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May 23rd, 2018
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  1. Ziz - 昨日 午後10時16分
  2. Hello Hive, I heard you're saying I'm evil, which is making my life slightly more difficult and is worrying. And it sucks, because I'm not evil. Is this your impression just from reading Sinceriously?
  3. 宮崎シラ子団長 - 昨日 午後10時24分
  4. Uhhhh....
  5. Ziz - 昨日 午後10時24分
  6. Is this incorrect?
  7. 宮崎シラ子団長 - 昨日 午後10時26分
  8. Your writing does give the impression of being written by a dark lord in a tower to corrupt young heroes.
  9. Ziz - 昨日 午後10時26分
  10. It's a reflection of how morality feels to me.
  11. We live in an authoritarian regime. Things will feel backwards.
  12. Basically, I believe that the transition Christian -> atheist is about 1/5 of the journey. Atheists are not actually more evil than Christians, but that is what it feels like.
  13. Or more dark.
  14. 宮崎シラ子団長 - 昨日 午後10時29分
  15. It's premised on a sort of hard utilitarianism that I find distinctly distasteful and likely to lead to bad outcomes.
  16. Ziz - 昨日 午後10時30分
  17. Hmm. My impression of all the people who called themselves consequentialists in the Bay and said they don't do those kinds of bad outcome things becasue TDT was that they must be lying. I wrote a post about that. But there is a lot of truth to that idea.
  18. Things are much more civilized than you might naively expect if you go on stereotypes of consequentialism near the center of all things and the way of making changes.
  19. Like, this seems to be a predictable culture difference Bay vs Seattle. I may write a post about this.
  20. Bay vs outside world.
  21. My extreme bluntness thing is me partly taking the idea that would-be-world-savers must be able to talk and be believed seriously. Others put more effort into presentation.
  22. 宮崎シラ子団長 - 昨日 午後10時35分
  23. I think it's like, there's a couple ways that someone could reach to successfully downloading the concepts from your blog:
  24. 1) "Admit that they were evil all along" and give up on EA causes or doing good because "Oh it was really just me trying to signal, now that I know that I can focus on what really matters, signalling!"
  25. 2) Having a scrupulosity breakdown around whether or not you're doing enough good or if you're a leech that is destroying the community (this is what I did)
  26. 3) Pick up that particular sword and become a terrifying inhuman monster that you can only hope remains mostly value aligned so you don't turn into Alison Airies.
  27. Ziz - 昨日 午後10時36分
  28. Googling for that name did not find an obvious intended result.
  29. 宮崎シラ子団長 - 昨日 午後10時36分
  30. she's second from the bottom on this meme
  31.  
  32. Ziz - 昨日 午後10時40分
  33. FWIW, I do not think you are evil all along.
  34. If people really are motivated by things other than good to contribute to EA, I think it is better and just for them to stop. Otherwise the community epistemology is damaged by overton window-dragging towards things that are presentable, like AMF.
  35.  
  36. It is very hard, not a hobby, to make the world better. Look at the present AI arms race. If you try, you are playing with fire. Like, I think if you engage with this horribly dangerous problem of trying to fix the world, you have a responsibility to put making sure you are actually not making things worse over feelings.
  37. If my models are correct, good people may fail to save the world because they are bound to a social contract to recognize neutral people as good, which means they can't believe good exists, which means they can't trust each other, which means they can't cooperate.
  38. 宮崎シラ子団長 - 昨日 午後10時44分
  39. I think that basically amounts to telling people they're not good enough to save the world and aren't welcome and their attempts to help aren't appreciated, which isn't helpful I don't think.
  40. Ziz - 昨日 午後10時44分
  41. Are Deepmind's attempts to help appreciated?
  42. 宮崎シラ子団長 - 昨日 午後10時46分
  43. I'm not sure if they're actually trying to help, I usually consider corporations to just be trying to make money and survive aside from a few edge cases like SpaceX and Discord that are specifically propped up by VC to function in a certain way. But I wouldn't really consider them to be trying to help.
  44. Ziz - 昨日 午後10時47分
  45. What do you mean "actually trying"? It says right on their webpage in big letters, "Solve intelligence. Use it to make the world a better place".
  46. 宮崎シラ子団長 - 昨日 午後10時48分
  47. that's just marketing.
  48. Ziz - 昨日 午後10時48分
  49. Mostly everyone in Deepmind believes it though.
  50. Aren't their efforts appreciated?
  51. 宮崎シラ子団長 - 昨日 午後11時1分
  52. I dunno, like, I don't do programming or computers, I have no idea if they're being helpful or not. That dogscape acid imagery is pretty memey. I appreciate that? You're asking me to make a value judgement on this huge vague ill defined object labeled "save the world" that if you actually examine it contains so many pieces that talking about it in terms of phrases like that end up being basically meaningless. What are you actually doing? what difference do you actually want to make? What does save the world mean? Is it save it from AI specifically? What about other X-risks? Or what about death, or global poverty, or wild animal suffering, or on and on and on.
  53.  
  54. I appreciate that they exist in this world, and that they're trying to make it better with whatever small bit of strength they have. The night is very long and dark and cold, so I'll take what I can get. I don't know what the outcome that will be produced is, all I can do is try my best to make things better, and encourage everyone else to also try their best, and hope that on net my impact is marginally better than it would be if I killed myself to reduce carbon load. So if they really that they're improving the world, than I appreciate them. There aren't enough people who actually care, in my opinion, the last thing I want to do is tell people they should stop trying to help. If there's a specific thing that's actually counterproductive you can say "That's poor praxis, that's counterproductive, that's undermining your stated goals." but you shouldn't just tell people to stop helping and try to cast them out.
  55. Ziz - 昨日 午後11時10分
  56. If you are on a nuclear submarine, and the reactor is about to melt, "wanting to help" is not sufficient to say you should be in the reactor room doing things.
  57.  
  58. What is true regarding people's motivations is a crucial piece of causal machinery that determines whether the reactor melts. Do not cook cookies on that and do not try to convince people that anyone whose work would interrupt your cookie-baking is evil.
  59.  
  60. Here there may be people whose sanity is dependent on cookies. But the lies that must be told to accomodate that are wrong and will destroy more people. And if you are not willing to accept one of the answers to whether cookie-baking is positive, and you say your opinion anyway, it's lying seeking a loophole in the deontology you claim makes you better than me by lying to yourself as well. Which, if you looked at this with an unconstrained perspective, you'd see is not an improvement as far as making things better.
  61. 宮崎シラ子団長 - 昨日 午後11時13分
  62. ....
  63. this is either a really weird metaphor
  64. or the bay area computing scene resembles The Hunt For Red October.
  65. Ziz - 昨日 午後11時14分
  66. What you are doing is unjust. Is wrong. By deontology. By consequentialism. Stop.
  67. 宮崎シラ子団長 - 昨日 午後11時18分
  68. I mean like...what...is this supposed to convince people working on Deepmind that they're actually evil and are dooming the planet by trying to bake cookies in the reactor room? And then what? Like...this is not my X-risk, I do other EA things, I am not convinced that AI is this immiment horrifying monster, so I'm happy to just stay mostly out of it. But when I see my friends passing around your blog as life advice for how to be better low level effective altruists, it makes me very nervous. Everyone is not in the reactor room. I don't want to be. Telling people they need to be or they're not really good people is kind of really shitty. That's the problem I have with your blog.
  69. Ziz - 昨日 午後11時20分
  70. Still weighing what I say by how it makes people around you feel, and politically opposing it and discouraging it, without attempting to engage with whether it is true, or what the tradeoff is between your surroundings and the reactor room. So decides Hive.
  71. 宮崎シラ子団長 - 昨日 午後11時22分
  72. There's plenty of it that is true, but that really just makes it all the more dangerous. It's an infohazard.
  73. Ziz - 昨日 午後11時23分
  74. So you campaign for falsehood to protect your people. I campaign for truth to protect all people. And you call me the bad utilitarian?
  75. The one violating deontology?
  76. 宮崎シラ子団長 - 昨日 午後11時24分
  77. I never said you were a bad utilitarian.
  78. Ziz - 昨日 午後11時24分
  79. "It's premised on a sort of hard utilitarianism that I find distinctly distasteful and likely to lead to bad outcomes."
  80. 宮崎シラ子団長 - 昨日 午後11時25分
  81. Yeah but that's "A good utilitarian"
  82. Ziz - 昨日 午後11時25分
  83. You are the one breaking deontology here. And it is not even to serve the greatest good.
  84. 宮崎シラ子団長 - 昨日 午後11時26分
  85. utilitarianism is not great for humans, you have to be be kinda inhuman to be willing to pull the lever.
  86. Ziz - 昨日 午後11時27分
  87. You are pulling the lever so it hits the 5 because the 1 is you.
  88. 宮崎シラ子団長 - 昨日 午後11時27分
  89. Now you're just being rude.
  90. Ziz - 昨日 午後11時28分
  91. You are campaiging for falsehood. That breaks deontology. Your justification is protecting people like yourself, and you have chosen to ignore the larger cost.
  92. 宮崎シラ子団長 - 昨日 午後11時29分
  93. What am I campaigning for?
  94. Ziz - 昨日 午後11時29分
  95. The status quo on beliefs about morality, which you have slipped you know is false.
  96. And you call the truth an infohazard because it moves the trolly towards the one from the five.
  97. 宮崎シラ子団長 - 昨日 午後11時33分
  98. I mean...
  99. 1) If you think this is supposed to convince me that you are not evil, telling me that my failure to kill myself makes me evil is not a great way to do it.
  100. 2) You really picked the wrong person to try to make an argument about how false things are bad to
  101.  
  102. Ziz - 昨日 午後11時34分
  103. I never said that you were evil for not killing yourself. You are allowed to just stop campaigning for falsehood and stay alive.
  104. I was too charitable really. This is throwing the lever from a track with 0 to a track with 5, and then hopping on the track with 0 because there are good times there.
  105. 宮崎シラ子団長 - 昨日 午後11時35分
  106. You have this object here
  107. that you have labelled "campaigning for falsehood" what is it you think I'm doing? I'm endorsing untrue things? What untrue things? You know nothing of me or my beliefs.
  108. And it's 11:30 pm and I don't really want to argue with you about them.
  109. The problem isn't the true things you say
  110. Ziz - 昨日 午後11時37分
  111. You are maligning me for speaking otherwise than falsehood. Political actions taken against a proposition.
  112. 宮崎シラ子団長 - 昨日 午後11時37分
  113. it's all the extra bits of information attached to the true things that make emotionally destructive value judgements.
  114. It's not the facts, you could say the facts in a way that didn't cause problems, but the way you present them is not that way.
  115. Ziz - 昨日 午後11時40分
  116. I hope you don't sit there on the tracks and kill yourself to make a point.
  117. You seem to want me to doublespeak, saying effectively the truth but I should not act on it.
  118. The things you are calling "fact-free value judgements" I am speaking too, are actually beliefs. Because people act on them like beliefs. I will not mix the truth with lies so that it can be half-known. That makes it harder to fix the reactor.
  119. 宮崎シラ子団長 - 昨日 午後11時41分
  120. I'm going to tell you the same thing I told another person who has a similar personality.
  121. You could describe yourself as something of truth golem, ne?
  122. Ziz - 昨日 午後11時42分
  123. A golem? No.
  124. I use TDT and truth because of consequentialists don't, we are fucked.
  125. I don't throw responsibility for my actions at the hands of an invisible truth god.
  126. 宮崎シラ子団長 - 昨日 午後11時43分
  127. Well yeah of course not
  128. I'm making a crude metaphor.
  129. Ziz - 昨日 午後11時44分
  130. I've met someone who does. Zack Davis.
  131. Ironically, his shit is not true.
  132. 宮崎シラ子団長 - 昨日 午後11時45分
  133. I do not care in the slightest about truth other than as an instrumentally useful tool in pursuit of my actual terminal value which is Goodness.
  134. I...strongly react with people. Like...metaphorical chemical reaction
  135. Ziz - 昨日 午後11時48分
  136. If your actual terminal value is goodness, why are you protecting people like yourself outside the reactor room by lying without bothering to consider the consequences in the reactor room?(編集済)
  137. 宮崎シラ子団長 - 昨日 午後11時48分
  138. The reactor room should be operating on different rules anyway.
  139. Why are you trying to communicate with a nuclear submarine by blogpost?
  140. Ziz - 昨日 午後11時49分
  141. It's a crazy world.
  142. Don't pull respectacbility shit on me.
  143. 宮崎シラ子団長 - 昨日 午後11時50分
  144. Because if what you wrote is meant to be an Eldritch Tome Of Nuclear Reactor Repair, it probably shouldn't be on a public website labelled as self help, because it ends up being an unlabeled infohazard that induces severe scrupulosity in anyone EA inclined, and then it gets passed around the EA community.
  145. Ziz - 昨日 午後11時50分
  146. It's not like there's a wall between you and stuff that affects the reactor.
  147. You are maligning me to people who might matter.
  148. 宮崎シラ子団長 - 昨日 午後11時51分
  149. I don't even necessarily think the narrative you spin is all that more true that what some of the other people say. Lots of people say lots of things on blog posts.
  150. Ziz - 昨日 午後11時53分
  151. "I don't even necessarily think"
  152. This is the kind of statement people make when they are arguing that they are allowed to believe otherwise. But if you are trying to see if you are allowed to believe otherwise, you made your choice long ago.
  153. 宮崎シラ子団長 - 昨日 午後11時57分
  154. It's a particular framework, and like all good frameworks, it's totally fake. I must get to sleep though. I apologize if I have maligned you. I don't think you're actually a bad person, but I do think that the blog you wrote is something that would do a lot of people more harm than good to read, and that's independent of the truth-ness of any of the content.
  155. Ziz - 昨日 午後11時57分
  156. The truth-ness affects things. It is not independent.
  157. 宮崎シラ子団長 - 昨日 午後11時59分
  158. This basically boils down to a values conflict. We live in very different worlds. I don't think I can have this conversation with you, not in private, and definitely not in the middle of the night.
  159. I'm going to bed
  160. おやすみなさい
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