seaking nom w/ jklioe

18:09] jklioe: would you agree with a seaking rise?
[18:10] +5gen: would have to really think about it but as of now I'd lean B- still
[18:10] jklioe: ah, what makes you feel that way?
[18:11] jklioe: also i can see rose potentially rising but i'll admit that i'm really biased on that one lol
[18:12] +5gen: its niche is generally limited to countering frostom and although it can do stuff outside of that, idt they are big enough to warrant a rise
[18:12] jklioe: well its utility has a purpose in disrupting some defensive pokemon, honestly having access to knock off and being able to use it comfortably is such a valuable trait in this meta
[18:13] jklioe: when you look at prominent threats like mareanie, bronzor, or even tangela
[18:14] jklioe: and having room for protect can allows for some applications
[18:14] jklioe: but yeah, admittedly this is largely about countering frostom, but honestly that's such a huge trait since teams otherwise can struggle to consistently check frostom without having to force 50-50s
[18:14] +5gen: knock is a great tool no doubt
[18:15] +5gen: but it becomes somewhat passive w/o protect+toxic or going offensive (which has its drawbacks since frostom will chip it down)
[18:16] jklioe: well, it does have its ways of offsetting that between protect adding extra turns of elftovers an the option of running icium z
[18:17] jklioe: and seaking is one of the harder pokemon for rotom to attempt to trick as a means of having a way to deal with it being walled thanks to those two frequent options
[18:20] +5gen: yeah like whenever seaking comes into vr talk
[18:21] +5gen: the main question is whether or not countering rotom-frost makes it worth rising further
[18:21] +5gen: it's a pretty explored Pokemon in terms of its sets so
[18:22] jklioe: well, it's the best and most splashable pokemon in the tier
[18:22] jklioe: and arguably among the biggest offensive threat to many teams
[18:22] jklioe: so there's a lot of value in drastically hindering its effectiveness at team preview
[18:22] +5gen: for me personally i see it as, is the meta that hard pressed for rotom-f answers that seaking should rise to from B- to B
[18:23] jklioe: almost to the point where that pokemon can be seen a a borderline staple
[18:24] jklioe: and seaking isn't that bad outside of that, yea it's tis main niche, but it's also checking zeb and rapidash, two fast offensive threats that threaten a low of slower bulky cores due to their speed and coverage, evire, popular scarfer
[18:24] jklioe: and knock off alone lets it blanket check certain defenive pokemon
[18:25] jklioe: so i would disagree with the approach of "well this is only relevant for rotom"
[18:26] jklioe: and while it's passive, there exists a limit in which one can punish its passivity, especially when compared to bronzor or even mareanie
[18:26] jklioe: two defensive pokemon that are being considered for moving up
[18:26] jklioe: due to scald being scald, knock off crippling stuff, toxic, etc
[18:27] jklioe: so yeah i'm think of it
[18:27] +5gen: like i said at the start i'd have to really think about it
[18:27] jklioe: on those perspectives
[18:27] +5gen: and you bring up a lot of good points
[18:27] jklioe: yeah i just wanted to explain my position really
[18:28] jklioe: i don't mean to come across as aggressively pushing my views in or antying like that
[18:28] +5gen: nah it's not coming off that way
[18:29] +5gen: so now
[18:29] +5gen: this is how i'm interpreting it
[18:29] +5gen: B- is a reflection of Seaking being a counter to frostom
[18:30] +5gen: a rise to B would reflect how the meta around seaking makes it better than just covering frostom
[18:30] +5gen: because in the rank it's at now we take into account how it counters electric types and checks rapidash
[18:31] jklioe: well, i guess this is less relevant, but when i look at some other b- pokemon, it's debatable whether some of their niches are even comparable to consistently countering the best mon in the tier and the most consistently threatening to zu teams
[18:31] jklioe: so there's that feeling too from me
[18:31] +5gen: but with rapidash getting better and defensive measures being more susceptible to knock/toxic/scald
[18:31] +5gen: yeah that's a strong point
[18:32] +5gen: most really don't have a niche or niches that equate to seaking's
[18:33] jklioe: it's hard to believe that a pokemon with a niche like that should be agreed to have the same ranking as pokemon like Onix, Murkruow, Jumpluff, stuf flike that
[18:33] jklioe: so i would think about that too