AAC3 R1A - Nerf vs TK Tad Judgement

####TK 1:

* Statpost. Mitori controls liquid metal at 100s of km range. Scouts with drones, cameras, and liquid metal dolls that sense heartbeats.

* Mitori is likely going to hunker down in a defensible location and avoid direct confrontation.

* Mitori has 30 dolls total.

* Can also cause metal needles to rain down on enemy

I would personally have noted how destructive the needles are---point out that the needles slice through an overpass and directly compare this to your opponents' durability.

* Anyone who isn't looking directly at Lu forgets about her. She has omega stealth and can disappear in front of people looking at her. Lu gets a free first hit.

* Lu throws needles accurately enough to disable tendons. Directly attacks opponents' lungs with vibrations, bypassing armour.

* Mitori hacks and subverts Vice City surveillance network. Uses luggage from the airport to disguise her dolls as people. Scavenges medicine from hospital which Lu can use to make poison.

* Team TK bunker down and stay hidden, misdirect opponents into following the dolls.

* Samus's scanners don't have showings for penetrating walls. Cae's senses are vague and unquantified.

* Lu's stealth is not based on manipulating light, it's magical presence concealment. X-ray/thermal cameras wouldn't work on it.

* Caerula relies on anticipating shooter's aim to block bullets - "Once the bullet is in your sight it's too late to act."

* Samus & Caerula have uncertain travel speed, searching the city for the enemy will take a long time.

* Mitori's dolls intercept rockets. Mitori herself dodges Meltdowner beam.

* Lu is fast "given the scaling mentioned in her respect thread to people dealing with supersonic stuff"

You don't get to vaguely gesture at your thread and say "yeah go look here she's fast" you need to post your feats.

* Metal dolls cut through pillars.  Caerula has no piercing res. A knight's sword cuts off pieces of Samus's armour and damages her.

* Lu's organ targeting technique is unresisted. Lu throws projectiles hard enough to break a person's arm when it strikes their shield.

I think this is a lot clumsier than focusing on the more objective component of this feat, namely that she's exerting "enough force to snap a tree trunk as thick around as her own waist."

####Nerf 1:

* Statpost. I already know what Samus does. Caerula is a precog who sees 100 moves ahead. Defeats someone 3x faster than her. Busts concrete. Embeds blades into stone & cuts cyborgs. Bigly regen. Bullet timer.

* Cae can track a room full of bullets, mice, thoughts of her opponents, all at once. Invisible opponents can't ambush her. Illusions can't fool her. Reads minds. Sees x-rays. Smells poison.

* Samus has array of scanners acknowledged by opponent. "Can obviously see through walls."

I'm not seeing it in any of these scans.

* Lu needs to have a temperature because otherwise it would mean she's at absolute zero.

* Round happening at night hinders TK's team, doesn't hurt Nerf's.

* Dolls have no real speed. Aren't intercepting the rockets, just being targeted. Rockets are cartoon bullet bills with no speed.

* Mitori is imprecise. Misses attack on stationary target and cuts backpack instead. "I actually don't think Mitori has any feats of landing an attack on anyone ever. Literally."

This is a really strong claim and I think disproving it will make or break the debate.

* Team nerf will avoid being detected by the obvious drones. Limits Mitori to locating her via dolls scouting on foot. Dolls are blind and have limited senses, can only detect things within 12m. Generally bad at scouting. Even the cameras on the dolls are mitigated by the fact it is night time and she can't check 30 cams at once.

* It is on TK to explain why Lu's invis is different from the types of invis team Nerf detect.

* Lu only stated invis to "naked eye"---implies a non-naked eye EG one using scanners could see her.

* Lu doesn't open fights with invis or exploit it well in fights.

* Lu doesn't seem to move while invisible. Could be technique of standing perfectly still.

* Only stated to apply to sight, not other senses.

* Memory erasure only applies to a person's identity, not that they actually exist. Lu is a stranger to Nerf's team so this doesn't make a difference.

* Mitori has no dura. Dies.

* Lu is limited to close range. Samus blows her up.

* Freeze ray counters the dolls T-1000 style.

* Samus is fast. Caerula using precog for speed doesn't matter here since she is able to use it on both opponents. 3x faster opponent can't tag her through precog and team TK are slower than that.

* Cae clearly moves her limbs at relevant speeds to bullets.

Yeah.

* Cae antifeats are contextualised by her being younger/weaker. More speed scaling.

* Mitori is slow, and TK admits she's slow.

* Mouse sensory feat is only a room. Won't help much for searching the map.

* Reiterates that TK team doesn't use the same kind of invis.

* Cae doesn't read minds she sees neuron activity. Would not assume the dolls were remote controlled blobs, would assume they were shielded (?)

* X ray vision is specifically her seeing blood vessels, not through walls. Poison sniffing is from short range. No evidence she could scan map for opponents

* Vision feat is bad interp. She just notices the ship leave after telling it to leave, not seeing specific details inside once it's far away.

* No feats for Samus seeing through walls.

Yeah.

* Lu's invis is hyper stealth, not bending light. Scanning for her in different wavelengths won't make her kung fu supressed presence any more noticeable.

* "Lu can make a medicine for night vision as mentioned in her rt."

Again. If you haven't posted the scan in the round, it doesn't exist. If posting lit feats is eating into your word limit you should consider hosting them on pastebin.

* Clarifying - Lu's presence hiding is a ninja martial arts trick, like Nerf characterised it as. Lu is able to move while using it.

* Concedes Lu does drop the invis when she does an attack, but argues by the time the cloak is dropped, it's too late to dodge. Does organ rupture punch within few cm.

* Organ rupture punch worked on engine of an armoured car.

* Lu makes people forget about her. Can't even order delivery because the store would forget she placed an order. Online delivery is similar state of being total strangers as this fight. Will work on Samus/Cae.

* Scene of bridge girl forgetting person as soon as he leaves. Doesn't even remember why her prize she was meant to give out is missing.

* Frenda's rockets are based on sci fi future explosives technology and so should be as fast as rl rpgs.

* If Frenda's rockets are slow, then Samus's are slow.

TRUE!

* Frenda's rockets cross 500m before a sniper can fire at her.

Anticipating the pretty easy argument that the sniper was still lining up the shot, or that they saw the rockets, turned, and ran instead of sticking around to pull the trigger and getting blown up for it.

* Mitori is only imprecise conditionally when puppeting a doll with a mass/shape that doesn't resemble her own body. The antifeats are her puppeting liquid metal blobs, not proper dolls. Rest are feats for her opponents dodging.

* Doll detection range is larger than argued.

* Lu can help look at the cameras. Mitori was controlling 30 at once which implies she's good at splitting focus.

* Something something mugino lightning timer

Sorry I just don't buy it. The scaling seems weak and there's nothing provided to tell us the projectile she dodges is as fast as natural lightning.

* Mitori's steel rain is very dangerous. Covers wide enough area that Samus/Cae would get caught by it even if they tried to dodge. Sharp enough to slice overpass.

####Nerf 2:

* The "just a room" downplay is fake the area is huge.

I can count at least 8 storeys. Checks out.

* Spatial awareness is only required for Cae's specific fighting style, not for her to read minds.

* The invisible opponent sensory feat is coming out of a conversation. Sensory awareness is a passive thing she has.

* Context on km vision feat.

I'm still not 100% on whether this actually shows her making out specific details about the ship. She looks out into space when she wonders if it's been enough time, but we get no indication of how much she's actually seeing of it or if she's just basing her assumption on the timing.

* Cae's ability is explicitly predictive. Martial art is about predicting cause and effect to manipulate opponents.

* The rain is slow and limited to its positioning. It has large gaps between the droplets that can be dodged between.

* Lu doesn't open with stealth, only uses it defensively. Doesn't move in the scene while vanished.

* Lu cannot press any wincon from beyond Nerf's range of detection so the memory erasure has little combat utility.

* People still receive messages from Lu, they just don't recognise who's sending it and forget about it later.

* The memory erasure is also due to the human mind suppressing extranormal creatures. Team TK comes from settings where weird stuff is normal.

* Lu has no speed. Mitori has bad speed.

* Mugino scaling takedown.

* Frenda's rockets act like fireworks. They're slow.

* Mitori can't deal with someone teleporting once per second.

* Reiterating speed. Samus's missile is fast because it has a sonic boom.

Ehhh…. I'm not that convinced but this hasn't been pressed hard.

* Team Nerf's dura outpaces Team TK's attack.

* Cae can interact with Alita without suffering damage and Alita uses much stronger vibration techniques than Lu.

* "My team wins because I have shown clear and conclusive evidence they do the things I say they do."

####Results:

Things I buy:

* The dolls and drones are able to search the area efficiently for Nerf's team better than Cae can search for TK's.
* The doll blades or steel rain would kill either of Nerf's team---if they landed.
* Frenda's dolls moved to intercept the rockets.
* Both Samus and Cae hugely outmuscle team TK and could probably oneshot them.
* Cae is the fastest person here. Her precog works as outlined.
* Cae's spatial awareness covers a respectable area based on the feat of sensing mice and gunmen on the rooftop. The km vision spaceship feat is shakier.
* Lu could incap Samus, but not Cae, with her vibrations.
* Lu's "forget me" effect works, but only when she's not being actively detected by enemy senses. There is probably a delay before they forget she exists completely based on the internet forum discussion.
* Lu's invisibility is meme kung fu stealth instead of light refraction. Cae's mind reading could probably see through it, but Samus would have a harder time.
* Lu can move while invisible, but does not open with it in character or exploit it to the extent TK claims.
* Lu cannot pierce Samus.

Things I don't buy:

* Frenda's rockets are not provably fast. (Neither are Samus's, but this was not particularly pressed)
* Mugino is not fast. The lightning timing isn't that.
* Mitori's dolls are not fast, and are bad at hitting targets.
* The steel rain is slow and has gaps that can be dodged.
* Samus's X-Ray/Thermal scanning has short range and no showings for penetrating building walls. Cae's X-Ray is specific to blood/circulatory systems.

**Nerf wins.**

If the Lu and the dolls were faster, or the steel rain was more practical to deploy, I think TK could have taken this. As it stands, despite having options that could feasibly oneshot the enemy team, and significantly better scouting potential, neither of TK's picks have substantially evidenced speed to do what they have to.

Cae is fast. Even accounting for precog, she moves her limbs at relative speeds to bullets travelling through the air. Samus is less fast. TK was absolutely correct in saying that Frenda's "missile" means as much as Samus's. I do not see a sonic boom. Likewise, Frenda's bullet bill looking things are probably more similar to a firework than an RPG and to 500m feat doesn't imply as much about their speed as TK would prefer.

That being said, Samus still has the ricochet bullet feat to suggest a reasonable capacity to track and shoot fast moving objects while Lu has absolutely nothing and Mitori only has very shaky scaling and the Frenda rockets.

I think while TK does a good job arguing that Lu's stealth isn't something Samus's frankly barebones scanners would cover, Cae's esoteric sensory abilities including the AOE spatial awareness and mind reading would be able to pierce it. Lu definitely moved towards the swimsuit girl during the period she was invisible, that's what the prose is suggesting to me anyway, but Nerf was correct to hammer home the disparity in how Lu actually uses it vs how TK presented her.

What this simply comes down to is the fact that Samus and Cae are simply too fast for Team TK to pull their schtick on before they themselves get blasted/frozen/punched/slashed apart.

The dolls buy time, but are sort of fodderised by their poor accuracy and low speed. Lu can at most take out an unaware Samus if she opens with the vibration attack immediately, but Cae could solo this on her own.

I think my biggest advice to TK is to switch to using pastebin for your literature feats. You will save yourself so much character space for more in depth arguments. The convenience will also save you from having to go "well it's in my rt" instead of posting a more compelling scan.

Beyond that, organising your responses for more coherent flow of ideas could help a lot too. Don't get caught up in your own gimmicks and neglect direct stat comparisons where they matter most.