Randy Credico on Loud and Clear (12/16/2017)

Supplemental document for: "Theory that Roger Stone's back channel to Wikileaks was Randy Credico", link: https://wakelet.com/wake/2d352ae9-febe-44a1-a7bb-51674a2e4bf5

Randy Credico on "Loud and Clear". Broadcast date: Dec 15, 2017.

Transcript runs from 0:25 to 59:25.

File link: https://sputniknews.com/radio_loud_and_clear/201712161060047186-hauled-before-congress/

BRIAN BECKER
As the House of Representatives casts a wider and wider net in the investigation, they are apparently looking at whether Donald Trump was somehow aided in the 2016 election by Wikileaks and Julian Assange. Congressional investigators alleged that the contact was brokered by Republican political consultant Roger Stone, and they allege further that Stone was introduced to Assange by Randy Credico [that is not the allegation as relates to Credico being the back channel; either Becker is very ignorant of the facts of the case, or is being deliberately misleading]. We spend the first hour of this show talking to Randy, who joins us in studio, here in Washington D.C. Randy is an activist, a comedian, and the former director of the William Moses Kunstler Fund For Racial Justice. Randy has been subpoenaed to testify today, before the House Intelligence Committee, where he intends to plead the Fifth. We're talking with Randy _prior_ to his appearance on Capitol Hill. Welcome, Randy...Credico. You're here in Washington, D.C., you're here at the offices of Radio Sputnik, in downtown Washington, D.C., but this isn't the last place you're going today, you're going off to Capitol Hill, what's going on?

RANDY CREDICO
Yes. Well, actually, I have a statement that I've wrote [sic], and I've re-written, uuuh basically, been tarred and feathered by the mainstream media. This connection...as the back channel. _Back channel_ between Wikileaks and Roger Stone. So...particularly MSNBC, and Chris Hayes...and David Corn! puts out something [Corn did not write the piece; it was by Dan Friedman: "Roger Stone’s Go-Between With WikiLeaks Takes the Fifth" http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/12/roger-stones-go-between-with-wikileaks-takes-the-fifth/ ] that declares in Mother Jones that I am the one. Doesn't even say, "alleged". In-between person with Roger Stone. Who delivered whatever it was from Wikileaks. So, that's been out now, for the last couple of weeks. I was named by, of course, Adam Schiff, or somebody in that- in that-

BECKER
House Intelligence.

CREDICO
Yes. That oxymoron committee. That I was the in-between person, and Roger Stone dropped the dime on me. So, I don't even know what it's all about. To be honest with you. I have no idea. I was supposed to testify today, but my lawyer said, "We're taking the Fifth." And I have a group of lawyers, and that included a- advice from somebody from the ACLU, that I should take the Fifth. Because I have a big mouth. I am a comedian.

BECKER
Yeah, yeah.

CREDICO
I am a prankster. I am a comedian.

BECKER
Yeah. The fifth would be well advised then.

CREDICO
Yes.

BECKER
Because you're- These guys are- This is a- a lynching party over there.

CREDICO
I think so. I don't know what they're looking for. You see, I think the Roger Stone thing is a- a ruse, or it's a uh some kind of artifice, to get me...to talk about...my conversations with Julian Assange, to- Who I've seen three times, this year, inside the embassy. I can say that. Because I know. There are photos of me going in there. Anybody that goes in there, there are so many spy photos. And people walking around the street, undercover. Because they spend millions of dollars a year. To keep a guy who's innocent, a publisher, inside that building. And so, I did see him three times, and if they want to talk to me about that - I can't talk about it. I interviewed him four or five times. They can- I can share that with them.

BECKER
You have a radio show. He was on your show.

CREDICO
I had a radio show. You know, I had problems on my radio show - once I started a series, and John [Kiriakou] was on it, I think you're on one of the last ones.

JOHN KIRIAKOU
Yes.

CREDICO
Thomas Drake, and-

KIRIAKOU
It was right toward the end.

CREDICO
Right. And so, I had problems with them from the very outset, by having this series, called "Julian Assange: Countdown to Freedom". And I had everybody, his mother was on it, William Binney was on, Frank Serpico was on, it all centered on Julian Assange, and this witch hunt on him, or this persecution of Julian Assange. I consider him to be a very close friend, and a very valuable, a very very valuable publisher. As John Pilger, who was on three of those shows, because- actually, all of them, because always quoted John Pilger, I played an excerpt. John Pilger said, he brings decency to the media. Actually, the media now. Journalism. Has brought decency. And I subscribe to that. So...I think that that's what they're ultimately trying to do here. Is trying to undermine Assange, it's not the Roger Stone thing. Like I said, that's just a way to get you in. Then, what do they want? Do they think that Julian Assange is actually going to...like telegraph what he's going to say two days later? I mean, that's- that's- the proposition here.

KIRIAKOU
You know it also comes from this nonsense, that Wikileaks is some sort of de facto intelligence organization.

CREDICO
Hostile one.

KIRIAKOU
Hostile. Hostile intelligence org- You can call it whatever you want, or Mike Pompeo can call it whatever he wants. The truth of the matter is, whether he likes it or not, it's a journalistic entity.

CREDICO
That's it. You know- I was talking to him on my show. Assange, about this. So, you guys already have this. Uh- do I sound paranoid? But I was talking-

KIRIAKOU
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you.

CREDICO
Yes. We were talking about this fella - Elijah Lovejoy. Who was a- abolitionist journalist, who died in 1840 [sic - 1837], the slave power, Ruffians, from Missouri [sic - the Ruffians are a very specific movement out of Missouri, and an outgrowth of the Kansas-Nebraska Act of 1854; Lovejoy died in Illinois, in 1837], killed him. But he continued and continued, prior to that, when they were threatening him, same thing with David Walker, who was a pamphleteer, he was poisoned- many others, were under threat by the slave power. And so I was trying to make that comparison, with Assange, and he says, "Well, it's really not accurate. Because those guys, the abolitionists, journalists, they only had one side. That they were infuriating." Now, with Julian Assange, he pisses off _everybody_. Right? I'm talking [KIRIAKOU: Right.] people in power, whether they be Democrats or Republicans. Whatever he has, he'll publish. [this is not true - see the Panama Papers] If he has something to publish, it will piss off people. It pissed off the Republicans when he put stuff out there on the war.

KIRIAKOU
Right, right.

CREDICO
The war logs pissed off all these conservatives, and many conservative Democrats. Chuck Schumer, [KIRIAKOU: Sure.] and even I would say, Al Franken. Al Franken has never been a- a- friend of whistleblowers. [KIRIAKOU: No.] Has never been a friend aaaah-

BECKER
Wasn't Al Franken a- a- f- Isn't he a former U.S. Senator?

CREDICO
Yes, he's a former- Well, he will be, very soon. He's certainly not very funny, I can tell you that.

BECKER
Not funny, you're funnier.

CREDICO
Yeah, well, I gotta tell you something about this guy. You know, when he was working at "Saturday Night Live", the person that did a documentary on me- by the way, there is a documentary on me, called "60 Spins Around The Sun", that was produced by Jack Black. And the director is Laura Kightlinger, who did most of the work. Black just sunk a lot of money into it. And it got a lot of awards. And so...ummm, she told- The reason I bring that up - I have to throw in a little plug for her - is that she told me, way back, when Franken left that station, "Saturday Night Live", there was a huge party there - but he wasn't invited. It was a party, it was- it was a celebratory party that he was leaving. Alright? Because he's a smug, self-involved individual, and he hasn't been good - on stuff, like the NSA stuff. When Snowden came out, he, you know, he-

KIRIAKOU
Wasn't good on that?

BECKER
He was a zero. For progressives and liberals, who thought Al Franken's going to do something, he's done- I dunno, he's done...nothing.

KIRIAKOU
Brian- Brian's heard my story, of how I met Al Franken. I was working on this Senate Foreign Relations Committee staff, and you remember Franken's assumption of office was delayed, because the election was so close, [CREDICO: Right.] it had to go through several-

CREDICO
That was a good [inaudible].

KIRIAKOU
-recounts. [responding to CREDICO] Right. And so, he finally made it to the Hill, I saw him in the hall one day, and I said, "Good morning, Senator, welcome to Washington." And he kinda looked at me, and just turned his head, and walked away. And I thought that was kinda rude-

CREDICO
Did he really?

KIRIAKOU
Yeah.

CREDICO
That was what he did to me! At Caroline's Comedy Club!

KIRIAKOU
See?

CREDICO
I went up to shake his hand, and the guy just walked away.

KIRIAKOU
He walked away, I saw him again a couple of weeks later, and I said again, "Good morning, Senator." And again, he just walked past me. The third time, I was walking out of my office, and I literally bumped into him. And I said, "Oh, I'm so sorry Senator." And he looked over my shoulder, at the plaque next to the- the- office door, and it said, uh- "Senate Foreign Relations Committee - Democratic Staff" and he said, "Oh! Are you a Democrat?" And I said, "Yes, I am." He said, "I'm sorry, I've been rude. I thought you were a Republican." And I thought to myself, "Seriously?"

BECKER
Really.

KIRIAKOU
You're not going to do very well.

CREDICO
Right. You think he would have done that to Lowell Weicker?

KIRIAKOU
Can you imagine?

CREDICO
No. No.

BECKER
Randy.

KIRIAKOU
Nor can I.

BECKER
Randy Credico is our guest. You're listening to "Loud and Clear". You can hear us every day, four to six pm, at 105.5 FM, or 1390 AM, or at Sputnik News dot com, or we are an iTunes podcast every day. Randy Credico, you're going to- you're going to the Hou- to Capitol Hill, are you- and I know you do imitations- I've heard you do Richard Nixon, do you have an Adam Schiff?

CREDICO
Uh, you know, I- It would put me to sleep, if I were to do Adam Schiff. I have to work on these voices. I can't even watch- He looks like he broke out of a- a wax museum, alright? With a little bit of make-up- He really does. A very scary looking guy. I saw him on Wolf Blitzer's show, last night, just before I did "Jimmy Dore", and he's insufferable, I can't- I probably could do a very good- But- I'm old now, I started out doing impressions way back. When I was like, seventeen, I was doing [does Hubert Humphrey, which sounds just like his Jack Nicholson] Hubert H. Humphrey back then. I was doing people like that. He wasn't such a great bargain either. Remember Hubert Humphrey? [does Nixon] And I was doing Richard Nixon, way back then. My fellow Americans. Let me make this perfectly clear. Nothing wrong with a good old witch hunt. And let's watch 'em. Sorry that the Republicans aren't part of this witch hunt right now. They should be. On that intel staff. [while he does these impressions, the background is as silent and empty of laughter as a child's funeral] So, you know, I did regular voices. [does Jack Nicholson, which is Hubert Humphrey] Like Jack Nicholson, everybody did Jack. They don't wanna know the truth. You wanna know the truth, Adam? I'll tell you the goddamn truth. [out of Nicholson / Humphrey] So, [does Dangerfield] I'll tell you, I was doing Dangerfield, back then, too, you know? I got some respect. [out of Dangerfield] [polite forced chuckles from KIRIAKOU] That was it. [does Kunstler] And, of course, Bill Kunstler. Who does Bill Kunstler? I was the only guy who did William Kunstler. The greatest civil rights attorney in the 20th century. Bill Kunstler. [out of Kunstler] He had a great sense of humor, too, by the way.

BECKER
He did, he did.

CREDICO
So, I don't know what I'm gonna say, I'm going to go over there, because I- I'll search out a couple of reporters, who have been very irresponsible. David Corn in particular, from Mother Jones - ironically, they did like, one of the best profiles of me in 1988 [unable to find this]. But he's so involved in this Russia-gate thing, I think somebody's giving him money, to promote this Russian hack theory. I guess he wants to have a war with Russia. I mean, he can send his grandchildren to Estonia if he really wants to have a war, or send them to the Polish border. Is that what they want? They really want a war! They want a soft war, not a nuclear war. They want a soft war.

BECKER
That's-

CREDICO
That's what this is all about.

BECKER
All joking aside, I mean, Corn comes from the, sortof, liberal pro-Democratic left, now with Mother Jones. He was actually a fierce critic of those of us in the anti-war movement, because he said some of us were socialists. I mean-

CREDICO
Really?

BECKER
Yeah, same kind of witch hunt-

CREDICO
Like Horowitz [David Horowitz, former sixties protester, now member of the reactionary right; a former guest on a talk show hosted by Julian Assange, who got along well with him: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PM0I5k50XsY And like Credico, Horowitz has also been a guest on the Alex Jones Show: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gz-RfqaV4Ak ].

BECKER
Yeah. The liberal version.

CREDICO
Right.

BECKER
But here, all joking aside, all joking aside...what, what, in your opinion is this all about?

CREDICO
Well, I've said it- To me - if you just take a look and deduce- Take all of the elements of this, it looks like they really want to promote- You know, Adam Schiff, gets money from this guy, Pasternak, who's a Ukrainian arms dealer [Igor Pasternak is not an arms dealer. He is a zeppelin maker; he is profiled in this issue of the New Yorker: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/02/29/a-new-generation-of-airships-is-born Credico would also baselessly assert in a tweet that Pasternak is "pro-Nazi": https://twitter.com/italkyoubored/status/859172529860214784 And this allegation all originated from a tweet by the alt-right Jack Posobiec: https://twitter.com/italkyoubored/status/859174327920603137 ]. He takes sixty percent, of his- You take a look, somebody, Max Blumenthal, did a search on him - sixty percent of his donations come from the arms industry [I have found nothing published by Blumenthal which asserts this, and I can find no proof of it anywherre]. So, these guys, they- You know, they got a six hundred ninety billion dollar- John knows that they need to spend this money. Our friend, William Binney, who I just spoke to, that you- they need to spend it on the NSA, on the CIA, and wars. And it really is- They're trying to _choke_ Russia. You know who really spoke well on this is John Pilger. John Pilger spoke about this , that this latest move, cutting off oil supplies, from Russia to Europe, that resolution, the sanctions, are really like provoking, you're really like- you're putting us all in danger. Because you're not- They're not just going to starve. You can't try to starve a nation. I mean- Listen, Russia lost four- They say twenty five million, I say it's closer to forty million people. Otherwise I'd be speaking German right now. In World War II. They- And even a- That guy Schwarzkopf [General Norman Schwarzkopf], said that. "The Russians- All- Stalingrad- and Operation Barbarossa [sic - no idea what original quote this is a scrambled sketch of]" - that was it. That's what won that war. And I gotta give the Serbs a lot of credit too. Operation Punishment, if you read William Shirer, that was a major element of that offensive. That they were able to hold them down for a while. But the Russian people, with Napoleon in 1812, they're- they're very resourceful, and tough, and people- And I'm going to get in trouble for saying this, as if I'm a Russian agent, or something like that, but-

BECKER
[mocking] How dare you praise the Soviet Union!

CREDICO
I don't want to have- I don't want to have a war...with Russia. I mean, really, they should- they should be celebrating with them, for victory over Germany. And we- It wouldn't- It wouldn't have happened without Russia. Let's be honest. Or the Soviet Union.

BECKER
Talk- Let's talk about-

CREDICO
Alright, that's enough to get me in trouble with some of my friends, but it's just the truth. And they don't want to talk about that. They should talk about that, the contribution that the Soviet Union- contribution, we say "our little contribution-" We didn't get there till 1944.

BECKER
No no, you're absolutely right. A lot of Americans died, but it was four hundred thousand, twenty five to twenty seven, perhaps more, Soviets died. The Soviet counter offensive in 1943, the largest in human history, drove the Nazis out of Eastern and Central Europe-

CREDICO
Let's not forget the siege of Leningrad, you know.

BECKER
Nine hundred days.

CREDICO
Nine hundred days. There are a couple of good books on that. Uh- But- What they suffered, and- and- We should be a little more respectful of them, and- getting back- Schiff gets money from all of these arms dealers, to move them. You gotta move 'em. You gotta move those arms. And so, whatever they're doing- It's the same thing with China, we got four hundred bases around China, let's talk about that. Let's talk about the four hundred bases, around China. Whether they be in Okinawa, or in South Korea, or they're these lily pads...strips, in- in Australia, but that's what- Russia doesn't have any- any bases, around here. China doesn't have any bases around here. We're calling them aggressive. Let's be honest about this. Have an open, honest dialogue about this. And that's what they should be talking about. On MSNBC. Who, by the way, makes their money - and this is both, this is both an insult to you, and to me. Because my father did ten years in prison. I spend a lot of time in- going to prisons, when I was running the Kunstler fund. I went to hundreds of prisons. I went to Tulia. And worked on that case for four years. And went to all these Texas prisons, so I know the suffering that goes on behind bars. They exploit that, MSNBC. They got a show called "Lock Up". It's the most disgraceful-

BECKER
Dreadful.

CREDICO
It's dreadful, it is um what do you- It's ummm It's sadistic, and it's racist, and you're taking-

KIRIAKOU
It's an exploitative show.

CREDICO
That's it.

KIRIAKOU
It really is.

CREDICO
It's voyeuristic! It's voyeuristic!

BECKER
We're speaking- We're speaking with Randy Crecico [sic]-

CREDICO
Credico.

BECKER
Credico.

CREDICO
Let me finish the MSNBC thing. They make a ton of money off of that show. I asked Howard Fineman, I said, "How could you be on a show" - or be a, or be a correspondent, or "expert", and let that, like, defile- that programming, having that on for six hours. He says, "Wait a second. Makes a lot of money, it's cheap to make, very cheap, and it pays Rachel's and Chris's salaries." [again - Credico is a frequent and flagrant liar] Alright?

KIRIAKOU
Rachel - who says every time she mentions my name, "John Kiriakou, who styles himself a whistleblower" [whatever this quote may be, this may be due to the fact that Kiriakou's initial revelations of the U.S. torture program were not with the intent of shutting it down, but when he fully supported it - the complexities of Kiriakou's revelations are in this profile in the New Yorker: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/04/01/the-spy-who-said-too-much ].

CREDICO
Did she really say that?

KIRIAKOU
Uh huh. And I told her producer that I would never appear on her show. _Ever_. So long as she disrespects me [CREDICO: Yeah.] like that.

CREDICO
She's definitely in the pocket of the Deep [State]- You know, I hate these people-

BECKER
Randy, there was a big story about Donald Trump, Jr. receiving documents from Wikileaks, ahead of time.

CREDICO
Right.

BECKER
But it turned out it wasn't ahead of time. But the dominant news, including MSNBC, including CNN, ran with it, sortof breathless headlines, CBS- Let's talk about, like the actual facts here. Because a lot of times, the headlines, the smoke, is so great, that the facts get lost. First of all, there's been no hard evidence of actual collusion between Trump and the Russians, but Trump is asserting, and this keeps happening over and over again...that what's really driving the campaign, this campaign, this witch hunt, is that the Democrats don't want to take responsibility for their own defeat. And they have to blame somebody. In other words, it's a scapegoating operation. What do you think about that?

CREDICO
Well, what do I think? Do I think that Wikileaks and Julian Assange told Hillary Clinton to stay out of Michigan? And stay out of Wisconsin? I don't think so. And I don't think he said- "You know, here, you stay out of there to-" It was a horrible campaign, anyone that was involved with it, from Paul Begala, and David Brock- They're all in it for the money. There's no ideology there.

KIRIAKOU
Right.

CREDICO
There's no ideology. It was just a way to make a lot of money, and live this wonderful life. But- You know, you have these think tanks, you know, you're trying to position yourself to win, without making any kind of commitment that would help the average person. And Trump went to those states. He went to those states. And people care about having a job. They don't care about this Russia-gate crap. They don't- The public doesn't care, if you were to say, "What are your top hundred issues?" This wouldn't register in the top hundred. Nobody cares. And they're wasting this time when they could be doing something a lot more useful for this country, _other_ than spending- the bloodletting of- of the- of the tax dollars onto this investigation- What, you got like ninety investigations, right now, going on? Uuuuh, and so, no. You wanna blame- Look, I'm not a Trump fan! There are ways- if you want to go after Trump, legitimately do it. Go out there and talk about the deportations here. Let's talk about the- that uh- dropping that MOAB bomb-

BECKER
The Mother Of All Bombs. Twenty one thousand pound bomb, just because-

CREDICO
They're supporting Saudi Arabia. And the- The killings in Yemen. They're not even covering Yemen right now. Nobody's covering- The atrocities are taking place, funding the Saudis, and they're bombing and murdering people, children, starving them, in Yemen. Same thing in Honduras. And at the same time, by the way- We're saying the Russians spend a hundred thousand dollars on Facebook, we spend- We're spending seven hundred thousand dollars, right now, I think it's- either in Hungary, or Romania elections. Seven hundred thousand dollars, coming from some State Department agency. Seven hundred thousand dollars, to give to the press there. That is a lot of money in a country that's ten percent our size.

BECKER
Yeah. Absolutely. As we know from Victoria Nuland, during the Maidan protest, and afterwards, the coup d'etat of February 20th, 2014, that overthrew-

CREDICO
That's all a lie. [referring to the protest that overthrew Yanukovich, rather than the counter-narrative put forth by Russia and here, that Yanukovich's ouster was a coup]

BECKER
-a corrupt but democratically elected government of Yanukovych, that the U.S. had spent five _billion_ dollars on Ukraine, since 1991. For democracy.

CREDICO
Right. It's never about democracy. We know that's a complete joke. We're not interested in- What we've tried- Hey look. The examples- We could be here- We could do a ten hour show. It would be Allende, Mossadegh, trying to overthrow the Sandinistas, from 1980 up until- not- 1991 [sic - attempts to overthrow the Sandinsta through various opposition forces, including the Contras, ran from 1980 to 1991], Congo, you go- Suriname, any- We- we've destroyed democracies over and over again. Our involvement in Italy's elections, back in 1948, Operation Gladio, you go to- Greek elections, or Greek repression, all that stuff...Right now, who are we supporting? Democracy - Saudi Arabia, that's a great democracy. That we're involved in. Bahrain, that's a great democracy that we're involved in [though it goes unmentioned, Bahrain would be Kiriakou's first on the record foreign assignment]. So...we're not interested in democracy. And stop saying that, insulting my intelligence. That we're interested in our- saving our democracy. How democratic is it, when they went after this guy, John? And tried to put him in jail, for giving out information, that was true, that I would like to know.

KIRIAKOU
-the American people have a right to know, we- we- own that information.

CREDICO
You're not only a whistleblower, but you are a great American. As is William Binney, is a great American. Thomas Drake. You three, that's- I'd have your heads on top of Mount Rushmore, if it were up to me.

KIRIAKOU
[laughs] There are a lot of people that would like my head on a pike, inside-

BECKER
[cross talk] He means after. Not now.

CREDICO
Yes. Replace it. Replace it. Replace it with the slaveholder that was in there. And then the- The first- The first- The first- manifest destiny overseas, which is- Teddy Roosevelt, you know? You take a look at George Washington, slaveowner. So, uh- Yeah, it would be nice to have some whistleblowers up there. Because that's what- I need- I have to go to Wikileaks to get...informed. [KIRIAKOU: Yeah.] I have to go to them. [KIRIAKOU: Right.] Like, I didn't know anything about Catalan, did anybody know what was going on in Catalan, about the independence movement? Nobody knew about that in the U.S., you had to go to Wikileaks. And then, he gets blamed by El Pais, which is their Washington Post, that's their CIA paper over there. El Pais, and they slam Julian Assange, they get pictures of a couple people from Catalan - when I was there, uuuuh November...sixth. I was there November 6th, guys, November 6th, and I was there November 13th. Uuuuum actually, I was there for Stefania Maurizi's case-

KIRIAKOU
Ah yes.

CREDICO
Alright? She's a very close friend of mine. Now, that's a good paper. La Repubblica is a good paper. She's a gutsy journalist, and you read what she has to say. She...really, she knew I was going to be on your show, and she said to say "Hello".

KIRIAKOU
Ah. She's wonderful.

CREDICO
Yes. And...Craig Murray! Craig Murray, your friend. I was just at his house, for a couple of days. And he wrote a very nice piece about me [Craig Murray, of course, tried to put out a false story of meeting an inside leaker, and first promoted this on Credico's show; the piece referred to here is: "Russophobia Goes Comic" https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2017/12/russophobia-goes-comic/ ]. He's got a lot of guts, he's in the Foreign Commonwealth Office, and he's in, he's in Uzbekistan, exposing torture. Exposing torture in Uzbekistan that the U.S. was supporting.

KIRIAKOU
Paid for with his career.

CREDICO
Yeah. Well, he- But you know what? He wrote a lot of good books, now that he's out, stuff that he couldn't do back then, and so, maybe it was a good thing that he couldn't- Because they weren't going to change it. Remember that the Brits like the U.S., they're there for corporations and they're up to no good, that's what it was all ab- War. War. War. War. War. The Brits want to have that soft war with Russia, they all want to have a soft war with Russia. You know? And keep that- the arms conveyor belt going.

BECKER
The problem with soft war, is that sometimes, or Cold War, is sometimes they become hard wars and hot wars. So, I think it's- I think what you're saying, Randy, is really really important for people. Because, sadly, a lot of people- a lot of people who consider themselves liberals and Democrats, are now sounding a lot like the Ronald Reagan Republicans of the 1980s. I- Randy, when I was-

CREDICO
[it is with a heavy heart that I say - Credico does Reagan impression] Yes, I didn't know Adam Schiff was a Democrat. He sounds like a Republican. Are you sure? He's doing the stuff that I would like. Yes. Doing some red-baiting. It's good. I think it's a good thing. [does Nixon] I like Schiff. If I must be- I mean, he's from Southern California, um, and so was I. So was Reagan. Reagan lived there too. They must be...Republicans, of the old guard Republicans, that were Cold War hawks. Because they sound like them [silence in the background is that of  a cavern, in the deepest underground of the earth].

BECKER
That's Richard Nixon, everyone [there is weariness in the voice of this Sputnik cheerleader, like that of a parent having sit through the piano recitals of other people's children]. We have Richard Nixon in studio. Richard, another question. When...when the Bernie Sanders forces were vanquished after day one of the Democratic Party [sic - he means first day of the Democratic National Convention], the Democratic Convention was chanting "USA! USA! USA! USA!" You must have been very pleased.

CREDICO
That was really nice. [does Sanders] I don't know if Bernie Sanders supported that himself. I was a big supporter. Of Mr. Sanders [it's Credico doing Sanders, talking about his support for Sanders - so yeah, a painstakingly detailed impression]. Although he wasn't that good on foreign policy. I must say - I wasn't that thrilled with his foreign policy. Domestic policy was good. But foreign policy, I dunno. He said something nice about Saudi Arabia. Well. That doesn't mix well with me. [goes to Nixon] But let me say this. It was nice. [does Reagan] Reagan would have loved it, they're all out there shouting - "Go U.S...A. Go U.S.A. U.S.A." It seemed like it was a- a- it was one of those organized groups from uh uh central casting. And then they sent them over to- to the other convention, because that's all they say. "U.S.A. U.S.A."

BECKER
It is.

CREDICO
[still doing Reagan] Nationalism is really good. To get people all confused.

BECKER
And the evil empire is right there.

KIRIAKOU
Yeah.

BECKER
It was- Reagan had the Soviet evil empire-

CREDICO
Yes. We're going to blow up the Soviet Union. In five minutes. [out of Reagan] Remember that one?

KIRIAKOU
I sure do.

CREDICO
[doing Reagan] He actually said that.

KIRIAKOU
Mike was hot.

CREDICO
[doing Reagan] Yes. Did I say that? It must have been- Well- [leave Reagan] He used to come up- He was a great- With Reagan, you didn't even have to write for him. He would just like, just read what he said. You know-

BECKER
Yeah.

CREDICO
[does Reagan] Well...the other day, a C-123 transport plane, en route from uh Andrews Air Force Base to famine stricken Ethiopia accidentally de- went off course, five thousand miles, to uh Central America. The plane, which was equipped with foodstuffs, disguised as M-16s, AK-47s, and grenade launchers, was cut down somewhere over Nicaragua, and uh, I'll have more disinformation as it becomes available [KIRAKOU laughs - he applied for the CIA in 1988, and started duty in 1990].

BECKER
We're speaking with Randy Credico, he's going to leave the studio soon, where you have a very friendly- friendly-

CREDICO
A firing squad out there.

BECKER
He's going directly to a firing squad.

CREDICO
Right.

BECKER
Also known as the House of Representatives-

CREDICO
Well, I'm not going to go in, I have taken the Fifth. But I came down here anyway, to let them know I'm around, I'm going to talk around like Diogenes, and put a lantern in their face [he did not do this].

BECKER
You know, the Fifth Amendment is an interesting amendment, it says, you don't have a right to incriminate- you have the right not to incriminate yourself. But then, the media takes the Fifth Amendment, if you say, "Yeah, I have this constitutional right, it's called the Fifth Amendment-", and you say we're going to apply it, then the media says "Well, oh, you must be- You must be hiding something-"

KIRIAKOU
It's not just the media.

CREDICO
David Corn-

KIRIAKOU
It's not just the media. There was a recent court ruling, in a federal district court, saying that jurors can take a witness takking the Fifth as a tacit admission of guilt.

CREDICO
I didn't see that.

KIRIAKOU
Yeah, it's just in the last three or four weeks.

CREDICO
[says it again as Reagan, for no reason at all, except to inflict more pain ona suffering world] I did not see that.

KIRIAKOU
Yeah.

CREDICO
Are you serious?

KIRIAKOU
Yeah.

CREDICO
Wow.

KIRIAKOU
This is new. It's gotta be- appealable, it's unconstitutional-

BECKER
And- We should be able to take the First Amendment-

KIRIAKOU
That's right.

BECKER
The right to speak out, the right to-

KIRIAKOU
Pete Seeger did-

BECKER
Yeah.

KIRIAKOU
Before the- the- whatever it was, the Senate- [cross talk, including CREDIO again doing Reagan] version of the Un-American Activities Committee. Yeah, he took the First Amendment.

BECKER
Yeah, a lot of people in the witch hunt, back then, took the First Amendment, but those people went to prison.

KIRIAKOU
Yes.

BECKER
They were film producers, [KIRIAKOU: That's right.] they were the Hollywood Ten, they went to prison.

CREDICO
Dalton Trumbo. Ed Dmytryk.

KIRIAKOU
That's right.

CREDICO
I saw-

BECKER
They took the First Amendment.

CREDICO
-by the way, John Huston, he narrated the "Hollywood Ten" [only entry for something like this, "The Hollywood Ten", is here, and features no credit for Huston: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0172563/ ], and I saw it three times, preparing for this thing here.

BECKER
Yeah.

CREDICO
I wasn't going to be public, it was going to be behind closed doors, and I took the Fifth...because I'm not- If I was forced to do it...if they were to grant me mercenary- [sic] grant me uh whatdoyoucallit- immunity!

BECKER
Immunity.

CREDICO
-right now, I would say, on one condition: I will testify, if it's in public. Because they let all these IC [intelligence ocmmunity] guys, with shaved heads, like Hayden and uh- They all look like Werz [sic] from uh, not Werz, but Kurtz, from "Apocalypse Now". They all look like Brando from "Apocalypse Now". All these guys from the IC. Hayden, and Clapper, right? So, these guys now, are suddenly everyone's hero. As they spied on everybody-

BECKER
They're defending our democracy.

CREDICO
Everyone- David Corn and Mother Jones loves Clapper! And Chris Hayes loves Clapper! A guy who comes from a labor background, that works for MSNBC. He used to be with the Nation. He is a big fan of Clapper. They have him on. He lied in public. Now. Many times. Uh- So- They get to go and do their stuff publicly. And then I have to do mine privately. Why don't they- In the old days, the IC guys, guys like Richard Helms said everything behind closed doors, and then they would rape the people like me, in public. Right?

BECKER
Well, let me ask you, though, because this is a big deal. When you get called before a House Intelligence Committee, you're taking the Fifth Amendment, but you are speaking now. In other words, you're- you're saying that you have the right to a Fifth Amendment, before them, but you're telling your story. In other words, your idea must be - I must tell the public what's really going on-

CREDICO
I'm talking about it, peripherally, around what they...want from me. Because I don't know what they want from me. But what I will not talk about is any conversations I've had outside of my radio show, WBAI, with Roger Stone, or with Julian Assange. And- I'm not even going to dignify the charge that I was some back channel guy, alright? I'm not even going to dignify that. I am just not your- You're not going to try to pry out of me- And this is a tool to undermine the protection that we have, as journalists. And I was a journalist. I was a comedian for a long time, a civil rights activist, I ran the William Moses Kunstler Fund For Racial Justice, I went to prisons. I got a lot of- changes under those Rockefeller drug laws in New York, and they now are uh besmirching me. And my name, and- and- You know, challenging my commitment to progressive changes in this country...by just- by innuendo here! So, I'm not going to dignify that. I'm going to take the high road, you're not going to get to any- I'm not talking about you, I'm talking about the House Intel Committee [presumably, one of the hosts did the point-at-chest "Me?" gesture]. _Any_ of my private conversations with those two gentlemen. Because I did it off the record. With them.

BECKER
I admire you a lot...as I-

KIRIAKOU
I do too.

BECKER
-admire John Kiriakou, who's also in the studio. The- The thing is, if people don't stand up, if they don't stand up for basic rights, their basic rights and the basic rights of other people, those rights are extinguished. We don't need the government to take them away, if we give them away. And you're standing up for your right.

CREDICO
This might be the last amendment we have.

KIRIAKOU
Yeah.

CREDICO
Is the Fifth Amendment. I mean, the Fourth Amendment, really, is like- not worth the paper it's written on at this point, because they can wiretap, you know they can- talk to William Binney, you get really nervous.

BECKER
Well, I asked William Binney, because the Fourth Amendment says the government can't search and seize your property without probable cause. I asked Bill Binney, "Is there any phone call we make, is there any email we send, is there any communication that we have whatsoever, that the NSA does not have?" And he said, "No." [this is false - and becomes a problem when you critique the NSA, if you make such false claims, the true claims about narrower and smaller collection programs are dismissed as not so bad, compared to what is possible]

CREDICO
No. No. I just spoke to him. That's what he said. You know? "Randy, they- everything they say is recorded-" so that meta-data base in Utah, building out here, or is it in Fort Meade, I don't know. They got these huge meta-data bases, spending hundreds of billions of dollars, wasting all this money, the- look, it goes back to Binney and- and- and- Trailblazer versus Pathfinder, Trailblazer versus Thin Thread [two different surveillance programs at the NSA]. Thin Thread, which he came up with, but, you know- This guy, Hayden, you know, who's there all the time- He actually sent me a tweet, recently, like a smiley, you know [CREDICO had replied to him in a conversation, and Hayden replied back. Afterwards, Hayden blocked him]. This guy.

BECKER
Really?

CREDICO
Yes. I said something about him, and he just sends me something back. It was a smiley. I thought that was interesting.

KIRIAKOU
He cancelled a...a debate with me. At George Mason University in September. We were going to debate the CIA's torture program. He wouldn't appear on stage with me.

CREDICO
Wow.

KIRIAKOU
Coward.

CREDICO
That is amazing.

BECKER
His own version of the Fifth.

CREDICO
Why- Why would he? He wants to go on, but they're going to ask- throw him nothing but softballs.

KIRIAKOU
That's why he loves- That's why he loves MSNBC. And CNN.

CREDICO
It's an infomercial. It's _not_ news. Alright?

KIRIAKOU
I agree.

BECKER
And just so people-

CREDICO
I don't like to echo anything Trump says - alright? - because I get Trump fight- I don't want to use "fake news", it's just an infomercial.

KIRIAKOU
It is.

CREDICO
Just an infomercial, you got- you gotta- Remember "The McLaughlin Group"?

KIRIAKOU
Sure. Sure.

CREDICO
You got- I did a joke, and Noam Chomsky stole the joke from me. But he quoted me. You get five points of view. On "The McLaughlin Group". The right, the far right, the extreme right, the fascist Reich...and the third Reich. That's what you get, on the "McLaughlin Group". You know? That's what these shows are. You have...you have "Rachel Maddow", see this complete fabricated show on the uh on the dossier? By her? Could you believe that?

KIRIAKOU
Terrible. Just terrible.

CREDICO
What a horrible thing-

KIRIAKOU
She just makes it up as she goes along.

CREDICO
-invents it, and she throws things in there that are complete lies.

BECKER
Well, talking about the dossier, Fusion GPS, that funded the dossier- Steele dossier. And then that was funded by Republican opponents of Trump, and then the Hillary Clinton campaign, and then the FBI, under James Comey, offered to pay for it. Well- Well, they too the Fifth. When they were called before Congress, and it seemed ot bother none of the members of the House Intelligence Committee. How come?

CREDICO
The same reason why, when Hil- three or four Hillary Clinton staff members were called before them, and they took the Fifth [this was in a civil suit brought by Judicial Watch, a reactionary right political group, and not before Congress]. I didn't see anything by David Corn...about that. He didn't say they must be guilty. Because they took the Fifth- And Glenn Greenwald, uh, in my defense, pointed it out to him. What the Fifth Amendment is. _Many people_, who have done nothing wrong, will plead the Fifth. I don't even know where this is going! {sounds very agitated during last statement] You understand? No idea. What is in there. They may just be lying that this is- that I'm Stone's in-between person with Assange, it may be something else. And I'm not going to sit down and answering questions, of something I know nothing about, unless they give me immunity, because if I say "red" and the color's actually blue, and I'm color blind, actually, they'll charge me with perjury. I don't want to be the next Martha Stewart, in this affair. I mean, the FBI lies a lot. They entrap people. You know, it's like-

BECKER
That's what they do.

CREDICO
Yes, it's like- My joke, I said, I'm sure this will put me in- really well with the FBI, but I said, "The FBI today foiled another terror plot, that was hatched by the FBI." [no audible laughter] Alright? So. They entrap people, trick Haitians, got no money, go to the Sears building and blow it up, and so they- "Look at what we did! We foiled a HUGE-" You know, three people living in a- you know, in a tent, on the Miami Beach. Just got off the boat. They were going to blow up the Sears building. Alright? [cross talk] Can we have some more money? We need some more cash.

KIRIAKOU
It's how they get promoted.

CREDICO
-more people like this.

KIRIAKOU
It's how they get promoted over there.

CREDICO
Yeah.

KIRIAKOU
I just make up these threats, and they-

CREDICO
Well, you realize that, the older you get. Right? I realize this is all for public consumption. And this is to influence Congress, and for them to open up the piggy banks for their uh you know-

KIRIAKOU
J. Edgar Hoover was a master at doing that.

CREDICO
Right.

KIRIAKOU
And even since his death, the FBI has always, always, always, seen its budget uh-

CREDICO
Increase?

BECKER
Yeah.

KIRIAKOU
By Congress, even when they didn't ask for a budget increase.

CREDICO
Right. "We only want a hundred billion-" "We're going to give you two hundred billion, just as long as you don't investigate us. Right?"

KIRIAKOU
Exactly.

CREDICO
So, they give them what they want, ahead of time, we're going to give the military more, six billion- It's like- It's like more than the entire world combined. It's like our prison population, you know, here we got two point five million people in prison, another ten million that are on probation, or parole, or whatever...maybe more than that, probably. That- We got twenty five percent of the prison population and we keep talking about China and Russia, we got twenty five percent of...the world's prison population, in our- And they keep talking about this democracy, that's being underminded [sic] Yes! It was underminded [sic]. This democracy, whatever is left of it, by - guess who? By the Democrats! [a dread comes over the listener - the Sanders imitation starts again] It was when they went after Bernie Sanders, who should've been the nominee! Let's be honest. But Debbie Wasserman Schultz, and other people, of her ilk, they underminded [sic] that democratic process. That's what they did. They tampered with our democracy. [leaves Sanders behind] And that's where the House Intel Committee should be pointing their guns, is an investigation of the- undermining of our democracy by the DNC. [KIRAKOU: Amen.] That's the real story here.

KIRIAKOU
I agree. I agree completely.

CREDICO
Otherwise, the guy they don't want, wouldn't have been in, because he would've won.

BECKER
You know, I wonder, Randy, what you think about the role of the Republican Party, though, because...the House Intelligence Committee, and the Senate committees, they're majority Republicans. It seems to me, that while there is a partisan element of this, in other words, again, on behalf of the Democratic Party, it seems that...and I think by the end of the day, even if there's no actual proof, like - none, no proof at all, of collusion, that the House Republicans, and the House Democrats will continue with the same mantra - "Yes, of course, Russia did interfere, Russia did something, undoubtedly" - and as a consequence, the political environment is being poisoned in such a way, that if you don't join the witch hunt, if you don't join it, if you don't start to echo that mantra, then you might be a witch. In other words, that's the nature of a witch hunt.

CREDICO
Everyone is...scared. There. We're all scared. Uh, that they, you know, could be themselves tarnished. By not being Cold War hawks again. Uh, but I- Look, these Republicans on the- This guy Gowdy, and Nunes, they- they remind me of- Like Strom Thurmmond, and those characters, from yore. We got some of those guys back again, which is good for an impression. Right? But uh- Look, they're all- They're all on board, because they support...wars. They're all going to be on board, and this is...the way, this is the vehicle that they're driving. Right now. To get- To keep the war machine alive. And we gotta have wars, and the economy, and- And look, I'm not a scholar or something, it's just that it's obvious. You don't have to be a scholar to see, that, you know, since World War II, since the- since Korea, we've been on a continuous war footing, ever since.

BECKER
Yeah.

KIRIAKOU
It's true.

BECKER
I mean, if you go through the litany of American wars, since World War II, you know, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Panama - I mean, you can keep going-

CREDICO
Let's not forget - Angola, we were involved there...we were involved in Namibia, we were involved in Nicaragua, El Salvador, we had counter-insurgencies in all of these countries, we've been involved, and there's been a lot of money spent...and the CIA spent a lot of money on this, for their operations. And, right now they're- Yes, we've been on a war footing ever since. There hasn't been a moment that we were not in conflicts somewhere.

BECKER
So maybe that's what it is, John. [cross talk] Maybe this is just like, there isn't a real enemy, like the Soviet Union was a real enemy, during the Cold War. Soviet Union, I mean, Russia was on its knees, in the 1990s, you couldn't really make out Boris Yeltsin-led Russia as a siginificant global enemy. But Russia's no longer on its knees. In other words, it's overcome the terribleness of the 1990s, and as a consequence of the fact that it's a big country, a big economy, it has alliances with others, like China, it has nuclear weapons...it's there, it's a convenient enemy.

CREDICO
Right. So, very easy, we got a straw man over there. And you keep, you make Putin look like he's Satan- And you keep amping that up, and trying to get public support. I don't think they're even looking for public support. Because the public has no idea what's going on. They just want congressional support, of these programs. We're all on the same page. They want to continue these operations, uh, over there, and, it's really too bad, and like- Getting back to choking them economically, when, you know, with gas, natural gas, and oil. Not letting them export the- And you gotta survive. They have to survive. This is a country with nuclear weapons. Alright? What do you want, push them to the brink? I don't. You know? I don- What really bothers them, is that this real threat with North Korea, right now, which we basically have helped create, that they have, they're not looking expand anywhere, but they're just- that nuclear- the fact that they have a nuclear weapon, right now, is an inconvenient problem for these guys, because they prefer to have the soft war. They want wars! But they don't want this. [BECKER: Yeah.] They don't want this, with Korea. With North Korea. They want to have, like, I said, a long- Look, sixteen _years_, in Afghanistan. Sixteen years. It's just unbelievable. We've been there that long. We supposedly won World War II in Europe, and we did it in two years. And we can't uuuuuh who's the enemy, in- I don't think we won a war. We are winning. We're keeping the arms flow alive there. And we're getting the oil, through the pipeline in Uzbekistan. And whatever's going on with the p- I don't want to get into conspiracies with the poppies and all of that [reference to heroin smuggling, and past involvement of the CIA in heroin trade in Southeast Asia], that's there, and the Tritium, and everything else, but we are there for sixteen years...and there's commodities that are involved. I know it's geo-political, but there's also commodities. You notice we didn't stay in uh in uh Somalia? Way back in the nineties, when Clinton was there. Why? They didn't have a commodity. They had this stuff called khat, K-H-A-T, the only thing- you need five hundred thousand gallons of it, to get like a mild buzz [stimulant like amphetamine, more powerful than suggested here, that you chew - mentioned in Mark Bowden's "Black Hawk Down"]. And that was their-

KIRIAKOU
It's like drinking a cup of coffee.

CREDICO
Yeah, that was their big export, was- was- I mean, their- That was their big commodity. We're in Colombia, through Venezuela right now, there's commodities everywhere. And we want those commodities, and it- Wherever there's commodities, we're there. We're there. Why are we in Niger? Tell me. Why are we in Niger?

KIRIAKOU
Randy, when I was with the Senate Foreign Relations Committee staff, I made a trip to Afghanistan. Because I wanted to do-

CREDICO
I need some khat by the way. Honestly. Can you get me-

KIRIAKOU
I can't find anymore. I'm told that it's sold at the Arabic store at Falls Church, but what do I know. So, anyway, uh-

BECKER
That might have been a euphemism for coffee, was it?

CREDICO
No no, I was joking. I have enough coffee over here.

BECKER
If you want to get more coffee- [cross talk]

CREDICO
I'm trying to liven up the place, right now. We're getting very serious.

KIRIAKOU
I went to Afghanistan in 2010, and I wanted to do a study on- on opium poppy production. So I...I fly down to Helmand province, to the provincial capital of Lashkargah.

CREDICO
Really?

KIRIAKOU
Yeah, I go out in a jeep to meet with a poppy farmer. And I say to this guy, very innocently...why do you grow all of this poppy? Why don't you grow things that have two growing seasons, like- like winter wheat, or tomatoes, or onions, or- you know, pomegranates. And he looked at me with disgust. And he said, "You know, in 2001, the CIA told me I could grow all the poppy I wanted, if I told them where the Arabs were. And now you're coming here and you're telling me I can't grow poppy? I wish you guys would make up your minds."

CREDICO
Wow, that is an amazing story.

KIRIAKOU
And I said to him: [CREDICO: Wow.] "The CIA told you, you could grow poppy?" And then my military handler said, "I think uh- I think we need to move on with the- threat in the area. We need to fly back to the base."

CREDICO
There's a lot of unanswered questions about Afghanistan.

KIRIAKOU
You can say that again.

CREDICO
Sixteen years _there_, and you take a look at them, is that they've never lost at home. You know what I mean?

KIRIAKOU
Ever. [cross talk] In twenty five years.

CREDICO
If you were a betting man, you always take Afghanistan at home, with the points [this isn't bad, and KIRIAKOU has an honest outburst of laughter]. Alright? Because they are undefeated, like the '84 uuuh '84 Bears, alright [also not bad, but the "uuuuuuh" ruins the timing, so not much reax]?

KIRIAKOU
That's right, that's right.

CREDICO
The Bears. And this is something - they're terrible on the road, they can't win a war on the road, but at home, they're undefeated. They beat everybody, Hannibal, everybody, alright? Uh so, not Hannibal, but the other one-

KIRIAKOU
Alexander the Great.

CREDICO
Alexander the Great, and others. That try to march through there- It's a very- You read Craig Murray's book, called "Sikunder Burnes", about Alexander Burns and the First Afghan-Anglo War, of 1839 to '42, and which everybody that was there, including Kabul, that was sent in from India, that were there, fourteen thousand people, they put in this guy, by the name of- I forgot his name [Shuja Shah Durrani Khan], but Dost Mohammad [Khan] was the guy they were supposed to put in- He was accepted by the people, but the guy they put in - was not. Rejected. And so, all fourteen thousand went through the Kandahar Pass, got slaughtered. Going back. Alright? This is in 1842, and they were sending lying reports, they were called "blue books", to Palmerston, from Afghanistan, and from Kabul, to London. And...he would just, like, change- change the transcripts, from this guy Sikunder Burnes, who was sending the truth. And they said, well, we want to have a war. We want to contain him.

BECKER
We have gone- We have gone from the House Intelligence Committee, to the Anglo-

CREDICO
But it was Russia that was involved in that too!

BECKER
-Afghan War, of 1842, we're speaking with Credico-

CREDICO
Got no credible-

BECKER
Randy- Credible-

CREDICO
Yes.

BECKER
And Randy...is leaving "Loud and Clear", in a short while, to go before the House Intelligence Committee-

CREDICO
No, I'm not. I'm not going before them.

BECKER
He's not going before them. He's going to walk around them, and he's pleading the Fifth-

CREDICO
I've already done that.

BECKER
You've done that.

CREDICO
I've already done that. They've accepted that so far, don't know what's happening from here. But uh- I just gotta make a concluding...

BECKER
You want to go back to Afghanistan.

CREDICO
-saying that, back then, they were lying about Russia's intentions, in the Afghanistan [sic] and India. They lied about it. So they could have a war back then. The Brits were. You go back then, and the Russians had no designs! It turned out, they had no designs _at all_...on expansion. But that's what they used, to put in more troops, and send in more arms, and to acquire more territory.

BECKER
Randy, I want to ask you, we don't have that much longer. I want to ask you about Wikileaks-

CREDICO
We've only done ten minutes!

BECKER
I know. Time flies, though. [said like a babysitter who can't wait to leave and get paid] Uuuuh- [pause] [CREDICO: Wikileaks.] In terms of Wikileaks, in terms of Julian Assange, I mean, we now have U.S. government officials, we know in the U.S. Congress, people have called for Assange to be executed, to be assassinated-

CREDICO
Hillary Clinton!

BECKER
Yeah.

CREDICO
She said, by drone. [this claim has been debunked: https://www.snopes.com/julian-assange-drone-strike/ ]

BECKER
Yeah. By drone, that's right.

CREDICO
And, you know, people take her seriously. With Qaddafi. You know, she was after him, and she got him.

BECKER
Yeah. We came, we saw, he died.

CREDICO
That's what they would like with Assange. That's what they would like. That's what she wanted, and...uh, obviously, to either keep them there, or have him...mysteriously disappear somewhere, in one of these black sites.

BECKER
The United Nations, a very important committee in the United Nations, said "Julian Assange is actually a victim of forcible detention." And thus, he should be freed. The Swedish government has no pending criminal charges against Julian Assange-

CREDICO
They never did, by the way. Never did. The whole thing- They told them, not to interview Assange. The British government. That's why I was there the last time, is to cover a High Court uh inquiry, into the Crown Prosecutor Services, withholding of emails, to the Special uh Swedish Prosecutor, prosecuting attorney, uh Ms. Ny [Marianne Ny], saying "Please don't come interview him! Because we know he'll be cleared!" And then we'll lose our pretext to keep him here. That's what that was all about, and they- they won't release those emails. But they did say, yesterday, that this organization, is a _media group_. That this is a legitimate journalistic organization, Wikileaks. That's the one good part of yesterday's finding, by this-

BECKER
The British High Court.

CREDICO
Yes.

BECKER
Yeah.

CREDICO
I was there for the entire two day soporific proceedings, by the way.

BECKER
Yeah. So so, first of all, he's been there for five years. You've talked to him-

CREDICO
Five. June 16th will be six.

BECKER
Six years. When you talk to Julian Assange, what...I mean, what's he like- I mean, what is he- What is he telling you?

CREDICO
I can't tell you.

BECKER
I don't mean that stuff! I mean, what is he telling you in terms of how it is to be, like, inside the Ecuadorian embassy?

CREDICO
Well, you know, it's- All I can tell you, I had lunch with him, thre- Dinner with him, uh- It's expensive, because I always go to Harrods, because I know the food can't be poisoned in time. So I go to Harrods, and you get the fish 'n' chips, which is twenty seven pounds, which is like thirty eight dollars, you get some uh, lobster roll - the only cheap thing, twelve pounds, sixteen dollars. And so, we go over there, and we talk. We just, we have...conversations, talking about dogs, alright? He had dogs in Western Australia [they're briefly brought up at the end of this interview by Randy Credico with Christine Assange, Julian's mother: https://pastebin.com/k6skDxBD ]. Uh- I think Western Australia, or in Melbourne, he had dogs, and he misses the dogs...and, you know, he's such a gentle, committed individual to anti-, he's really anti-war. And we're not on the same page. I mean, you know, look: it's amazing the strange bedfellows uuuuuh in this mix. William Binney is not some left-winger, I mean, he's a conservative in many ways, you know? I don't even know Ray McGovern's overall politics, I'm considered a lefty, and I am. I'm a proud...lefty. Right? So...I'm not- I don't think Assange is on that same page with me, on everything, but the fact is, he's a journalist, and he- and he is anti-war [both Credico and Assange are entirely indifferent to wars waged by Russia; Credico has never condemned the wars in Chechnya, and is enthusiastic support of the Russian bombing campaign in Syria - as long as they are not committed by the United States, Credico can be a full throated supporter of war crimes; the same, of course, can obviously be said of Sputnik and Russia Today]. Which is what everybody should be, anti-war. And so, all of these excuses, to go to war, all these lies, and pretexts, I think he's exposed them. And the- And the war crimes, the war crimes- what happens in war, it's not a clean business.

BECKER
If- If the U.S. media had- had shown what- what Wikileaks showed, which they could have,

KIRIAKOU
Sure. They actually choose not to.

BECKER
The Iraq-

CREDICO
The Guardian did. The Guardian-

BECKER
But I mean, like, if the American people, in general, if they- A hundred million Americans had seen video images like that, where you have U.S. Apache helicopter pilots sortof cavalierly shooting down, machine gunning civilians and journalists, and, you know, like, talking about it, sortof, "Good job-"

CREDICO
Right.

BECKER
-I mean, would have made a huge impact on the consciousness. A huge impact. Cronkite would have shown something like that.

CREDICO
Yes. Yeah, probably - you know, John Pilger, if you go to his website, John Pilger dot com, you will see sixty one brilliant films, and one of them is uh the latest one is "The Coming War On China", or "With China", and then there's one, "The War You Don't See"..."The War You Don't See", you have to see that. Assange is in that one. There's...every one, going back to Nicaragua, and the atrocities that were committed- In Vietnam, he was in Vietnam! In 1970. Alright? He was there. And he interviewed troops, way before anybody else. That's the reason why he's won so many awards. He was a young man, there, and he...has survived fifty years till right now, in the British library, they are paying tribute to him. But you can see all of his films there. Going back to our involvement in Mexico. Or Nicaragua. The assassination of Sandino [Augusto César Sandino, Nicaraguan revolutionary leader]. And many other films, that uh that he has brilliantly put together. It is a library, people should go to John Pilger dot com - he doesn't make any money of this, but you can see most of his films.

KIRIAKOU
Yeah, yeah-

BECKER
He was our guest here, yesterday, actually.

KIRIAKOU
Yesterday.

CREDICO
He was?

BECKER
Yeah.

CREDICO
Oh my goodness!

KIRIAKOU
And if you go to IMDb dot com too, and type in "John Pilger", you look at his filmography, and it is- it is really a history, of...global politics, over the last forty or forty five years.

CREDICO
Yes. Since 1970. He made his first documentary...about uuuuh Vietnam. In 1970. And he went to Cambodia after that. And uh, I'm sure he talked about it yesterday. He went to Nicaragua, he goes, you know, domestic stuff. Repression of aborigines, in uh Australia. He's really a dedicated person, and he's the kind of journalist that gives you hope. We hope that more people will become like him. He could have been Chris Hayes, and made two million dollars a year. Chris Hayes, right now, if he wants this on his record, it's to me- it's- it's basically, a rap sheet. You know, this is- He's done a five year stretch here at MSNBC, committing uuuh journalistic crimes. By spouting out lies. And he could have been John Pilger. He could have been John Pilger. You know? You can make a little bit of money, I mean, Glenn Greenwald has always been a great- There are good journalists out there. But, you know, that money is very, it's so seductive. It is so seductive. That's how you get people to turn on each other. You know, in some of these conflicts. Right? You get these people to fight one another. Just...dangle some cash in front of them. But he's really done a mis-service [sic], or dis-service uuuuh to the public, and to his own legacy. Guys like Wolf Blitzer - all of them. Not every single one, but most of them. Most of them. I mean, take a- this woman at the Pentagon, what's her name, Barbara Starr [CNN Correspondent]? She may as well get a paycheck from the Pentagon. You know?

KIRIAKOU
Well, look at Ken Dilanian.

CREDICO
Oh!

KIRIAKOU
Look at Ken Dilanian. He's the worst example of them all. He had been at the L.A. Times, now he's at whatever it is, CBS News or NBC, or whatever [Intelligence and national security reporter for the NBC News Investigative Unit, taken from Dilanian's twitter bio]. And he was actually sending his articles to the CIA for their clearance, before sending them to his own editor.

CREDICO
You think Operation Mockingbird is dead? They just changed the name of it. [there is, of course, a heavy irony in this conversation taking place on Sputnik Radio, where, it has been heavily documented, the Russian government oversees programming and guests, and certain topics - the war in Chechnya, criticism of the war in Donbass, the persecution of political dissidents in Russia or LGBT citizens in Chechnya under Ramzan Kadyrov, and even that the case for Trump-Russia collusion is very, very strong - are completely verboten]

KIRIAKOU
Well, it's-

CREDICO
It's still going.

KIRIAKOU
Apparently, they do it for free.

CREDICO
Yeah, he prob- I'm sure he gets something on the side.

KIRIAKOU
They don't even have to pay him any more.

CREDICO
I'm sure he gets something on the side. And if it's-

KIRIAKOU
An invitation to the Christmas party.

CREDICO
Right.

BECKER
You're listening to "Loud and Clear" with Brian Becker and John Kiriakou. Randy...Credico, is our guest...Randy, where do- We have three minutes left. Time flies. Where- Where does it end, I mean, where is this all going, because we see in the last few years, we had the Occupy Movement, the Black Lives Matter movement, before that the immigrant rights movement take off, and at the same time, you have these countervailing forces, where, at least, within the elites, this is my own opinion - the Democratic Party, the Republican Party, moving actually, in spite of the Bernie Sanders movement - actually moving all to the right. How does the grass roots intervene here?

CREDICO
It doesn't look good. I'm sure Pilger's said that it's ominous right now, and everything that's going on at this point is a harbinger of bad things to come. This is what Pilger had said. I've interviewed him many times, and I don't know. Bill Kunstler said there's something in the human- something in its DNA that's evil. And so you're seeing this constantly being manifested, by what's happening, in our times. I mean, you would think - when they look back at this point, as you look back - Wow! That really happened, the 15th century, the inquisition happened, the 16th- That actually happened? They were actually torturing, cutting out livers- Hey! It's happening now! It's happening right now! But the only thing you can do is struggle, you only have one short life, and as you wanna just eat, and live well, live John Podesta, and have nice, you know, meals in this neighborhood - you can do that. That's- If that's- If you want to commit your life to that, you'll be forgotten.

BECKER
That's the thing about William Kunstler. He did commit his life. [CREDICO: Yes.] And he helped a lot of people, and he was a spokesperson for, and an advocate for, others who are risking _everything_, and change did come. Even though there's this pushback, after we have change, there's pushback from those who don't want change, but this it seems to me, is the epic struggle, and what disappoints people, or should disappoint them, is that if you're looking to the Democratic Party to be the anti-Trump resistance, you're going straight to uh uh-

CREDICO
A trapdoor.

BECKER
A trapdoor.

KIRIAKOU
Keep looking.

CREDICO
A trapdoor. Yeah, it's a primrose path [an old phrase, but given Credico's love of old films, most likely a reference to a 1940 film, about a woman and her choice not to become a sex worker: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primrose_Path_(film) ]. Okay? Going and following the Democrats, because they still haven't changed their tune. They're playing the same uh war tune. They may as well get Jimmy Cagney from "Yankee Doodle Dandy", to open up for them, during the- the- these hearings. You know? "I'm the kid with all the candy, Yankee Doodle Dandy". So, uh- [seems taken aback by the abyss of silence] "Over here, over there, [riffing]" I used to do a good Cagney. I used to do it in Vegas when I was there. You know. But Kunstler, by the way, yes, he had to- you had to commit yourself to struggle, as the great Al Lewis, who played Grandpa Munster, on "The Munsters" said, "There's nothing more invigorating than _struggle_. To get on the streets." The asses of the masses have to be on the street, if you want change, you gotta get on the streets, you gotta keep fighting uuuh you just can't fall, and let your _life_ be useless. You gotta get out there and struggle. That's all there is to it. I mean, it's all I've done. I've been out there- I mean, I got arrested five times at Occupy Wall Street. One was a snatch and grab. Just a charge to identify me. I've been arrested more times than Willie Sutton [bank robber of the 1930s], I think. So. This goes...way back uuuh to before that, you know, you gotta get arrested, civil disobedience, you know, um, Thoreau. Read Thoreau. Get involved in civil disobedience. Don't go out and- and think, in a force, for two years [sic]. You know.

BECKER
Yeah. John Kiriakou, you, you went to prison, for two and a half years, because you told the American people about torture. When George W. Bush said there wasn't torture. I mean, it seems, to me, that individuals actually can make a difference, movements obviously make a difference, individuals coming together, there is strength in numbers, I- I think Randy is kindof a hero right now.

KIRIAKOU
Absolutely.

BECKER
Because he's not, you know, he's taking the Fifth, but he's also not shutting up. He's telling the truth about what this really is.

KIRIAKOU
You know, I- I probably, naively believe that there were no more people like Pete Seeger, uh, in 1950. who stood up and did not take the Fifth, but- took the First, but continued to speak out, and did it because he knew it was the right and constitutional thing to do. Randy Credico is doing the same thing today. He's standing up to these guys. I know personally, how easy it is to be bullied, especially in a city like Washington, bullied by the Justice Department, bullied by Special Prosecutors, bullied by Congress. Most people, almost all people, fold under the pressure...Randy Credico, you have not folded under the pressure.

CREDICO
Well, they haven't put me in one of those black sites in Uzbekistan, yet, so we don't know what my process...

BECKER
How long you'll last.

CREDICO
But I must say this: that uh it's a political thing. In my- My involvement in this, at this point, and my pushback is not legal, it's a political- see, you have to take a look at this, as a political moment. To stand up against the aggression and everybody...I'm- You know- They're gonna make me the next Carter Page? You know what I mean? Who's going to say foolish things? So, I'm just going to just draw the line, and say stop with me, at this point, and whatever you got, I'm not- You know. I took the Fifth. On that- on those grounds. I mean, I could use the First, I could go in- I'm not going to do it behind closed doors.

KIRIAKOU
No.

CREDICO
I want a public hearing, [cross talk] they don't me to have a public hearing [KIRIAKOU: No no.] because I'm going to talk just like I'm talking right now. They don't want to hear that.

KIRIAKOU
No. That's the last thing they want to hear.

CREDICO
Right. They don't like to have...truth to power. They don't want it and- and in broadcast [sic].

KIRIAKOU
That's right.

CREDICO
And- Plus, neither does- uh, MSNBC and all the major news- mainstream media. They don't want it to get this kind of information our there, because it doesn't serve their interests.

BECKER
Alright, we're gonna leave it there. Randy Credico, is our-

CREDICO
[does maybe Reagan, sounds like a little kid imitating a wrestler] I paid for this microphone, Mr. Green. [does better Reagan] No, that was Reagan that said that. I paid for this microphone.

BECKER
I'm sorry, it's actually Richard Nixon. Thank you, President Nixon. Thank you for joining us.

CREDICO
[as Reagan] Thank you, guys.

BECKER
[sounds like he's ready to shoot himself] It's been a great pleasure.

CREDICO
[as Reagan] Hey.

BECKER
[I want to die now] It's a great honor.

CREDICO
[as Reagan] It's been a great thrill to be here today, and uh, well, uh, let's- Okay. Uh, it's over there. Where'd it go? Alright.

BECKER
And now we've been joined, of course, by the eloquent voice of...Ronald Reagan.

CREDICO
[as Reagan] Yes sir.

BECKER
Okay. You're listening to "Loud and Clear", we'll be right back after a short break.