[10:26 PM]  tazz: Down for arena trap ban
[10:26 PM]  tazz: suspect
[10:55 PM]  Luthier: ^
[11:11 PM]  Quote: honestly? me too
[11:11 PM]  Quote: I really really wish we could get a fucking date for home
[11:15 PM]  Shrug: People know and don’t like my opinions on this topic
[11:18 PM]  Quote: yea but we respect them anyway
[11:19 PM]  Quote: actually I don't know if I'm down for an arena trap ban, but a suspect? totally
[11:19 PM]  coco: I wouldn't vote ban on arena trap
[11:19 PM]  coco: not at the current moment
[11:19 PM]  Quote: I really need to see how the meta looks post-home tho
[11:19 PM]  coco: I can be convinced otherwise
[11:59 PM]  BurntZebra: even though it seems like diglett has more usage than trapinch in spl
[11:59 PM]  BurntZebra: trapinch still seems more banworthy to me
[12:00 AM]  BurntZebra: diglett always falls into this position of it trying to maintain balance to the tier by revenging 17-19 speed stuff
[12:01 AM]  BurntZebra: i guess even in gen 7, diglett sort of served as a bandaid to some of the bigger problems of the tier
[5:30 AM]  madoka: trapinch is to me
[5:30 AM]  madoka: the more clearly broken of the two
[5:30 AM]  madoka: we all know how well it pairs w vull
[5:30 AM]  madoka: that's not rly a question
[5:31 AM]  madoka: but it also provides super broken support to qt/floon
[5:31 AM]  madoka: a bunch of ferro's have been running 11 spe lately to avoid getting murked by pinch
[5:31 AM]  madoka: but w webs up from qt it still gets trapped
[5:32 AM]  madoka: trapinch also traps onix/pawn super easily for floon
[5:32 AM]  madoka: and if you're running wisp floon and laser focus pinch
[5:32 AM]  madoka: you can trap dedge variants of munch
[5:33 AM]  madoka: this one isn't a super big point because i dont think it's been explored really all that much but
[5:34 AM]  madoka: it's super lame when paired with wynaut too
[5:34 AM]  madoka: the two of them combined can trap ferro/munch/mar with really zero counterplay
[5:34 AM]  madoka: timburr too
[5:34 AM]  madoka: ur dedicating two slots to it so idk if that's necessarily broken but
[5:35 AM]  madoka: it just exacerbates MU fishing to a super dumb extent
[5:35 AM]  madoka: so i thought it would be worth mentioning
[5:36 AM]  madoka: does anyone think that pinch is fine for the meta
[8:18 AM]  Corporal Levi: i dont have a real concern w arena trap susp beyond timing
[8:19 AM]  Corporal Levi: i'd probably vote dnb bc i dont think it's outright too good and idt it'd fix the meta much
[8:48 AM]  tazz: what would you vote ban on
[8:49 AM]  tazz: i think we should suspect and ban both, i flatly dont think we have the variety of mons that would make them ok
[8:50 AM]  tazz: Their ability to force the same poison types and replicate the same teambuilds is part of whats making the current meta so embarassingly bad
[8:50 AM]  tazz: id also like to ban cutie and vullaby
[8:52 AM]  lily: i think banning vull is like a super bad take
[8:52 AM]  BurntZebra: its hard to say for me if cutie/vull are banworthy w/o trappers
[8:52 AM]  BurntZebra: banning vull in ss but not sm makes no sense
[8:52 AM]  lily: vull is only ever overbearing because of trappers
[8:53 AM]  lily: so if anything just ban the trappers
[8:53 AM]  BurntZebra: pinch removes skillful counterplay to an unhealthy extent
[8:53 AM]  BurntZebra: so id say i would vote ban on it in a suspect
[9:03 AM]  fatty: I’d vote ban on arena trap and ye I rly don’t think vull is broken
[9:03 AM]  Corporal Levi: i think arena trap should be our first suspect for sure
[9:03 AM]  Corporal Levi: since it's individually potentially problematic and also benefits cutie/vulp/vull a lot
[9:31 AM]  madoka: i'm not too sure how broken vully woul dbe without trapping in the tier
[9:31 AM]  madoka: same w qt
[9:31 AM]  madoka: but
[9:31 AM]  madoka: instead of just suspecting arena trap as a whole
[9:31 AM]  madoka: maybe we could separate it into two separate bans that ppl vote on within 1 suspect
[9:31 AM]  madoka: diglett & trapinch
[9:31 AM]  madoka: trapinch will likely remain unchanged even after
[9:32 AM]  madoka: the meta shift
[9:32 AM]  madoka: in terms of it being broken
[9:32 AM]  Corporal Levi: they shouldn't be suspected as separate mons in the same suspect i think
[9:32 AM]  madoka: with pix going once home hits
[9:32 AM]  Corporal Levi: since they influence the other's viability
[9:32 AM]  madoka: diglett may be less broken
[9:32 AM]  madoka: in that hypothetical meta
[9:32 AM]  Corporal Levi: i think the issue is with arena trap though even if diglett's less reliable
[9:32 AM]  Corporal Levi: so i'd prefer the abiloity
[9:32 AM]  madoka: huh
[9:33 AM]  madoka: can u speak english please
[9:33 AM]  madoka: i have no clue what you just said
[9:33 AM]  madoka: at all
[9:33 AM]  madoka: also wrt your first point
[9:34 AM]  madoka: we could just do a pinch suspect first then
[9:34 AM]  Corporal Levi: ability*
[9:34 AM]  madoka: that wasn't
[9:34 AM]  madoka: what i was talking about
[9:34 AM]  madoka: "i think the issue is with arena trap though even if diglett's less reliable"
[9:34 AM]  madoka: this makes zero grammatical sense
[9:34 AM]  Corporal Levi: like i think arena trap is what's problematic
[9:35 AM]  Corporal Levi: you can abuse it w voltturners or eject to get them in on something defensive, which is then guaranteed to be removed
[9:35 AM]  madoka: oh
[9:35 AM]  madoka: nvm i was reading it as
[9:35 AM]  madoka: i think the issue with arena trap, though, even if diglett's less reliable
[9:35 AM]  madoka: rather than
[9:35 AM]  Corporal Levi: isn't that still grammatically fine
[9:35 AM]  Corporal Levi: oh you missd the is
[9:35 AM]  madoka: ya
[9:35 AM]  madoka: im just blind
[9:35 AM]  madoka: SRY
[9:36 AM]  madoka: also trapinch
[9:36 AM]  madoka: is the only one that really abuses voltturners well
[9:37 AM]  madoka: dig can't trap the things that qt is u-turning from
[9:37 AM]  madoka: and vully u-turning just procs onix weak armor
[9:38 AM]  madoka: evio dig is a thing but that's kinda niche
[9:38 AM]  madoka: and it's not really on the same level to begin with
[9:38 AM]  madoka: as pinch
[9:38 AM]  madoka: and eject pack is kinda exclusively for dig
[9:38 AM]  madoka: as well
[9:39 AM]  madoka: since dig traps mar/thick fat munch for pix and sometimes fetch'd
[9:39 AM]  madoka: i think they're pretty different
[10:49 AM]  fatty: I think uturn still benefits dig a lot
[10:50 AM]  coco: net positive for sure
[10:50 AM]  fatty: cutie uturning out of lax is a still a ko for dig
[10:50 AM]  coco: I think we need to sit on our hands though
[10:50 AM]  coco: as much as we don't want to
[10:50 AM]  coco: we could start a suspect
[10:50 AM]  coco: and get home midway
[10:53 AM]  fatty: ye waiting is best
[10:54 AM]  fatty: idt the meta is in an unplayable state anyways
[10:54 AM]  fatty: probs the best ss meta rn lol
[10:55 AM]  fatty: not saying much but
[10:59 AM]  madoka: yeah that's what i mean
[10:59 AM]  madoka: dig is kinda volatile
[11:00 AM]  madoka: like it'll be in a fairly different position once home is released
[11:00 AM]  madoka: but trapinch would more or less be the same
[11:00 AM]  madoka: so i think wrt timing
[11:00 AM]  madoka: pinch suspect wouldn't be terrible
[12:03 AM]  Luthier: i mean i get what ur saying coco but does that mean until home gets released
[12:04 AM]  Luthier: were just gonna leave the meta in the current state that its in rn
[12:20 AM]  Quote: the issue is that home could release in the middle of the suspect
[12:20 AM]  fatty: it’s releasing this month
[12:20 AM]  fatty: that’s not a long wait
[12:21 AM]  Luthier: It’s a super long wait fatty
[12:21 AM]  Luthier: That’s 4-5 weeks of SPL
[12:21 AM]  Luthier: Aka the rest of regular season
[12:22 AM]  fatty: if ur asking for a suspect there would be no change for at least 3 weeks or so
[12:22 AM]  fatty: so rushing into something when we know for a fact the meta is changing
[12:22 AM]  fatty: this month for 2 weeks of spl
[12:23 AM]  fatty: is dumb
[12:23 AM]  fatty: major meta shifts mid tourneys are also usually not ideal
[12:28 AM]  Luthier: I mean
[12:28 AM]  Luthier: Idk
[12:29 AM]  Luthier: I think it’s due but
[12:29 AM]  Luthier: if u guys don’t want to not much we can do there
[12:29 AM]  Luthier: Just sucks that the showing we’re giving SPL is awful
[12:29 AM]  fatty: what lol
[12:29 AM]  fatty: if the showing is awful it’s because of play
[12:30 AM]  fatty: ss ou is just as shitty of a meta
[12:30 AM]  fatty: and it’s less of not wanting to, more that it doesn’t make sense to suspect rn
[1:02 AM]  Luthier: the play is fine
[1:02 AM]  Luthier: the play seems bad cuz everyhting is so matchup oriented
[1:12 AM]  coco: the meta is playable
[1:13 AM]  coco: and I'd rather have the players do well in a bad meta
[1:13 AM]  coco: that's far easier to argue in the future.
[1:15 AM]  coco: now if you're suggesting the latter, that the meta is fine and that the players aren't performing well enough, changing the meta mid-tour doesn't fix that
[1:27 AM]  fatty: idet the play is bad altho it definitely could be better in some areas
[1:27 AM]  fatty: was just responding to how apparently we have an awful showing
[1:27 AM]  fatty: when it’s clearly a new gen meta and if anything it’s probably in a better state than ou currently is
[2:26 AM]  Corporal Levi: I think lc is worse than ou right now
[2:26 AM]  Luthier: i think thats a decided fact lol
[2:26 AM]  Luthier: OU isnt bad right now
[2:26 AM]  Luthier: its just boring
[2:26 AM]  Luthier: and lacks creativity
[2:26 AM]  Corporal Levi: Lc was really nice in oras/sm because ou had issues with too many mons
[2:26 AM]  Corporal Levi: So it was super matchup based
[2:27 AM]  Luthier: LC has been shit for like
[2:27 AM]  Luthier: the last 2-3 years
[2:27 AM]  Luthier: LMAO
[2:27 AM]  Corporal Levi: There’s too many niches not being filled in lc right now
[2:27 AM]  Luthier: y
[2:27 AM]  Corporal Levi: N
[2:27 AM]  Luthier: when was it good
[2:27 AM]  Luthier: early sm?
[2:27 AM]  Corporal Levi: Lc was surely better than ou during like
[2:27 AM]  Corporal Levi: 2018 and so on
[2:27 AM]  Luthier: oh im sure but
[2:27 AM]  Luthier: i said
[2:27 AM]  Luthier: lc has been shit
[2:27 AM]  Luthier: for the past 2-3 years
[2:27 AM]  fatty: why is lc worse lol
[2:27 AM]  fatty: what’s these facts
[2:27 AM]  Luthier: lc is so stupid rn
[2:27 AM]  fatty: I’ve seen countless other ppl
[2:27 AM]  Corporal Levi: 2018 was 2 years ago
[2:27 AM]  Luthier: o
[2:27 AM]  Luthier: jsut 2 years then
[2:27 AM]  fatty: say the exact opposite
[2:28 AM]  Luthier: do those people play both tiers
[2:28 AM]  Luthier: actively
[2:28 AM]  fatty: yes sir
[2:28 AM]  Luthier: can i ask who
[2:28 AM]  Corporal Levi: I think late sm lc wasn’t worse than sm ou but there’s room for debate
[2:28 AM]  fatty: mostly the uu dudes like col49 pak n shit
[2:28 AM]  fatty: but I also play both and building ou is absolute trash
[2:28 AM]  Luthier: i mean
[2:29 AM]  Luthier: building in lc is def not good either
[2:29 AM]  fatty: didn’t say it was
[2:29 AM]  fatty: but I don’t think it’s as bad as ou
[2:30 AM]  fatty: having to run a water absorb mon on the off chance they bring a 5% usage non
[2:30 AM]  fatty: mon
[2:30 AM]  Corporal Levi: Okay
[2:30 AM]  fatty: like if u wanna talk mu ou is worse
[2:30 AM]  Corporal Levi: I was just stating my own opinion wrt which was better sorry
[2:30 AM]  fatty: esp finding something that deals with draco dig
[2:31 AM]  Corporal Levi: I think lc is much better for oras and slightly better for sm, worse in other gens
[2:31 AM]  Corporal Levi: Regardless
[2:31 AM]  fatty: I’m strictly talking gen 8
[2:31 AM]  Corporal Levi: I think ss lc is really unpopular right now and I’m not against a suspect test
[2:31 AM]  Corporal Levi: We would have to decide something about if home releases part way
[2:31 AM]  coco: a suspect test happening when home comes out would be a gigantic mistake
[2:32 AM]  coco: even if we had a suspect test and we banned something
[2:32 AM]  madoka: no one has discussed
[2:32 AM]  coco: that existing meta would exist for like a week
[2:32 AM]  Corporal Levi: But I don’t disagree w doka in that Trapinch is fairly independent of any new releases in why it’s unhealthy
[2:32 AM]  madoka: why a suspect test around pinch
[2:32 AM]  madoka: would be bad
[2:32 AM]  madoka: even w home
[2:33 AM]  coco: it's really bad practice to have a suspect test during a metagame change
[2:33 AM]  fatty: because ur not taking the meta into account
[2:33 AM]  Corporal Levi: What’s wrong with that coco
[2:33 AM]  fatty: ur basically saying we’re suspecting this simply because of arena trap
[2:33 AM]  coco: because the metagame in which we are trying to judge
[2:33 AM]  fatty: or the past
[2:33 AM]  coco: is changing
[2:33 AM]  madoka: im taking the meta into account by saying that we should suspect pinch over anything else
[2:33 AM]  madoka: we know exactly what's going to change with the meta
[2:33 AM]  madoka: when home is released
[2:33 AM]  coco: no we don't
[2:33 AM]  madoka: minus maybe??? non-galar forms
[2:34 AM]  fatty: why not just be safe lol
[2:34 AM]  madoka: but even judging both scenarios
[2:34 AM]  fatty: and wait 3 weeks
[2:34 AM]  fatty: Is everyone in dire need
[2:34 AM]  coco: it's like 3 weeks
[2:34 AM]  madoka: trapinch's role
[2:34 AM]  fatty: to change the meta right this minute
[2:34 AM]  madoka: will stay the same
[2:34 AM]  fatty: meta isn’t even that bad
[2:34 AM]  madoka: there's no change that will actively make a difference wrt trapinch
[2:34 AM]  fatty: i also think arena trap should be the move
[2:34 AM]  coco: trapinch could be affected by alolapix dropping
[2:35 AM]  coco: or literally sun being removed
[2:35 AM]  coco: those would be two huge changes
[2:35 AM]  madoka: trapinch doesnt do anything for sun
[2:35 AM]  coco: to trapinch's role
[2:35 AM]  coco: on a team
[2:35 AM]  madoka: in the context of spl level
[2:35 AM]  coco: we don't balance around SPL
[2:35 AM]  coco: and even if we did, yes it does
[2:35 AM]  fatty: what does that mean
[2:35 AM]  madoka: it means
[2:35 AM]  madoka: ferros run 11 spe anyways
[2:35 AM]  madoka: so they don't get murked by oddish pinch sun
[2:36 AM]  coco: every good sun team has a trapper.
[2:36 AM]  madoka: yeah and that trapper
[2:36 AM]  madoka: is dig
[2:36 AM]  fatty: pinch is used just as much
[2:36 AM]  coco: saying that trapinch doesn't do anything for sun
[2:36 AM]  coco: is absolutely astonishing
[2:36 AM]  fatty: just because like 2 weeks ago everyone started to run 11 spe ferro
[2:36 AM]  madoka: it does stuff when you're vs bad players
[2:36 AM]  fatty: doesn’t make it useless
[2:36 AM]  madoka: that don't use 11 spe ferro
[2:36 AM]  madoka: sry.
[2:36 AM]  fatty: what abt lax
[2:36 AM]  coco: I mean we've been running 11 speed ferro for like
[2:37 AM]  coco: the entire spl
[2:37 AM]  madoka: yeah
[2:37 AM]  madoka: and have you seen
[2:37 AM]  coco: but that doesn't change the fact that trapinch can also run
[2:37 AM]  madoka: a sun oddish pinch team
[2:37 AM]  coco: 11 speed
[2:38 AM]  madoka: pinch does not trap lax on sun
[2:38 AM]  madoka: unless you're running wisp floon
[2:38 AM]  madoka: which is committing too many slots
[2:38 AM]  madoka: and you hard lose to other stuff
[2:38 AM]  coco: sun pinch can trap munchlax.
[2:38 AM]  fatty: ye what lol
[2:38 AM]  madoka: can you explain
[2:38 AM]  fatty: I rly don’t get this
[2:38 AM]  madoka: how pinch is trapping 10 spe or 14 def munch
[2:38 AM]  madoka: on its own
[2:38 AM]  madoka: w.o support
[2:38 AM]  fatty: Nobody said on its own
[2:39 AM]  fatty: But the same way dig is used
[2:39 AM]  madoka: can  you give an example
[2:39 AM]  madoka: of how it would trap munch then w. support
[2:39 AM]  madoka: on a reasonably-built sun team
[2:39 AM]  coco: the same way it would outside of sun
[2:40 AM]  coco: lax needs to remain at near full to win the matchup
[2:40 AM]  madoka: the way pinch traps lax outside of sun is burning it w wisp and praying it's not facade
[2:40 AM]  madoka: or praying it's facade and chipping it
[2:41 AM]  coco: so you're suggesting 11 speed pinch
[2:41 AM]  coco: cannot trap munchlax
[2:41 AM]  Corporal Levi: Trapinch is good on sun but sun isn’t even the worst thing that it potentially breaks imo
[2:41 AM]  Corporal Levi: It does still trap pawn for sun doka
[2:41 AM]  madoka: 11 spe pinch
[2:41 AM]  madoka: literally does not exist
[2:41 AM]  madoka: but yes
[2:41 AM]  coco: not yet it doesn't
[2:41 AM]  madoka: sure it can trap munch.
[2:41 AM]  fatty: ok if ur talking techs
[2:41 AM]  coco: it's going to be run
[2:41 AM]  Corporal Levi: We’ve run 11 spe pinch
[2:41 AM]  madoka: also i concede
[2:41 AM]  coco: with 11 speed ferroseed
[2:41 AM]  madoka: about pawn
[2:41 AM]  fatty: then pinch would be the next tech
[2:42 AM]  Corporal Levi: It doesn’t trap munch that well either LOL
[2:42 AM]  coco: it can though is the point, and trapinch has ties to sun
[2:42 AM]  coco: is the endpoint
[2:42 AM]  Corporal Levi: Relying on pinch for ferro/munch is bad
[2:42 AM]  coco: that should be made here
[2:42 AM]  madoka: it has ties but at the end of the day
[2:42 AM]  madoka: is pinch breaking sun?
[2:42 AM]  madoka: it's dig doing that
[2:42 AM]  Corporal Levi: If munch is injured
[2:42 AM]  coco: that's not the point
[2:42 AM]  Corporal Levi: It’s probably at +1 def anyways
[2:42 AM]  coco: the point in contention
[2:42 AM]  madoka: how is that not the point
[2:43 AM]  coco: is sun affecting pinch at any denomination
[2:43 AM]  coco: because if it is
[2:43 AM]  madoka: if pinch isn't giving broken support to sun
[2:43 AM]  fatty: pix breaks sun
[2:43 AM]  coco: holding a suspect test
[2:43 AM]  madoka: then sun being removed with home
[2:43 AM]  coco: for trapinch
[2:43 AM]  coco: in the middle of home
[2:43 AM]  Corporal Levi: Pix doesn’t care
[2:43 AM]  coco: would be really really bad
[2:43 AM]  madoka: doesn't matter
[2:43 AM]  Corporal Levi: About Trapinch support
[2:43 AM]  Corporal Levi: That’s the main thing
[2:43 AM]  madoka: in terms of pinch being broken
[2:43 AM]  Corporal Levi: It’s oddish that does
[2:43 AM]  coco: it changes the metagame
[2:43 AM]  Corporal Levi: But of dish isn’t getting banned with home
[2:43 AM]  Corporal Levi: Oddish
[2:43 AM]  coco: and trapinch's role in it
[2:43 AM]  madoka: what would change
[2:43 AM]  coco: in a way that is impossible to theorize.
[2:43 AM]  madoka: wrt to pinch
[2:44 AM]  madoka: sun is gone so it can't be used to middling effect
[2:44 AM]  madoka: on sun teams
[2:44 AM]  madoka: is that a reason
[2:44 AM]  madoka: to not suspect it now
[2:44 AM]  madoka: all its other roles
[2:44 AM]  madoka: are the same
[2:44 AM]  madoka: broken support on webs, broken support w birds
[2:44 AM]  madoka: those stay the same
[2:44 AM]  coco: webs might change fundamentally too
[2:44 AM]  coco: we don't know for certain
[2:45 AM]  fatty: I would love to click X on both trappers rn
[2:45 AM]  Corporal Levi: I don’t think the metagame is fine right now
[2:45 AM]  coco: I think an arena trap suspect would be fine too for what it's worth
[2:45 AM]  fatty: I just don’t see the point in rushing it when we have a big meta change incoming
[2:45 AM]  coco: but we have a substantial change in the metagame
[2:45 AM]  Corporal Levi: I don’t feel strongly for a suspect either
[2:45 AM]  coco: that is coming almost immediately
[2:45 AM]  Corporal Levi: Because yea
[2:45 AM]  Corporal Levi: Home is coming
[2:45 AM]  coco: we can review trapping or whatever
[2:45 AM]  Corporal Levi: But I honestly don’t like it at all
[2:46 AM]  coco: following that
[2:46 AM]  madoka: okay we haven't convinced each other in the slightest one way or another so i'm just going to leave it at that
[2:46 AM]  Corporal Levi: I think the sentiment for wanting to at least have something playable or even different for a week or two
[2:46 AM]  madoka: have we decided
[2:46 AM]  Corporal Levi: Is understandable
[2:46 AM]  madoka: on who's gonna undertake the secretary role
[2:46 AM]  coco: I think the meta is playable for certain
[2:46 AM]  fatty: it’s definitely playable
[2:46 AM]  fatty: get outta here with that lol
[2:46 AM]  coco: but that might just be because we're winning