell him not to, when he goes to the grand jury.

PRESIDENT NIXON: What would you do tomorrow? Resign, because of this charge?

KLEINDIENST: He doesn't want to resign. He himself thinks, if he resigned, as a result of what's going to be in the newspaper, that would be a confession of guilt on his part, and that just-

PRESIDENT NIXON: Well, under the circumstances, you haven't seen the...let's just put it this way, let's just put it this way. This matter is to be heard...

KLEINDIENST: He'll appear before the grand jury.

PRESIDENT NIXON: You think a grand jury would indict him for this?

KLEINDIENST: No sir.

PRESIDENT NIXON: You don't think so?

KLEINDIENST: Henry and I do not believe...let me just check that. Just one second. May I-

PRESIDENT NIXON: Yeah.

KLEINDIENST: Thank you sir.

PRESIDENT NIXON: (pause)

KLEINDIENST: Mr. President, Henry and I feel, you know, what he would say, wouldn't be grounds for an indictment. He hasn't committed any crime, or violated any law.

PRESIDENT NIXON: You mean, isn't it, is it part of the- well, what about the conspiracy to cover up-

KLEINDIENST: Nono, I don't think that would, no.

PRESIDENT NIXON: He's not intending to cover it up, because they said it had nothing to do with that. It's just bad judgement.

KLEINDIENST: That's right.

PRESIDENT NIXON: I frankly think myself, I'm not of the view, that just based on the newspaper story, then, tomorrow, I'll reconsider, I'm not of the view, as of tomorrow, Pat Gray up and resigns. I think, quite frankly, we oughta treat him like we're treating the others. Goddamnit, the grand jury, let's see what the grand jury does. But in the end, Pat's going to be out anyway, shortly, you know what I mean? I may move on this a little sooner, as a result of this. Fair enough?

KLEINDIENST: Hmmmhmmm.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Alright, but tell him that-

KLEINDIENST: Just hold tonight.

PRESIDENT NIXON: And tomorrow. Don't do a damn thing as a result of a newspaper story.

KLEINDIENST: Right sir.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Tell Petersen that. Nothing on the basis of a news story. Tell Petersen when you're talking to him that I appreciate his hard work in this thing, and he's his best counsel, but I do feel, now, that for all...Dean floated this story, you know? That's where it came from.

KLEINDIENST: I know.

PRESIDENT NIXON: The New York Times reported it, directly-

KLEINDIENST: Mr. President, as I piece this whole thing together, and try to have objectivity in it, my experience with human beings and as a lawyer, one of the reasons I particularly don't want to give immunity to John Dean, is, that I think out of desperation, and hysteria, panic, and fear, this poor young man is going to put himself in a corner. Where he's going to be at odds with everybody, and he might go down very, very badly, but it might also, tend to kindof resurrect and rehabilitate other people. You understand what I'm trying to say?

PRESIDENT NIXON: In other words, he's going to look like the bastard?

KLEINDIENST: Yes.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Well, that's the way this thing better come out. Because it's the truth.

KLEINDIENST: That's the way he's appeared to everybody.

PRESIDENT NIXON: It's the truth.

KLEINDIENST: Mitchell, you, Pat Gray, Henry Petersen, me.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Well, what about...he's never taken you on, has he?

KLEINDIENST: Well, I dealt with him all last summer on the assumption that a) he didn't know anything about it, he was discussing the general course of the investigation on your behalf-

PRESIDENT NIXON: Right.

KLEINDIENST: He had the same kind of conversations with Pat Gray, Henry Petersen, you know. With everybody. Even with yourself.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Now, he's trying to pin everybody else with it. He says that-

KLEINDIENST: Oh, he was just the innocent little pawn and victim, you know.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Hot dog, you know, I just stopped to think of it, even though I didn't put it- I never saw him personally till, never saw him about this, and then it was because of the Gray confirmation thing, until February 22.

KLEINDIENST: Is that right?

PRESIDENT NIXON: Never.

KLEINDIENST: You never discussed this matter with him-

PRESIDENT NIXON: Never.

KLEINDIENST: Until February 22?

PRESIDENT NIXON: That's right.

KLEINDIENST: That is a very-

PRESIDENT NIXON: Wait a minute. Let me just check my book here. Twenty seventh.

KLEINDIENST: Of February?

PRESIDENT NIXON: Twenty seventh of February. That's right.

KLEINDIENST: In or out of your office?

PRESIDENT NIXON: Never. Except one time, to sign my wills.

KLEINDIENST: Is that right?

PRESIDENT NIXON: That's right. Look, that's the way we work here, you know. I mean, I put a man in charge-

KLEINDIENST: You know, to listen to this little bastard he's talking to you four times a day.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Oh, he has been since then. He was-

KLEINDIENST: No, but even last summer.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Last summer? I never- Well, you, let's just get one thing straight. I, the president, never saw John Dean once, except for the signing of the wills.

KLEINDIENST: Until February 27.

PRESIDENT NIXON: And that was on August the 14th. August the 14, signing of my wills, that's the only time I ever saw him.

KLEINDIENST: Isn't that interesting?

PRESIDENT NIXON: But everything that was put out by Ziegler, and he's not to blame, based on what Dean told him. There was no Dean written report.

KLEINDIENST: Isn't that interesting?

PRESIDENT NIXON: But my God, Dean orally was just...why do you think, why in the world do you think Ziegler would get out and say, "No one in the White House was involved," because Dean told him-

KLEINDIENST: That's right.

PRESIDENT NIXON: (Unintelligible)

KLEINDIENST: I understand all that, but I think the significant fact is that, Dean hadn't seen you-

PRESIDENT NIXON: Why, did he give you the impression he did see me?

KLEINDIENST: Oh Christ, he gave everybody that impression.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Yeah. Alright. Well anyway, I do think-

KLEINDIENST: As of tonight and tomorrow, Pat Gray will stay director of the FBI.

PRESIDENT NIXON: I think he's going to stay there till, let's get, uh, I'll try to find a successor in a reasonable time, but you know what I mean? He knows that. But he shouldn't just resign over this.

KLEINDIENST: No.

PRESIDENT NIXON: I agree. It's a story.

KLEINDIENST: Okay sir.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Fine. I don't think you should put out a story about his version of it.

KLEINDIENST: Nono, he'll just go to the grand jury.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Yeah. He'll say...let me see...

KLEINDIENST: He'll tell the facts to the grand jury.

PRESIDENT NIXON: No, he says, this is a newspaper, I'm not going to comment on a newspaper story, I'm gonna be glad to testify before the grand jury.

KLEINDIENST: Yes sir.

PRESIDENT NIXON: That's what he should do.

KLEINDIENST: Got it.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Fine.

KLEINDIENST: Okay sir.