faygoToday at 10:09 AM
this is a safe pettiness zone right
trish.Today at 10:10 AM
yes
faygoToday at 10:10 AM
grumbles in """het"""
oh wait let me fix that
trish.Today at 10:10 AM
??
what happen
faygoToday at 10:10 AM
nnnnnnnnnnnh i'm
joly saying 'ok het'
really rubbed me the wrong way
because it almost feels like it's being used in the sense of a pejorative
maybe it's just 'cause she's so PA about everything idk
but it sent some really 'yikes' vibes if i'm being honest
trish.Today at 10:13 AM
okay you gotta realize that it has nothing to do with you, joly (and myself) realize that not every heterosexual man is that way. I say shit like that too. "I hate men", I don't actually hate men at all it's just a snarky blanket statement.
a bit of tongue in cheek humor when we see shit that makes us roll our eyes
faygoToday at 10:13 AM
no, it's not because it has anything to do with me in specific, i'm just really leery about that kinda thing?? and with you, at least, i know that you're usually just being snarky.
but with her, it's hard to tell when it's snark or genuine disdain.
blanket statements as a whole, ironically enough, really put me off already.
but when it's got that sort of atmosphere to it, it really puts me on edge.
trish.Today at 10:14 AM
it's a mixture of both. i told someone once that I will never 100% trust any straight man, and it's because I've been hurt by too many and no one wears a sign that lets me know if they're my next abuser or not, you know? those blanket statements are pulled from a place of personal experience and trauma.
and while it sucks, as a woman it's a defense we have to put into place
faygoToday at 10:15 AM
but at the same time, hearing that from someone that's at the very least bi(?), couldn't the same be said about any potential partner, regardless of gender or orientation?
hell, it's not like 'het'/'cishet' is even explicitly slanted towards being male or female either way.
trish.Today at 10:16 AM
yes, but statistically speaking the biggest threat to any woman is men. Like I'm not BSing that. You pull the figures and men are the biggest danger to women.
men are the leading cause of death for women I'm not even joking.
faygoToday at 10:17 AM
no, i know you're not.
trish.Today at 10:17 AM
so when we say shit like that, please don't take it personal. it's just us coping with trauma and the bitterness of it and making humor of how fucking scary it is out here as a woman.
faygoToday at 10:19 AM
i dunno. i guess it's a bit of naivete on my part, but i always feel kinda iffy about the statistics of anything gender or race related. i suppose that's because generally speaking, i've always sort of rationaled it as 'regardless of gender, we're all humans'. so when i see 'men are the biggest threat to women', perhaps incorrectly so, but my first thought is always instead 'people are the biggest threat to other people'.
trish.Today at 10:19 AM
yeah, that's because those statistics don't routinely hurt you.
you're able to view it from that angle because you come from a place of privilege.
you don't fear being murdered for turning down someone for a date.
faygoToday at 10:21 AM
i don't think it's even a matter of whether or not the statistics hurt me, because even if they don't, they definitely still affect me. it's more...
just how i was raised?
like, my folks always put a lot of emphasis on looking past race and gender and focusing on the fact that at the end of the day, we're all people.
trish.Today at 10:22 AM
And that is great. We're all people. But not everyone is created equal in society's eyes, and that is a hard truth. YOU can look past those things, but that doesn't mean everyone else will.
faygoToday at 10:23 AM
which, like i said, could be interpreted as a certain naivete on my part. :p
trish.Today at 10:24 AM
It is definitely naivety coming from a place of privilege. the things I deal with on a daily basis as a woman are things you'll never have to face. You're valid to dislike it and feel it is unfair, but I encourage you to look into it more and really think about it.
faygoToday at 10:24 AM
is it privilege, though?
like, that's not supposed to be smartassy.
trish.Today at 10:24 AM
it doesn't matter that we are all human, when the biggest threat to my life is a specific demographic then guess what
faygoToday at 10:24 AM
i'm genuinely curious as to if it is or not, since it's a perspective based in the morals i was taught, not the sex i was born with.
naivete? sure. i'm just sort of shaky on if the reasoning behind it counts as privilege or just the benefit of being open-minded to the perspective that at the end of the day we're all kinda ... the same.
and don't get me wrong, i'm not trying to be overtly argumentative or insensitive or anything. i'm genuinely trying to get a better grip on it, and you seem to have a lot of knowledge to impart from your own pretty unique and informed perspective on the situation.
trish.Today at 10:27 AM
It is privilege, once again. You will never deal with the "glass ceiling". You don't walk outside at night and wonder if you're going to be pulled into an alley and raped. When a man walks behind you on an otherwise empty street you don't reach into your pocket to hold your keys a certain way in case he plans to assault you. You don't have to travel to the bathroom in groups for protection. You don't bond with your other male friends over being sexually assaulted.
faygoToday at 10:28 AM
Honestly? Me, at least?
Everything except the bathroom example?
I have some level of experience with most of those.
The last one rubs me a bit weird because men already get more shit than woman about admitting they were sexually assaulted, which I'm sure you're aware of.
The glass ceiling, though, is a valid point to raise.
trish.Today at 10:29 AM
Listen Sammy. No one is diminishing what men go through, but you're being purposefully obtuse here. You know exactly what I'm saying. You know that women are far more likely to be victims of violence to men.
You know what toxic masculinity is.
faygoToday at 10:30 AM
Oh, no, yeah. I'm well aware of the statistics, that's what I've been trying to hit home.
I'm really not trying to be obtuse. :( I guess I'm just ... I dunno.
trish.Today at 10:30 AM
You know what male privilege is. Men go through shit, yes, but my every other day is another woman on the news murdered for trying to leave her boyfriend or telling that guy at the bar no or not answering a text.
faygoToday at 10:30 AM
And I'm not denying any of that.
Nor am I trying to diminish what anyone goes through.
Because it's all awful.
Because we're all people treating other people like shit. And I guess I just ... don't understand why.
trish.Today at 10:31 AM
So to tell me "but we're all human!!" seems very... insensitive of the subject. We're all human, but when the biggest threat to my life is men, I'm going to treat all men as a threat until proven otherwise.
If you see a snake, and you don't know if that snake is poisonous are not, are you going to go up and touch it?
faygoToday at 10:32 AM
Not gonna lie, any honest answer I myself could give to that specific analogy would seem really smart-assy and that's not at all the intent I'm going for here, so...
Maybe.
Here, let me rephrase my point a bit.
I guess what I just don't understand is, alright, it's a protective measure.
And that's valid!
That's absolutely valid and I can honestly say there's nothing to that I could ever hold against you.
You've had a lot of shitty things happen to you. Not denying that, nor would I ever hope to try and diminish or remove the significance of that fact.
But on the whole, I guess it just kinda feels like breaking it up into specific demographics reinforces the division between one another socially speaking instead of doing much to maybe ... fix it?
And I don't mean on, like. An individual level.
Because that's rooted in personal experience, which is subjective by its very nature.
trish.Today at 10:35 AM
Woah. What the hell are you meaning, 'fix it'?
It's not on women to fix toxic masculinity. We deal with enough trauma.
faygoToday at 10:35 AM
Nope.
Not what I meant.
Movin' waaaaaaaaay beyond toxic masculinity with this.
trish.Today at 10:36 AM
I'm sorry, but until every single one of your friends has a story about being assaulted, raped, or terrified for their life by one specific demographic, you dont get to tell us how we should cope with our trauma.
faygoToday at 10:36 AM
I'm not.
Like I said, this isn't on an individual level.
I mean, yeah, I'm leery of the whole 'cishet' thing. Sure. But more than anything, my frustration stems from the fact that doing that kinda thing seems to create more tension than anything else.
On both sides, too! This isn't exclusive to any one side of things.
trish.Today at 10:37 AM
it doesn't create tension, it just makes you uncomfortable.
like that's the bottom line of it. people get pissed off because marginalized demographics aren't just quietly taking shit anymore.
faygoToday at 10:37 AM
That's not it at all???
Man, I'm glad nobody's taking shit.
I wouldn't expect them to.
Look. I'm an old-fashioned kinda 'flower power' dude, yeah? Peace, love, everyone's equal at the heart of it.
When people that are marginalized are treated like crap?
That pisses me off! Because it's wrong!
So that's not where I'm coming from on this at all.
And if that's how I've come off, then I apologize.
trish.Today at 10:39 AM
That's a fantasy outlook that you get to live in because you aren't marginalized. women, minorities, we have never been equal at the heart of it. there is a long history of oppression and violence against us.
that is our lived experience.
faygoToday at 10:40 AM
So what about all the women in the '60s that followed along with that same outlook?
Or all of the people of color back then that followed along with that same outlook?
Is it fantasy? Sure! Fuck it, sure!
trish.Today at 10:40 AM
You mean the outlook that ultimately failed and saw a culture of drug abuse and overdoses?
faygoToday at 10:41 AM
Because of a lack of understanding of what substance was doing to their brains and bodies?
I won't deny that drugs were integral to the hippie movement. But to say that they're inseparable is pretty off-mark.
The ideals of equality and peace and love don't need fuckin' dope to be appreciated.
trish.Today at 10:41 AM
You hit on the head. Lack of fucking understanding. People have more access to knowledge than ever before and are realizing their experiences aren't isolated.
Those ideals just aren't real life.
faygoToday at 10:42 AM
What ideals are??
trish.Today at 10:42 AM
I'm glad you get to live in a world where you can believe that but I don't. I don't even know what you're trying to argue here anymore.
Like is the point just to tell me that we shouldn't be allowed to say "fuck men" because "everyone is equal"?
faygoToday at 10:44 AM
Right now, I'm not even trying to argue anything! I'm trying to understand, and maybe this is something you don't know the answer to either, why everything we fucking do to try and make the world a happier, more peaceful place just ends up with people feeling more and more divided and stigmatized!
Because no matter what, apparently, the statistics end up causing more and more tension between the demographics involved in them, at least on a public level!
So what's the solution??
I don't know!
trish.Today at 10:45 AM
It's not the statistics that are causing the issues.
The statistics are just the paper version of the hard facts.
Those things existed long before anyone calculated numbers.
faygoToday at 10:46 AM
But then you have people getting up in arms about crime statistics, too!
I'm not trying to personally accuse you of anything or make this an argument, I'm just.
I don't know.
Frustrated.
Maybe, yeah, I'm living in a fucking fantasy.
I just don't understand why the world is like it is, I guess.
I don't understand why the demographics need to be slanted the way they do.
I don't understand why toxic masculinity exists.
I don't understand why no matter what, someone gets stigmatized.
trish.Today at 10:48 AM
Sammy, you're talking circles around me, and you get to come from a place in this where at the end of it you get to walk away without any of the worries I live with on a daily basis. You will never have my lived experience or the lived experience of other minorities, you are in the demographic most favored by America and the western world over. At the end of the day idealism is just a fantasy. Things will never be the way you want them to be. These trends have existed for thousands of years.
You don't live with someone trying to take away your rights every single day. I do. No one is making laws that say what you can and can't do with your own body, but I have politicians telling me that abortion should be illegal because "women's bodies have a way of shutting down to prevent pregnancy during rape"
That is my reality. My reality takes precedence over idealism, and I'm sorry.
faygoToday at 10:50 AM
I just don't get why that has to be reality, man.
It's bullshit.
trish.Today at 10:50 AM
Texas tried to introduce a bill to fucking KILL women who had abortions.
faygoToday at 10:50 AM
I understand that it is the reality.
trish.Today at 10:50 AM
they wanted the death penalty for us.
faygoToday at 10:50 AM
But I just don't know why.
Why can't these people see that it's wrong?
trish.Today at 10:50 AM
I cry daily over the shit that we as women go through, and at the hands of men. Male politicians or the random guy at the bar who didn't like it when I told him not to grope me.
So when I say "fuck men", that is what I'm talking about.
And if some man that will never experience that gets his feefees hurt
I really don't give a damn.
faygoToday at 10:51 AM
Fuck my FEELINGS, man!
trish.Today at 10:52 AM
this whole thing started because you didn't like joly saying "hets"
faygoToday at 10:52 AM
At the worst, what I was griping about w/ Joly was because when it stops becoming snark and becomes genuine disdain, that's when the divides get wider.
But right now? What we're talking about?
Yeah!
Shit's WRONG!
And I don't fucking know WHY it's wrong.
And I don't know why this has to BE that reality you and so many people live.
It's bullshit, man.
It's fucking bullshit.
trish.Today at 10:53 AM
it is. it fucking sucks.
but it's not getting any better, so I have to protect myself how I can.
faygoToday at 10:53 AM
I just.
I don't know.
I guess I'm just trying to find solutions for a society that seems intent on splitting itself up more and more.
Maybe that's stupid. Impossible. I don't know.
We've already made such progress, I guess I just hate the thought that this is how things just ... statistically are gonna be.
I hate that this could be where it all stops.
Because things just seem to be getting worse.
People more and more polarized and divided.
trish.Today at 10:55 AM
The split has always been there, but you are part of a demographic that was never affected by it. So now that people are calling attention to it, you feel like things are getting worse. The same can be said about the divide between white and black. The divide was always there, but it never negatively affected white people so they got to ignore it.
faygoToday at 10:55 AM
But I've always been conscious of this.
This is stuff I was raised to know about.
trish.Today at 10:55 AM
Conscious, but not personally affected.
faygoToday at 10:55 AM
But even then, I can still see things aren't getting better.
trish.Today at 10:55 AM
Being aware of something and experiencing something are very different things.
faygoToday at 10:55 AM
Am I wrong in that observation, though?
trish.Today at 10:57 AM
Things are getting better in their own ways. For the minorities that are speaking up, things are getting better. The MeToo movement outted a lot of powerful predators and made real changes come to major industries, for example. The fact that women are no longer being silent about wage gaps has seen new laws come into place.The only reason people feel like things are "worse" is because they're being forced to face facts that they could conveniently ignore or push to the back of their mind before now.
sometimes change is uncomfortable sammy.
faygoToday at 10:57 AM
It's not that, though.
It's not the facts being made concrete or more widespread that's got me feeling like this.
trish.Today at 10:58 AM
Then I guess I just don't understand.
faygoToday at 10:58 AM
It's that even though they're being made concrete and more widespread, people seem more divided and split by it than ever.
trish.Today at 10:58 AM
You're very determined not to budge on this so idk what to say anymore.
faygoToday at 10:59 AM
I'm determined to not budge on the stance that what's happening is wrong and it just seems like for all the steps we've taken as a society towards fixing the wrongs against minorities, it's just.
Making the people working against them all the more determined to put them down.
And I suppose that's why I feel like it's just getting worse.
trish.Today at 10:59 AM
yeah, it is. it's making them more determined because their little way of life on their high stool is being threatened
and they're scared
and they should be
we're not here to hold hands with our oppressors.
we've tried that.
we've played nice
now we're being loud and it makes them uncomfy because they dont want to not be racist, or not be sexist
not be homophobic or transphobic
and it makes them uncomfy that minorities who used to just shut up and take it no longer are :shrug:
faygoToday at 11:01 AM
And you're right. They should be scared. But their fear and determination and bigoted bullshit is spreading to the close-minded people that aren't in power, but are right alongside us. It's a disease, and it feels like being nice, being hostile, being quiet, being loud ... it just seems to end the same. No matter what.
Yeah, there've always been bigots in the populace. But with the advent of communication, it's become so much easier to spread their own fucked-up close-minded cockfuckery.
trish.Today at 11:01 AM
idk what you want me to say. I'm not going to tell you that things are getting worse and that people should just "calm down" or "be nicer" after hundreds of years of being oppressed.
faygoToday at 11:02 AM
Man, I don't even know what I want you to say, since I'm pretty sure we agree on that second half there.
I'm just.
Sad.
And frustrated.
Because it's shitty.
Not even from the perspective of a white male, but from the perspective of someone whose heart aches for other people ... it's all so wrong.
At this point, I guess I'm just venting. I don't know.
trish.Today at 11:03 AM
the only people that things are getting "worse" for are the bigots who no longer get to turn a blind eye and keep oppressing people they don't agree with.
and that's just a fact.
faygoToday at 11:04 AM
I suppose by 'worse' I just mean ... the social climate in general. Because you're right, things ARE getting properly worse for the assholes who can't get away with being secluded fucks anymore.
trish.Today at 11:04 AM
on that note, im going to step away. this conversation has been very taxing on me, because it is emotionally exhausting to have to explain over and over again why I'm entitled to feel the way I do and to explain the trauma that women go through daily.
faygoToday at 11:04 AM
And I'm sorry. That wasn't something I meant to seem ignorant to.
I'm just ... I hate that it all even has to be an issue.
trish.Today at 11:05 AM
so do i sammy. and im the one between the two of us who has to live it every day.
im so tired of "not all men" rhetoric because it really is all men. it's every man who hears their friend making a sexist joke and stays quiet. it's every man who doesn't speak up about things but thinks he's a "good one" because he doesn't actively harass women, but who still turns a blind eye when his bros cat call or make comments about a girl's ass
men dont wear signs that say "i'm not going to kill you if you turn me down"
so for me, it's all men
faygoToday at 11:07 AM
And that's not something I ever intended to invalidate or diminish. It's the simple fact of how you live, and it's fucking horrid.
All of what I just went off about wasn't meant to be from the standpoint of me trying to put down or minimize the very real problems and quite frankly morally fucked situation that just seems to be the 'norm' these days.
trish.Today at 11:09 AM
sammy i love you to death but this entire conversation went south the moment you said "we're all humans!!" because it is honestly the most insensitive thing to say.
that kind of statement you made, to paraphrase, "i don't like that statistic because humans are just shitty to humans!!" was just, very insensitive and very offputting.
It felt very much like minimalizing.
faygoToday at 11:11 AM
It was meant to be the exact opposite, but I can see why that might not have been apparent without knowing how severely I feel about human suffering on the whole.
trish.Today at 11:11 AM
we're all humans but that doesn't change the fact that some humans are treated worse for existing in their own skin and nothing more
faygoToday at 11:11 AM
And that's what I don't get.
Because we're all humans.
It's fucking idiotic and wrong.
trish.Today at 11:12 AM
yep. we are. but that doesn't fucking matter and never has on this planet.
faygoToday at 11:12 AM
I just wish it did.
That's all I ever wished, man
And I guess I'm hoping someday it will.
trish.Today at 11:12 AM
I'd love to be treated like a human being but I have less autonomy over my body than a god damn corpse.
faygoToday at 11:12 AM
It's fucked, man.
It's all fucked.