#bookclub 20170603

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11:43:22 ** START OF BOOKCLUB **
11:43:26 **************************
11:43:29 oh well
11:43:33 D<desvoeuxensis> lol
11:43:39 G<~grokefeller> groke my ascii art keeps degenerating
11:43:53 D— desvoeuxensis pats grokefeller.
11:43:59 G<~grokefeller> groke thank you
11:44:17 so everyone, what did you think of the story briefly?
11:45:25 H<HeatherRhodes> need for survival makes pretty things ugly
11:45:30 G<ghost_girl> Ok I just finished :D
11:46:40 J<jfoifs> i thought it was pretty cute
11:46:50 G<~grokefeller> groke I don't know about you, but since I started bookclubbing, I've had this standard assumption that most stories are some sort of parable or analogy and in this case I kept wondering what's the analogy here, I guess one could say it stimulated my imagination.
11:47:13 H<HeatherRhodes> adam and eve
11:47:16 X<xDominik> i was wondering if i could randomnly go to a dessert
11:47:23 H<HeatherRhodes> the narrator mentions it in the story
11:47:40 G<ghost_girl> Well its sort of saying that art is a living thing, open to interpretation and in trying to strictly control it we keep it from evolving
11:47:49 But it always will evolve
11:47:52 X<xDominik> and accidently dig out some old ass music records an excentric scientist digged in
11:48:07 :D
11:48:18 D<desvoeuxensis> Initially I found it a bit frustrating, because it was so short and the scientific method bothered me and idk how interested I am in the culture vs survival ideas.  But then inex got me engaged in the whole idea of how individual our personal perception of music is and that fascinated me more.
11:48:59 X<xDominik> or old ass books
11:49:09 D<desvoeuxensis> I agree with that ghost_girl
11:49:11 X<xDominik> basically anything that you couldnt save 100 hears ago that easily
11:49:13 H<HeatherRhodes> dick's science fiction doesnt focus at all in the technical aspects of technology
11:49:20 D<doru> It actually reminded me of myself. I love to improvise on the piano(freestyle it on top of other repertoire pieces) and mom is FOREVER asking me to record my notes so I'll remember them later. But NO, I get so engrossed that I complete my forget about notating. I end up losing so many cool tunes and rhythms. What they're doing here is great in spirit but seems too implausible. The author makes no attempt to make this machine sound
11:49:20 realistic at all. I believe this is called Deus ex machina - basically a miracle which magically solves the problem at hand and ties all loose ends. And there is no mention of how the animals and their behaviour mimic the subtleties(articulation, dynamics and phrasing) of the original work which make some wonder how helpful this is in safekeeping works of art.
11:49:31 G<~grokefeller> groke HeatherRhodes, i see no explicit reference to adam and eve
11:50:08 D<desvoeuxensis> The idea of freezing music in one form seems a bit silly to me, as it is the job of individual musicians to interpret music as they perform it, and then the job of listeners to interpret it some more and etc etc.  So how can a machine interpret something into its true form?
11:50:35 I would have liked the mozart bird to have been dropped right back into the machine immediately to see if it came out the same as its original form.  WHo is to say the machine did it right to begin with - evolution aside.
11:50:41 G<~grokefeller> groke ghost_girl, are  you sure it's art and not more generally about culture, norms and so on
11:50:41 H<HeatherRhodes> grokefeller: yes, my mistake... he just mentions god's frustration at his living things
11:50:46 D<doru> Music afficionados are always going on about a canon interpretation
11:50:47 D<desvoeuxensis> This "scientist" was so bad at  his job
11:50:53 D<doru> "Standard"
11:51:00 X<xDominik> its not freezing but preserving
11:51:28 D<doru> For example, people regard Rubinstein's interpretation of Chopin's Fantaisie-Impromptu as the THE best one.
11:52:11 G<~grokefeller> groke yeah doru the details are hand-waved away here heh
11:52:15 D<doru> So while people might want to play it a different way or create another arrangement, those are all based on the original manuscript
11:52:23 Lampshaded
11:53:15 G<~grokefeller> groke doru, do you play classical music on the piano?
11:53:16 D<doru> All in all, it seems like a very thin plot
11:53:27 H<HeatherRhodes> i liked the ending
11:53:30 X<xDominik> but how do you feel if you think you are the last person to ever listen to that sound or see that picture?
11:53:36 H<HeatherRhodes> the bug is building somethin
11:53:39 G<~grokefeller> groke ending was good with the beetle
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11:53:49 D<desvoeuxensis> Your example is really good, doru - of your mom wanting you to keep your notes on your improvisation, but you just feeling too sucked up in creating.  I found myself really captivated by the question of how important it was to "preserve" works of genius (as decided by anyone) when the drive to create music is so intrinsic and unkillable in us as a species.
11:54:07 D<doru> Conflict - Music will be lost forever
11:54:07 Solution - A machine that prevents it perfectly
11:54:14 G<ghost_girl> Hmm I guess even if he was talking culture and norms the point is it doesnt make sense to stop things from evolving by trying to freeze them
11:54:27 G<~grokefeller> groke the ending hinted that from chaos there came something mysterious and novel
11:54:33 G<ghost_girl> There is no way as long as anything is alive
11:54:40 To keep things still
11:54:47 D<desvoeuxensis> I think that speaks to what ghost_girl was saying too - that music is ever-evolving, and so even if we lost all the manuscripts, they would ultimately still be a part of contemporary music... b/c music is always building on itself
11:54:53 H<HeatherRhodes> ghost_girl: but the things hes trying to preserve are already freezed
11:55:03 D<doru> Precisely desvoeuxensis
11:55:13 X<xDominik> i didnt understand the ending with the beetle
11:55:19 G<~grokefeller> groke yes ghost_girl
11:55:20 X<xDominik> cause bach is really chaotic
11:55:20 D<doru> Nothing right now isn't derivates in some form
11:55:25 *derivative
11:55:29 X<xDominik> afaik
11:55:35 D<doru> My music teacher told me this explicitly.
11:56:08 G<ghost_girl> The ending is a beetle that started making its own art
11:56:14 D<doru> Music has never really stagnated.
11:56:15 X<xDominik> oh
11:56:15 D<desvoeuxensis> lol I really liked that beetle ending.  But it was the Beethoven beetle, not the Bach one.  The fact that his little house had a door was so ominous.  It made me think that the music animals had perhaps a much higher intelligence than natural animal species.
11:56:20 X<xDominik> i didnt read it so much tbh
11:56:31 i just flew over it vecause i thought i only had half an hour
11:56:49 because i forgot about the bookclub again
11:57:00 D<desvoeuxensis> It was like Dick just gave us one more extra mide game
11:57:05 mind*
11:57:12 G<~grokefeller> groke music people, did the animals somehow resemble the music they were representing?
11:57:30 D<doru> They should have, grokefeller
11:57:32 H<HeatherRhodes> yes, they somehow did
11:57:36 G<ghost_girl> The wagner animal made me laugh
11:57:37 D<doru> But the details weren't made clear
11:58:04 X<xDominik> till today i never read a single work from that dick
11:58:11 D<desvoeuxensis> jfoifs and I talked about that a bit - how the Wagner animal was a selfish survivalist like Wagner himself and got into quarrels with other musicians and had an aggressive nature
11:58:26 J<jfoifs> the brahms animal avoided the wagner animal because brahms and wagner had a really bitter back-and-forth in the music press during their day
11:58:29 G<~grokefeller> groke first day xDominik got dick
11:58:42 X<xDominik> ^
11:58:53 G<~grokefeller> groke and he liked it
11:58:59 D<doru> And Beethoven was blind in his prime, so perhaps he liked the solitude of his own home
11:59:02 X<xDominik> would recommend
11:59:04 H<HeatherRhodes> what about the other dick's story you read, was that one similar to this one?
11:59:08 G<ghost_girl> Wagner was a pretty huge anti-semite as well, and sort of inspired some nazi ideas
11:59:21 D<desvoeuxensis> I thought the Mozart bird was a bit pedantic for Mozart
11:59:28 J<jfoifs> beethoven was deaf, not blind
11:59:30 G<ghost_girl> Hence his violent nature
11:59:40 D<desvoeuxensis> His music is so exhuberant and playful - not like a sweet little bird
11:59:47 G<~grokefeller> groke oh i didnt know that about wagner
11:59:54 and brahms
11:59:59 D<doru> Again, I would have preferred a long flrm version of this
12:00:15 Aren't birds playful too?
12:00:20 H<HeatherRhodes> desvoeuxensis: maybe the animal just represents one piece, not all his works
12:00:22 D<doru> The Magic Flute
12:00:26 G<~grokefeller> groke HeatherRhodes, no i dont think it was very similar really
12:00:28 D<doru> I doubt it HeatherRhodes
12:00:31 D<desvoeuxensis> Right, HeatherRhodes - good point.
12:00:33 X<xDominik> i didnt get any analogys to the artists tbh
12:01:01 if there were any but im pretty sure there were
12:01:03 D<doru> No no no eiat
12:01:04 Wait
12:01:09 You're absolutely right HeatherRhodes
12:01:10 D<desvoeuxensis> There is this silly youtube video about this story that plays the pieces referenced in the book with images of the animals described (or similar types of animals) and it's actually kinda fun to watch
12:01:20 D<doru> The Bach bugs represented a fugue
12:01:32 You're spot on
12:01:52 I thought each animal encompassed the overall style of each artist
12:01:57 What do you think, jfoifs?
12:02:25 G<~grokefeller> groke oh i missed that video
12:02:31 D<desvoeuxensis> Well he said that all the Bach beetles were for the 48 preludes and fugues
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12:02:43 D<desvoeuxensis> And they were all different sizes and slightly different
12:02:46 wb HeatherRhodes
12:02:49 err
12:02:51 J<jfoifs> well, i didn't think there was any direct resemblance between the animals and works/composers
12:02:52 D<desvoeuxensis> or additional heather
12:02:53 G<~grokefeller> groke wb HeatherRhodes1
12:03:05 H<HeatherRhodes1> thanks
12:03:21 J<jfoifs> i don't know much about animal behavior though, except for cats
12:03:44 H<HeatherRhodes1> why did the machine fail?
12:03:51 D<desvoeuxensis> Yeah, I felt that even if we said it was about a specific prelude, we might all perceive it to be a different animal
12:04:17 G<ghost_girl> Because its a failed concept :P
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12:04:24 D<doru> Sorry yes jfoifs
12:04:35 I meant to say hearing impaired
12:04:41 Not visually impaired
12:05:35 Why couldn't he have charaterized the animals in more detail...
12:05:43 G<ghost_girl> My brotger sort of studies culture as his work. Mainly he studies subcultures in certain parts of a city
12:05:47 D<doru> Characterised
12:05:52 G<ghost_girl> London for a long time
12:05:55 D<doru> Mhm, ghost_girl
12:06:12 G<ghost_girl> And one of tge thing he notes is that
12:06:56 If you took the same exact thing and placed it in different parts of tge world it becomes different in each part
12:07:20 Like a type of mysic
12:07:28 *music
12:07:51 D<desvoeuxensis> Well the question that he proposes in the story is: what is a good survival mechanism for an animal to have?  And I think from that leads the question - what survival mechanisms does music have.  I think music has pretty good survival ability as a whole - much like a virus that gets into peoples systems.  And changes how they think and feel, and that they can't forget.
12:07:57 D<doru> Just like loanwords, then, ghost_girl
12:08:01 G<ghost_girl> Because people that band together will change it or themselves
12:08:02 G<~grokefeller> groke oh so it adapts like in the story
12:08:13 dick was right again
12:08:42 G<ghost_girl> Accents of the same language for example
12:08:47 Or dialects
12:08:49 D<doru> So do you think that the perceived "distortion" in the music was a metaphor for music to evolve or do you think it was introduced by the machine?
12:08:59 D<desvoeuxensis> That's interesting, ghost_girl... I was kinda thinking something similar.  Because even playing the same piece on a different instrument makes a dramatic change.
12:09:12 D<doru> Yeag
12:09:13 Yeah
12:09:13 G<ghost_girl> Yeah
12:09:50 D<desvoeuxensis> I think what Dick intended was certainly that music, like all things, is changed by exposure to a different environment, as ghost_girl says
12:09:51 G<~grokefeller> groke i thought it was metal or such the distortion
12:10:19 G<ghost_girl> But even just time
12:10:19 D<doru> Or course, desvoeuxensis, but then we lose track of the original and virus strains(modifications) affect our memory of the original thing.
12:10:30 G<ghost_girl> Or different people
12:10:39 H<HeatherRhodes1> i noticed that the story is very pessimistic... about the future, about what life does to pretty things - it makes them ugly
12:10:58 D<doru> Just like how a remix sometimes becomes even more popular than the original song, which then fades into the background.
12:11:08 And is soon forgotteb
12:11:12 G<~grokefeller> groke guys i have the ultimate question
12:11:12 D<doru> Forgotten
12:11:17 G<~grokefeller> groke listen guys
12:11:21 guys
12:11:26 H<HeatherRhodes1> someone more optimistic could have make the transformation of the animals as something that added to their beauty
12:11:30 D<doru> HeatherRhodes1: Pooh. Nice catch
12:11:30 G<~grokefeller> groke what is the oldest known song?
12:11:34 D<doru> *Oooh
12:11:39 D<desvoeuxensis> Perhaps we do, doru.  But does a different interpretation of a musical piece really lose it.  Like when a bit of jazz is incorporated into some industrial music, do we lose our memory of what the original piece was and what it meant?  Or is it like a new memory is linked to the original memory?
12:11:54 D<doru> grokefeller: Define song
12:12:02 G<ghost_girl> Probably some eastern chant
12:12:05 H<HeatherRhodes1> some hymn
12:12:08 D<desvoeuxensis> I feel like musical interpretations are more like a network of ideas than one animal eating another
12:12:14 D<doru> Most likely religious
12:12:15 G<~grokefeller> groke HeatherRhodes1, maybe it was that doc and his friend were old and old people always think the new stuff is bad
12:12:27 doru, the oldest melody
12:12:28 D<doru> ^^ That happens
12:12:30 Gen gap
12:12:33 D<desvoeuxensis> I read that Dick was elitist about music and he himself wasn't into non-classical music
12:12:33 H<HeatherRhodes1> grokefeller: yes
12:12:37 you're right
12:12:44 D<desvoeuxensis> So it's a bit autobiographical in that sense
12:12:50 J<jfoifs> the epitaph of seikilos is the oldest complete score found
12:13:00 that we can recognize as music
12:13:05 D<doru> desvoeuxensis: Perhaps not totally lose it, but over time, you begin to think that the jazz solo was ALWAYS part of the so g
12:13:08 *song
12:13:28 Sounds Greek, jfoifs
12:13:33 J<jfoifs> yes it is
12:14:03 D<doru> How old is it?
12:14:08 J<jfoifs> ancient greek
12:14:11 D<desvoeuxensis> Well the interesting thing was that Labyrinth was able to recognize the animals despite their changes, and I think that's true of musical evolutions.  It made less sense to me that when he put it back through the machine it just sounded alien.  It should have sounded like a different sort of Bachy thing.
12:14:12 J<jfoifs> i forget how old it is
12:14:14 G<ghost_girl> Greek is too new
12:14:17 G<~grokefeller> groke can one play it jfoifs ?
12:14:23 like on piano
12:14:25 J<jfoifs> yeah it's been notated out
12:14:26 G<ghost_girl> It would have been before then
12:14:58 D<doru> desvoeuxensis: Correct.
12:15:32 G<~grokefeller> groke yeah desvoeuxensis
12:16:03 D<doru> I just googled
12:16:14 There's a Sumerian hymn from 1400 BC
12:16:22 Older than ancient Greek apparently
12:16:45 G<~grokefeller> groke epitah is date from 200 BC to 100 AD
12:16:48 dated
12:16:49 D<doru> Anyway - doesn't matter so much
12:16:51 http://www.openculture.com/2014/07/the-oldest-song-in-the-world.html
12:17:03 G<ghost_girl> Sumerian sounds about right
12:17:41 G<~grokefeller> groke The Seikilos epitaph is the oldest surviving complete musical composition, including musical notation, from anywhere in the world
12:18:17 so to conserve music its best to carve it into stone
12:18:39 J<jfoifs> lol
12:18:45 D<doru> Meh
12:18:55 G<ghost_girl> Or eat it!
12:19:02 D<doru> I'm sure either isn't one size fits all
12:19:06 *it isn't
12:19:09 Forget the either
12:19:25 D<desvoeuxensis> One thing that interested me is whether the machine might have gotten the interpretation right.  Like, maybe the true essence of the musical pieces was honestly revealed in their animal nature - ferocities, tenacities, irritabilities, seductions, that we weren't completely cognizant of.  To what degree to we even know the nature of music and its personality and abilities?
12:19:57 J<jfoifs> that's a good point
12:20:21 D<desvoeuxensis> Maybe if there was a machine that was super good at its preserving job, we would be surprised by what was revealed, when we saw the music in a different form and light.
12:20:38 D<doru> Unfortunately we don't know
12:20:45 J<jfoifs> there are areas of the brain that can be damaged and cause a condition called amusia, which is the inability to process music
12:20:50 D<doru> They've left it quote abruptly - in the true spirit of a short story
12:20:52 J<jfoifs> where it just sounds like a terrible din
12:20:53 D<desvoeuxensis> We think of the songs as pretty noises, sometimes, but they express the intention and nature of the artists behind them.
12:20:57 D<doru> *quite
12:21:05 D<desvoeuxensis> Fascinating, jfoifs
12:21:09 G<~grokefeller> groke never heard of that before jfoifs
12:21:14 D<doru> Undoubtedly
12:21:29 It is another form of expression
12:21:31 D<desvoeuxensis> Kinda like the aphasia except with music
12:21:40 G<ghost_girl> :(
12:21:51 D<desvoeuxensis> Music is a language, so that makes sense
12:21:59 whoops jinx doru
12:22:07 D<doru> Haha :)
12:22:10 D<desvoeuxensis> :)
12:22:16 G<~grokefeller> groke :)
12:22:30 J<jfoifs> brb
12:22:36 G<~grokefeller> groke guys listen
12:22:49 D<doru> We'll miss you jfoifs
12:22:55 G<~grokefeller> groke if you got to conserve one thing into 2000 years from now
12:22:59 what would you pick
12:23:44 D<doru> How about the the wikimedia project
12:23:52 G<ghost_girl> Smells like teen spirit. Or probably a Cure song.
12:24:09 D<desvoeuxensis> The Svalbard Global Seed Vault is what is most important to me.
12:24:13 G<~grokefeller> groke the Brothers Karamazov
12:24:20 D<doru> Yeah?
12:24:45 G<~grokefeller> groke why wikimedia and not wikipedia?
12:24:54 D<doru> Wikipedia is a subset of Wikipedia
12:25:00 G<~grokefeller> groke oh
12:25:08 D<doru> Dictionaries, textbooks, encyclopedias and tons more
12:25:14 G<~grokefeller> groke got it
12:25:48 D<doru> Basically knowledge
12:26:14 Knowledge is always useful
12:26:22 G<~grokefeller> groke crafts
12:26:37 D<doru> Not trying to argue
12:26:42 G<~grokefeller> groke yeah
12:27:01 other thoughts?
12:27:05 on anything
12:27:11 D<desvoeuxensis> I also thought his portrayal of Doc Labyrinthe himself was kinda interesting
12:27:14 D<doru> But we don't know, for example, if there willever be conditions to germinate preserved seeds for example
12:27:17 D<desvoeuxensis> He went through such pains to describe him as a weirdo
12:27:22 It was like he was making fun of him teh whole time
12:27:33 even his basic goal he mocked "like most people who read a great deal and who have too much time on their hands, had become convinced that our civilization was going the way of Rome."
12:27:58 I think Dick was definitely trying to point out to us how laughable it is for us to exalt "master works of art" and to try and hang onto anything
12:28:11 And maybe this is because Dick was so interested in perception and illusion
12:28:35 D<doru> Yeah he was certainly judgy
12:28:39 D<desvoeuxensis> Maybe to him master works were an illusion but also fatalistic fears were equally a matter of perception
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12:29:18 D<desvoeuxensis> So it's almost like he is saying that all of reality is just a matter of your perception and who knows what it is best to perceive and we should all just enjoy it as best we can
12:29:32 D<doru> Is he?
12:29:38 Then why try to preserve
12:29:38 D<desvoeuxensis> Idk
12:29:51 Well I don't think Dick is siding with Labyrinth
12:29:53 D<doru> Mankind won't die out if all the current music is lost
12:30:03 We'll start again
12:30:09 D<desvoeuxensis> I think he sides with the narrator, who is just kinda interested and impartial observer of the whole enterprise
12:30:20 D<doru> So like a 2nd person narrative?
12:30:42 Seems a lot like a thought experiment
12:30:50 Schrödinger's cat
12:31:15 D<desvoeuxensis> Well I think the real moral of the story was just to get us to think about what we were so worried about and what the value was in what we were trying to protect and whether it was even possible and whether we should worry about it even if it's not
12:31:46 I mean the little animals didn't turn out as Labyrinth expected and he was all sad but they were kinda fascinating after all
12:31:51 Like the little house building beetle
12:32:09 Maybe it's not so bad if everything is evolving and changing all the time
12:32:27 D<doru> So an experiment - to see did something like this would actually be viable or even necessary
12:32:31 Yeah
12:32:38 G<~grokefeller> groke CHAOS REIGNS
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12:32:42 D<doru> Someone will remember and carry it on
12:32:43 G<~grokefeller> groke hi
12:32:45 D<desvoeuxensis> I mean he made it a very grim tale, but the character that was most tragic was also just kinda a joke
12:32:47 D<doru> Like folk songs
12:32:55 LOL
12:33:10 It sounded very plain to.me
12:33:13 Not tragic at all
12:33:27 They could as easily have been talking about the weather
12:33:33 D<desvoeuxensis> He's not even competent to build the machine, he doesn't think it through right, he gets too scared to go into the jungle, he gets his hand hurt, he is just basically too chicken to even fish the manuscript out at the end -- Labyrinth has to be representing a foolish kind of thinking
12:33:45 He's not sympathetic whatsoever
12:33:45 D<doru> Deadpan is the word
12:34:30 D<desvoeuxensis> I mean every time I get to the part of the story where he is kicking the Schubert animal I just cringe
12:34:33 He's not even a man
12:34:33 D<doru> In other words, he couldn't preserve himself
12:34:43 D<desvoeuxensis> He's like a little kid, having a meltdown teh whole time
12:34:52 I just want to shake him and go: get a grip, Labyrinth
12:34:59 H<HeatherRhodes> i think there is another short story about labyrinth
12:35:04 D<desvoeuxensis> Is there?
12:35:05 J<jfoifs> i think he was just a disposable character in the story there to give a reason why the machine was built
12:36:04 D<doru> Not serious at all
12:36:13 Yeah, you got it perfectly jfoifs
12:36:19 D<desvoeuxensis> Maybe but why spend so much time describing him in such loving (silly) detail
12:36:21 G<~grokefeller> groke no clue desvoeuxensis
12:36:23 D<desvoeuxensis> I think he goes out of his way
12:36:27 But it's not really that important
12:36:28 H<HeatherRhodes> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Short_Happy_Life_of_the_Brown_Oxford
12:36:31 D<desvoeuxensis> Just a throwaway thought of mine
12:36:35 D<doru> Just a puppet to bring the machine to life and then quietly get out of the way
12:36:49 D<desvoeuxensis> lol thanks HeatherRhodes
12:36:52 That's kinda funny
12:36:57 He invents lots of silly machines apparently
12:36:59 G<~grokefeller> groke chime, say something
12:37:09 D<doru> I'm not giving up on you
12:37:18 D<desvoeuxensis> Be careful groke - chime has developed poisonous spines
12:37:26 G<~grokefeller> groke Av0 also
12:37:39 D<desvoeuxensis> They will evolve away again though as soon as we move him
12:37:45 into a new story
12:37:56 G<~grokefeller> groke chime isnt allowed to evolve
12:37:58 D<doru> Who knows
12:38:00 D<desvoeuxensis> LOL
12:38:01 G<~grokefeller> groke he's our angela merkel
12:38:08 D<desvoeuxensis> Are you the God of this bookclub of Eden?
12:38:13 G<~grokefeller> groke yes
12:38:25 D<doru> Nonyij are simply facilitating it
12:38:30 *No you arw
12:38:49 C<chime> i don't think the story was particularly pessimistic, just a commentary on how attempting to preserve the past statically is a dead end
12:39:06 D<desvoeuxensis> mm well put
12:39:06 G<~grokefeller> groke thanks chime
12:39:39 D<doru> But, on the contrary, isn't it trying to persevere the past dynamically?
12:39:43 *preserve
12:39:49 Statically would be a score
12:39:54 But these are animals
12:40:06 D<desvoeuxensis> The animal forms are also perhaps kinda a commentary on the war within us between our grubby survivalistic animal nature and our sublime potential?
12:40:16 C<chime> and similarly, the doc wasn't necessarily a throwaway but maybe criticism of an elitist intellectual attitude towards art. kind of like one of my music teachers: the great composers made true art, it must remain as it is and performed exactly like it was meant to be and nothing else should be considered
12:40:45 D<desvoeuxensis> I like that, chime
12:40:49 D<doru> "Canon or nothing"
12:40:49 C<chime> the animals are supposed to turn back into the exact original score
12:40:53 D<doru> Yeah
12:41:21 But did you expect the machine to make changes?
12:41:32 D<desvoeuxensis> "Labyrinth worried about this, because he loved music, because he hated the idea that some day there would be no more Brahms and Mozart, no more gentle chamber music that he could dreamily associate with powdered wigs and resined bows, with long, slender candles, melting away in the gloom."
12:41:36 D<doru> It isn't clear what produced the distortion
12:41:48 G<~grokefeller> groke idolatry i'd say
12:42:05 D<doru> Or very specific tastes
12:42:26 If you don't use contrapuntal voices, Bach is ruined
12:42:32 Forever
12:43:08 Also seems very quixotic/dream-like
12:43:13 D<desvoeuxensis> They stepped away from Labyrinth-God and his commandments and entered into idolatry and sin, grokefeller?  Or did you mean something different?
12:43:31 D<doru> Straight out of a movie
12:44:08 D<desvoeuxensis> Yes I agree doru, chime.  He's quite ridiculously fussy about what he expects out of classical music.  Certainly a representative of a repressive faction.
12:44:23 powdered wigs indeed
12:44:27 G<~grokefeller> groke no i meant the worshipping of specific implementations of music instead of the god of Apollo, the god of music poetry and truth
12:44:30 D<doru> ^^
12:45:12 (des)
12:45:14 G<~grokefeller> groke idolatry is always followed by some kind of fail
12:45:23 D<doru> How are.music and truth connected?
12:45:24 C<chime> the idea of preserving things just for the sake of preservation is an interesting one in general
12:45:27 D<desvoeuxensis> Right, that makes sense grokefeller
12:45:50 It kinda is, chime.  I agree.
12:45:59 D<doru> But that is not what Labyrinth is hinting at
12:46:10 He honestly wants to listen to this music in the future
12:46:15 Not simply hoard it
12:46:22 C<chime> i once started a debate with my social worker.. given the premise that we can return species from extinction with dna tech, is there a purpose in saving species from extinction as opposed to attempting to improve the lives of individual creatures?
12:46:45 G<~grokefeller> groke biodiversity maybe
12:46:51 D<doru> Either that
12:46:57 Or existential nihilsm
12:47:09 There is no logical need for any species to exist
12:47:11 C<chime> there are many close to extinct species that aren't relevant to biodiversity
12:47:37 G<~grokefeller> groke for the lulz then
12:47:52 D<doru> If you consider the big big picture
12:48:00 Why is humanity relevant to the universe?
12:48:00 C<chime> i think it's interesting because people are uneasy to think about the end of an entire species on such a rational level
12:48:15 *feel uneasy
12:48:18 D<doru> In fact, why is there even a universe?
12:48:35 Who/what are we satisfying?
12:48:37 G<~grokefeller> groke i need to go.. you keep on chatting if you feel like it.. thanks everyone for coming xDominik jfoifs HeatherRhodes ghost_girl doru desvoeuxensis chime Av0 (hope i didnt forget anyone)
12:48:46 @desvoeuxensis was opped (+o) by ~grokefeller
12:48:53 D<doru> See ya grokefeller
12:49:37 G<ghost_girl> Bye groke
12:49:50 G<~grokefeller> groke desvoeuxensis takes over the op role
12:49:53 D<@desvoeuxensis> So the idea chime is we take a big picture view of preserving a habitable biosphere - versus  fussing about preserving individual species that are not really super important in the large scheme?
12:50:08 G<ghost_girl> I'm gonna have to get up soon
12:50:11 C<chime> yes
12:50:26 D<@desvoeuxensis> Yeah that's an interesting point, and very relevant to this story
12:50:26 D<doru> But isnt every species part of the food web?
12:50:37 Somehow connected
12:50:40 ?
12:50:42 D<@desvoeuxensis> We get hyper emotional about what we perceive to be important
12:51:12 And waste our time and resources on that endeavor versus being logical about what would be most useful for most creatures
12:51:13 C<chime> well, what changes if elephants disappear?
12:52:00 G<ghost_girl> The stuff that hunted elephants are hungrier
12:52:06 D<doru> I'm not a biologist
12:52:09 But yeah that ^^
12:52:17 G<ghost_girl> But we're missing elephants
12:52:27 D<@desvoeuxensis> Well certainly something else would fill in the void left by the elephants
12:52:41 G<ghost_girl> Who are huge, beautiful, intelligent & emotional creatures
12:52:46 D<doru> But not again and again
12:52:53 Nature can heal itself
12:53:06 But only to a limit
12:53:07 G<ghost_girl> Thing is
12:53:19 Nothing will ever be an elephant
12:53:19 C<chime> i'm not advocating the removal of "unnecessary and unsuccessful" species anyway, i just think it's worthwhile to look at the big picture too
12:53:30 G<ghost_girl> Never replace an elephant
12:53:30 D<doru> And we humans are definitely pushing things
12:53:35 G<ghost_girl> However
12:53:41 C<chime> because we're used to this "we need to save them all" mindset
12:53:56 D<doru> Well it is good to question these things
12:54:02 G<ghost_girl> Do we have to preserve things just because they are unique and beautiful?
12:54:17 D<doru> I'm not knowledgeable enough to accurately give an answer
12:54:58 D<@desvoeuxensis> Right, well, it's useful in the sense that people are emotional animals, so we are more likely to feel like doing something if we have a cute face to go along with a cause.  But probably the money and effort that results from that are never thereafter channeled in a logical way to logical goals.
12:55:01 C<chime> it's also worthwhile to look at the individuals of such a preserved species from a moral perspective
12:55:18 we have several species that exist in zoos only
12:55:22 D<@desvoeuxensis> Right
12:55:40 C<chime> preserving nature most unnaturally
12:56:32 G<ghost_girl> Its kind of a sad world. Every creature is unique and interesting and wonderful. And every creature dies.
12:56:38 D<@desvoeuxensis> Well I think it's just like the music question, ghost_girl.  It's the first thing jfoifs said about the story too.  "who determines what is a work of musical genius" -- and who determines what is worth saving and fighting for.
12:57:01 C<chime> i think every living thing is an individual first, and member of a species second :)
12:57:16 D<@desvoeuxensis> How well equipped are we to make a rational decision about what to save and preserve when faced with an apocalyptic scenario
12:57:42 G<ghost_girl> I dont even believe in rationality
12:57:52 D<doru> Optimal then
12:58:01 G<ghost_girl> The concept of it
12:58:02 D<doru> Priorities
12:58:06 D<@desvoeuxensis> What do you believe in ghost_girl ?
12:58:14 G<ghost_girl> We would save cows?
12:58:22 Cos we eat them
12:58:22 D<@desvoeuxensis> cows are nice
12:59:15 So if there was an apocalyptic event the ghost_girl scenario would be to just select at random b/c all things are equal?
12:59:26 love for all, judgement for none
12:59:34 D<doru> 2012
12:59:44 G<ghost_girl> I wouldnt try to save anything
12:59:46 D<doru> They went for all the art first
12:59:57 Then the intelligentsia
13:00:25 Why, ghost_girl !
13:00:27 *?
13:00:40 G<ghost_girl> Because its all about to burn
13:00:43 D<@desvoeuxensis> I thought it was kinda interesting that Labyrinth decided he wanted the music to take animal form, because that implies that the apocalypse would preserve humans and animals.  Or that if humans were wiped out, music wasn't worth preserving anyway.
13:01:10 D<doru> Right
13:01:18 D<@desvoeuxensis> I mean an animal body isn't exactly the most safe form for a Cold War scenario apocalyptic event
13:01:31 G<ghost_girl> Heh yeah
13:01:32 D<doru> A bunker would probably do the job
13:01:47 ISS could try
13:01:49 D<@desvoeuxensis> Then the animals would turn radioactive and evolve anyway :P
13:02:05 C<chime> our government runs a bunker with information on a huge amount of art and history
13:02:08 D<@desvoeuxensis> well change anyway
13:02:08 D<doru> *grim laughter*
13:02:09 C<chime> on microfiche
13:02:22 D<@desvoeuxensis> Germany, our salvation
13:02:36 G<ghost_girl> Say a real apocalypse goes down
13:02:41 C<chime> i assume the us has something similar
13:02:59 kind of par for the course when making plans for nuclear war
13:03:07 D<doru> What is UNESCO doing?
13:03:28 D<@desvoeuxensis> Our microfiche just has Hollywood factoids
13:03:28 D<doru> chime, I would like to meet you one day
13:03:36 G<ghost_girl> How important is your cultural history or your favourite animals when youre going to gave to try to survive desperately for
13:03:43 Who knows how long
13:03:50 C<chime> why would you want to do such a thing :o
13:04:05 D<doru> Because I think it will be interesring
13:04:13 D<@desvoeuxensis> Yeah
13:04:15 D<doru> I interesting
13:04:30 D— @desvoeuxensis preserves chime for future generations.
13:04:32 D<doru> Not to alarm you
13:05:00 What are we saving all of this for?
13:05:08 (not chime)
13:05:11 But anything
13:05:13 C<chime> ghost_girl: i tend to think planning to preserve these things makes us feel better. we want something to survive of us
13:05:13 G<ghost_girl> Our emotions
13:05:20 Yeah
13:05:22 D<@desvoeuxensis> I guess the idea ghost_girl is that we never have any idea what scenario we will be in
13:05:29 D<doru> ^^
13:05:36 And we are afraid of the unknown
13:05:54 I like how the discussion spiralled into survivalism and preppers
13:06:08 Rather spiralled, in general
13:06:26 D<@desvoeuxensis> The preservation of music is pretty powerful.  There are a lot of historical examples of music being played in scenarios of despair and helping people survive.
13:07:14 As frivolous as art seems, it is much deeper and more impactful to us as a species, than we always internalize.
13:07:32 D<doru> Absolutely
13:07:41 G<ghost_girl> Well I'd know that from experience
13:07:49 D<@desvoeuxensis> That's one of the things that bothered me a bit about the way the story portrayed it as fragile - because often the best music springs out of periods of great hardship
13:07:54 G<ghost_girl> But I was thinking total apocalypse
13:08:34 Like
13:08:50 Your house is burning down right now
13:09:03 What do you grab as you run
13:09:08 → inex joined (sid203510@x.x)
13:09:11 C<chime> you know they put a record with some information about our history and culture on some of the deep space probes
13:09:13 D<@desvoeuxensis> lol
13:09:15 D<doru> Welcome inex
13:09:28 SETI, chime
13:09:29 D<@desvoeuxensis> My first thought was "good thing the cats can run by themselves" - so I guess I am like Labyrinth after all
13:09:31 hey inex :)
13:09:31 C<chime> and that's generally one of these feel-good stories that give people a warm feeling
13:09:33 G<ghost_girl> As a metaphor but also truly
13:09:36 I<inex> hey everyone
13:09:37 C<chime> hey inex
13:10:28 G<ghost_girl> Music is maybe the most important thing to me in some ways
13:10:45 But I still dont think I'd try to save my records
13:10:54 If my house was burning down
13:11:07 D<@desvoeuxensis> Yeah but would it be on your desert island scenario?
13:11:08 D<doru> I WANT to purge my collection every once in a while
13:11:17 And I do
13:11:19 C<chime> if you knew you were going to die, would you try to save anything?
13:11:31 G<ghost_girl> Die... No
13:11:32 D<@desvoeuxensis> I feel like having some music with me on a desert island would be more imperative to my survival than many other more practical seeming things
13:11:45 Definitely, chime
13:11:54 G<ghost_girl> On a dessert island, as much as possible
13:12:07 D<doru> Not beyond a message containing previously repressed feelings that I felt easy to express at that point
13:12:14 G<ghost_girl> Music, comics, books, film
13:12:19 D<@desvoeuxensis> I guess I'm kind of a believer in, even if we don't survive hopefully we created something that will be nice for someone else.
13:12:28 D<doru> Oh well
13:12:38 We're doing our best
13:12:41 D<@desvoeuxensis> To me art would be the thing to send out into the void.
13:12:49 G<ghost_girl> I dont think anything I've made is worth saving
13:12:50 D<@desvoeuxensis> It is us.
13:13:08 D<doru> Sorry des?
13:13:31 ghost_girl: Well in the larger context, individual things hardly are
13:13:37 Of anyone
13:14:17 C<chime> i don't think anything of me is worth saving either. but on the other hand i feel sad about it, because it seems to be a basic human desire to create some kind of meaning - even just a tiny thing left behind after death
13:14:34 D<@desvoeuxensis> Well in chime's example, of sending stuff out into space that might theoretically outlast our own species and reach other life forms, I think art is the more important inclusion than a story about our history.  Because I feel like something like music represents what humans are most truly.  Whether the other life form was able to understand it or not, it is us.
13:14:47 D<doru> Do you mean meaning for others,or for ourselves, chime?
13:15:13 Truly?
13:15:16 C<chime> it can be both, but maybe just for ourselves is the more important aspect
13:15:18 D<doru> Wouldn't it be just a. Subset?
13:15:29 I agree, chime
13:16:19 What/who do we live for?
13:17:15 D<@desvoeuxensis> Yeah, well as you say chime, maybe the act of preservation is more about giving ourselves comfort than it reaching any abstract goal.
13:17:48 Labyrinth would have been happy if he'd released the animals and they'd wandered off and he'd never really known for sure what happened.
13:17:55 D<doru> It is our collective being that is the source of our strength
13:18:03 Lol
13:18:06 D<@desvoeuxensis> He could have gone about inventing new silly machines imagining that perhaps they were out there saved
13:18:11 D<doru> Doesn't seem like he actually cared
13:18:14 D<@desvoeuxensis> Or at least there was a chance of it
13:18:22 D<doru> Just another lab rat
13:18:40 D<@desvoeuxensis> What do you mean he didn't care?
13:19:08 D<doru> He doesn't seem very serious about anything
13:19:21 Matter of fact, aimlessly doing stuff
13:19:58 D<@desvoeuxensis> Oh I think he seems quite serious.  He's very emotional when looking for the animals.
13:20:01 D<doru> A lack of gumption, perhaps
13:20:19 D<@desvoeuxensis> Yes certainly he lacks thoroughness and toughness.
13:20:41 D<doru> Weak character I would say
13:21:02 D<@desvoeuxensis> lmao - did you read the other Doc Labyrinth story HeatherRhodes linked?
13:21:02 D<doru> That's all, folks
13:21:10 (for me)
13:21:12 I haven't
13:21:16 Did you!
13:21:18 *?
13:21:26 How did you have the time?
13:22:00 D<@desvoeuxensis> Just the wiki entry: Doc Labyrinth invents a machine that animates inanimate objects .  He gives up right away thinking it didn't work.  But his friend puts a shoe in it and then the shoe comes back later and uses the machine to animate another shoe as its mate.
13:22:19 Apparently Dick likes this whole schtick where at the end of the story the invented object has its own agenda.
13:22:23 D<doru> I just read that too
13:22:24 D<@desvoeuxensis> I like his sense of humor.
13:22:30 D<doru> Hahahaha
13:22:41 D<@desvoeuxensis> Anyway, does anyone else have anything else to say?  Or shall we end discussion?
13:22:42 D<doru> Frankenstein-inspired, huh?
13:22:56 D<@desvoeuxensis> I think everyone has hit the mat.
13:23:03 D<doru> Or the sack
13:23:17 C<chime> it's too hot to keep thinking for too long :p
13:23:20 D<@desvoeuxensis> Thanks, HeatherRhodes for the story.  It was short but inspired a lot of discussion, which was a great combination.
13:23:49 I feel inspired to read more Dick short stories.
13:23:51 D<doru> Thank you, HeatherRhodes - I did not anticipate all this fine discussion.
13:25:20 G<ghost_girl> Good chat y'awl
13:25:30 D<doru> Drawl
13:25:33 D<@desvoeuxensis> *********************
13:25:33 ** END OF BOOKCLUB **
13:25:33 *********************