* Now talking on #tutorialbus
* irc.rizon.sexy sets mode +n on #tutorialbus
* irc.rizon.sexy sets mode +t on #tutorialbus
* #tutorialbus :No topic is set.
* Iamgoofball has changed the topic to: set be
* Iamgoofball has changed the topic to: DISCUSSION TOPIC #1: Where players come from?
* Liggerknocker (cgiirc@Rizon-6BE8D5EF.dyn.grandenetworks.net) has joined
* Sweaterkittens|Work (~Sweaterki@Rizon-4AFDD496.wilshiresurgerycenter.com) has joined
* JJRcop (~Jon@just.a.coder.for.fun) has joined
* incoming (Mibbit@Rizon-1AC3170E.ri.ri.cox.net) has joined
<JJRcop> ass
<Iamgoofball> now we need to do this in order
* Haevacht (~Haevacht@Rizon-18191995.lnse5.cht.bigpond.net.au) has joined
<Haevacht> but i will lurk
<Iamgoofball> so we don't go off the rails(tm)
<Iamgoofball> so
<Iamgoofball> first topic:
<Iamgoofball> players: where do they come from and how do they get here
* Cheridan (~chatzilla@D10F5597.D8D78F72.AE5BA277.IP) has joined
<Sweaterkittens|Work> goofball encouraging structured discussion? What twilight zone episode did I stumble into?
<Liggerknocker> Myself, I was told funny-ass stories by an old admin, and I was curious. I read the wiki for over a year, I ghosted a shitload, and then tried playing.
<Sweaterkittens|Work> But seriously, I woudl assume a button ont he main menu, below setup character
<Sweaterkittens|Work> Or wait, do you mean getting new players in general?
<Iamgoofball> yes
<JJRcop> youtube, news articles, friends saying "hey check this game out"
<Iamgoofball> let's say I'm Bob Joe
<Liggerknocker> Well, Goof has been improving AFAICT. Actually fixing their code and then this. Thank you, Goof.
<Iamgoofball> where do I hear the word SS13
<Liggerknocker> From a friend in a chatroom.
<JJRcop> we do get news articles occasionally
<Sweaterkittens|Work> Friends or youtube let's play type things, usually
<Sweaterkittens|Work> A friend watching a let's play is how I found out
<Iamgoofball> word of mouth is our current primary spread method, then, by consensus?
<incoming> we, by complete accident, have a mild social media presence, not tg specifically but just friends of friends stuff
<Liggerknocker> Hell, that old admin I was talking about?
<incoming> hell that's part of what I hope the poly twitter can eventually do
<Liggerknocker> I know two other players on tgservers from the same RPGs we were playing with that guy as a DM.
<Sweaterkittens|Work> Yeah, word of mouth is by far the way we get brand new players. Not counting server churn
<JJRcop> also devs make their games and say "hey this thing was inspired a bit by SS13 honk robust singulo go check it out"
<Iamgoofball> alright, so we've got that ironed out
<Iamgoofball> now, next on the agenda
<Iamgoofball> what are the problems new players face
<incoming> everyone is too good
<Liggerknocker> The lack of intuitive interface.
* Iamgoofball has changed the topic to: DISCUSSION TOPIC #2: What problems do new players face?
<incoming> we are hyper robust and kill 100%
<JJRcop> big interface with no help or info tips whatsoever
<Sweaterkittens|Work> The interface and the lack of direction without a wiki page open
<incoming> it's a brick wall of a curve somtimes
<Liggerknocker> that can't be helped as such, but a tutorial system can go a long way.
<Sweaterkittens|Work> Everything is very unintuitive
<Sweaterkittens|Work> And very hard initially
<Sweaterkittens|Work> I think the fact that everyone is better than you is part of the game, and can't really be helped as a new player. it's something you sort of expect getting into any sort of competitive game at first
<incoming> It's part of the game, but it's also a good way to chase people off
<Cheridan> most systems we have are honestly rather forgiving
<incoming> if your first round was "I stepped off the shuttle and was dead within three minutes" there's a decent chance that person leaves 5ever
<Liggerknocker> I think a tutorial server would go well for it. Max of 20 rounds, respawns allowed, normal game w/o antags unless you're whitelisted.
<incoming> and that can't be helped completely
<JJRcop> also aside from the interface nothing else tells you what to do either, we kinda expect people to know stuff already as developers of the game and we don't even write wiki pages all the time
<incoming> but yet
<Cheridan> the big ones are the medical system and the engine setups
<incoming> and everyone's first wizard round
<Liggerknocker> Yeah.
<incoming> which inevitably ends in tears
<Iamgoofball> alright, so our primary issues generally speaking is Interface Problems, complex skill curve to rival any quantum physicist?
<incoming> and that's ok
<Liggerknocker> That sounds about right, Goof.
<Iamgoofball> also obtuse game mechanics
<Iamgoofball> writing this down gimme a second
<Sweaterkittens|Work> Yeah, which can be solved over time, but for the time and foreseeable future are just part of SS13
<Iamgoofball> alright
<Liggerknocker> I'm OK with antag roles being hard to handle at first. To me they're a necessity, and shouldn't be the goal for a healthy playerbase.
<Sweaterkittens|Work> new shit we add can be made to be as intuitive as possible (see: clock cult, which is hard as hell but overall very informative with tooltips and descriptions)
<Cheridan> there's no way to know by just working it out how the singulo engine works, and if you fuck up you either die or you kill the whole station
<Cheridan> incompetent doctors can OD people on things really easily
<incoming> well yes setting up the engineer is a literal meme
<incoming> you have to gain it from someone else
<Sweaterkittens|Work> Luckily sleepers won't OD people at first so they have a chance to learn at roundstart
<incoming> which is nice, when it works
<Sweaterkittens|Work> and most new MD's aren't going to use the bottles and syringes
<Liggerknocker> This is why I suggest a whitelist for good players to keep coming back to the newbie server, to show them.
<Cheridan> mentors or something?
<Iamgoofball> Liggerknocker, we'll touch on that in a few discussion points
<Liggerknocker> OK.
* MrPerson (~MrPerson@Rizon-B57D4536.sd.sd.cox.net) has joined
<Iamgoofball> a mentor system would be easily implementable
<incoming> but would people actually do it
<Liggerknocker> Preferably in a less-chaotic environment.
<JJRcop> what about an IC mentor system too
<JJRcop> like
<Liggerknocker> I actually would do it.
<Liggerknocker> I actually have tried doing it.
<JJRcop> you can be a player character, go to dorms or something, pull out your PDA and connect to the mentor network
<Iamgoofball> now, I'm torn on the next topic, do we go for analyzing the community response and new players integrating, or do we analyze the game mechanics and interface issues?
<JJRcop> latter
<incoming> that's a barrier to entry JJ
<Liggerknocker> I'd say the biggest challenge is the community response, personally speaking.
<Sweaterkittens|Work> My vote is for the latter. The community response is something that's sort of an administrative issue and I do my best to deal with when I see it
<Cheridan> yeah i think we need to settle issues that new players are gonna face before we go and get them
<JJRcop> incoming i mean the mentors do it
<Sweaterkittens|Work> people are always going to be elitist shitheads
<JJRcop> so you can still play the game while mentoring someone
<Sweaterkittens|Work> The only thing you can do is reel it in when it gets too far
<Iamgoofball> alright, so mechanics and interface
<Liggerknocker> I still think a calm environment for newbies would be best, but that's a little offtopic.
<Sweaterkittens|Work> Yeah we can cross that bridge when we get there
* Iamgoofball has changed the topic to: DISCUSSION TOPIC #3: Obtuse Mechanics and Weird Interfaces, what are some specifics and how can we improve?
<JJRcop> I think we rely on the wiki way too much
<Liggerknocker> Oh god, where to even start. I'm still learning keyboard hotkeys.
<Iamgoofball> so far some listed examples are Medical and Engines
<Liggerknocker> Like, how the heck do you get people on a table to operate on them.
<Sweaterkittens|Work> I think the most important part of this is that the interface is not changing any time in the foreseeable future. So we have to find a way to help integrate new players and teach them that sort of thing, since we can't change it
<Cheridan> the supermatter's a lot better than the current engines. if you mess up there's a period where you can unfuck it
<incoming> wiring the solars is basically the engineering self guided tutorial right now
<MrPerson> I think it would be faster to list mechanics that AREN'T obtuse
<Sweaterkittens|Work> Hahaha
<Liggerknocker> Moving?
<incoming> not even
<MrPerson> Ok yeah moving
<incoming> thanks to the walk run button
<JJRcop> um, nutrients?
<Sweaterkittens|Work> Fuckin seriously. At least it's a hotkey now too
<incoming> intents in general are kind of fucked
<MrPerson> 13 years and we've got moving down ok
* Sweaterkittens|Work throws confetti
<Sweaterkittens|Work> We did it reddit
<Liggerknocker> That one was a little obtuse to me, eating at least.
<incoming> two are critical, two are extremely situational
<incoming> and most of harm you can do on help too
<incoming> like
<incoming> it wouldn't be too too hard
<incoming> to juts
<Sweaterkittens|Work> I'd like to propose that a tutorial walks you through the basics and purposefully hits some of these particularly unintuitive points
<incoming> get rid of them
<Iamgoofball> MrPerson, fair point, but if we can identify the big ones we might be able to get some extra stuff
<JJRcop> Sweaterkittens|Work, that's a later topic
<Cheridan> yeah when my gf was playing and she would need to attack someone she'd set intent to harm even if she was hitting with a weapon
<Liggerknocker> Eating, dragging and moving objects and people, switching hands, switching intents, examining, alt-clicks, etc,
<Sweaterkittens|Work> Oh, I thought we were discussing how we'd handle new players dealing witht he interface
<Sweaterkittens|Work> are we talking about how we can fix the interface and mechanics right now?
<MrPerson> I think making a tutorial would be great just because the poor shmuck who makes it would go "ok, do this and that, and oh this is retarded" and we'll all go "oh yeah that IS retarded"
<Sweaterkittens|Work> hahah
<incoming> here's the problem with tutorials: they get outdated
<Liggerknocker> More just a tutorial to show them how it's done, I think, Sweaterkittens.
<incoming> so either they need to be very generalized
<incoming> or they need to be kept current
<JJRcop> incoming, we can as a codebase require that people update the tutorial if they change anything or no merge
<MrPerson> I'm ok with it being general and just saying "and to learn more, ask people in game or in ooc"
<Sweaterkittens|Work> I agree with MrP here.
<Iamgoofball> we're going a bit off topic here with the specifics of a tutorial
<MrPerson> I mean we already have the hints
<Sweaterkittens|Work> It just needs to cover the basics to play the game
<Liggerknocker> Generally, I think the basics for doing anything should cover the tutorial bit.
<Iamgoofball> we gotta stay structured here
<Cheridan> intents in general are a concept that doesn't exist in any other game
<Iamgoofball> but intents chat is good
<Iamgoofball> focus on that for a bit
<JJRcop> Do we have too many intents?
<incoming> I played one other game with intents and it was a real bad time
<Liggerknocker> I'm talking about just the plain basic 'how to eat, move, grab and drag, open stuff, how intents change all this,' etc.
<Sweaterkittens|Work> I think we're not clear on exactly what we're discussing here. I mean we all agree that the interface is shit and a lot of things don't make sense
<Iamgoofball> mm, right
<MrPerson> well for what it's worth, the ss14 guys were gonna get rid of grab and disarm and stick with help/harm only
<Sweaterkittens|Work> Are we talking about how to fix that?
<JJRcop> Sweaterkittens|Work, DISCUSSION TOPIC #3: Obtuse Mechanics and Weird Interfaces, what are some specifics and how can we improve?
<Iamgoofball> wait i'm a dumbo
<Sweaterkittens|Work> I SEE THAT
<Iamgoofball> alright I need to bail for a bit
<Iamgoofball> someone take op
<incoming> Oh fuck
* Iamgoofball gives channel operator status to Cheridan
<Iamgoofball> brb
<Iamgoofball> keep discussion going
<Liggerknocker> I thought a plain ol' tutorial on the interface could help a ton.
<JJRcop> MrPerson, how could we have grabs without the grab intent, ctrl click?
<MrPerson> The same way you do grabs now
<Sweaterkittens|Work> That'd probably work
<Iamgoofball> next topic we should hit, we've ID'd that Intents, Inventory Management, and non-verbal interaction between players are our key bits
<Sweaterkittens|Work> since pulling is now grabbing anyway
<MrPerson> thanks phil
<Iamgoofball> god bless phil
<Sweaterkittens|Work> Yeah we could probably just remove disarm and grab and we'd be fine at this point
<JJRcop> oh god my identity system is going to make this worse ._.
<MrPerson> Is someone keeping a log or something because I missed the beginning
<JJRcop> :(
<Iamgoofball> Cheridan, please keep this updated if/when you change the topic: http://pastebin.com/wLUSWt2Q
<Iamgoofball> MrPerson, i'm logging the discussion currently
* Iamgoofball sets mode -r on Iamgoofball
* You are now known as iamgoofballaway
<incoming> I think the general seniment is that while the core of the game can't be changed realistically explaining more stuff could definitely do a lot
<JJRcop> okay now disarm
<incoming> like as an example
<Haevacht> dungeon over did v good what's going on in this thread
<incoming> our prefferences stuff is a huge mess
<MrPerson> *citation needed
<incoming> a player gets like