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	N3r0		who are anon, and what is anon?
	joepie91	anon is anon
	joepie91	litterly
20:41	joepie91	so, who says he's anon and really believes he is
20:42	N3r0	then why does media always say that anon is a group of individuals fighting the government?
20:42	joepie91	because the media can't deal with something like anon
20:42	joepie91	and something like 'a group of individuals fighting the government' sounds a lot more spectacular
20:42	joepie91	and sells better
20:42	N3r0	agree too that
20:42	joepie91	that the media says something, doesn't make it true :0
20:42	joepie91	*
20:42	joepie91	in fact, the media is more often wrong than right about things
20:43	joepie91	(not just anon)
20:43	N3r0	know that as well. they often don't look into a story
20:43	N3r0	Can you tell me what the goals of lulzsec and antisec are?
20:44	joepie91	lulzsec was basically 'doing it for the lulz', as far as I know
20:44	joepie91	literally
20:44	N3r0	so they did it for fun?
20:45	joepie91	to my knowledge there was not really an 'activist agenda', even if it collided sometimes
20:45	joepie91	yes, basically
20:45	joepie91	antisec is more activist-oriented
20:46	N3r0	ok. i've been talking to other guys calling themself web ninjas. they say joepie91 (or 92 sometimes) have strong connections to lulzsec.
20:47	N3r0	but after the arrests in UK they went back to other groups in anon. calling them self antiSec.
20:47	joepie91	web ninjas is a bunch of morons, tbh
20:48	N3r0	ok, why is that? i've understand that there is a war between you guys?
20:48	joepie91	there was a bunch of leaked logs of a channel called #pure-elite, and the guy who leaked them claimed they were from 'the lulzsec channel'
20:48	joepie91	that claim in itself was bullshity
20:48	joepie91	bullshit*
20:48	N3r0	ok
20:48	joepie91	however, the 'web ninjas' believed that claim, and concluded that everyone in the log must be in lulzsec
20:48	joepie91	which is false as well
20:49	joepie91	and well, not really a 'war'
20:49	joepie91	it's more web ninjas attentionwhoring and being annoying
20:49	N3r0	so, you are not worried that they will uncover other members?
20:49	joepie91	lol, not at all
20:50	joepie91	all they have been doing is copypasting dox
20:50	joepie91	that were already public
20:50	joepie91	and putting all of it on a blog and taking credit
20:50	N3r0	ah ok
20:50	N3r0	you've probably heard about the arrest on Topiary. what is your point of view there?
20:51	joepie91	also, yes, I have strong connections to lulzsec in the sense that I know a bunch of the people in lulzsec.. but that's about it
20:51	joepie91	well, elaborate on what you mean with 'point of view there'?
20:51	joepie91	point of view on what?
20:51	N3r0	on why he is arrested
20:52	joepie91	I would assume because of lulzsec
20:52	N3r0	talking about a long sentence in jail for him. have you heard of him before?
20:52	joepie91	ofc
20:52	joepie91	he's been around forever
20:52	N3r0	i'm a bit late then
20:52	joepie91
20:53	N3r0	do you think it is right to sentence him to jailtime?
20:53	joepie91	but yeah, he has been around with anon for months... if you've ever seen the westboro baptist church interview, that was him as well
20:53	N3r0	going to lurk on that.
20:53	joepie91	no, but I don't think it's right to sentence anyone to jailtime
20:53	joepie91	literally
20:53	joepie91	I'm principally against locking up people
20:54	N3r0	not even if they murder someone? (know it is not the same, but putting it on the edge)
20:54	joepie91	nope
20:54	N3r0	what if it is a serial killer?
20:54	N3r0	or a complete bat shit insane person?
20:54	joepie91	of the people that murder someone there is only a VERY small part that is a real risk to society (most are one-offs)
20:54	joepie91	that small part can be dealt with otherwise
20:55	joepie91	nearly in every case these are people that have no friends or otherwise have social issues or lack of social interaction
20:55	joepie91	or similar issues
20:55	joepie91	things that can actually be solved
20:55	N3r0	but a complete open society is anarchy. do you support anarchy in society?
20:55	joepie91	yes, I fully support anarchy, in the REAL definition of the word
20:55	N3r0	political definition i'm guessing
20:55	joepie91	in the sense that no one person has the right to exercise force over another
20:56	N3r0	ok
20:56	joepie91	however force from others allows for equal or less force in return, or as much as is necessary for immediate self defense
20:56	joepie91	whichever is more
20:56	joepie91	and that applies to every kind of force
20:56	joepie91	not just violence
20:56	N3r0	ok
20:56	N3r0	but what about government force?
20:58	joepie91	I strongly disagree with any form of non-consentual government
20:58	joepie91	as explained above
20:58	joepie91
20:58	N3r0	yep, hehe. just have written down some question sorry for that
20:58	N3r0	moving on
20:58	N3r0	While anon is said to be an idea on how the internet should be, antisec clairly got a leader who coordinate attacks. How do antiSec look upon themself, and how do they look upon anon?
20:58	joepie91	noone can have the authority to rule over another
20:59	joepie91	and well, I'm not really involved in antisec much, so it would be better to ask the people doing antisec about that
20:59	N3r0	ok
20:59	N3r0	The idea of freedom on the internet is a good. But how do you think it will work? How far do you see the online freedom go?
20:59	joepie91	in the ideal society, or in current society?
21:00	joepie91	('ideal' being a functional anarchist society)
21:00	N3r0	current
21:01	joepie91	any kind of speech should be unconditionally allowed (of course rules per site etc may differ, but for the internet in general), as in real free speech
21:01	joepie91	things like a human DDoS (where the attack size corresponds to the amount of people backing it) should be legal as a protest form
21:02	joepie91	a botnet DDoS by a few people, obviously not, that's hardly a protest
21:02	joepie91	and it should be possible to share any kind of information freely
21:02	joepie91	not to mention that no government or corporate entity should be allowed to block *anything* on the internet
21:02	N3r0	ok, so no censor on sites? and the people have the right to diss agree and protest online as well as in reality.
21:03	joepie91	basically, yes
21:03	N3r0	but isn't attacking banks and other vital sites taking it to far?
21:03	joepie91	as long as it is a 'real' protest, yes
21:03	joepie91	the attacks on mastercard etc were clearly protests
21:04	joepie91	looking at the amount of people backing it
21:04	joepie91	it would equal a real-life sit in at the mastercard HQ
21:04	joepie91	of course, a protest should have a reason
21:04	N3r0	yes, i can see that. but the attack on HB and law enforcement in the US
21:04	joepie91	HB...?
21:04	N3r0	2sec, may be wrong
21:07	N3r0	can't seem to find his name lol.. a securety firm in the USA, where this guy said he had info on who anon was. and that he was going to sell info to the FBI
21:08	joepie91	oh, hbgary?
21:09	joepie91	with aaron barr?
21:09	N3r0	yes that's him
21:09	joepie91	while I don't think it is reasonable to demand that is legal in the current legal framework, he absolutely had it coming, it was rather amusing, and it turned up a LOT of very useful (and shocking) information
21:10	joepie91	so overall I don't have any real issues with it
21:10	N3r0	ok
21:10	N3r0	in deed it did
21:11	N3r0	How do targets get picked? Corruption?
21:11	joepie91	targets of what? anon in general?
21:12	N3r0	the one that anon or groups attack that got the same agenda as antiSec
21:13	joepie91	about antisec I'm not entirely sure what their specific criteria are... it seems to be law enforcement and security companies with government contracts and/or known corruption or 'bad intentions'
21:14	joepie91	for anon as a whole and other groups, just whatever people happen to have issues with
21:14	joepie91	(or, in some cases, what people feel like attacking, if they're just doing it for the lulz)
21:14	N3r0	ok, so it is a democracy?
21:15	joepie91	no
21:15	joepie91	a democracy is a majority vote
21:15	joepie91	anonymous as a whole is anarchy
21:15	joepie91	literally
21:15	joepie91	noone can decide anything for anyone else
21:16	N3r0	ah ok
21:16	N3r0	not that i think you will give me any info, if you knew but what do you know about the facebook treats that anon (or antisec?) has been making?
21:17	joepie91	well, there was apparently an opfacebook planned a long time ago, but the channel was closed because it made no sense
21:17	joepie91	(on anonops)
21:17	joepie91	then someone found the channel
21:17	joepie91	and apparently somehow it got going again
21:17	joepie91	and rumours surfaced of an opfacebook
21:17	joepie91	but noone was organizing anything, noone seemed to have any clue what it was
21:17	joepie91	and as far as I know there won't be an opfacebook in the form of ddos or anything
21:18	N3r0	ok, so there is some method to the madness. taking down facebook is insane imo
21:18	joepie91	can't say anything for sure ofc
21:18	joepie91	not really
21:18	joepie91	it's very possible
21:18	joepie91	just not through a ddos
21:18	joepie91
21:18	N3r0	really?
21:18	joepie91	well, consider for a second
21:18	joepie91	facebook is a free service
21:18	joepie91	how do they make money?
21:18	joepie91	(they're commercial, so they make money)
21:18	N3r0	we the people make money for them.
21:18	joepie91	how?
21:18	N3r0	by giving them free information about ourself
21:18	joepie91	exactly.
21:19	joepie91	their income source is information.
21:19	joepie91	their advertising relies on that information
21:19	N3r0	so, if you cut of the information?
21:19	joepie91	meaning that in the end they only have one central income source
21:19	joepie91	being information
21:19	joepie91	now if you know a bit about the information selling industry
21:19	joepie91	you know that reliable info is EVERYTHING
21:19	joepie91	if too much fake data gets in, your whole database is worthless
21:19	N3r0	i'm taking a class where we talk about it..
21:19	joepie91	now we know the following things
21:20	joepie91	1. facebook has ONE income source, being information
21:20	joepie91	2. too much fake data and an information database becomes worthless
21:20	joepie91	3. facebook cannot exist without an income source
21:20	joepie91	conclusion: ???
21:20	N3r0	spam
21:20	joepie91	yup
21:20	joepie91	fake information
21:20	joepie91	fake people that don't exist
21:20	joepie91	complete bogus data that doesn't actually represent anyone
21:20	joepie91	flood their systems with it and facebook is gone.
21:21	N3r0	but wont just another of these services become as popular as facebook? like myspace or twitter
21:21	joepie91	not if they get fake information as well
21:21	joepie91	the trick is to have a non-profit social network
21:22	joepie91	for example, diaspora
21:22	N3r0	hmm ok
21:22	joepie91	the problem with commercial ventures in the current (capitalist) society is that profit comes before everything
21:23	joepie91	so if you take out the commercial part
21:23	joepie91	you can actually have a social network that's actually made to provide a service to people
21:23	joepie91	not just to make money, no matter the 'price'
21:24	N3r0	i've heard rumors about a social network made by people in antisec. is this true?
21:24	joepie91	never heard it before, but I doubt it
21:24	N3r0	ok
21:24	joepie91	there *was* a social network of sorts being made by anons, but not related to antisec
21:24	joepie91	anonplus
21:24	joepie91	but that seems to sort of have imploded
21:25	N3r0	imploded?
21:25	joepie91	ye
21:25	joepie91	apparently people in fighting
21:25	joepie91	being powerhungry
21:25	joepie91	so the whole project apparently pretty much became a circlejerk of people thinking they were so epic
21:25	joepie91	and nothing actually got done
21:26	N3r0	ah ok. but isn't that one of the problems with anarchy as well?
21:26	joepie91	that's not a problem with anarchy
21:26	joepie91	that's a problem with people in general, fueled by the current hierarchical system
21:26	joepie91	people are taught to be dependent on others
21:26	joepie91	meaning that if they are supposed to do something independently, most of them will fail hard
21:26	joepie91	because they're not used to it
21:26	N3r0	yes, but people in general are powerhungry.
21:26	joepie91	what do you base that off?
21:27	N3r0	watching the world evolve.
21:27	joepie91	have you ever lived personally in an anarchist society? or any society not built on hierarchies, for that matter?
21:27	N3r0	people gets often powerhungry if they get to much power. wanting more. it is normal, and called greed
21:27	joepie91	yes, exactly
21:27	joepie91	so what if there IS no hierarchy?
21:27	joepie91	then there is no power to strive for
21:27	joepie91	problem solved
21:28	N3r0	i have no idea what would happen then
21:28	N3r0	it might have gone really well, or the whole world would fall apart
21:28	joepie91	from what I have seen in the smaller anarchist communities (squatters, and similar things) it leads to mutual respect and a total lack of greed/powerhungriness
21:28	joepie91	now I haven't lived in a large scale anarchist society either, so I can't say anything about that
21:28	joepie91	but I cannot see a reason why it wouldn't work there either
21:29	joepie91	I'm actually planning on setting up a community that will be pretty much be anarchist, a relatively large community... so we'll see how that goes
21:29	joepie91	(somewhere in the future) //////////////////// VIKTIG ////////////////////
21:29	N3r0	you might be right, and i agree that democracy (like it is today with politicians) is wrong, and makes the world worse. but still better than what it was 50 years ago.
21:29	N3r0	democracy is still new.
21:29	joepie91	eh
21:29	joepie91	the current systems are not democracy
21:30	joepie91	not by a long shot
21:30	N3r0	it is politician democracy.
21:30	joepie91	it's 'representative democracy' which isn't actually democracy
21:30	joepie91	democracy = the voice of the people
21:30	joepie91	as in, people get to vote on issues directly
21:30	N3r0	it is more like the vote of the people
21:30	joepie91	in a democracy, every person can bring up a point
21:30	joepie91	so it's not just a vote
21:30	joepie91	but also a voice
21:31	joepie91	that is yet another reason why what we live in is not a democracy
21:31	joepie91	this is choose-your-slaughterhouse, pretty much
21:31	joepie91	you get to choose a puppet, and the moment one gets chosen you practically lose control over what happens
21:31	joepie91	that isn't even anywhere near democracy
21:31	N3r0	so, you don't have an idol in society?
21:32	joepie91	meh, I don't praise idols, I praise ideas
21:32	joepie91	just like I try to not use labels that define more than one characteristic
21:33	joepie91	I'd rather talk about issues and ideas than talk about some too generic label or person who supposedly came up with it
21:34	N3r0	yes, but you need to know what to ask before knowing the answer .
21:34	joepie91	ofc, but what to ask is never a person or a label
21:34	N3r0	it's always an idea
21:35	N3r0	anyway, this has been interesting ty so much for the talk
21:36	joepie91	np
21:36	joepie91	if you have any other questions, shoot
21:36	N3r0	to finish of, can i ask if you are born in 1991? since your name is joepie91.
21:37	joepie91	correct
21:37	joepie91	I'm an open book
21:37	joepie91	literally
21:37	joepie91	all my personal info is out there and was always out there, never tried to hide it
21:37	joepie91
21:37	N3r0
21:37	N3r0	i'll be back if i got more questions. ty

Sven slootweg