Nixon Colson Who's Involved in Watergate February 13 1973

A discussion between Richard Nixon and Charles Colson that begins with the point of Patrick Gray as nominee for FBI Director, and then swirls around the president's usual obsessions. Who exactly knew about the Watergate break-in beforehand? Did Jeb Magruder? Did John Mitchell, or is he just very good at lying? "I don't know. I don't remember what was said," quotes Colson, imitating the former Attorney General. Who will be saved, who will be burned, who will be kept from congressional inquiry, and who will be allowed to appear? "Either you have to have a John Mitchell type memory or not appear," says Colson.

This conversation can be found on the following audio file, starting at 5:10 and ending at 18:12:
http://www.nixonlibrary.gov/forresearchers/find/tapes/tape854/854-017b.mp3

Audio with transcript is on youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4h-9imqobKk

FEBRUARY 13, 1973: THE PRESIDENT AND COLSON, 9:48 TO 10:52 A.M., OVAL OFFICE

PRESIDENT NIXON: Well, anyway. Let's talk the other candidate. Webster [George Webster, their pick to head the IRS], you need a man there. Would you keep [Patrick] Gray?

COLSON: Yes sir, I would now.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Now...you could send him to the Senate for confirmation.

COLSON: Ah, yup. I would.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Why?

COLSON: Well, because first of all, I-I could back him up with a very strong Deputy. Ah, because I think if you took Gray out now, with all of the turmoil in the Bureau and every ah-, the- the everything that's goin' on in that Bureau is being leaked out.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Yeah. Well, how could we stop it? (Unintelligible)

COLSON: Ah, by creating certainity. You see, I'm afraid one of the problems over there is that there isn't anybody who knows they're in charge. Ah, now...

PRESIDENT NIXON: Who's the Deputy you have in mind?

COLSON: Well, I'd suggest that Bill Sullivan is ah he's ah-

PRESIDENT NIXON: They say he's persona non grata with a lot of them...

COLSON: Oh, he is.

PRESIDENT NIXON: He was on Hoover's channel.

COLSON: Well, he was our man, that's-

PRESIDENT NIXON: I know.

COLSON: Ah, Al Haig has called me yesterday and said, Jesus, ya know, get Sullivan back in there. Ah, Haig is very high on Sullivan. I don't know Sullivan, but I know of so many people who do think highly of him, and that those are all the people I-

PRESIDENT NIXON: What about putting [William] Ruckelshaus in that job? Do you think that would be a good idea?

COLSON: No, sir. I don't think so.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Do you think it might also be a reflection on Gray --Vesco's (unintelligible) investigation of Watergate appearance?

COLSON: Yeah. I think in a way it is. And ah, you might want to move Gray at the end of the year, but ah, I'd get through this year without, without rockin' that boat and I would try to got in ah, confirm Gray he's after all-, Gray's loyalty to, to you...

PRESIDENT NIXON: Totally.

COLSON: Totally. So, give him the strength and back him up with some tough people and ah, make sure he- make sure he understands what he has to do. I mean there- ah, the most important thing over there is to be God damn sure th-that the Department and that Bureau understand that ah, we've got enough troubles with the Hill without creating any more for ourselves.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Right.

COLSON: And this is a partisan game. This is no longer Law Enforcement or Investigation. This is part of...

PRESIDENT NIXON: Sure. What'd you mean, Watergate?

COLSON: Watergate.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Oh, hell, yes.

COLSON: And ah, I-I read this.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Partisan press news never heard of Tom Huston, Mr. Civil Liberties. Shit. Ehrlichman. Goddamn racist. (Unintelligible) everything. (Laughs)

COLSON: Hysterical. But they're gonna make a, they'll have a political circus. Ah, but it is...

PRESIDENT NIXON: Remember how they built up that poor jackass Ralph Flanders [Vermont Senator who introduced motion to censure Joe McCarthy]?

COLSON: Yeah.

PRESIDENT NIXON: (Unintelligible) When he--McCarthy built him up as a great saint, poor bastard. Well, he's an idiot.

COLSON: Well...

PRESIDENT NIXON: He's a sweet guy, Ralph Flanders. (Unintelligible)

COLSON: Well, no, he was nothin'.

PRESIDENT NIXON: But he took McCarthy out.

COLSON: McCarthy's great comment about bring the butterfly net (unintelligible) (Laughs)

PRESIDENT NIXON: Oh, God, I wish we had, I wish we had more of Pat Gray's. Well any way, that's that. Oh, so long- I got (unintelligible) that issue. I feel that there's a couple of good guys who work around here, everyone around here forgets the God damn thing in the White House. (unintelligible) (noise). (cough) You just figure you're gonna have some leaks, television, press- and just say that's underneath us. (cough) Ah, ah, how do you feel? Is there anything else you could do?

COLSON: Well, the only thing you can do Mr. President...

PRESIDENT NIXON: I mean if you can't, you've got to get for example Magruder's operation, Haldeman, and Ehrlichman and the rest, Dean-

COLSON: Yes.

PRESIDENT NIXON: If they all get into this, they're gonna go through the ITT thing in spades.

COLSON: Well, of course, that's what they want to do to us, you know? That's-the whole point of that ex-exercise...

PRESIDENT NIXON: To burn some others.

COLSON: Correct. Correct.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Now don't you agree we should stay away?

COLSON: I think we have to- I don't think there's any choice but to, but to go up there and tough it through. And ah, I do think we have to be very, very hard-nosed to that committee. And ah, if they want Haldeman, Ehrlichman, me, I'm sure they will, ah we have to limit the areas that they're gonna go into, and I mean-

PRESIDENT NIXON: Well, I'm not sure. The best thing there (unintelligible) you can let them have lower people like, ah, Chapin and Strachan and the rest- Hell, I never talked to Chapin and Strachan and the rest- Let them have them, and ah, but in terms of the people that are direct advisors to the President you can say they can do it by written interrogatories, by having, uh, Ervin and (unintelligible), ah majority, the two counsel, majority and minority leaders do it- written interrogatories but don't go up there on television.

COLSON: Mmmmhmmm.

PRESIDENT NIXON: I'll bet some feel that's a possible compromise.

COLSON: I think it's a good compromise. Ah, there's a risk, ya know, but ah...

PRESIDENT NIXON: They may not-they may not accept it. But uh, I don't think- I had thought that maybe we ought to j-just harden and say nobody can go. I'm afraid that that gives an appearance of total cover-up, which would bother me a bit, you know what I mean, I should just say no, you can't have Chapin, you can't have Strachan, you can't have, ya-know, and since the White House won't allow anybody-you may let them have some others. I don't know. I mean maybe we could think about it. I, I can't get him to talk about it just to testify. That'll break it down to Kissinger-break it down to Haldeman and Ehrlichman-can't do that. And ah, of course that's why you can't go- the people that are, who have direct access to the President can't go right now.

COLSON: Well you know the difficulty with it Mr. President...Ah, I've been thinkin' about this over the weekend, I tried talkin' through with one of my ah perceptive law partners, who's a brillant, brillant trial lawyer and his point was...which I thought was a God damn good one, he said, you can't go at all. He says there's nothing in the facts of the Watergate, the Segretti, that you had any involvement in. At all. But they're gonna start asking you other questions, and and...

PRESIDENT NIXON: That you were involved in also.

COLSON: And, they're gonna com- well, something that I may not even be thinking about right now. But, ah...

PRESIDENT NIXON: In the campaign.

COLSON: In the campaign, sure. Or in the, in the pre-campaign period, and ah, things that have not a damn thing to do with Watergate, or Segretti but, but ah-

PRESIDENT NIXON: Well, their license ah, apparently, ah is to go on everything in the campaign.

COLSON: Yeah, that's right.

PRESIDENT NIXON: That's the problem.

COLSON: But why should one, wh- ya know, that, that's an area where y-you don- don't, you don't know where to draw the line. You can't be a little bit pregnant, and ah...

PRESIDENT NIXON: Well, we'll decide (unintelligible) cross that bridge till we get to it.

COLSON: No. I think you're right in terms of trying to limit those who have had direct access to you, because th-that creates a problem. And...

PRESIDENT NIXON: I'm sure absolutely.

COLSON: I would ah, ah...

PRESIDENT NIXON: But even there, I mean, based on the (unintelligible), I don't think you can (unintelligible) alone as a certainity at the Chapin and Strachan level, I don't think I would go that low.

COLSON: No, and I don't think you need to.

PRESIDENT NIXON: (unintelligible)

COLSON: Sure. That doesn't make any difference, let them do it. And let them take the whole damn committee apparatus. Ah, of course, the other point which I'm gonna mention to Haldeman before I take off is that if- whoever did...order Watergate...if it's gonna come out in the hearings, for God sakes, let it out now. At least get rid of it now. Take our losses.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Well, who the hell do you think did this? Mitchell? He can't do it, he'll perjure himself so he won't admit it. Now that's the problem. Magruder?

COLSON: Ah, I-I know Magruder does.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Well then he's perjured himself, hasn't he?

COLSON: Probably.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Alright. What'd you say then? Let's take our losses- who the hell's gonna step forward and say it? See my point? You've got it set-Liddy ah, Liddy of course is ah, he directed Watergate. But ah, who do you have in mind? I mean I'm afraid that can't risk it, Chuck, unless you have somebody in mind.

COLSON: No! I-I, w-well-

PRESIDENT NIXON: My advice, my advice - would you suggest Mitchell, go in and say why (unintelligible)...this must've occurred, I did not realize it at the time, but ah...

COLSON: Yeah.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Mitchell seems to have stonewalled it up to this point (unintelligible).

COLSON: Well, he's- ya know, John has got one of those marvelous ah, memories that..."I don't know. I don't remember what was said."

PRESIDENT NIXON: "I was busy at the time."

COLSON: Yeah.

PRESIDENT NIXON: He thinks it's not going to come out.

COLSON: I don't know.

PRESIDENT NIXON: That's his point.

COLSON: I haven't seen anything yet, related to this whole, incident that has not come out one way or another. And it's just that slow painful process of pulling it out piece by piece. Ah-

PRESIDENT NIXON: Of course I want you to believe me on this, Chuck, although it's just being repetitious...

COLSON: Oh hell!

PRESIDENT NIXON: When I'm thinking about Watergate, though, that's the whole point of the election, they went through this tremendous investigation for us. Unless one of the seven, begins to talk. That's the problem.

COLSON: But, you never know. You never know.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Well then the question is as far as the seven, that the only ones that really know, Hunt knows, I would imagine, I imagine Liddy would know. McCord?

COLSON: Probably.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Alright. Go for (unintelligible).

COLSON: Well, what my prospective partner, who knows Sirica very, very well and has tried many cases in front of Sirica, what he thinks Sirica will do, at the critical moment is, call in one of them and say, "O.K., you don't go to jail if you tell me everything you know. And ah..."

PRESIDENT NIXON: He'll give him immunity?

COLSON: Make a deal with them, before he sentences them.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Would they accept this?

COLSON: Would they accept it? (draw deep breath) I don't think Hunt would. Ah...

PRESIDENT NIXON: You don't?

COLSON: No. I really don't...I mean I think he's a...

PRESIDENT NIXON: Extremist?

COLSON: Yeah. He's too much of a believer. On the other hand, who knows, ya know. He's lost his wife which was a great source of strength to him. He's ah, got four kids.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Trouble in Hunt's case, which is that, he has contact with you, Ehrlichman, on other matters [a reference to the break-in at Daniel Ellsberg's psychiatrist, and the forging of cables where Kennedy ordered the killing of the president of South Vietnam, Ngo Dinh Diem].

COLSON: Sure.

PRESIDENT NIXON: That's the problem, you see?

COLSON: Sure. But it- but they're not matters that I'm really concerned about. Ah, so we went and interviewed someone on ITT, but that's per-perfectly logical as...That's what ya have a fellow like available for.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Yeah.

COLSON: But the, the, ya know, the whole, th-the, the unfortunate part of it is, and you-you're, it's imperative that people here not get bogged down in it.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Yes.

COLSON: The unfortunate part of it is, that it is a diversion. Ah, th-there's no limit to what they can do with it if they wanted-- and the reason you have to hard line it with certain people...

PRESIDENT NIXON: Mmmhmm.

COLSON: ...is that there is no limit to what they can do to it in terms of- well, hell, ya know, even arranging the Democrats for Nixon ads, ah, yeah, we had some technical violations of the statute. Ah, a few mailings that were done by ah, different committees outside of here. Yeah. Those were technical violations of the statute. Somebody (unintelligible) can't. But ya know, if you wanted to make them into capitol cases, you can.

PRESIDENT NIXON: (Unintelligible)

COLSON: Sure. Sure, but...

PRESIDENT NIXON: (Unintelligible)

COLSON: But the, certainly, but the problem is that they're, they're just gonna get the...if they could get Ehrlichman, Haldeman or me, to say under oath that we were aware of anything that was a violation of the statute, then they've got a circus on their hands.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Mmmhmm.

COLSON: And, ah, either you have to have a John Mitchell type memory or, (laughs) or not appear.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Your view would be to let Strachan go, let Chapin go.

COLSON: My view is all wrong, always has. But, but, but in the case of Haldeman, Ehrlichman and I, ah, the only three you can probably do this with, ah, that they should be either written interrogatories or appointive type things where they, they list out some highly specific areas. And that's it and not beyond that. And if they try to get beyond that, you just, you hard-you stonewall it or you, ah, (sighs) or you just don't remember something when you have to.