englanddg 'debating' politics

englanddg
Rural is falling?  Rural doesn't need cities.  Cities need rural.
|werejag| has changed mode: +o WorkTrout
Monfd
What?
|werejag|
citeis need cities are they dont get paid
|werejag|
they dont get welfare
Monfd
The economy, culture, and military are produced, largely, in cities.
|werejag|
they dont get clients
englanddg
Who feeds and clothes the cities?
englanddg
Cities do not grow their own food.
englanddg
Or make anything, really.
|werejag|
englandd2 who feeds them
|werejag|
by the money we spend they blow away
|werejag|
ask soy famrers how it is when no one buys soy
Monfd
Cities are fed by the areas surrounding cities that the cities control through their dominance of economies, militaries, and technological development.
Monfd
See, 4000BCE to present, with some interruptions.
|werejag|
rural is having less people
|werejag|
and lower
|werejag|
and lower
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englanddg
Monfd - Traditionally, yes.
|werejag|
its not a wining idea to be a rural party
Monfd
|werejag|: It is if you have an electoral college from the 18th century.
englanddg
werejag - Only if one seeks to be populist.
Monfd
|werejag|: By 2040, 2/3 of American will have 30 Senate seats.
|werejag|
popular votes have been dem for ages
englanddg
The electoral college merely gets you the president.  It doesn't hold the congress.
englanddg
Dems didn't get a blue wave, only took the house.
|werejag|
we had a massive blue waave
englanddg
Congressional elections ARE popular ones.
Monfd
Dems won the popular vote on Nov 2018 by an enormous margin.
englanddg
Were - Massive?
|werejag|
they kept sentate via germandering
|werejag|
and that is being fixed
|werejag|
slowly
|werejag|
but it well be
Monfd
The Great Compromise gets you 67% of Americans with 30% of the Senate seats.
|werejag|
youth is on side of dems
englanddg
I've said this before...the population of LA County alone is on par, if not larger, than some states.  You can't look at population results.
Monfd
Which then picks SCOTUS justices.
Monfd
Which then defends GOP gerrymandering.
Monfd
Which gets you the House.
Monfd
Which keeps the electoral college.
Monfd
Which gets you the president.
englanddg
If the Dems want to abolish the states, that is fine.  Be honest about it.  But, votes for federal offices, right now, are still segmented in that way.
|werejag|
englanddg genmandering is n=going to save the republican party
|werejag|
inst going to save
Monfd
A non-incumbent member of the GOP hasn't won the presidency since 1988.
Monfd
popular vote for the presidency*
|werejag|
dead party walking
englanddg
Monfd - The Federal GOP does not gerrymander.
|werejag|
o the fuck it isnt
englanddg
Gerrymandering is a state level concern.
Monfd
Gerrymandering is an American concern, as it prevents real democracy.
Monfd
The GOP, like the Democrats, is a private organization of citizens.
englanddg
It's an overused concern.
|werejag|
republicans have become teh party of the  rural people teh dwendling numbers
englanddg
Gerrymandering is more of a bitch and moan.
Monfd
This private group is preventing real democracy in the USA.
Monfd
englanddg: In some states the voter efficiency gap is 15%.
englanddg
As I said, if the idea is that everyone votes, you need to abolish the states.
Monfd
Your last claim is utterly false.
englanddg
Is that what you propose?
Monfd
englanddg: Multiple things are being proposed.
englanddg
Ok, inform me as to your proposals.
Monfd
You're doing some motte and bailey.
englanddg
Agreed,
englanddg
Clarify for me please.
Monfd
englanddg: The private organizations known as the GOP and Democrat Party must not be allowed to draw congressional districts.
englanddg
Neither of them do.
Monfd
They need to be drawn by independent citizen groups using an algorithmic process.
Monfd
englanddg: False.
englanddg
True.
Monfd
State legislatures currently draw congressional districts in the general case.
englanddg
Correct.
englanddg
State Legislatures are not "private organizations known as the GOP and Democrat Party"
Monfd
Project REDMAP launched by Karl Rove sought to control state legislatures before the 2010 census so the private organization GOP could redraw favorable districts.
englanddg
Ok.
Monfd
Districts must be drawn by algorithms.
englanddg
But, your statement that private organizations "draw the map" is completely false.
00:03 Monfd
Federal courts need to work with mathematicians do establish a valid range of procedures.
|werejag|
ummm
englanddg
What would be more accurate is "parties wish to influence the map", which is true of both sides.
|werejag|
it says it right there
Monfd
englanddg: The GOP gained the power of the state to leverage their factional goals.
Monfd
This is deeply anti-American.
Monfd
The goal of the republic, per Madison, is to be a meta-faction in which factions are allowed to exist but not get too powerful.
englanddg
Name one state that the GOP can't get elected out of office?
Monfd
Redrawing favorable, partisan congressional districts is an essential violation of this goal.
Monfd
englanddg: False standard.
Monfd
Notice you switched it to a binary, threshold test.
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englanddg
Yeah, was a really nice convo we had going.
Monfd
The correct test is something akin to 'voter efficiency gap'.
|werejag|
he is back
englanddg
Yep.
Monfd
englanddg: Are you aware of the status of gerrymandering in NC?
Monfd
The GOP is on record stating they redrew the lines to persistently win 10 of 13 seats.
Monfd
Why 10?
Monfd
They didn't think they could get away with 11 out of 13.
englanddg
NC?  No.  PA, I know about how the state court shot down what the GOP led Legislature wanted to do a few years back.
englanddg
I do know NC quite well though.
Monfd
I believe it is the most gerrymandered state in the republic.
englanddg
I mean, as in I've lived there, multiple places.
Monfd
It's virtually impossible for the citizens to get rid of this minority faction's rule.
|werejag|
we are trying to undo what repubs did
Monfd
In Michigan, I think the Democrats got about 60% of the votes, and about 40% of the seats.
Monfd
There are, currently, several states in which there is minority control of the legislature as a *direct* result of intentional, partisan gerrymandering.
Monfd
Some of these gerrymandering efforts have been described as "Jim Crow efforts by the GOP".
Monfd
By federal courts.
Monfd
In some cases, there are GOP documents indicating the GOP intended to stop people with black skin from voting.
Monfd
Mississippi, I believe.
00:09 englanddg
I too wear tin foil hats.
Monfd
The demographics of the country no longer allow the current GOP to be a competitive party, and so they're increasingly attacking our republican principles instead of adapting.
Monfd
Fallacy.
Monfd
Straw man.
Monfd
englanddg: Thank you for the conversation.
Monfd
I cannot possibly continue dialoguing with you at this time when you respond to a host of data and argumentation with "I too wear tin foil hats."
Monfd
I think your post represents a deep betrayal of conversational principles and a love of truth.