Modernity, leftism, white factionalism, free speech (puma)

puma
CoMBo: gay
13:44 puma
didnt know 4chan vids had sound, i guess they are just muted on site?
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puma
https://reclaimthenet.org/gab-trends/ https://trends.gab.com/
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puma
drudge _alternative_
14:03 puma
https://old.reddit.com/r/FreeSpeech/comments/do9awo/best_and_worst_colleges_and_universities_for_free/
puma
why he hate working class ppl?
infspire
puma: How do you feel about Trump?
puma
infspire: he's ok
infspire
puma: What do you like most about him?
infspire
What do dislike most about him?
puma
that he doesnt want death to america, trying to stop illegals
puma
that he doesnt want to stop legal immigration
14:15 infspire
puma: Why is immigration death to America?
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puma
depends on the immigration, but mostly they lean WAY left, are less supportive of free speech, are a net loss tax-wise, and i belive demographics largely is desitny
puma
also "you are not a horse just because you are born in a stable"
infspire
What evidence do you have they lean "WAY left"?
puma
you dont know this??
infspire
I am ready to receive your evidence for your claim.
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puma
infspire: heres it the freee speech http://0x0.st/zYjy.jpg

infspire inspects
robotnik
let his ignorance hurt himself
puma
infspire: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/09/behind-trumps-victory-divisions-by-race-gender-education/ft_16-11-09_exitpolls_race_ethnicity/
puma
everyone on the right should be against immigrants from non-white countries
puma
or you will lose EVERYTHING FOREVER
puma
who has said that for years?
puma
ofc fear ans scare tactics has been around since forever ...
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infspire
puma: Looking at these results, one possibility that occurs to me is that white-Americans may have anti-American attitudes at higher levels than non-white-Americans.
infspire
Have you considered that?
puma
in what way?
infspire
puma: Are you familiar with Federalist 10 by James Madison?
puma
no
infspire
puma: Are you familiar with the Federalist Papers more broadly?
puma
no
infspire
They're essays written by Madison, Jay, and Hamilton on why the colonies should ratify the proposed Constitution.
infspire
In Federalist 10, which is one of the most important essays in American political history, Madison argues the *primary* threat against the proposed republic is factionalism.
infspire
Factionalism is one a person or group of people put their interests above the republic or whole.
infspire
In my opinion, this is *the* primary challenge in all of governance across human history.
infspire
That is, Madison is a genius.
infspire
He argues it's not possible to stop factionalism from existing, as it is animated by liberty itself.
infspire
And so we must allow factionalism, but too much factionalism destroys the republic, and so the republic must manage its levels.
infspire
What I am seeing in this data you're presenting is that white-Americans are one of the most ethnically-racially factional groups of people in the republic.
infspire
Federalist 10 isn't very long -- I strongly encourage you to read it.
infspire
The ideals of the American republic, puma, have never been about ethnical or racial homogeneity.
infspire
In fact, that would be anathema to the ideals of the republic.
infspire
There is no physical appearance identity to 'America', only an ideological one.
infspire
That religion and state should be separate, that free speech is noble and moral, that violence in response to speech is immoral, etc.
puma
infspire: so how are whites have anti-american attitudes, when the non-whites dont value free speech as much?
infspire
I take issue with these questions by the CATO institute.
infspire
But, I do take them under partial advisement.
infspire
One, the CATO institute is historically a Koch organization.
infspire
The Kochs are/were oil billionaires who have created a vast network of propaganda organizations to push their right-libertarian policies.
infspire
Now, free speech is a metonym for the free speech clause in the First Amendment, which concerns the relationship between the state and the speech of citizens.
infspire
The first question has literally nothing to do with that.
puma
we have the same results here in norway
puma
80% of muslims vote left
infspire
What you think is racist or not has literally nothing to do with the role of the state in regards to the citizen.
infspire
The fourth question is also meaningless.
infspire
In regards to "free speech".
infspire
The third question is insufficient without knowledge of whether or not those who think hate speech is violence would pass legislation to modify the historical concept of free speech.
infspire
The second question does indicate a misunderstanding of how rights work.
infspire
And I find that useful information.
infspire
Rights are not removed due to lack of respect.
puma
i doubt left wing findings too, its only human
infspire
puma: I was a right-libertarian in my youth.
infspire
The CATO institute was one of my primary sources of political analysis.
infspire
I don't doubt them because they're on the right.
infspire
I doubt them because they're part of the Koch network.
infspire
And the Koch network has a rich history of propganda.
infspire
The entire goal of the Koch network is to keep the Koch's billions by deregulating government so government doesn't regulate the oil industry.
infspire
That's it.
infspire
That is extraordinarily anti-democratic.
infspire
puma: I have a more fundamental challenge to your entire argument.
infspire
The reason immigrants are more to the left than the right in many countries is because the right is fundamentally not compatible with modernity.
puma
pls give me the summary, im off to bed
infspire
The entire modernity project is a leftist project.
infspire
All of the ideals of the West since the Peace of Westphalia in 1648 are 'leftist'.
infspire
This inexorable progress towards leftist ideals has been punctuated by right-wing resurgences that attempt to revert Western society to its monarchial roots.
infspire
The fundamental principles of the right are that 'my faction should be empowered, but not bound, and all rival factions shall be bound, but not empowered'.
infspire
The ideals of a free, open, pluralistic, merit-based, non-class, non-caste system is a leftist project.
puma
hehehehehe
infspire
puma: 'Whites' are not more terrible than other groups.
infspire
There are no human races.
infspire
Recall Madison's ideology -- factionalism is THE primary problem.
infspire
Why, then, is white culture the proximal primary problem in the West?
infspire
Because it is the dominant faction.
infspire
It has the most to gain by trying to hold onto its factional dominance and movement to equality.
infspire
If Muslims or blacks or Chinese or Russians were the dominant faction, they'd do the same things.
infspire
The goal of an American is to not empower factions, but to empower ideology.
infspire
The migration of non-whites into Europe and America will dilute white power, mitigating the effects of the dominant faction, and is thus good.
infspire
It is deeply American to desire immigration.
infspire
Of course, immigration also creates other costs, as humans take awhile to learn to get along with those who look, speak, and think differently than they do.
infspire
And so those costs have to be offset by the gains from reducing white factional power.
infspire
I think the status quo is that white supremacist attitudes are one of the primary problems in the republic, and so I don't worry about immigration at this time.
infspire
puma: If this analysis seems unusual to you, I'm largely using John Rawls' notion of the 'veil of ignorance' to construct society without knowing my identity or place in the society that I am constructing.
puma
it is a bit _unusual
puma
_
infspire
This is consistent with both Kant's deontology, as Rawls was a neo-Kantian, and Madison's deep narrative about human nature (equivalent in scope to Marx' conception about materialism 60 years later).
infspire
puma: Perhaps allow me to close with one artistic citation.
infspire
America isn't easy. America is advanced citizenship. You've gotta want it bad, cause it's gonna put up a fight. It's gonna say 'You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, and who's standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours.' You want to claim this land as the land of the free? Then the
infspire
symbol of your country cannot just be a flag. The symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest. Now show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms. Then you can stand up and sing about the land of the free.
infspire
America isn't easy, puma -- it's advanced citizenship.
abum
i feel inspired
infspire
And it's lot more nuanced that 'defend the white man's faction'.
abum scratches butt
puma
leftists really are full of themselves
infspire
Which is somewhat a strawman of your position, puma.
infspire
But also contains some important content.
infspire
puma: Do you have any substantive rebuttals?
puma
dont pretend you are talking to me, you opened up 100 cans of worms
puma
im too tired for this shit
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infspire
When you're more rested, I'd be interested in hearing any substantive rebuttals you may have.