[14:55] <Jiminiminy> what were you writing about anyways something crazy?
[14:58] <Red_lantern> free organ market system should be preferiable to the current system
[15:00] <@Chev> should be?
[15:00] <@Chev> or would be?
[15:01] <Jiminiminy> i dont know what a free organ market system is
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[15:03] <Red_lantern> would be
[15:03] <Red_lantern> the idea that one is able to freely sell their kidneys at market price
[15:03] <Jiminiminy> okay
[15:03] <Jiminiminy> makes sense
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[15:04] <@Chev> Have there been any economic analyses of this? Because I feel like, barring an end-of-life scenario, the potential costs for health care due to complications from having only one kidney would outweigh any profit gained from the sale
[15:05] <@Chev> especially considering the deflation of cost if sale were legalized and more common
[15:05] <Jiminiminy> not if your in canada!
[15:05] <Jiminiminy> :D
[15:05] <Red_lantern> in india where the last democratic country to have a open market said that regular kideny could sell at 30k
[15:05] <Othar> hmmmm
[15:06] <@Chev> And how is this regulated?
[15:06] <@Chev> is there any method of recourse for individuals who aren't properly paid?
[15:06] <Red_lantern> written contract, have to be 21+ have to prove its your kidney
[15:06] <@Chev> because that's a major problem with current markets - victims aren't paid what htey've been promised
[15:06] <Red_lantern> proof of health, blood testing
[15:07] <@Chev> I think a problem you're going to encounter
[15:07] <Red_lantern> I'm not sure which market you're referring too, no western nation has a open organ market
[15:07] <@Chev> illegal market
[15:07] <@Chev> Anyway
[15:07] <Ecksphyre> this reminds me of the sketch from monty python's meaning of life
[15:07] <Red_lantern> illegal markets are risky, legalizing it allows for judical enforcement of conrtracts
[15:08] <Red_lantern> not paying for said kidney means your get shaken down in court
[15:09] <Red_lantern> yeah I know that scketch, its funny but absolutely silly
[15:10] <@Chev> Most western societies are moving toward a policy of outlawing or severely inhibiting activities or products that have a significant, negative health impact, despite any monetary gain from their use or practice.
[15:10] <@Chev> So while your proposal may make economic sense
[15:10] <@Chev> I highly doubt it would ever be implemented
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[15:10] <@Chev> For reference to what I mean, see trans fats or the growing trend to taxing tobacco products into oblivion
[15:11] <Othar> :>
[15:13] <Ecksphyre> all monty python sketches are funny but absolutely silly
[15:13] <Ecksphyre> my favourite from the meaning of life is THE MIDDLE OF THE FILM
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[15:14] <Red_lantern> the point of the system is not to raise profit persay, profit works as a incentive  in order to alieveate a organ shortage problem
[15:14] <@Chev> But profit is the only way to make the system work
[15:15] <@Chev> You're not going to solve the system by relying on altruism
[15:15] <Red_lantern> yeah, that's why I said profit was a incentive, and our current system is only based on altruism
[15:16] <Red_lantern> if the question is "how do we solve the organ shortage problem" then the answer must mainly reflect that question
[15:16] <Red_lantern> my answer, while not the only one, uses market forces to deal with the delemmia, while there is profit yes, its not the focus
[15:17] <@Chev> My problem with it is
[15:17] <Askal> wow the comany that made my 1950s doorbell is still in business
[15:17] <Ecksphyre> fishy fishy fishy fish
[15:17] <@Chev> You're going to have people who are only focused on the profit, who only participate in the system for money
[15:17] <Othar> woah
[15:18] <@Chev> And I'm not comfortable, and I don't think many people would be comfortable, with inviting those kind of players into such a delicate issue
[15:18] <Ecksphyre> oh where could that fish have gone
[15:19] <Red_lantern> when you say
[15:19] <Othar> guys there is something horribly HORRIBLY wrong with me
[15:19] <Othar> I'm
[15:19] <Othar> rereading harry potter
[15:19] <Jiminiminy> :I
[15:19] <Red_lantern> ""those players", who exactly do you mean
[15:19] <Ecksphyre> youre a wizard harry
[15:20] <Othar> somebody set me on fire.
[15:20] <Askal> das ok
[15:20] <Red_lantern> because seeking profit, in of itself should not be seen as a vice
[15:20] <@Chev> I'm imagining predatory organ seekers, people who build businesses on arranging for bad deals for organs
[15:21] <@Chev> Red: This is the fundamental point of disagreement between us
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[15:21] <Ecksphyre> children should always accept giant men bursting through their doors saying that they'll take them to a world of magic
[15:21] <@Chev> Because when the subject is human tissue, or human organs, such as this
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[15:22] <@Chev> I do think that seeking profit to the exclusion of other principles
[15:22] <@Chev> WOULD be a vice
[15:22] <@Chev> and would be an undesirable trait in the market
[15:22] <@Chev> It's a value judgement
[15:22] <@Chev> not a rational judgement
[15:22] <@Chev> But this is the problem with this issue: when it comes to a sensitive issue like this
[15:22] <@Chev> you'll never be able to separate value judgements from logical arguments
[15:23] <@Chev> (and, personally, I don't think you should even try)
[15:23] <@Chev> Basically
[15:24] <@Chev> I know enough about myself to say that I'm not okay with this
[15:24] <@Chev> But I can't put it into a rational argument and spell out my premises
[15:24] <@Chev> I can see the logic of what you're saying
[15:24] <@Chev> But I'm still not comfortable with it
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[15:25] <Jiminiminy> its something that comes down to individual core values
[15:25] <Jiminiminy> people are not going to agree
[15:25] <Jiminiminy> and people aren't really going to change their minds
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[15:26] <Jiminiminy> I would believe that if such a thing would be implimented it would have to be under government control
[15:26] <Jiminiminy> because ethically, individuals shouldnt be in charge of something like that
[15:28] <Red_lantern> a open organ market is not just a rational choice in resolving the organ shortage, its also a value judgment on its own
[15:28] <Jiminiminy> i think that
[15:28] <Jiminiminy> if people should be able to
[15:28] <Jiminiminy> it should not be an industry
[15:28] <@Chev> ^
[15:28] <Jiminiminy> the sale of organs should be to meet needs not exceed them
[15:28] <@Chev> I disagree that the open market is a value choice of its own
[15:28] <Jiminiminy> because the public export of human organs is not something that should be reasonable
[15:29] <@Chev> The real value judgement here is whether you believe organs should EVER be saleable
[15:29] <@Chev> Whether hte market is open is a separate question
[15:29] <Red_lantern> its stems from a classical liberal thought that humans can act as rational actors, in this case being able to decide if selling a kidney is a good idea or not
[15:29] <Jiminiminy> i think one could sell ones own organ
[15:29] <Jiminiminy> but buying and selling them as a means of making money would not be okay
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[15:30] <@Chev> My objection to this is not primarily to the idea that people should be able to sell their organs, but instead a strong disbelief that an open market for organs would ever be beneficial to the public, as compared to a closely controlled, tightly regulated exchange
[15:31] <@Chev> Ultimately, I'm a pessimist
[15:31] <@Chev> People would fuck it up
[15:31] <Derp> I just got my fetishware in the mail
[15:31] <Derp> should I put it on
[15:31] <@Chev> And I'm not willing to risk it
[15:31] <@Chev> Yes Derp
[15:31] <@Chev> put it on
[15:31] <Jiminiminy> sure why not
[15:31] <@Sock> the problem with letting the governments handle it isn't a perfect idea either. ours might be trustworthy enough, but i wouldn't doubt that some of them would start selling prisoners' organs without consent and such.
[15:31] <MikeMcC> Fetishware?
[15:31] <Derp> My zentai suit for my snowman cosplay
[15:31] <@Chev> Yeah there would definitely be problems
[15:31] <Red_lantern> I don't understand what you mean by "tight regulated exchange"
[15:31] <@Chev> I'm picturing
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[15:31] <Jiminiminy> well id be under the impression that a government implimenting this properly would be one stable enough where that wouldnt really be a risk
[15:31] <@Chev> The government keeping track of organs
[15:32] <@Chev> And what you pay is the cost of the operations plus maybe osme for future medical care
[15:32] <@Chev> And that's it
[15:32] <Jiminiminy> i guess it makes sense to me because health-care is already government anyways
[15:32] <@Chev> And the government makes sure that's all that changes hands
[15:32] <Jiminiminy> so i dont see it being that difficult to impliment
[15:32] <@Chev> Oh man jim
[15:32] <Jiminiminy> and also more economically viable
[15:32] <@Chev> You have no idea the siezures people are going through down here
[15:32] <Jiminiminy> yeah i dont
[15:33] <Jiminiminy> really get why
[15:33] <Jiminiminy> its a good thing
[15:33] <@Sock> yeah uh
[15:33] <Jiminiminy> why are people freaking out
[15:33] <@Sock> wait is this still about socialized healthcare
[15:33] <@Sock> are they STILL whining about that
[15:33] <Jiminiminy> probably
[15:33] <@Chev> What do you mean still
[15:33] <@Chev> They never stopped
[15:33] <Jiminiminy> no one will ever stop whining about it
[15:34] <@Sock> god that's so fucking stupid
[15:34] <@Sock> like really
[15:34] <@Sock> most of europe and canada are getting on fine with it
[15:34] <Jiminiminy> better, even
[15:34] <@Chev> Most of the entire world
[15:34] <@Chev> pretty much every developed country BUT us
[15:34] <Jiminiminy> lower cost and better quality
[15:34] <Red_lantern> but in your system, where do we get a increased supply of organs?
[15:35] <@Chev> From it being legal to sell your organs
[15:35] <Jiminiminy> i guess its like the metric system and trade with cuba
[15:35] <Jiminiminy> its been too long to NOT keep doing it
[15:35] <Ecksphyre> mhm
[15:35] <@Chev> This is the part where my own value judgements come in: I'm just not comfortable with organ selling for profit.
[15:35] <@Sock> honestly in a perfect world organ donation would be the norm and people would sign if they had religious reasons to not want to donate after death
[15:35] <@Chev> ^
[15:35] <@Sock> you don't need them anymore when you're dead
[15:35] <@Chev> Hell
[15:35] <@Chev> You want to fix the system?
[15:35] <@Chev> You don't need an organ market
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[15:35] <@Chev> Change the laws so it's opt-out
[15:35] <@Chev> instead of opt-in
[15:35] <@Chev> BAM
[15:36] <@Chev> organ shortage fixed overnight
[15:36] <Jiminiminy> organs everywhere
[15:36] <@Chev> Literally
[15:36] <Jiminiminy> too many organs
[15:36] <@Chev> There have been studies comparing the organ availability and survivalship of people needing organs
[15:36] <@Chev> between countries that are opt-out and opt-in
[15:36] <@Chev> opt-out countries are WAY WAY WAY higher
[15:37] <@Chev> You odn't need a market
[15:37] <@Chev> You just need better policy
[15:37] <Red_lantern> you would have to convince the public to allow it though, and in the face of conservativism it would be agression from the government
[15:37] <@Chev> But
[15:37] <@Chev> THat's the same argument against your market
[15:37] <Jiminiminy> america just needs a good dictator for a few years
[15:37] <Jiminiminy> show everyone how stupid they've been in their opposition
[15:37] <@Sock> people would probably flip their shit over it though, like they do with everything else, because they don't actually understand but want to feel indignant about something
[15:38] <Jiminiminy> but just going 'FUCK ALL YALL' and implimenting good things
[15:38] <Red_lantern> ha ha oh wow
[15:38] <@Sock> jim for american dictator 2010
[15:38] <@Sock> er
[15:38] <@Sock> 2012
[15:38] <@Chev> foreign-born
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[15:38] <Red_lantern> there is no way a benevolent dictator could solve public problems
[15:39] <@Chev> can't happen
[15:39] <Jiminiminy> well
[15:39] <Jiminiminy> its a dictatorship
15[15:39] <Pudd> man we still have a month
[15:39] <Jiminiminy> ill just take control
15[15:39] <Pudd> we can still make Jim dictator
[15:39] <Spleen> jim i will red dawn the shit our of your regime
[15:39] <@Chev> What you need to do is blackmail a majority of Congress
[15:39] <Spleen> Maple Dawn
[15:39] <Spleen> WOOOLLLVERINNEES
[15:39] <Jiminiminy> Maple Winter
[15:39] <Jiminiminy> there is no dawn...in CANADA
[15:39] <@Sock> can't solve public problems because the public is the problem
[15:40] <@Chev> zombie vampire grizzlies
[15:40] <Jiminiminy> p. much
[15:40] <@Sock> buncha whiners who don't know nothing
[15:40] <Othar> :o
[15:40] <Spleen> the solution is to get money and never deal w/them
[15:40] <Spleen> big money
[15:41] <Red_lantern> here, politcal question, how do perpose a opt-out system without the right wing screaming "GUBBERNMNIT WANT YOUR ORGANS FEMA DEATHCAMPS IN FULL PRODUCTION"
[15:41] <@Sock> you can't
[15:41] <@Sock> in america
[15:41] <@Sock> i think canada could probably do it
[15:41] <Spleen> kickbacks to the business so the right has no motivation to encourage the grass roots opposition
[15:42] <Spleen> alienates the vocal minority who would complain anyway
[15:42] <Red_lantern> other question, what political lens would arguing for a "opt-out" system work under
[15:42] <Jiminiminy> i think if that happened here it'd be more of a 'oh okay'
[15:43] <Jiminiminy> well anyone could make it work really
[15:43] <Jiminiminy> just like anyone could oppose it
[15:43] <@Chev> Red, how do you propose a market system without Democrats screaming about big industry wanting to steal your organs with shady one-sided, predatory contracts?
[15:43] <@Chev> What I'm saying it
[15:43] <@Chev> *is
[15:43] <@Chev> making these kinds of political arguments is a sidetrack
[15:43] <@Sock> do they have those "sign your donor cards" commercials running over there jim?
[15:43] <@Chev> a culdesac
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[15:43] <misto> hi
[15:43] <@Sock> i'm not sure if it's a federal push or if it's just manitoba
[15:44] <MikeMcC> Update
[15:44] <misto> oh derp
[15:44] <misto> r u there
[15:44] <Jiminiminy> i think they did but i dont watch too much tv
[15:44] <misto> sign your donor cards
[15:44] <misto> my tv broke a while back
[15:44] <misto> and i have had no replacement
[15:45] <misto> im so cool