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Eyio

bronies are bad at arguing

Eyio
Feb 28th, 2012
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  1. [8:29:17 PM] 8ird: i got linked to the mlp fim tvtropes page and i found out that there are characters that are a blatant caricature of native americans for some reason? theyre buffalo and they wear feathered headresses... because of course indigenous people are a different species right
  2.  
  3. good gravy
  4. [8:29:32 PM] Yukari: i thought the zebra episode already demonstrated that :U
  5. [8:29:36 PM] RB: ew
  6. [8:30:09 PM] Yukari: she was a fucking VOODOO WITCH ZEBRA OH NOES TEH EVIL?!?
  7. [8:30:18 PM] Yukari: except the whole aesop of the episode was that she WASNT a voodoo witch silly
  8. [8:30:56 PM] Yukari: except she still walked and talked like a bad "african" stereotype so no that doesnt really negate it!
  9. [8:31:30 PM] 8ird: http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/zecora_9590.jpg
  10. http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/chief_thunderhooves_by_NightmareMoonS_9661.png
  11. http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/LittleStrongheartCharacter_629.png
  12. [8:31:47 PM] 8ird: just
  13. [8:31:49 PM] 8ird: jesus dicks
  14. [8:32:02 PM] 8ird: this is getting to almost dominic deegan levels of wtf
  15. [8:32:23 PM] RB: my face hurts from how hard I'm side-eyeing that shit rn
  16. [8:32:43 PM] MaxieMarauder: Zebras are native to africa.
  17. [8:32:50 PM] MaxieMarauder: Buffalo are native to america.
  18. [8:32:51 PM] Yukari: also dont forget how the native americans and white colonizers can just settle their shit ~peacefully~
  19. [8:32:56 PM] MaxieMarauder: What’s the problem?
  20. [8:33:49 PM] Yukari: the problem is that there are really nasty ass social precedents dehumanizing people of color by making them out to be "different species"
  21. [8:34:01 PM] MaxieMarauder: You’re overthinking a cartoon.
  22. [8:34:06 PM] Yukari: "overthinking"
  23. [8:34:07 PM] Yukari: oic
  24. [8:34:35 PM] MaxieMarauder: They wanted to design horse-like characters in the style that usually only features horses.
  25. [8:34:40 PM] Yukari: then why not
  26. [8:34:43 PM] Yukari: just do horses
  27. [8:34:49 PM] MaxieMarauder: ...
  28. [8:34:51 PM] Yukari: why explicitly other non-white races by making them out to be other species
  29. [8:34:53 PM] RB: It's not like there's, y'know, horse species native to the American continent or anything :U
  30. [8:34:54 PM] MaxieMarauder: Because the whole fucking show is horses.
  31. [8:35:12 PM] MaxieMarauder: Dude, they’re as non-white as Twilight fucking Sparkle
  32. [8:35:16 PM] RB: Even if they died out and weren't reintroduced until colonialism
  33. [8:35:21 PM] MaxieMarauder: They have COLOURED FUR.
  34. [8:35:30 PM] MaxieMarauder: They are
  35. [8:35:30 PM] MaxieMarauder: A
  36. [8:35:31 PM] MaxieMarauder: N
  37. [8:35:32 PM] MaxieMarauder: I
  38. [8:35:32 PM] Yukari: yeah thats why theyre specifically marked with native american and african imagery
  39. [8:35:32 PM] MaxieMarauder: M
  40. [8:35:34 PM] MaxieMarauder: A
  41. [8:35:35 PM] MaxieMarauder: L
  42. [8:35:35 PM] MaxieMarauder: S
  43. [8:35:51 PM] MaxieMarauder: Because those animals are native to that culture.
  44. [8:36:22 PM] MaxieMarauder: You’re looking for a reason to be mad at a show you don’t like.
  45. [8:36:26 PM] MaxieMarauder: Just say you don’t like it.
  46. [8:36:28 PM] MaxieMarauder: It’s okay.
  47. [8:36:53 PM] Yukari: what if
  48. [8:36:55 PM] Mindfag: Zecora, at least, is hells of racist
  49. [8:36:58 PM] Mindfag: Though I like her
  50. [8:37:00 PM] Yukari: these are the reasons i dont like the cartoon
  51. [8:37:09 PM] MaxieMarauder: Then you’re overreacting.
  52. [8:37:23 PM] MaxieMarauder: Also I don’t see how Zecora is racist.
  53. [8:37:32 PM] MaxieMarauder: She initially came off that way.
  54. [8:37:35 PM] MaxieMarauder: But the moral of the story
  55. [8:37:41 PM] MaxieMarauder: Is that she’s the same as everyone else.
  56. [8:38:24 PM] MaxieMarauder: Also she speaks in rhymes which is the coolest thing don’t even be dissing Zecora
  57. [8:38:30 PM] Yukari: lol this is exactly the kind of shit that people are talking about when people talk about bronies and their entitlement issues
  58. [8:38:42 PM] cuttlefriend: http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m04xs6KEoV1qhizyvo1_500.png notzilon i love you and i love this baby
  59. [8:38:44 PM] Yukari: you refuse to acknowledge viewpoints that a thing may be problematic
  60. [8:38:47 PM] MaxieMarauder: I don’t see how what I said was entitled.
  61. [8:38:52 PM] Yukari: plug your ears and make the other guy out to be the oppressor
  62. [8:39:00 PM] Yukari: you are the worst kind of brony lmfao'
  63. [8:39:03 PM] MaxieMarauder: I’m not saying you’re oppressing anybody.
  64. [8:39:14 PM] MaxieMarauder: Or whatever.
  65. [8:39:19 PM] MaxieMarauder: I’m not oppressing anybody
  66. [8:39:19 PM] Mindfag: Nah
  67. [8:39:23 PM] MaxieMarauder: I said it was OK for you to not like it.
  68. [8:39:28 PM] Yukari: youre implying that by pointing out problematic elements im shitting on your squee
  69. [8:39:34 PM] Mindfag: I think the worst kind of brony is the person that tells a transgirl that they're shit and will never be a "real girl"
  70. [8:39:35 PM] MaxieMarauder: Umm, what?
  71. [8:39:36 PM] MaxieMarauder: No I’m not.
  72. [8:39:39 PM] Yukari: and i said the reason i dont like it is because of problematic elements
  73. [8:39:42 PM] Mindfag: Not someone defending the show
  74. [8:40:14 PM] MaxieMarauder: Which are not problematic from my viewpoint, and from my viewpoint you’re looking for a reason to be mad at it just because you met a few unsavoury fans of the show.
  75. [8:40:18 PM] MaxieMarauder: Let the ego go.
  76. [8:40:25 PM] Yukari: "looking for a reason to be mad"
  77. [8:40:34 PM] Yukari: its like youre raiding derailing for dummies looking for legit arguments
  78. [8:40:52 PM] MaxieMarauder: No, I’m pointing out what you’re doing.
  79. [8:40:55 PM] Yukari: i have never actually argued with an honest to god fucking dudebro before congrats on popping my dudebro cherry
  80. [8:41:00 PM] MaxieMarauder: I already mentioned how they’re not racist.
  81. [8:41:09 PM] MaxieMarauder: Also I’m gay.
  82. [8:41:17 PM] Yukari: gay != not dudebro
  83. [8:41:24 PM] Yukari: i thought we in homestuck fandom knew that
  84. [8:41:25 PM] MaxieMarauder: That automatically makes me not dudebro, do not pass go, do not collect $200.
  85. [8:41:28 PM] Yukari: from kob
  86. [8:41:50 PM] MaxieMarauder: I’m not calling you to kill yourself and to eat shit over a cartoon.
  87. [8:43:03 PM] Yukari: so because youre not reacting with frothing furor that makes your refusal to acknowledge perspectives critiquing your favorite show OK
  88. [8:43:17 PM] Mindfag: While you're not looking to be mad
  89. [8:43:28 PM] Mindfag: You ARE looking for reasons why you dislike the show. Like, actively.
  90. [8:43:36 PM] MaxieMarauder: You can criticise, but I am criticising your misinformed criticism.
  91. [8:43:40 PM] Mindfag: How would you have known about those characters unless you actually went and looked around
  92. [8:43:48 PM] Mindfag: "What else can I find about this show that might be problematic?"
  93. [8:44:14 PM] Yukari: because i watched the show originally with the intent of seeing if i liked it
  94. [8:44:16 PM] MaxieMarauder: In which case, get a fucking life.
  95. [8:44:31 PM] Yukari: and the problematic content in those episodes put me off
  96. [8:44:33 PM] RB: It IS perfectly possible to encounter problematic things without seeking them out, though??
  97. [8:44:37 PM] RB: I mean, look at... well, life.
  98. [8:44:49 PM] MaxieMarauder: You clearly didn’t finish them or didn’t go away with the moral of the story.
  99. [8:44:50 PM] Yukari: (also a brony has no right to be telling anyone to get a life lmao)
  100. [8:45:21 PM] MaxieMarauder: Which is sort of your doing on the part of anger clouding your vision.
  101. [8:45:30 PM] Yukari: i saw the moral of the story
  102. [8:45:39 PM] MaxieMarauder: That everyone is the same?
  103. [8:45:52 PM] MaxieMarauder: That Zecora wasn’t an evil enchantress?
  104. [8:45:58 PM] Yukari: that everyone is supposed to be treated the same
  105. [8:46:04 PM] Yukari: and zecora is kind of a bamf character
  106. [8:46:10 PM] Yukari: but it doesnt excuse the needless "othering" going on
  107. [8:46:24 PM] MaxieMarauder: So there can’t be a little culture?
  108. [8:46:32 PM] Yukari: if zecora were an african PONY
  109. [8:46:34 PM | Edited 8:46:36 PM] MaxieMarauder: It should be all American, all the time. Right?
  110. [8:46:34 PM] Yukari: that would be different
  111. [8:46:42 PM] Yukari: but she was explicitly a zebra
  112. [8:46:45 PM] MaxieMarauder: Zebras are african animals.
  113. [8:46:50 PM] MaxieMarauder: They resemble horses.
  114. [8:46:55 PM] Yukari: but they arent
  115. [8:46:57 PM] MaxieMarauder: I don’t see the problem.
  116. [8:47:06 PM] MaxieMarauder: Was Gilda problematic because she wasn’t a pony, too?
  117. [8:47:15 PM] Yukari: no because gilda wasnt coded as "exotic african"
  118. [8:47:16 PM] MaxieMarauder: What about Discord?
  119. [8:47:25 PM] Yukari: discord wasnt coded as "magical native american"
  120. [8:47:41 PM] MaxieMarauder: Griffons aren’t african or native american.
  121. [8:47:51 PM] MaxieMarauder: Also where were the buffalos enterpreted as magical?
  122. [8:47:54 PM] Mindfag: Zecora is problematic not because she's a zebra, but because of that witch-doctor stereotype. That's definitely a problem with her character.
  123. [8:47:59 PM] Yukari: "magical native american" refers to the trope being employed
  124. [8:48:10 PM] MaxieMarauder: I know the trope.
  125. [8:48:18 PM] MaxieMarauder: Magical native americans are just that. Magical.
  126. [8:48:57 PM] MaxieMarauder: Also I don’t see witch doctor in Zecora. I see healing with herbs, whatever that was called.
  127. [8:49:19 PM] RB: Bovines and equines aren't even in the same superorder, so it's a little......
  128. [8:49:22 PM] MaxieMarauder: Which isn’t pinned down to just one culture.
  129. [8:49:34 PM] Yukari: her character was specifically designed to evoke that imagery
  130. [8:49:46 PM] MaxieMarauder: No but they looked cool enough in the usually all-pony style.
  131. [8:49:50 PM] Yukari: for the sake of a plot device
  132. [8:50:11 PM] Yukari: she could have been a regular pony who happened to come from a foreign place and was ostracized as a result
  133. [8:50:19 PM] Yukari: but she lived in a house with voodoo masks and a fucking cauldron
  134. [8:50:20 PM] MaxieMarauder: For the sake of providing a lesson.
  135. [8:50:24 PM] Yukari: why was that imagery evoked
  136. [8:50:32 PM] Yukari: when that imagery has been evoked to hurt black people many times in the past
  137. [8:50:32 PM] MaxieMarauder: Because culture.
  138. [8:50:38 PM] Yukari: whose culture
  139. [8:50:51 PM] MaxieMarauder: African culture, because she is an african animal.
  140. [8:50:53 PM] Yukari: "african" is not a culture
  141. [8:50:59 PM] Yukari: africa is a country
  142. [8:51:02 PM] Yukari: its relying on stereotypes
  143. [8:51:04 PM] RB: Yeah, you gotta be a hell of a lot more specific than that.
  144. [8:51:12 PM] MaxieMarauder: America is a country with a culture, too.
  145. [8:51:18 PM] cuttlefriend: africa is a continent*
  146. [8:51:18 PM] Yukari: *continent
  147. [8:51:19 PM] Yukari: derped
  148. [8:51:34 PM] Yukari: this is why i dont argue with bronies
  149. [8:51:51 PM] MaxieMarauder: I don’t claim to be an expert on african countries. That’s more my dad’s territory.
  150. [8:51:59 PM] Yukari: ok so ask him what culture zecora is
  151. [8:52:06 PM] MaxieMarauder: He hasn’t seen the episode.
  152. [8:52:16 PM] Mindfag: Get this, Yukari.
  153. [8:52:17 PM] MaxieMarauder: Besides, that isn’t really the point.
  154. [8:52:40 PM] Mindfag: Since it's so difficult for people of African descent to pinpoint exactly what part of or tribe of Africa they came from
  155. [8:52:51 PM] Mindfag: They frequently identify with one "African" culture
  156. [8:53:11 PM] Yukari: *American people of African descent
  157. [8:53:22 PM] Yukari: im p sure actual native africans dont have that attitude
  158. [8:53:24 PM] MaxieMarauder: Is the Lion King problematic for evoking specific types of imagery? Think Rafiki.
  159. [8:53:25 PM] Mindfag: Not just American.
  160. [8:53:33 PM] Yukari: either way if zecora is supposed to be presented as an actual native african
  161. [8:53:34 PM] Mindfag: European and Asian too.
  162. [8:53:35 PM] Yukari: thats a major oversight
  163. [8:53:49 PM] MaxieMarauder: Also, she’s not.
  164. [8:53:57 PM] MaxieMarauder: She’s supposed to be presented as a zebra.
  165. [8:54:05 PM] MaxieMarauder: Because she’s a zebra and not a human.
  166. [8:54:41 PM] Yukari: she's a zebra whose "culture" happens to exactly resemble a gross caricature of a real-life marginalized population
  167. [8:56:46 PM] Mindfag: I can admit some things about Zecora are problematic, along with the buffalo, but those things aren't that she is a zebra and that they are buffalo. And besides those things, while not handled perfectly, those cultures are handled with at least more care than MOST popular media bothers to use.
  168. [8:57:43 PM] Mindfag: While MLP could definitely improve on that, it's already leagues ahead other popular cartoons and shows that have ever portrayed anyone of immediate African or Native American descent.
  169. [8:58:06 PM] Mindfag: Which is most of them, at one point or another.
  170. [8:58:18 PM] MaxieMarauder: It’s certainly not reason enough to get so ridiculously mad that you could give yourself an ulcer.
  171. [8:58:28 PM] MaxieMarauder: Dumbo? Yeah, I’d say so.
  172. [8:58:39 PM] MaxieMarauder: But this isn’t Dumbo.
  173. [8:58:47 PM] RB: She's... not though? She's pointing out problematic elements and you're getting upset and saying they're not problematic.
  174. [8:58:55 PM] MaxieMarauder: I’m not upset.
  175. [8:59:03 PM] RB: Overly defensive, then.
  176. [8:59:30 PM] RB: It's not like it's not possible to acknowledge problematic issues in things and still enjoy those things.
  177. [8:59:36 PM] MaxieMarauder: I’d say my defence is justified considering how over the top /offensive/ she’s being.
  178. [8:59:46 PM] RB: ...How is she being offensive?
  179. [8:59:58 PM] MaxieMarauder: I meant offence in the opposite of defence.
  180. [9:00:10 PM] Mindfag: Aggressive
  181. [9:00:11 PM] Yukari: so
  182. [9:00:15 PM] MaxieMarauder: Yeah there we go.
  183. [9:00:22 PM] Yukari: you automatically perceive any critique as an aggression??
  184. [9:00:25 PM] MaxieMarauder: Communication problem. I can’t words.
  185. [9:00:39 PM] MaxieMarauder: It’s far from critique.
  186. [9:00:46 PM] RB: Well, if you say to someone "this part of x makes me uncomfortable" and someone gets defensive about it and tells you "that's because you're interpreting it wrong"...
  187. [9:01:36 PM | Edited 9:01:38 PM] MaxieMarauder: ...Things don’t have to always be so offensive if you’d interpret it differently. This cannot be applied to every case, obviously, but this is a cartoon.
  188. [9:01:44 PM] Yukari: cartoons can be offensive
  189. [9:01:50 PM] Yukari: cartoons can be disgustingly offensive
  190. [9:01:55 PM] MaxieMarauder: This one wasn’t.
  191. [9:01:56 PM] Yukari: just look at any of those old loony tunes propaganda vids
  192. [9:02:03 PM] MaxieMarauder: This wasn’t one of those.
  193. [9:02:30 PM] RB: But the caricature nature of cartooning lends itself very easily to offensive stereotyping, intentionally or otherwise.
  194. [9:02:49 PM] MaxieMarauder: [8:56 PM] Mindfag:
  195.  
  196. <<< I can admit some things about Zecora are problematic, along with the buffalo, but those things aren't that she is a zebra and that they are buffalo. And besides those things, while not handled perfectly, those cultures are handled with at least more care than MOST popular media bothers to use.
  197. While MLP could definitely improve on that, it's already leagues ahead other popular cartoons and shows that have ever portrayed anyone of immediate African or Native American descent.
  198. Which is most of them, at one point or another.
  199. [9:03:46 PM] MaxieMarauder: Also, Zebra.
  200. [9:03:48 PM] Mindfag: If you're going to get up in arms about MLP, do it about the fandom instead of the actual show itself. Few shows handle anything more tastefully, honestly. At least when it comes to cartoons. It's cool to critique the show itself, too, but here it's clearly coming from your dislike of the fandom so much that you want to find flaws in the actual show itself.
  201. [9:04:00 PM] Yukari: look
  202. [9:04:01 PM] Mindfag: Surprise, you found some, and you were bound to just how you were in any other show.
  203. [9:04:02 PM] Yukari: understand one thing
  204. [9:04:05 PM] RB: I don't actually give a fuck about the fandom?
  205. [9:04:10 PM] Yukari: pertaining to the zebra thing
  206. [9:04:13 PM] Yukari: you have to understand
  207. [9:04:17 PM] Yukari: that historically
  208. [9:04:21 PM] Yukari: there has been precedent
  209. [9:04:25 PM] Yukari: to treat different races
  210. [9:04:26 PM] MaxieMarauder: Zebra.
  211. [9:04:29 PM] Yukari: as being entirely different fucking species
  212. [9:04:46 PM] Yukari: and when that carries over to media in the 21st century
  213. [9:04:54 PM] MaxieMarauder: Guess how Zecora was treated at the end of the episode.
  214. [9:04:56 PM] Yukari: you have to understand why that would make people uncomfortable
  215. [9:04:58 PM] RB: I find problematic shit in a lot of stuff I enjoy, but I don't get up in arms over it when people point out the problematic stuff.
  216. [9:05:03 PM] Yukari: i know how zecora was treated
  217. [9:05:06 PM] Yukari: she was still portrayed
  218. [9:05:09 PM] Yukari: as a different species
  219. [9:05:11 PM] Yukari: from all the other
  220. [9:05:12 PM] Yukari: "raceless" ponies
  221. [9:05:19 PM] MaxieMarauder: They’re animals.
  222. [9:05:33 PM] MaxieMarauder: There are different types of animals on the planet.
  223. [9:05:38 PM] Yukari: its racial coding
  224. [9:05:44 PM] RB: Like, I'm a Code Geass fan, and it's got some weird-ass perspectives on imperialism and making out the Japanese to be an oppressed people, considering what the Japanese have historically done and categorically refuse to admit to doing.
  225. [9:05:45 PM] Yukari: and when you racially code certain characters
  226. [9:05:47 PM] MaxieMarauder: It’s Zebra.
  227. [9:05:52 PM] RB: But I still like it.
  228. [9:05:52 PM] Yukari: you are implicitly setting up the contrast as the default culture
  229. [9:05:55 PM] Yukari: which in this case is whiteness
  230. [9:06:03 PM] MaxieMarauder: It’s pony.
  231. [9:06:10 PM] Yukari: its whiteness
  232. [9:06:12 PM] MaxieMarauder: Pony.
  233. [9:06:21 PM] RB: Pony is coded as whiteness
  234. [9:06:21 PM] MaxieMarauder: Is Twilight Sparkle white?
  235. [9:06:28 PM] RB: Pony
  236. [9:06:29 PM] RB: is
  237. [9:06:29 PM] MaxieMarauder: She’s purple.
  238. [9:06:29 PM] Yukari: twilight sparkle is "aracialy coded"
  239. [9:06:30 PM] RB: coded
  240. [9:06:32 PM] RB: as white
  241. [9:06:33 PM] Yukari: *aracially
  242. [9:06:45 PM] MaxieMarauder: Then she’s not white if she’s aracially coded.
  243. [9:06:45 PM] Yukari: except that you dont get to code some characters racially and some not
  244. [9:07:07 PM] RB: Because unfortunately in our society "aracial" defaults to white.
  245. [9:07:08 PM] MaxieMarauder: Really? But you just said that Zecora was African and Twilight was of no race.
  246. [9:07:23 PM] Yukari: i put "aracial" in quotes
  247. [9:07:27 PM] Yukari: because there is no such goddamn thing
  248. [9:07:31 PM] RB: Yeah.
  249. [9:07:40 PM] MaxieMarauder: Then what is Twilight?
  250. [9:07:42 PM] MaxieMarauder: She’s purple.
  251. [9:08:13 PM] Yukari: twilight is presented as "neutral" in a society that is predominantly white and american
  252. [9:08:18 PM] Yukari: in order to be perceived as neutral
  253. [9:08:24 PM] Yukari: she would have to appeal to things which are white and american
  254. [9:08:37 PM] MaxieMarauder: Nothing is white and american.
  255. [9:08:41 PM] MaxieMarauder: It’s just things.
  256. [9:08:41 PM] Yukari: i should correct that statement by "in" i mean "to"
  257. [9:08:44 PM] MaxieMarauder: Things are not races.
  258. [9:08:44 PM] Yukari: in terms of audience
  259. [9:09:14 PM] 8ird: http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/zecora_9590.jpg
  260. http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/chief_thunderhooves_by_NightmareMoonS_9661.png
  261. http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/LittleStrongheartCharacter_629.png
  262.  
  263. the only racially coded characters
  264. [9:09:32 PM] MaxieMarauder: They’re buffalo and zebra.
  265. [9:09:32 PM] 8ird: why do they have to be different?
  266. [9:09:43 PM] 8ird: why cant they be ponies... with culture?
  267. [9:09:49 PM] 8ird: why do they have to be ddifferent species
  268. [9:09:56 PM] MaxieMarauder: Because the artists wanted to draw something that wasn’t a pony?
  269. [9:10:05 PM | Edited 9:10:05 PM] MaxieMarauder: To demonstrate other animals exist in Equestria?
  270. [9:10:30 PM] Mindfag: In a recent episode of House, one woman came in with symptoms of pregnancy but denied this because herself and her husband have never had sex. She claimed to be asexual, and so did her husband.
  271. In a form of erasure that made me totally feel uncomfortable, it turned out the guy had a tumor on his pituatary gland and that the woman had been only pretending all along. Basically, this episode said that no one is REALLY asexual, the same way an episode in an earlier season one time seemed to say that open relationships are impossible.
  272. These are bad things about the show, but there are so many other things that the show does well that I see these and am willing to give them a pass, because it's popular media and you can't expect, unfortunately, popular media to be perfectly non-racist and non-discriminatory.
  273. [9:11:03 PM] RB: I can't give House a pass because he would've had his medical license revoked by the end of the first episode, but
  274. [9:11:08 PM] Mindfag: The point here is that they're trying, and honestly, when it comes to just making them ponies with that culture, it could still totally be problematic because then they would be whitewashing the characters.
  275. [9:11:13 PM] Yukari: if you are willing to acknowledge the problematic elements that is ok
  276. [9:11:24 PM] MaxieMarauder: [9:11 PM] RB:
  277.  
  278. <<< I can't give House a pass because he would've had his medical license revoked by the end of the first episodeNot even the point, try again.
  279. [9:11:26 PM] Yukari: but if your immediate response to having the problematic elements pointed out is
  280. [9:11:35 PM] Yukari: "youre interrogating the text from the wrong perspective"
  281. [9:11:44 PM] Yukari: then you need to reevaluate your conduct
  282. [9:11:49 PM] Mindfag: Are you familiar with Star Trek: The Next Generation?
  283. [9:12:00 PM] MaxieMarauder: You’re seeing something horribly offensive where it does not exist, at least not in that quantity.
  284. [9:12:06 PM] MaxieMarauder: It’s misinformed.
  285. [9:12:09 PM] 8ird: its just kinda problematic that in a show that proclaims to be more progressive, that the only racially coded characters have to be an ENTIRELY different species than the "aracial"/white "normal" ponies
  286.  
  287. and it makes it worse when bronies keep saying that anyone who takes offense to that is "wrong"
  288. [9:12:10 PM] Yukari: youre not seeing something horribly offensive
  289. [9:12:11 PM] MaxieMarauder: Because Zebra.
  290. [9:12:22 PM] Yukari: because you have the privilege of getting to block out the offensive things
  291. [9:12:35 PM] 8ird: and the way you guys keep derailing the conversation by talking about other shows and dodging the situation doesnt help
  292. [9:12:40 PM] Yukari: you dont have to acknowledge them because they dont hurt you personally
  293. [9:12:53 PM] Yukari: imagine how youd feel if mlp decided to incorporate a gay caricature
  294. [9:12:59 PM] MaxieMarauder: I could decide to be easily angered by Rainbow Dash.
  295. [9:13:10 PM] MaxieMarauder: But she’s a fucking pony.
  296. [9:13:14 PM] Yukari: what does rainbow dash have to do with anyfuckingthing
  297. [9:13:20 PM] MaxieMarauder: I’m gay, remember?
  298. [9:13:20 PM] Yukari: shes not a caricature shes a main character
  299. [9:13:26 PM] Mindfag: I have a point to this.
  300. [9:13:29 PM] Yukari: shes not presented as gay
  301. [9:13:30 PM] Mindfag: Are you familiar with TNG?
  302. [9:13:35 PM] MaxieMarauder: I could easily interpret her as gay.
  303. [9:13:41 PM] Yukari: but she isnt coded as gay
  304. [9:13:44 PM] MaxieMarauder: I could easily interpret her as negative lesbian stereotypes.
  305. [9:13:48 PM] MaxieMarauder: Yeah, she sort of is.
  306. [9:13:51 PM] Mindfag: Specifically the black guy from TNG, Geordi La Forge, the guy with the weird-ass visor?
  307. [9:13:52 PM] MaxieMarauder: Except she’s not.
  308. [9:13:54 PM] MaxieMarauder: Becuase she’s a pony.
  309. [9:14:18 PM] Yukari: why the fuck are you bringing tng into this
  310. [9:14:22 PM] Mindfag: How many times do you think they mentioned in the show that he was black?
  311. [9:14:27 PM] MaxieMarauder: He said he has a point, let him type.
  312. [9:14:49 PM] Yukari: re: rainbow dash
  313. [9:14:56 PM] cuttlefriend: (゜。゜)
  314. [9:15:06 PM] Yukari: the thing is that the elements of her character that could potentially be construed as stereotypical
  315. [9:15:14 PM] Yukari: are never integral to the plot of any episode in any way
  316. [9:15:35 PM] MaxieMarauder: But what if they are?
  317. [9:15:35 PM] Yukari: in the way that the zebra episode makes a big deal out of zecora being a WOO EVIL ENCHANTRESS
  318. [9:15:42 PM] Yukari: they havent been though
  319. [9:15:49 PM] MaxieMarauder: They won’t be, because sexuality in a cartoon, but what if they were?
  320. [9:16:06 PM] MaxieMarauder: What if her gender identity was called into question?
  321. [9:16:13 PM] MaxieMarauder: “Girls can’t be like that”
  322. [9:16:49 PM] Yukari: why would the show call her gender identity into question
  323. [9:17:08 PM] RB: pffft like a major franchise would actually do that shit on mainstream tv
  324. [9:17:17 PM] RB: on a kids' show
  325. [9:17:22 PM] RB: dealing with issues of gender identity
  326. [9:17:29 PM] MaxieMarauder: In a sense that girls can’t be like that?
  327. [9:17:33 PM] Yukari: but
  328. [9:17:43 PM] Yukari: she is already largely accepted as she is within the shows worldbuilding
  329. [9:17:52 PM] MaxieMarauder: Perhaps gender identity is the wrong way to put it.
  330. [9:17:57 PM] MaxieMarauder: The whole tomboy thing.
  331. [9:18:09 PM] Yukari: it wouldnt make sense for the show to redact that
  332. [9:18:22 PM] Yukari: her tomboyish aspects are celebrated
  333. [9:18:32 PM] MaxieMarauder: You’re missing the entire fucking point, but that’s okay, I expected this from you.
  334. [9:18:40 PM] Yukari: then what
  335. [9:18:42 PM] Yukari: is
  336. [9:18:42 PM] Yukari: point
  337. [9:18:43 PM] Yukari: your
  338. [9:18:48 PM] MaxieMarauder: You’re also not letting my boyfriend get to his TNG point.
  339. [9:18:58 PM] Yukari: tng isnt fucking relevant to the conversation
  340. [9:18:59 PM] MaxieMarauder: I explained that above, you’re just not reading.
  341. [9:19:12 PM] MaxieMarauder: He said he had a point.
  342. [9:19:18 PM] MaxieMarauder: He hasn’t made it, so we don’t know yet.
  343. [9:19:41 PM] MaxieMarauder: But you seem to be a judgemental little kid, so I am not surprised.
  344. [9:19:53 PM] RB: can we
  345. [9:19:54 PM] RB: not
  346. [9:19:58 PM] RB: with the ad hominem please
  347. [9:20:53 PM] RB: I know arguments on the internet always end up devolving into that on one side or the other eventually but that is irrelevant to the discussion.
  348. [9:21:13 PM] Mindfag: In the entirety of The Next Generation, not ONE time is it mentioned that Geordi is black, and that is a HUGE problem.
  349. They make a big deal out of Picard's frenchness and other character's backgrounds but no, Geordi's blackness is untouchable. It's like his culture doesn't exist.
  350. With MLP, it is a reverse case. You say that it would be better if Zecora were just a pony the way everyone else is a pony, and I disagree. If people psychologically "default" to the ponies being white, which isn't always a thing that happens by the way, you'd essentially be giving African culture to a white character and that's a really shitty thing to do. It would be just as bad as Geordi's mysterious no-culture and a pretty white girl marginalizing Native Americans by taking photos of herself wearing a stereotypical headdress. I liked that they made Zecora different, yet the same, in that yes, she's a Zebra so not technically the same "species" as the other ponies, yet she's in the same genus. She's still an equine. It's almost exactly like a different race. They're the same but different enough that they deserve their own label and culture.
  351. [9:21:37 PM] Mindfag: The buffalo in MLP I can't defend so easily, perhaps for them it'd be better if they were made to be wild horses instead.
  352. [9:22:42 PM] MaxieMarauder: [9:21 PM] Mindfag:
  353.  
  354. <<< It would be just as bad as Geordi's mysterious no-culture and a pretty white girl marginalizing Native Americans by taking photos of herself wearing a stereotypical headdress.Which, by the way, one of my native american friends really fucking hates that shit, much more than a cartoon
  355. [9:23:23 PM] Mindfag: The kind that you would have actually seen in America back then. That probably would've been better, I admit.
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