7:36 PM] breadwitchery: right ok so

i just did notes on notepad as i read so feel free to like, pick apart a particular point
- i VERY MUCH like that diana doing char's route is a timeline shenanigan thing as opposed to a random thing that Happens to show up in replays.
- i also prefer diana knowing 100% of what char did
- PERSONALLY i think diana going back to "save" char is something that can be done without completely bastardising her character, especially if diana is thinking less abt char personally and more about General Fallout and then happens to get into a foe yay thing. especially since di wants to be important so bad
- i think dei's notes on char that are on the pastebin should be moved to the style guide or Somewhere so that everyone else can see them, bc she says some really useful stuff abt char's character
- i like ice skating CG for dec more than new year's, in my head that's more unique
- i agree seb is in good shape, he's one of the most identifiable and enjoyable characters so far imo
[7:36 PM] breadwitchery: also i believe dei asks if char's murders should be divinely """justified""" or something? and i think it'd be cool if they were, but that's me
[7:37 PM] breadwitchery: like, characters who are very "I'M DOING WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE " and technically that thing Does need to be done or at least some force believes so, so that character isn't Entirely deluded
[7:37 PM] breadwitchery: that kinda adds to the tragedy for me but :shrug:
[7:37 PM] olivinearc: Man side note I didn't realize I was on E so this might take a bit. Longer
[7:38 PM] breadwitchery: was it an ecstasy cookie
[7:38 PM] olivinearc: No my gas
[7:41 PM] breadwitchery: welp i have like a good hour so no worries!
[7:41 PM] olivinearc: Ayyy lmap
[7:47 PM] olivinearc: OK btw since this is taking longer than I'd planned
[7:47 PM] olivinearc: You got my concern about char, or
[7:48 PM] olivinearc: Bc pillow. Didn't quite grasp it
[7:49 PM] breadwitchery: honestly i don't want to fall into the same misunderstanding as dei so if you could re-tell it to me i'd appreciate it
[7:49 PM] breadwitchery: just to avoid me driving into that sinkhole
[7:50 PM] olivinearc: Just sort of how char seems interesting on paper but once you think about it execution wise it feels a little weak
[7:50 PM] breadwitchery: (sorry for askin u to repeat urself )
[7:51 PM] olivinearc: She's all big concept and a loss of humanity but also there's nothing she can give, and her status and prominence as an antagonist is questionable at best in the not good way
[7:51 PM] olivinearc: Nah ur fine it's hard for me to explain
[7:54 PM] breadwitchery: i can definitely see how there can be a worry of charlotte ringing hollow, especially because the antagonist being like "this is for the GREATER GOOD" is a really common trope.  i do think in general it lacks any new interesting features to it (that motivation as a trope, i mean) which is why i'd enjoy it more if the murders really Were divinely approved
 i think dei has some good, three-dimensional points on her characterisation, about how one-sided a lot of what char does is, but i think char is kind of a double-edged sword bc my impression of her at least is
[7:55 PM] breadwitchery: she's very different from most of the characters, especially since she's so directly connected to heaven and such, and her general demeanour when interacting w/ di feels like she's looking @ life through a glass box or something
which is cool, and Different, but also means she can ring aloof and hollow
[7:56 PM] breadwitchery: i think as an antagonist as long as charlotte has a lot of moments where she's clearly A Threat, it strengthens her
to me it'd strengthen her more if it manifest in her losing her shit and suddenly being very "wEll NotHing MaTTerS" bc she lived by a code initially, even if it was morally questionable
and if she's abandoning that code, then the player's understanding of her capabilities kinda has to blow out to "oh she could do Anything"
[7:56 PM] breadwitchery: idk does that make sense is this helpful at All omg
[7:56 PM] breadwitchery: sorry i just rambled
[7:57 PM] olivinearc: No ur good, I'm almost home
[8:01 PM] olivinearc: OKAY HOME
[8:01 PM] olivinearc: god i'm sorry i didn't expect All That
[8:01 PM] breadwitchery: it's okay!!
[8:02 PM] olivinearc: and yeah i think we have some overlapping thoughts
[8:02 PM] olivinearc: lemme... find one more lil convo bc pillow hit me up ngl
[8:02 PM] olivinearc: https://pastebin.com/Nu35DSLJ it's shorter dw
Pastebin
6:07 PM] Pillowcase: i'm not sure i completely understood what you...

[8:05 PM] breadwitchery: okay just looked over it!! i think while it's good to nip this kind of issue in the bud so it's good you've noticed this currently, it might be something that becomes more prominently an issue OR works itself out once charlotte's scenes are actually written out and we can witness her properly, dialogue and all
i think her "school shooter" vibe is slightly lightened by the tiny jokes she makes and the fact that in their first meeting, from what i saw at least, she comes off as more aloof and strange than straight-up standoffish
[8:06 PM] breadwitchery: "i feel like some kind of "hard to approach" thing would work for her, though, but you could have her be softer at the core? thus making it kind of a double twist when she's revealed to be the killer
[6:32 PM] Pillowcase: softer in the sense that she has claws out initially when meeting people but maybe di does something she likes or helps her in some way and she gives di a gift in person or something" i like this a lot
[8:06 PM] breadwitchery: and  i think that's very realistic,  that's something i can imagine an evil person irl doing
[8:07 PM] breadwitchery: serial killers had partners friends or kids they didn't hurt even if it fit their profiel
[8:07 PM] breadwitchery: profile*
[8:08 PM] olivinearc: oh tbf, harley
[8:08 PM] olivinearc: char halloween is totally not canon, straight up
[8:08 PM] olivinearc: both her and ev never have an ice cube's chance to meet di at the party in their respective routes, i think
[8:08 PM] breadwitchery: DANG
[8:08 PM] breadwitchery: cat time is GONE
[8:09 PM] olivinearc: we mostly did that bc if we did full antag char that'd be a mess
[8:09 PM] olivinearc: gotta sell the chars as they'd be in their route routes
[8:09 PM] olivinearc: tbh i had absolutely no say or witness to char's route
[8:09 PM] breadwitchery: ah makes sense
[8:09 PM] olivinearc: in the demo
[8:09 PM] olivinearc: i was too busy juggling the rest and i just had to trust rev and dei to sort it out in the meantime
[8:09 PM] breadwitchery: oof, scary
[8:11 PM] olivinearc: but yeah i do think char has this sort of like
[8:11 PM] olivinearc: hard to approach thing about her, main route
[8:12 PM] olivinearc: but also the whole fact that char only has like one or two scenes a month
[8:12 PM] olivinearc: i think it said in outline but with the whole "justified" death thing it was always char was presented a test by an angel basically going "hey so kill these people for us and get redemption?" and she just. blindly followed it without considering hey this sounds kinda not-heavenly
[8:13 PM] breadwitchery: i mean if we go off old testament.......
[8:15 PM] olivinearc: mm, yeah, this is a lil bit problematic
[8:15 PM] olivinearc: another reason i kinda wanna just
[8:15 PM] olivinearc: readjust her course a little
[8:15 PM] olivinearc: i don't want her to be the arch nemesis to yv, i know that much, but
[8:16 PM] olivinearc: it'd have to be some sort of dynamic where di isn't holding the idiotball and it's not a stupid moment for - well
[8:16 PM] olivinearc: di could have a pretty decent idea of who killed doc, depending on the circumstances??
[8:17 PM] breadwitchery: imo di is the sort to happily operate off a hunch if the hunch has some good evidence
[8:18 PM] olivinearc: like, i think my main vibe is
[8:19 PM] olivinearc: charlotte is blind but she isn't Smart or Cunning
[8:19 PM] olivinearc: she's a feral beast rn, and while there's an appeal to that, it means dealing with her is a lot more simple
[8:19 PM] olivinearc: that is to say, don't associate and tell the other vamps what's going down bc there's that delicate balance, just like in heathers, of dancing with danger and literally hanging out with someone who shot two jocks
[8:22 PM] breadwitchery: hm yeah
i guess when someone isn't able to evade being stopped, the other options are that they're just too strong to be stopped or there's some kind of intervention that protects them?
i'm not sure honestly, i can see where u being stumped is coming from, i think a minor suspension of disbelief might be needed for some bits of char's plot just bc of how connected to the divine it is
[8:23 PM] breadwitchery: sorry for being unhelpful currently, i'm just trying to wrap my head around the char stuff considering she hasn't had many Scenes or anything for me to read
[8:23 PM] breadwitchery: which is why i'm like "maybe it'll iron out in writing"
[8:23 PM] olivinearc: oh no ur fine
[8:23 PM] olivinearc: i do think it's uhhh
[8:23 PM] olivinearc: man if we can have another call that'd be really nice, but primarily
[8:24 PM] olivinearc: as it stands rn we're doing the whole char wants Forgiveness, willing to kill for it, argues with di about it potentially in situations where di can't escape or char gets a lil more charisma
[8:24 PM] olivinearc: ?
[8:25 PM] breadwitchery: we definitely can tomorrow night or friday night if u want!! the engineer comes tomorrow morning

yeah, i think that sounds good. if we go with di being unable to escape the situation i think that should be lampshaded as a weakness of charlotte's character if possible
like the only reason di can't get away isn't necessarily because charlotte's cooked something up, it's due to something else
[8:25 PM] breadwitchery: bc that'll be a Flaw and god knows powerful antags Need Flaws
[8:26 PM] olivinearc: right, but i think it won't fly
[8:27 PM] olivinearc: just bc di is almost circumstancial to it all, like char sees her and it's all "i mean you're interesting but you're not the end goal" end of the day
[8:27 PM] olivinearc: and bc she's currently so bullheaded and lacking in charisma it's like... why even bother to stop and talk with di, yknow
[8:27 PM] olivinearc: she doesn't give any room to capitalize on and make any encounter interesting
[8:29 PM] breadwitchery: hm okay yeah that definitely puts several wrenches in the works for especially a personal route
not to sound all "just fucking THROW IN DEUS EX MACHINA, JUST DO IT", i'm just throwing ideas at the wall to see what sticks -- can we give char a Reason to particularly imprint on di in any way? e.g. di is really similar to someone char used to know a la killing eve, or char perceives di as fulfilling some vague-ass prophecy
[8:30 PM] breadwitchery: an external factor wouldn't be Terrible if the writers want to keep char so bullheaded
[8:32 PM] olivinearc: this is main route, tho
[8:33 PM] olivinearc: i'm not even considering char route besides that, potentially, it'd be nice to have the time travel just because otherwise char is irredeemable and it shows both di's bad points but also that even she has lines she doesn't want to cross, and she isn't crazy about liking char until char gets her shit together
[8:36 PM] breadwitchery: (“di’s bad points” god i love our tiny flawed heroine)
MMMMM honestly i’m out of ideas other than upping char’s nuance, when her lack of nuance is something i like, or just giving it some time. while on a planning level it might look like char has nothing to contribute conversationally/won’t be compelling, dei might work some magic bc dei Does seem to have a lot of thought behind char when char could easily be 1d
[8:36 PM] breadwitchery: like i get ur frustration and it makes sense but i worry it might be an “up to the writer” kind of thing
[8:37 PM] olivinearc: yyyeah
[8:37 PM] olivinearc: i think at the cusp of it all is just what her role is in the main game
[8:37 PM] olivinearc: how she really does talk to di and when and why
[8:37 PM] olivinearc: bc when dei was like "their first meeting is them exchanging eye contact for a hot second" it's like. that's not going to fly. that's too anime even for this VN.
[8:37 PM] olivinearc: that'd be awkward in execution.
[8:40 PM] breadwitchery: eye contact first meetings being significant outside of anime [WHEEZE]
i remember dei was considering Holy Magic Shenanigans as well??

i think di being the initiator of most of it is a good idea, even if a tiny bit awkward, bc it places her in her “i want to DO THINGS” role. why charlotte gives her the time of day during those scenes, i think is situational and again maybe up to the writer here. di and charlotte’s dynamic as far as i understood it when doing the style guide was abt charlotte projecting on di and taking a particular interest in her bc of that
[8:40 PM] breadwitchery: that just doesn’t translate well when it’s protag/antag
[8:40 PM] breadwitchery: unless it’s killing eve. i feel strong killing eve vibes
[8:41 PM] olivinearc: she considered it but then i askeed her "so how is dei gonna teach her about holy magic if she's a vampire" and she was all "oh shit"
[8:41 PM] olivinearc: "esp if hunter already exists"
[8:41 PM] olivinearc: altho you mention the whole, diana agency thing
[8:41 PM] olivinearc: i sort of like the idea of -
[8:41 PM] olivinearc: so swt is big on 1) diana's agency and 2) to not be a shut-in, it's very anti-isolationist
[8:42 PM] olivinearc: so while we can still have char embody that at the end of the day, i think we need to rearrange her goals and her methods
[8:42 PM] olivinearc: i actually found this cool article that we may be able to utilize
[8:43 PM] olivinearc: https://digital.library.txstate.edu/bitstream/handle/10877/6467/Schmidt,LaurenFinal.pdf?sequence=1
[8:43 PM] olivinearc: if we want to try to approach organizing in a diff way
[8:43 PM] breadwitchery: (walking home so i’ll be like five min sorry)
[8:43 PM] olivinearc: no no sweat
[8:43 PM] olivinearc: i know it's been more than an hour so,, thank you so much,,
[8:44 PM] olivinearc: I REALLY NEED THIS TALK MAN
[8:46 PM] olivinearc: like admittedly i do have a soft spot for that hannibal sort of antag, where char is charismatic and cheeky and vampiric but is still unrepentantly about her goals (and maybe is similar to JD in that sense!! heathers!!) and when di goes in solo char just fucking flips her switch and throws the fuck down
[8:46 PM] olivinearc: bc i do want di to almost die
[8:46 PM] olivinearc: i need that scene where satan talks toher, it's a darling i'm grasping
[8:49 PM] breadwitchery: it’s ok!!! i’m just sorry i don’t have more time bc Timezones
but i can chitchat while i make avocado toast lmaoo
that DOES SOUND DARLING TBH
and i like that kind of antag too, especially with female villains
[8:50 PM] breadwitchery: so i think that’d work
i am visualising a very hannibal dynamic w their foe yay honestly
[8:50 PM] olivinearc: so like i think half my hesitation with char is sincere plot hole issues w/ her characterization and half "hey i want something very much Not-current-iteration Char
[8:56 PM] breadwitchery: i think the plot hole issue stuff is definitely Hella Important and should be addressed before writing gets done-done on char
it might help maybe to write up like, very clearly  what you Need from charlotte plot-wise
and what you don’t like about her trait-wise
and present that to dei (and any editors i guess too!) and see what they make of it
[8:56 PM] breadwitchery: like bullet point bare bones level stuff
[8:56 PM] breadwitchery: and that might help to unpick it?
[8:56 PM] olivinearc: mm
[8:57 PM] olivinearc: tbf my og thing of her was just "so someone kills the doctor bc we can't do literal literal direct suicide and everyone deals with the fallout after the excitement of catching Who Did It happens"
[8:57 PM] olivinearc: so yea now it's meat time
[9:07 PM] olivinearc: lksfskldsd but i am glad Someone Gets It