Fem vs Mik

Fem vs Mik

Fem R1
* samus close range supersonic missiles
* shoots bullets out of the air
* dodge gunfire at close range
* dodge into gunfire
* grab supersonic missile
* aerial mobility w/ jumps and rolls
* high rof, multi-targeting
* even slow projectiles make sonic booms
* blasts crater concrete, rend metal, detonate ships when charged
* punches and kicks launch heavy foes hard enough to break concrete
* ice beams encase foes in solid ice
* heat from explosives and plasma beams
-how hot, what does it melt or burn
* power bombs and super missiles create massive collateral with aoe
* samus kicked through concrete and rebar floor
* launched through concrete and rebar wall
* knocked into wall hard enough to indent herself into it
* solid piercing resistance
* heat resist
* pressure resist
* fights with agility
* will seek to create distance in order to use ranged attacks
* works through options and combines them at range
* samus physicals are competitive enough for her to disengage with traps
* protect allies
* seek cover
* ww track bullets with eyes consistently
* block bullets from many angles in many ways
* sword and shield make attacking and defending faster w/ less motion, thus easier
* cut through metal, stab through concrete
* shatters marble statues bigger than she is
* charge through walls
* 30t lifting
* restrain foes from range
* shield blocks attacks
* launched into tanks
* shield is piercing resistant
* relevant gauntlets
* poison and electrical resistance
* maneuvers around opponents
* seeks higher ground
* restrains with lasso
* blasts aoe to regain advantage
* takes footing, sets up stab
* protect teammates
* commands teammates
* distracts teammates
* edward 10ms reactions
* perceive singular milliseconds, cannot react in 1ms
* faster than a 12ms person
* human speed is slowmo
* completes a complex action in 10ms
* athletic teenager speed feels like slow motion
* 100+mph travel
* superhuman thought speed
* edward grapples
* grip strength turns iron into dust
* hundreds of times his own weight in lifting
* and he's heavier than he looks
* grapples people stronger than he is
* bites shred steel
* poison in bite causes massive pain
* kicks launch edward 3 stories up
* throws put people through trees
* tackles crater wooden floor
* tackled without damage
* braced against shove that split stone
* thrown boulder is only annoying
* unable to kill himself
* very bullet proof
* piercing vampire is like cutting through granite
* throws objects at opponents and makes collatera
* abuses speed with engage/disengage
* attacks distracted foes esp when back is turned
* cannonball fast
* 100mph+ to supersonic
* react to bullets after they're fired
* avoid obstacles while traveling at high speeds
* blasts through anything p much
* fine with taking hits while blastin'
* on drugs that make him angy
* will just smack the shit out of you
* edward has telepathy and fuck you senses
* will know the plans of team mik
* ambushes distracted enemies
* samus will engage any enemy with quick rof and aoe
* lay down cover fire
* shoot down projectiles
* will cover behind shields
* diana protecc teammates
* synergizes with samus
* ww has to be bypassed to access samus
* diana distracts allowing for ambush
* cannonball blasts at ya and you either get incapped or removed from the immediate fight which is likely a loss
* ben catches close bullet, does not believe he can be tagged at close range, good at avoiding gunfire
* luther evades barrage of gunfire from across the room, deflects gunfire while distracted, strodeverse is bullet timing, plus danger awareness
* bb fights people who are fast and catches an arrow (f o a m l o l)
* no comment on ult spidey other than his feats can be reasonably interpreted as aimdodging and not 200mph/5ms
* team mik has strode prediciton, spider-senses, and beetle's tracking
* at worst team fem is comparable in speed to team mik based on previous argumentation
* ben hits opponent through wall, throws car, restraining and poison vectors
* strode big slam, swing good, throws shit
* peter punches big man into statue, truck feat, webbing
* beetle scales to mech bust, cuts through earth, scales to boulder breaking blasts
* strode launched a far distance and recovers quickly
-just address the tree feat outright tbh
* slammed into asphalt but recovers slightly slower
* beetle okay by hits that shatter boulders
* ben good showings vs cars and concrete
* peter thrown into a bus
* generally high injury tolerance
* even if we discount esoterics entirely, team fem can beat up team mik
* first response is general overview and stat comparison, not meant to be fully comprehensive, but showcases competitive stats of team fem as compared to team mik

Solid first response, I think. Little to comment on, mostly overview and stat establishment.

Mik R1
* team mik has prediction abilities
* strode has prediction that allows him to hit opponents who are going to dodge
* this can be used against bullet timers
* bb uses software to hit someone easily supersonic
* ben's spidey sense lets him detect weapons before they're drawn, discern intent from opponents, and warns him before an attack hits to reflexively dodge in safe directions, including danger to his allies relative to the amount of danger they're in
* peter's spidey sense is essentially the same, warns of surprise attacks, forewarns of attacks before they're fired, and guides to correct counter, and also applies to allies
* edward's telepathy is a hindrance
* it cannot be turned off
* reading ben's mind causes agonizing pain to mr sinister who is both a more powerful telepath and more resistant to pain
* edward's tp requires focus to be useful
* and he's never resisted such overwhelming psychic damage, and also he's never coordinated in the way fem describes
* strode evades a barrage of bullets from feet in front of him, gathers ammo while deflecting close-range gunfire, everyone he fights is a bullet timer, and he's faster than someone definitely bullet timing
* bb fights and outreacts superboy and wonder girl who are both clear bullet timers
* ben catches a bullet fired 5ft away, doesn't think anyone at that distance can hit him
* big album of never getting hit by bullets
* favorable scaling to bullet timers like kaine and venom
* peter moves out of the way of bullets that are feet from him, even against automatic gunfire, can adjust instantly to varities of attack, scales above bullet-relevant people and embarrasses them in speed
* team fem doesn't scale favorably to other fast people in their verse
* ww's speed scaling comes from a person who gets hit by a bullet from far away whom she's not notably faster than
* frozen in a speedster's pov
-i don't think this claim means very much when neither flash nor superman are given any speed numbers, if they were lightspeed or something this claim would have no weight for example
* never outright outspeeds an opposing superhuman
* samus takes hits in all her fights even against lumbering monsters
* cannonball doesnt avoid hits and his reactions are useless, he has antifeats that suck
* edward could scale favorably but he has mind reading that makes that not matter in his verse
* every member of team mik can proficiently navigate the urban environment
* strode jumps stories at a time and jumps across a city to catch up to speeding vehicles while fighting a bullet timer
* bb flies faster than jets
* spiderboys have webbing and jump around
* only cannonball has relevant movin around and he has to uninvincible to turn
* fem cedes attack initiative to team mik, team mik will have advantage in engage and disengage
* team mik has range
* bb blasts apart large metallic container
* staples pin down targets with no lifting
* strode throws objects faster than bullets and also throws them hard
* stingers instantly paralyze and render target unconscious before they hit the ground
* spidey webs hit multiple people and he can web up an entire room
* impact webbing is strong, activates in microseconds, allows for stinger hits, and outright incaps
* being in the periphery of bb's sonic cannon hurts edward to be near bc super senses
* samus needs screw attack to counter a blade
* ww needs to block ww1 era handguns
* edward has no piercing resistance above handguns and hunting rifles
* statement is that rocks don't bleed
* strode's projectiles are stronger
* no poison resist
* mustard gas =/= neurotoxin
* ben has resistances specifically to neurotoxins and it works on him
* stingers work on armored opponents
* even bulletproof opponents
* when he cant pierce skin, he fires down their throat
* webbing instantly incaps samus who has no lifting, and slows down people with lifting feats enough that they get hit more
* cannonball is vulnerable while not blasting and can be knocked out of blasting regardless, is normal human when not blasting, and doesn't always blast even when that's a bad thing to do
* team mik only engages in melee if they have to
* bb beats up people with relevant dura, plus has boulder-cutting swords
-this looks like it's definitely going to be argued against as cutting through dirt
* strode smashes concrete good
* splinters a tree and throws people stories up
* ben smashes people through walls and throws cars hard enough to smash them against a giant robot's face
* peter busts through concrete, beats someone to death with a cargo truck while dying, and craters foes into a street while rocking nearby vehicles in the air
* one headbutt dazes ww, second headbutt removes her from fight, writhes in pain from undertier crater
-i dont think it's irrelevant to counter with "superman is way overtier"
* samus is dazed and groaning as well as coughing from presented durability feats
* edward has never taken a big hit in his life, braces himself for a hit that cracks stone
* no dura to contend with boulder-slicing bb
* cannonball does not blast forever and loses when he stops
* bb takes sustained fire from plasma and sonic cannons that shatter huge boulders, and fought with mongul for three hours
* strode cratered hard enough to rock a van into the air and immediately recover
* fights brutally with someone who crumples thick metal with punches
* ben crumples a cargo truck running into him, gets thrown through walls of conceret ready to fight, and fights in an extended fashion with kaine who is a stronger version of himself
* peter withstands blasts from shocker's vibroblasters when earlier those blasters sent cars flying, fights through cratering concrete and crumpling vehicles
* ww's best proposed striking is a full body tackle through a brick wall
* samus's blast makes a small crater
* edward's striking doesn't exist
* cannonball can't hit predictive bullet timers and if he does they can get out
* bb is fine after multiple hits from staples that pierce stone and brick
* and from hits from blades that match bb's own boulder-slicing blades
* strode stabbed in chest with spear, slashes dozens of times, no wounds right after
* hit by a gatling gun that mulched another method user, is fine after
* ben has his guts falling out and is fine with wall-cracking hits, keeps going through blood loss, fights for an hour of intense physical activity after being stabbed in the chest
* peter takes a bullet to the gut, swings away, fights multiple opponents while taking more damage, still dodges and hits, without symbiote, which instantly repairs piercing damage, even damage right through chest
* no piercing slows down team mik and also does not win
* samus's attacks aren't supersonic they're artistic flourish
* edward grapples don't matter due to
* bb koing with electricity
* strode is resilient and fights while disemboweled
* ben fights through injuries and also is resistant to venoms
-mmmmm
* peter fights through injuries and the symbiote was created to cure foreign bodies
* samus's attacks are slow and edward's don't work, just allow for counterattacks

Good response, but a few claims I'd say are questionable.

Fem R2
* mik misunderstands initiative, if bws is attacking then the team that has a defensive setup still has initiative, tfa controls engagement and thus has initiative
-you guys are putting a lot of weight on who has initiative, huh
* mik misunderstands edward's precog
* edward can ignore voices
* ben was choosing to overwhelm a psychic opponent with tragic memories because he knew sinister was reading his mind
* also the pain here doesn't scale above the pain of being blasted into bones, sinister just backhands ben
* and ben's psychic defenses are not passive, he will have no idea someone is reading his mind
* if it were something edward would need to worry about, he could do it because twilight is literally about him being in constant pain
* the best method user gets tagged by a less experienced user, bullets, and a projectiled knife
* peter in his venom suit is shot in the shoulder by a guy you don't need precog to know is going to shoot
* ben is outpaced by a pile of snakes
* beetle's software doesn't even begin to work until he's already been hit several times
* team mik's predictions are both inconsistent and inefficient
* bb does not fight in the way proposed by mik
* bb mostly hovers or stands in place, tanks, and returns fire
* if mik's team at all depends on bb distracting foes, it's not gonna happen
* samus shoots down any projectiles
* diana blocks projectiles with shield or lasso
* stray attacks are dodgeable for samus, ranged attacks won't work
* samus has multiple mach speed attacks
* ww can restrain at range with 30t lifting
* edward throws hard enough to projectile people through trees
* cannonball blitzes at 100mph+
* team fem affects the distance between teams and teammates with aoe
* if all of team mik blitzes, they get told to fuck off by guntlet aoe
* even if ranged attacks hit team fem they are ineffective
* due to team fem having lifting
* or poison resist on diana's level
* what does poison do to someone made of stone
* plus questions come up like "what's the rof" and "how much do you have on you"
* cannonball removes bb immediately if he does use his flight because bb gets inertia'd
* samus's shots are not meaningfully different from hits that ben and peter take
* plus ice beams and missiles
* the strategy of splitting up to flank team fem makes four easy individual targets who can't cover for each other
* tall order for four strangers to simultaneously converge on team fem when they have different travel speeds and no teamwork
* edward knows who will attack when in this case as well
* diana takes footing and stabs you, creates space, yanks you around, beats you up
* samus combines blasts and melee and sets up traps that make the fight calculus "disengage or lose"
* very acrobatic and can disengage at will
* edward waits for distraction and rips apart or bites off heads
* cannonball hits harder and could hit you from behind in such a scenario
* in cqc there are a million things to watch out for from team fem that will force disengage where edward chases down and bites off heads
* team mik could be fast but it doesnt matter if they just get hit anyway
* strode consistently takes hits in a slugfest from people comparable to him
* plus he trades hits
* black beetle does not dodge ever
* ben is the only one who always dodges
* mik's team would rather trade than dodge in most instances
* team fem uses speed to do things that are not trade and are sometimes dodge
* samus fights with agility and dodges where possible
* diana has near-100% success in blocking or dodging projectiles
* edward does not take hits due to speed and precog
* cannonball eats hits and can do so vs team mik
* 3/4 of team fem uses speed well, 3/4 of team mik does not
* if cannonball isn't bullet timing because of one feat indicating that, then neither are superboy, wonder girl, delilah, ben, or ult ock
-i don't know what the outcome of this move will be but it's definitely a chad move to make
* strode is low double-digit ms
* no indication of when strode reacts and acts vs when projectiles are fired and where
* ben absolutely does have one bullet timing feat
* but he barely has to move to do it and he's surprised he can do it
* ben claiming he couldn't be hit from close range could easily refer to spider sense
* an album of "look at him not being tagged" is meaningless because a similar album can be made for characters who are not bullet timing
* spidey being "faster" in the symbiote suit could be meaningless exaggeration because the venom symbiote affects judgment a la "i'm a better driver while drunk"
-this claim definitely needs evidence, surely if this is true there's a scan where it's noted that the venom suit affects the user's judgment in this manner
* no clear reactions or movement in any of ult peter's feats
* bb catches 160fps arrow from 20ft away and then doesn't do anything about the foam expanding
* scaling to bullet timers here is them not trying to dodge him
* not an antifeat for diana to fight antiope when antiope isn't the person who got shot
* flash perceives someone who makes sonic booms with his blows to be moving in slow motion, how does it matter that he doesn't think diana is fast
* "she gets hit while fighting people sometimes" isn't really an argument against her speed
* there are extenuating circumstances and explanations to why samus would get hit in the fights used as antifeats by mik that do not apply to this fight
* cannonball doesn't react fast but it doesn't matter because team mik takes hits
* edward has never been tagged, and he can avoid being tagged by your team
* bb recovers from "boulder busting attack" or the mongul attack way slower than team fem can dish that level of attack out
* shocker is trying to cause peter pain here, not knock him out
* all of team fem's attack vectors are relevant to peter
* damage similar to samus's blasts hurts him
* the recovery from the strode truck hit is as bad or worse than samus's recovery
-idt this is true, the strode scan is cropped and the next panel is luther grabbing onto a passing car i'm pretty sure
* cuts cause pain to bb and work on him, this is just the armor healing itself
* bb clearly gets cut in a feat mik said "didn't leave a scratch on him"
* why is mik saying this is bb cutting through a boulder, it's pretty clearly dirt
* diana and edward's piercing are massively better than this and will work on bb
* venom symbiote allows for him to fight through piercing but this can be outpaced by damage
-this needs a scan of the symbiote failing to keep up with piercing damage output
* ben has lacerations on his torso, his guts aren't falling out
* ben says he needs to patch up his wound immediately or he will bleed out, he cannot patch up a wound here while engaged with or disengaging from team fem
* strode can be durable vs bleeding but would be incapacitated by getting his head bitten off or his limbs torn off
* thermal works on bb to damage his armor
* samus missile + ice beam beats bb
* no thermal resistance for 3/4 of team mik
* bb can be grappled because doesn't activate defenses in a relevant timeframe nor with relevant potency to hurt edward
* peter responds to grapple with tendrils that do nothing to edward
* ben's response to grappling takes way more effort than could be reasonably exerted in a relevant timeframe
* strode has no lifting really vs 60t lifting
* bb and strode have no poison resist
* venom symbiote unfinished, does not flush the body of toxins in any feat
* ben overwhelmed by snakes
* mik does not show super boy or wonder girl fighting through the feats he scales bb above
* strode doesn't hit as hard with windup as ww and samus take
* ben's striking feat is through drywall, is weaker than samus's feat through concrete
* peter has good striking but doesn't incap with one hit
* hulk is the one who knocks cannonball out of his striking
* no member of team mik probably has meta knowledge to trick him out of it
* also cannonball is on murder drugs here
* superman is way the fuck out of tier striking, being dazed or incapped by hits from him is not an antifeat
* ww is struggling against the treads, not writhing in pain, her other dura feats would reinforce fem's interp
* beetle is irrelevant, strode does not incap even with his biggest hit, ben and peter don't put samus down without an extended fight that they can't keep up
* edward takes hits from a person who hits as hard as a 60mph cement truck, and has never lost to him. he doesnt get oneshot

Good response, in particular with rebuttals and pointing out disparities between damage vectors and durability to those vectors. One or two questionable claims.

Mik R2
* fem's fight analysis is due to not addressing feats, mischaracterizing addressed feats, and contriving circumstances for his characters and not for mik's
* mik's argument was that 4 faster precog characters have control of the fight's engagement and that as a result of engaging with a defensively oriented team have initiative
* all 4 members of team mik have precog and senses allowing them to map out the area with danger highlighted
* team mik each independently has precog and aren't working off of one person's precog with perfect and optimal relay and response
* ben was resisting mr sinister's tp and let him in, this is what made sinister shriek in pain
-does the scan of cyclops blowing up sinister not exist, why not link the actual scan of that if it does? the scan provided doesn't say how much sinister hurt when cyclops murked him
* strode sees 1000 moves ahead and learned to counter attempts to predict him
-i think this applies mostly or only to method precog and i would be a little wary of making this claim in application to edward
* bb acts harmoniously with combat ai
* instinct counters edward's tp
* peter's spidey sense makes him fight instinctively
* plus an extra mind in venom
* peter and ben both precog for their allies as well
* edward cannot account for everything if he can even account for anything
* the opposition do not effectively utilize the speed they have in fights similar to this one
-scans?
* a speed/initiative advantage alows my team to land and evade more hits than their opposition
-fem argued against both your team's ability and willingness to do this with scans for the predilection to tank and trade hits, and argued that a speed advantage alone does not make them dodge
* at range, ww blocks sequentially, not simultaneously, and sustained blasts occupy her focus
* samus can't shoot two things at once
* neither can attack and defend at the same time
* webbing cannot be blocked, the aoe is too big, they expand too quickly, and escaping means you aren't defending
* the webbing cocoons crowds of people at a time and team fem is purposefully sticking together
* also the webbing would cause samus's weapon to backfire
* strode throws things faster than bullets
* bb is using a sonic cannon to hit hypersonic targets
-hypersonic since which feat
* ben's impact webbing and stingers hit bullet timers
* peter's webbing can build complex structures in fractions of a second
* there's no way for team fem to respond to all of these things at once
* edward's throws dont do meaningful damage even if he had something to throw
* the lasso isn't a win con and makes her unable to defend bc it requires two hands
* fem argues for his team establishing range despite there being nowhere to maneuver in the starting area
-tru where do they go
* the fight is without los, cramped, team fem needs flawless coordination
* edward's telepathy is bad bc better mindreading requires familiarity and concentration
* every feat of edward using tp in combat is against familiar minds
* edward doesn't read the minds of jacob and seth from a mile out, so the team does not coordinate flawlessly
* ambient noise can distract edward
-i think the text is saying that selecting for a voice through a crowd of distracting voices is what's difficult, not ambient noise
* needs to consciously ignore voices
-this seems like a point against "not being able to read 5 people's minds"
* edward's pain feats are not physical, but emotional
* having to distract himself from bella's scent is a counter to the idea that he can effectively multitask in combat
-i don't think i understand this point
* feat that fem says allows edward to "gain awareness of team mik's weaknesses" doesnt show that
* edward is reading alice's precog before combat, not jasper in combat
* feat doesn't show that edward will know advantages
* scan doesn't say anything about intent or mindreading, only that edward can't be snuck up on
-this is not that strong a point against, i think
* the "hundredth of a second" is a time frame relative to actions edward isn't personally doing
-fem's emphasis is on "vividly aware of her fragile, breakable body [in the hundredth of a second]", i think
* "a millisecond too slow" is not millisecond-perception
* he isn't outreacting bella, he's outrunning her
* edward never dodges, he's primarily argued as grappling, speed is irrelevant to him
* edward never takes a hit to the face and specifically takes a hit that he sees the intent coming from
* fem uses a feat of edward not taking a hit to the face to evidence him being able to take a hit to the face
* offhand comparisons to stone do not make piercing or poison resist
-i think this point requires more evidence than outright dismissal
* ww's speed is inconsistent or absent in melee
* full minute to clear a roomful of germans who disarm her
* she fights at irl human speeds against multiple opponents and is hit by attacks that take more than a second in windup to execute
* ww cant catch a falling sword
-i dont remember if she can fly by this scene? but if she can't then she'd be falling with the same acceleration as the sword
* flash has to save her from falling debris
* she is exactly as frozen from flash's pov as cyborg and aquaman who are slow
-i think this doesn't fully address fem's argument that if flash is sufficiently fast then the difference between ww's speed and aquaman or cyborg's would be negligible to him
* either she's injured by a small crater or has an antifeat for escaping restraints which would counter her one lifting feat
* either KO'd in melee by any member of team mik or incapped by bb, ben, or peter, no good interpretation of this feat
* ww dazed by a headbutt from superman and incapped by a hit that causes lackluster damage
* plus superman's exhibited striking feat for scaling isn't oot to this tier
* fem made the argument mik is making this round, last round
* if diana blocks she is vulnerable to attacks from other directions
* what does restraining with the lasso do but make ww vulnerable to attacks from elsewhere
* the fuck off aoe bracer shockwave would also affect her teammates and they can't all fly
-tru
* samus's projectiles are not supersonic
* the same standards give bb supersonic striking and reactions
* no reason to believe samus has any supersonic projectiles until this argument is addressed
* cannonball is an antifeat
* the stip makes him dumb
* sunspot knocks him out of it when sunspot's striking is below the tier
-the scan says the strike that knocked cannonball out of it would pulverize a fair-sized building
* tricking cannonball out of it doesn't require meta knowledge
* cannonball even drops the blastin' because of tactics that team mik uses, like cocooning, which is something ben uses against force fields
* the field of bullets is bullet timing, the shooter charge is bullet timing
-fem's point was that this isn't reaction, not that it isn't fast, it's definitely fast
* strode being able to collect ammunition and deflect bullets at the same time for bullet+ speed projectiles is good
* method users predicting each other is very complicated, it is not so for non-method users
* strode constantly hits bullet timers with his attacks
* strode did not hit a limit and actively gets better over time, scaling above all other method users
* no reason for team fem to ever be able to actually hit strode
* bb doesn't need to be hit for his tracking to work
-im not gonna go back and look but i think what fem said was "he doesn't activate it until he's already been hit"
* he does dodge but he's usually outnumbered
* bb appears unarmored after this and is fine
-fem said this isn't evidence that if something reached his body that the armor would heal it, not that his body was hit in this scan and his armor did not heal it
* the healing is on a cellular level
* fem said restraining him works and used a scan of restraining him not working
-but he did get hit by the restraint is the thing, he just happened to be strong enough to break out of it
* bb takes heat hot enough to vaporize tomatoes and is fine, thermal doesn't work
* ben isn't outpaced by snakes he's completely surrounded by them and he resisted dozens at once when one should paralyze
-you linked a southeast asian coral snake when this takes place in florida
* bullet catch is against kaine whom the spider sense doesnt work against
-idt fem argued spider sense in relation to this feat but in relation to "doesn't believe he could be hit from close range" feat
* ben dodges automatic fire even without the spider-sense
* ben has other feats for breaking out of restraints including metal and rock
* peter's bullet timing feat is good here are arrows that show how it works
* shocker is torturing peter, not interrogating him
* he's shot from like a foot away
-shouldnt his spider sense have warned him then
* but he does dodge point blank gunfire in the suit
* not an antifeat to be hit by ult thor, who tags hypersonic speedsters
* peter is in fact stronger and faster when he has the suit

Solid response, very good rebuttals to Fem's points. I think there are certain points where you're arguing against a point Fem didn't specifically make, though. No more comments here on out, I want to finish.

Fem R3
* mik uses double standards
* responds to only one of eight peter antifeats vs fem responding to one of two cannonball antifeats
* argues against fem's team coordinating and for his own
* only ben reilly can have isolated bullet timing feats that prove he's bullet timing, and not cannonball, the luthor strode rogues gallery, superboy, wonder girl, and ult dock
* edward completing a complex action in 10ms is worse than an album of people missing shots on him
* ww is slow because her bullet timing feats dont take place in 5ms but black beetle is fast because he catches an arrow at 20ft
* "your characters dont consistently dodge, they dont meet the standard of proof i am setting of dodging once and then getting tagged 4 times"
* mik is in fact the one engaging in intellectual dishonesty by not engaging with fem's arguments against dura and striking at least in favor of trying to dump on edward's tp
* mik's precog arguments amount to "team mike knows where team fem is at all times"
-this seems like a massive underselling of the precog mik sold his team with in his response 1 in particular
* both teams jump far, it's not a win con
* no suggestion that team mik can blitz team fem
* if you're moving as fast as you can you're not avoiding damage
* if you're moving at sub-top speed you're struggling to engage
* bb "aggressively attacks from the air" by hovering and shooting attacks that are so slow to fire fem thought the video had paused
* bb doesn't need to fly fast to disengage from miss martian in these scans, he actively warded her off his tail with blasts
* no reason to think cannonball doesn't facefuck bb
* team mik is unable to pull off "omnidirectional attack" in this scenario
* mik's team's rof has to be high in addition to damaging if his strategy is to work and has to be done in a specific way vs "shoot at team mik, blast you away if you get close, hit while distracted"
* if ben's tp resist is passive then edward just reads everyone else's mind
* "ben's mind is so sick and twisted that daring to enter it is like getting ripped in half" is not a real argument
-if you read the scan it references a time that cyclops basically vaporized sinister's flesh until he was just bones, i do not know at all why mik wouldn't use that scan if it existed tho
* newborn vampires fight with instinct and are stronger than edward, but edward is still good at killing them
* fighting on instinct alone is a terrible way to fight edward
* edward does better with familiar minds, yes, but he also can just read anyone's mind like he does to riley and exploit them
* he anticipates attacks, sees moves before they're made, anticipate stealth attacks, and counters attacks before they begin
* the extent of the need for edward's precog is "will know what you're going to be doing e.g. if you want to blitz he'll know you want to blitz"
* diana can block an entire machine gun nest simultaneously
* saying "samus can't shoot two things simultaneously" is wrong here's a feat of that
* samus just shoots down the webbing
* webbing venom happens at super close range and isn't really worth talking about as a reaction
* peter's feats are "two people running into webs peter sets up for them"
* also why can peter use these "very complex" webbing structures with the venom symbiote
* edward projectiles someone, using a projectile, through a tree
* puts cars through walls*
* diana's team can defend her if she's busy and fem's entire team can navigate the island easily if she uses the fuck off move
* cannonball does a blastin' that team mik fails the dodgecheck for
* samus blasts with ww defending
* edward takes out people who are distracted or get too close
* anyone who wants to get to samus has to get through blasts, a sword+shield brick, and a guy who rips you apart and knows how you're going to attack
* if bb has advanced tracking software, maps out all his opponents, and has tier relevant speeds, why is he always getting hit by everything
* the predictive targeting sucks and has never predicted more than one person at a time and has been used exactly once on a character who already hit him
* the software doesn't let him launch attacks in relevant time frames and doesn't let him not get hit
* he catches a 160fps projectile from 20ft and then gets hit by the foam that expands over 6 frames and that's his only speed feat
* the feats that bb scales to fail to meet mik's standards of what makes a bullet timing character
* "every method user is bullet timing" is bullshit
-that's fair but it also isn't the thing mik argued, as i recall he said "these characters strode hits all have good bullet timing feats"
* strode's reactions are never solidly placed by any feat, only his movement
* the only time it looks like he might be reacting, his opponent says he's hard to hit because he's predicting
* strode author wog strode isn't strong or fast, this is an argument mik explicitly gives credence to against samus except samus's doesn't have wog
-this argument is so fucking cursed
* method users getting hit while distracted is exactly what fem argues his team does
* peter getting hit while wearing the symbiote was not addressed for the most part
* peter doesn't dodge a terrified dude, the dude just misses him
* ben has one speed feat and didn't refute any of fem's argumentation against it
* ben reacts without spider-sense to an early warning of fire rather than a bullet
* getting bitten by a pile of snakes is still an antifeat
* cannonball doesn't have to react fast, he just moves really fast and hits really hard
* 3/4 of team mik fails the dodgecheck
* the samus art for sonic booms is consistent but even if we assume subsonic bullets, samus is consistently very fast
* samus does five actions in 10-20ms
* samus dashes 4 times in 21-32ms
* fires 13 shots before anyone can counterattack, 19ms/shot
* grabs and throws a missile from 5ft away, significant limb movement in 6ms
* joey punches bullets from close range, 13ms
* mik said visually slow is fake in relation to his characters but then used that against diana
* ww is a very consistent and clear bullet timer
* there are huge mental gymnastics you have to go through to make these make sense with mik's assumptions
* or diana is a bullet timer
* edward is 10ms bc he does things in 10ms and knows about them in that time too
* plus he outreacts someone who is 12ms
* team fem's speed is very consistent
* team mik's speed is inconsistent
* team mik cannot just bullet time once and win, they have to do it constantly and if they fail it hurts them
* "everything about bb is wrong" doesn't address shit lifting, bad blunt dura, healing to deal with piercing, losing to grapple or poison, or being reliant on shit scaling
* pete doesn't respond well to grapples, has 0 thermal feats, misinterpreted poison resist, and 2 dura feats to blunt that are not good against team fem
* mik doesn't engage "he isn't trying to kill peter throughout this scene"
* strode's best hits don't surpass team fem's dura
* all of team fem's hits would bring strode down
* ripping off strode's limbs works, heat works, impalement weakens him long enough to put him down, poison works
* ben has subpar striking, lacking dura, adn can't take consecutive strikes
* and mik only addressed the snake feat
* mik only addressed the physicals of diana and edward and only to talk about face dura when no one on mik's team is shown hitting anyone in the face
* emmett has an arm like a 60mph cement truck, emmett shoves edward and breaks a rock, the force traveling through edward's body without injury
* also your team has 0 reason to target edward as opposed to any other member of team fem who are more distracting
* getting hurt by superman is not an antifeat

Mik R3
* "righteous indignation" in response to having to do 10x the explanation for wrongly interpreted feats
* gish galloping
* no los
* fem cant turtle in this arena
* independent fighters act independently in mik strategy
* bb flies and attacks straightforwardly
* strode's jumps to navigate cities and he starts fights with ranged attacks
* ben and peter have similar maneuverability
* team fem cannot possibly defend from all sides at once
* ww can only block with one of shield, bracers, or lasso
* can only attack with one of shield, sword, bracers, or lasso at a time
* does she melee or does she aoe to establish range
* is samus defending against projectiles, dodging, hiding behind allies, or defending them
* is she using energy beams, plasma bolts, ice rays, rockets, traps, or big aoe that would hurt team fem strats
* what is edward doing
* perfect defense is necessary to win
* jasper just doesnt instinct hard enough and edward still doesnt have the upper hand
* the scan fem used about riley was not in combat
* riley saying edward is a mind reader isnt real because riley is a known liar
-nnnnnnnnn
* team mik's precog is better than knowing where team fem is
* one leap does not a mobility make
* and the spideys just maneuver around cities in every single comic
* ww scatters team mik or samus aoes team mik, fem's team ends up disadvantaged bc less mobile
* falling from height makes team fem vulnerable
* peter antifeats were not good for reasons
* team mik characters act in ways that naturally synergize and do not require overarching strategy
* team fem characters are being contrived to act in accordance with edward, a stranger
* mik didnt argue that bullet timing feats are invalid due to rarity, but due to antifeats
* fem argued against ben not with antifeats and handwaved scaling
-the scaling to venom wasn't handwaved, fem said it was too close for anyone to reasonably dodge. and the ben feat that fem said was definitely bullet timing, fem essentially argued was an outlier
* strode's bullet timing and scaling to bullet timers was nitpicked beyond reason when 1-issue bullet timers bullet time and then lose to strode and fem's team doesnt scale to any bullet timers whatsoever
* edward's reaction isn't what takes place in 10ms, ben's feat is better
* ww doesnt use her speed against people, just bullets
-i want you to hear this argument out loud
* ww getting outsped by a sword is damning
-tearing my eyes out can she even fly
* catching an arrow from a crossbow is good for bb
-you never contested 160fps/20ft= literally 125ms reactions
* the standard of proof coming from mik is "show them using their speed in combat", 3 characters on team mik bullet time in combat
* a single panel can show a range of moments
-i should strike you down for linking this
* circles being used to portray sonic booms is nonsense
* if this is supersonic then bb is supersonic striking
* fem stop gish galloping here's an antiantifeat album
-i'm glad this is now against the rules
* another antiantifeat album
-fuck end this
* reacting to precog is what mik originally argued
* strode wog means nothing, what you see is what you get
* ben hits venom with stingers and impact webbing at farther distances than venom reacts to bullets
-idt he hits venom with the stingers until venom is already fucked up a bit by the impact webbing
* peter webs up a 100mph car in several ways
* he just webs up shit
* fucking antiantialbum fuck off
* bb is durable, oneshots people with ok dura
* outreacts both of them
* he has to be put down because he's a tank and a distraction
* tags hypersonic people
* he does dodge but doesn't need to
* his attacks are of relevant strength and can't be shot out of the air
* symbiote is finished, suspected of being unfinished at the start of the arc cited, scan shows it was finished
-scan does not seem to show that on my reading
* cartoon arrows
* thermal samus attacks have no speed but the symbiote resists thermalshit anyway
-these beams dont look the same but ok
* no scan for symbiote overwhelmed by damage
* cracking an ibeam is good
* ww getting ko'd by a small crater in concrete is an antifeat
* it's not just visually slow, it's also reference to normal people
* takes a full minute to clear out a room of germans still
* win con posting

Okay finally through this thing. Lot of shitflinging at the end, glad the album shit is against the rules now.

I don't think BB is that fast, Mik never refuted that the arrow feat was bad, the scaling is whatever, sure, he might be relevant but he isn't fast. I don't think WW can block everything Team Mik throws at Team Fem but I'm not sure she really has to if Fem's argued strategy of ganging one dude when the four split up is what happens.

Peter is fine, I don't love the arguments for his bullet timing because it looks fake. Ben is clearly fast to some degree, Samus is very clearly fast to me, WW is fast probably but Mik is right that she isn't using her speed to its fullest extent against her opponents here. Fem never really proposed a way that his team would deal with BB's sonic cannon other than Cannonball rushes him, but I don't know if Cannonball takes him down that way. BB is not faster than a jet in flight, he probably can't dodge Cannonball. If Cannonball hits him, I'd cede that BB is out of the fight for the time being where Cannonball can just return at a greater speed.

So if it's 3v3 teams w/o BB or Cannonball, who wins that, is my question to answer. I think Ben and Peter are very strong, and I think Strode is clearly good as fuck in this regard. The Method prediction is clearly good, Edward's TP probably works on everybody but Ben so long as Ben has passive psychic defenses, but Ben would never know if Edward is trying to pry.

So can Samus shoot the webbing out of the air? Probably. From both? A little shakier, but I think yes. The stingers probably don't work on Edward, they do work on Diana, they might work on Samus but the "armor doesn't matter she uses the Morph Ball to tank the big piercing" point wasn't directly refuted. Diana, however, if she isn't worrying about the webbing due to Samus shooting it down, only has to block the stingers and Strode throwing things, which I think isn't outright unmanageable.

So I think Fem's team can make it a 4v3 for a short time when Cannonball returns, which is some cause for distraction and is a timeframe in which Edward can probably take out Strode if he's looking the wrong way and gets his shit torn off or bitten off.

This isn't so much a play-by-play as me trying my best to reason out what was argued and what might happen. I don't think Fem's team needs exactly perfect teamwork to employ a strategy that the also feed into each other to execute.

I think Fem's team wins, but the argumentation was very fucking close. Read above notes to get my takes on specific arguments I thought missed the mark at times.