projectrevotpp
6:42 PM

twitchplayspokemon
6:41 PM
leaders and followers are celebrating it
6:41
if you cater to them the stream will die eventually because no one new will join

streamer on turbo
twitchplayspokemon
6:43 PM
I'm happy to discuss turbo
projectrevotpp
6:43 PM
@channel (edited)
6:43
please let streamer know why you like/dislike turbo. Whats the problem with it?
pokemongod777
6:44 PM
Turbo is kinda weird, it works in some mid-range view levels, but when there are a really low amount of inputs, it causes massive overshoots in our target, and when there's a lot of inputs, it's pretty much worthless anyway
faithfulforce
6:44 PM
Too bad my laptop failed yesterday, typing up long paragraphs might take awhile. I'll try install slack on a backup computer
pokemongod777
6:45 PM
I like the idea of Turbo Anarchy, but sometimes it's just "urgh"
faithfulforce
6:46 PM
To clarify, what are "leaders and followers" celebrating in the above snippet? (edited)
aaaaaa123456789
6:46 PM
it's a nice improvement from when the input queue would just stall, but it doesn't come without downsides
twitchplayspokemon
6:46 PM
people with enough social capital to decide by consensus what action to take
6:47
they like being able to make specific inputs
faithfulforce
6:48 PM
It seems like the snippet lacks some context.  Are you saying that leaders prefer normal anarchy because they have greater influence there?
twitchplayspokemon
6:48 PM
yes
projectrevotpp
6:49 PM
https://www.reddit.com/r/twitchplayspokemon/comments/6d3ae8/what_do_you_want_to_see_out_of_tpp_what_makes_you/
reddit
What do you want to see out of TPP? What makes you keep coming back? What do you think would help with new viewers? • r/twitchplayspokemon
^ see title I'm looking for genuine opinions about what we can do to improve stable viewership. **Known Suggestions:** * We know about the alt...
6:49
I am looking at all 100+ comments of this
m4_used_rollout
6:51 PM
Benefits of turbo: it keeps inputs from drying. It makes the stream a bit more interesting to watchDrawbacks of turbo: you're constantly fighting with your own inputs, people feel like their inputs don't matter, simple things like walking out a door can take 10 minutes, everything precise (especially menu use) now requires Democracy, newbies don't understand the system, probably 75% of the community hates it
6:52
Source: I input and I'm in chat a lot during runs
aaaaaa123456789
6:52 PM
what if we made it opt-out-able?
6:52
like, b+once only inputs B once
m4_used_rollout
6:52 PM
Then everyone would opt out
aaaaaa123456789
6:52 PM
not if you have to do it for every input
egobuff
6:53 PM
moving around could still use turbo easily
aaaaaa123456789
6:53 PM
by adding a cost (in the form of extra typing) to it, you immediately discourage it
m4_used_rollout
6:53 PM
Ctrl-v
faithfulforce
6:53 PM
Giving people control over using turbo or not is an interesting idea
m4_used_rollout
6:54 PM
That's what we used Select for
faithfulforce
6:54 PM
Select doesn't do it as good as a manual method would
egobuff
6:54 PM
using once makes precision inputting easier but also lets trolls use turbo to troll us :ninjatroll:
projectrevotpp
6:54 PM
im not saying to get rid of turbo: im only saying to reserve it for anniversary runs to increase volume input
faithfulforce
6:55 PM
Oh revo, have you joined the "nerf / reduce / get rid of turbo" side?
projectrevotpp
6:55 PM
i only want to make TPP sustainable
m4_used_rollout
6:55 PM
There was a time in Chatty Yellow where a single person on B+up kept us from using Surf indefinitely
projectrevotpp
6:55 PM
even if its a better system, if the stream demands its removal or risk TPP's expiration
6:55
then so be it.
faithfulforce
6:56 PM
Once i get slack installed on a back up computer i will type up all sortd of arguments
aaaaaa123456789
6:56 PM
you don't need to install it
projectrevotpp
6:56 PM
web chat
aaaaaa123456789
6:56 PM
the browser version works
6:56
I've always used it; I never installed anything
m4_used_rollout
6:57 PM
We need to make Turbo better. Most of the people who input with it agree it sucks. Newbies don't understand it and once it's explained to them half of them say it sucks (edited)
faithfulforce
6:57 PM
My computer which was failing slowly for months finally gave up yesterday so now i will need to use some old laptop
projectrevotpp
6:57 PM
i wont say too much: but there is some discussion about an initiative to make TPP tolerable again: but we need to start with baby steps
6:57
such as addressing Turbo and overlay issues.
aaaaaa123456789
6:57 PM
by show of hands, it seems like nobody likes turbo in the way it exists now
faithfulforce
6:58 PM
Yeah we have held that opinion for awhile but didn't think we would be able to modify or get rid of it until today
twitchplayspokemon
6:58 PM
what about spectators who want to see more than one input per 10 seconds?
aaaaaa123456789
6:58 PM
as I said before, the input queue not stalling is a huge benefit
m4_used_rollout
6:58 PM
And we doubly shouldn't use it this run. We don't know how it works on a touchscreen game
aaaaaa123456789
6:58 PM
but if the drawbacks are worse than that...
aissurtievos
6:58 PM
are we also considering the opinions of the people who come back for runs
6:58
and arent here to give opinions
6:59
do we have history of their opinions of turbo?
m4_used_rollout
6:59 PM
Do you want to please the inputters who subscribe or the lurkers who don't?
projectrevotpp
6:59 PM
look at that astounding 114 viewer count
egobuff
6:59 PM
yes
twitchplayspokemon
6:59 PM
I want a stream that's appealing to someone watching for the first time
projectrevotpp
6:59 PM
remember when it used to be a stable 200?
legtendga
6:59 PM
yes
aissurtievos
6:59 PM
we need something new
legtendga
7:00 PM
Yes
m4_used_rollout
7:00 PM
Turbo is driving people to input less. It's driving me to input less.
twitchplayspokemon
7:00 PM
it's supposed to
7:00
to prevent burn out
legtendga
7:00 PM
Oh
twitchplayspokemon
7:00 PM
and to prevent only spammers showing up
aissurtievos
7:00 PM
ive always been a watcher, and i agree a bit, turbo does make viewing it more enjoyable
7:00
but it may decrease interaction a bit
legtendga
7:00 PM
It's increased burnout by my observation
twitchplayspokemon
7:01 PM
really? what about trolls not being able to counter inputs any more?
7:01
you say people are complaining about the current system, but they'll complain about the other system too
aissurtievos
7:01 PM
well it makes trolling easier as well as harder, since you dont have to spam inputs to troll
aaaaaa123456789
7:01 PM
people complain about everything; you have to analyze the complaints
m4_used_rollout
7:01 PM
If all you're doing is watching, I'm sure Turbo is fine. But even a lot of people who loved it during Chatty Yellow came to hate it in Blazed Glazed
aaaaaa123456789
7:01 PM
not just discard them in whole because they will always exist
m4_used_rollout
7:01 PM
And yes, turbo does make trolling easier
legtendga
7:01 PM
Yes
aissurtievos
7:01 PM
it makes it both easier and harder
twitchplayspokemon
7:01 PM
is it better to support an ancient clique or make the stream appealing to fresh eyes?
aaaaaa123456789
7:02 PM
the question is, does turbo do that? (edited)
projectrevotpp
7:02 PM
neither: its about which one will kill the stream faster
aaaaaa123456789
7:02 PM
in practice, not in theory (edited)
legtendga
7:02 PM
It's not appealing once you start inputting
projectrevotpp
7:02 PM
then dont do the one that does
m4_used_rollout
7:02 PM
Is it better to make it harder or easier for new people to participate?
aissurtievos
7:02 PM
easier
projectrevotpp
7:02 PM
who's discovering TPP? people randomly browsing twitch plays categories? odds are they are people that already know about TPP
7:02
we dont outreach, ever
twitchplayspokemon
7:02 PM
the new people who don't understand Twitch will eat repeated messages unless they add whitespace?
projectrevotpp
7:03 PM
so your only option is to either start doing so, or stop losing "gas"
m4_used_rollout
7:03 PM
Can't we turn off r9k mode?
aissurtievos
7:03 PM
is it on?
twitchplayspokemon
7:03 PM
it is off
legtendga
7:03 PM
Yeah
m4_used_rollout
7:03 PM
So the 30 seconds thing is just global Twitch?
aaaaaa123456789
7:03 PM
if r9k was on, the stream wouldn't have made it to one hour
7:03
yes
m4_used_rollout
7:04 PM
Ugh
aissurtievos
7:04 PM
@m4_used_rollout yes
twitchplayspokemon
7:04 PM
r9k was on a long time ago, back when moderation was more difficult
7:04
due to volume
aaaaaa123456789
7:04 PM
new people can still input every 30 seconds even if they don't understand that issue
7:04
and they can always ask
m4_used_rollout
7:05 PM
This is a hard conversation to have on a phone
egobuff
7:05 PM
or maybe they see people change between a and A and try that instead
projectrevotpp
7:05 PM
also re: turbo preventing burn out
twitchplayspokemon
7:05 PM
I think something needs to be done, but undoing things already done expecting it to have a positive result seems wrong to me
projectrevotpp
7:05 PM
if turbo makes someone leave, permanently
faithfulforce
7:05 PM
Yeah thats why i am not typing right now m4
projectrevotpp
7:05 PM
that even worse
m4_used_rollout
7:05 PM
Look, we do need a solution to inputs occasionally dying, but turbo isn't it
twitchplayspokemon
7:05 PM
what about the viewership decline prior to turbo?
7:06
you can't blame that on turbo
projectrevotpp
7:06 PM
it was not this fast
7:06
turbo you could say turbo'd the decline
m4_used_rollout
7:06 PM
Blazed Glazed was our lowest viewed run yet
aaaaaa123456789
7:06 PM
it's simple
projectrevotpp
7:06 PM
and we have statistics to back that one up
aaaaaa123456789
7:06 PM
if you announce no turbo and get more viewers
7:06
you know that turbo was properly reversed
aissurtievos
7:07 PM
tbf if the removal of a feature is a viewer increase there is an issue :confused:
projectrevotpp
7:07 PM
i would advise not having turbo for this run: see how the viewer count reacts
egobuff
7:07 PM
it sounds like you think turbo is some magical answer that fixes all problem at the cost of minor inconvenience
m4_used_rollout
7:07 PM
We're too close to the run to fix turbo. Let's take it out and say well turn it back on if inputs die
aissurtievos
7:07 PM
i dont think removing it will increase the count, it may make the users more happy, but not increase the count
leonys
7:08 PM
and to be fair, hacks usually will get less viewership than official game (edited)
legtendga
7:08 PM
We will absolutely have people return that left, it's just a question of how many
aissurtievos
7:08 PM
we need more new stuff
7:08
gimmicks
7:08
like chatty yellow
legtendga
7:08 PM
Yeah, I mean, that was a Kanto run and people loved it
aissurtievos
7:09 PM
that was the most fun ive had in a while and even a bit of news outlets covered it
projectrevotpp
7:09 PM
please believe us when we say that :lock:tppdevs is discussing "solutions" to PBR being stale
7:09
but that is not what this is about
7:09
its about Turbo
m4_used_rollout
7:09 PM
Turbo'a minor inconvenience sometimes turns into "Hahaaa I took the one Down in a sea of Ups and repeated it 6 times in a row!"
aaaaaa123456789
7:09 PM
why are you discussing them in a locked channel with 4 people?
7:09
wouldn't you want more inputs?
7:09
and I don't just mean a one-way forum thread like the reddit thing
m4_used_rollout
7:09 PM
Turbo means that even if the inputters make no mistakes, they still lose
projectrevotpp
7:10 PM
okay, allow me to suggest a hypothetical without giving the specifics that were said
egobuff
7:10 PM
expecting perfect inputs in tpp :lul:
projectrevotpp
7:10 PM
what if we switched to a per-day schedule mode where every day of the week was a certain kind of gamemode? For example, lets pretend Sunday was Stadium 2
m4_used_rollout
7:10 PM
You can say that that's how it should be, but that's not fun to play
twitchplayspokemon
7:10 PM
turbo makes it easier to counter a troll's input, as there's no advantage to spamming an input more than turbo will benefit from
aaaaaa123456789
7:10 PM
@projectrevotpp then don't make it a week long
7:10
make it 6 or 8 days
7:11
so it shifts across the week and people can enjoy all the modes
legtendga
7:11 PM
Turbo does it for them
projectrevotpp
7:11 PM
only if they actually input so there are inputs to counter
aaaaaa123456789
7:11 PM
because it's a known fact that people are often busy the same days of the week every single week
twitchplayspokemon
7:11 PM
two people willing to input once every 5 seconds can beat a troll willing to input once every second
projectrevotpp
7:11 PM
if turbo discourages input, no amount of protections will justify it
7:11
thats the point
m4_used_rollout
7:11 PM
Yeah like how GenWunner all by himself was able to wall us for hours. So much for Turbo helping us counter him. It doesn't work.
projectrevotpp
7:11 PM
yeah, that was awful
twitchplayspokemon
7:12 PM
with low inputs anarchy isn't?
7:12
up
7:12
down
7:12
up
7:12
down
7:12
at least with turbo spam is nerfed
m4_used_rollout
7:12 PM
Or amplified
projectrevotpp
7:12 PM
no it isnt, because turbo literally spams your input
aaaaaa123456789
7:12 PM
nerfing spam ≠ nerfing trolls
7:12
spamming commands is ineffective
projectrevotpp
7:12 PM
trolls that depend on just 1 input getting through, such as a ledge
7:12
turbo aint gonna do shit about that
aaaaaa123456789
7:12 PM
now trolling is less expensive
7:13
you can troll with one input every 15 seconds as opposed to with one input every second
7:13
yes, countering trolls is simpler
twitchplayspokemon
7:13 PM
turbo makes the less determined inputters able to counter the trolls more easily
aaaaaa123456789
7:13 PM
but it meets the fact that there are simply more trolls
7:13
because trolling now takes one input
twitchplayspokemon
7:14 PM
trolling always takes one input
7:14
how many inputs do you want for progress to happen?
aaaaaa123456789
7:14 PM
and thus, trolls have one plus (it's just a lot easier) when counter-trolls are as they were (it's easier to counter trolls, but there are more trolls, so the cumulative effort is the same)
projectrevotpp
7:14 PM
so does normal inputting
7:16
regardless, i want RW2 to not have turbo this run so we can see the effects it has
7:17
1. we dont know what turbo does for touch screens
7:17
rather would not find out
7:17
2. statistics