4Gamer Interview

Deracine:

4Gamer: Thanks for talking to us today. First off, congratulations on receiving the Lifetime Achievment Award at the Golden Joystick Awards 2018.

Miyazaki: Thank you very much.

4G: Other notable people who have won this award include Ken Levine, Hideo Kojima, Satoru Iwata, Eiji Aonuma, and Sid Meyer. How does it feel to be included in this list of greats?

M: It's a great honour, but I'm also very surprised. To be completely honest, I can't really fathom what I've done to deserve being included in that list. It may be more correct to say that I'm mostly bewildered.
	However, it's no mistake that this award is all thanks to all my co-workers and all the players who enjoy and support our games.
	It has renewed my passion to create more interesting and more worthwhile games in the future, in order to repay everyone for their kindness.
	And personally speaking, I was very happy that the award was presented by none other than Steve Jackson and Ian Livingstone. Those two were the authors "Fighting Fantasy", of my favourite RPG gamebooks as a child.
	I wasn't told that they would be presenting the award, so I was acting like an excited child the whole time at the game awards (laughs)

4G: Yes, I saw the picture you took together on Twitter (laughs)
	We did another interview together 2 years ago, shortly after the release of Dark Souls 3. You told us that you had started work on new titles that would be fundamentally different than your previous works―― And this year, it seems that those titles has finally been revealed.

M: Yes.	We'd been planning these reveals since the beginning, so we apologize for the wait. Well Deracine is out now, but Sekiro is yet to be released, so that might be a bit premature.

4G: Let's begine with the already released Deracine. I wrote a play report on the ending of Deracine, but I have to say I really enjoyed it.

M: Thank you for saying so. Deracine was quite different from From Software's recent titles, so there were a lot of new challenges to overcome. So I'm happy to hear you enjoyed it.

4G: How did you feel about these challenges?

M: Well at the very least, I'm glad we made the game. There were a lot of new things we learned, and I feel that there were many players who enjoyed what we had set out to accomplish.
	Personally, I also enjoyed working on the game very much. Of course, there were also many things we need to reflect on, but we will use those lessons to improve in the future.

4G: Deracine was a very unique game. Could you tell us where it all originated from?

M: At first, we had no intention of making a VR game. But, I think around the 2016 Playstation Awards, when Bloodborne recieved the User's Choice award, I was talking to the SIE (Sony Interactive Entertainment) people and the topic of VR games came up.
	They asked me what kind of game I would make, if it had to be VR. That's when I tentatively came up with the idea for Deracine, and it seemed well recieved so... the rest is history.

4G:	That seems like a very accidental beginning (laughs).

M: You're not wrong (laughs). I told the SIE people that there would be different challenges, and that it would be a much smaller project than Dark Souls or Bloodborne, and also a very niche game. But they told me they didn't mind, to which I was very grateful.
	So we decided we wanted to get hands on experience working with VR, and that's how the project began.

4G: What was the idea you originally had for the game?

M:	I had a few chances to observe the development of several other VR titles at the time. I was really surprised at the realism of the worlds and characters, but also at the sense of 'disconnect', shall we say.
	You could certainly see the things in front of you, but you couldn't touch them, nor could they react to you. I felt it was somewhat strange and sorrowful, in a way.
	Well, but that's just the limit of VR technology currently. I was still very impressed, though. So that's when I got the idea to use that experience as a base, and to build upon it.

4G: Interesting! So you had the idea to use the technology's limitations themselves as a method of development. Had you already decided on using the "world frozen in time" idea since the beginning?

M: I'd wanted to apply those concepts I'd just talked about to the frozen time setting, and the invisible fairies, as a device to help with immersion. There were other avenues of approach, but the game prototype developed fairly quickly into the game you see today.
	As for the concept of Deracine itself, I'd wanted to build on those experiences I had with VR to sway the player's emotions―― So we picked a setting that would help with that goal.

4G:	All flattery aside, I really felt emotional playing the game. It was very frustrating to have to exclude spoilers in my play report, because there were a lot of things I wanted to talk about but couldn't.

M: I'm really happy to hear that. We created Deracine with the intent to leave a short, but lasting, impression. And it also took a lot of, how should I say... courage? For us to release the game, I mean.
	After all, it's not your typical "game" or "VR game", and not really what people expected us to create in recent years. But still, I'm very thankful to all my staff for working with me, and the SIE folks for supporting us.

4G:	I think a lot of the people who played it would say that you succeeded in your goal for Deracine. Many players like me were stunned at the scene where the music stops, for example. Were you happy to see that?

M: I think I'm more relieved than anything. I'm sure many developers feel this way, but I was pretty anxious at release. The world view, the characters, the story, and directing the player's emotions――
	These elements of Deracine's game design were uncharted territory for us, or rather, for me. Naturally, there were some thing I feel I could have improved on in the final product.
	All in all, it would've been hard to avoid being labeled a "niche" game, but I think there was more I could've done to make sure as many people as possible could have enjoyed it.

4G:	I'm sure you will have many more challenges like Deracine to face from now on.

M: Yes, and I play to actively seek them out. We learned a lot of valuable lessons, and I think a company that can take those lessons to heart will be able to freely create more interesting and worthwhile things.
	Creating the game was just enjoyable overall. And ideally, I'll be able to use Deracine as a framework to make even more strange and unorthodox games in the future (laughs).

4G: I look forward to seeing another adventure game from you.

M: Well we don't know if our next project will be an adventure game just yet, but I'm happy to hear you say that.

4G: I noticed there were several Bloodborne related easter eggs in the game while playing through Deracine. People are wondering if this could be a hint at a Bloodborne sequel...?

M: I really must apologize for all the speculation it caused, but those were simply our little jokes. Me, and many other staff members have a special place in our hearts for Bloodborne, but maybe we overdid it a little this time.
	That's got to be one of the things we need to reflect on.



	Sekiro:

4G:	Okay, next let's talk about Sekiro, which will be released in March.

M: Yes. We're looking towards the master upload (deadline) soon, and finishing up the final touches to the game.

4G: You're working together with Activision this time around. How did that come to be?

M: It's not really much of a story. From Software simply lacks the ability to market overseas, so we needed a partner we could work with to sell worldwide.
	This time around, Activision was kind enough to have the most interest in supporting Sekiro, so we decided to work with them. But I have to say I was also interested in seeing how Activision makes their games.

4G: From Software's recent titles seem to have been focused on the "dark fantasy" theme. Why did you decide to make Sekiro a Japanese-themed game?

M: Well we have created and published several Japanese-themed games in the past, so when we decided to work on a new title, it wasn't so unnatural that a Japanese-style game was one of our choices.
	As for the Japanese setting of the game, there were many new themes to incorporate, artistically and story-wise. The concept of a ninja in particular really fell in line with the type of game I had in mind, so that's what we decided to do.
	We made great efforts to include realistic body mapping to supplement the dynamic exploration and battles, as well as capture the realistic feeling of a ninja.

4G: Speaking of ninjas, From Software's previous Tenchu series comes to mind. Does Sekiro have any relation to those games?

M: There were certainly things from the Tenchu games that we used as references. In fact, a new Tenchu game was one of the ideas going around when we had just started.
	However, we gave up on that idea quickly. We had published Tenchu before, but we weren't the developers, so it would feel like we were simply copying them in a way.
	That's why we only used Tenchu as a reference for things like the grappling hook, but to create our own take on the adventure genre.

4G: I had the opportunity to play the Sekiro demo at certain events, and I have to say the grappling hook, ninja kills, and the difficulty of fighting enemies head on really reminded me of Tenchu.
	On the other hand, there were many things I could see were clearly distinct.

M: Yes, there are many things that set it apart from Tenchu. For example, the core of the gameplay in Sekiro is combat. The levels have also been designed to take advantage of stealth in certain cases, where full frontal assault is not feasible.

4G: Speaking of combat, many have the impression that Sekiro is a "Japanese Dark Souls". Is this not the case?

M: Yes. We wanted Sekiro's battles and weapons to be different from Dark Souls. The swordplay in Sekiro is first of all much more "violent" and fast paced. The main strategy is to cut down your opponent's posture and find an opening to strike.
	Another peculiarity of the game is the emphasis on different ways to tackle battles. Sekiro is designed for the player to make use of any and all tools at their disposal, and to seek out more should the need arise.

4G:	So it will be important to use different tactics depending on your enemies and environment?

M: That's right. It will be necessary to make use of the grappling hook, stealth, and ninja tools in order to overcome fights. Not simply charging into battle, nor the pure stealth approach.
	We encourage you to use your weapon, your environment―― Anything available to you to gain victory. That's what being a ninja in Sekiro is about.

4G:	What is the intent behind that?

M: Aside from just being an action game, we wanted players to look at walkthroughs and guides to prepare for battles. Fights will be difficult, but there will be different ways to overcome them, so even players who aren't as skilled in action games will be able to find a path to victory.
	We also took that into consideration when tweaking and designing levels. Of course, players will be able to play straightforward and fight their way through the game. It will be a challenge, but definitely possible.

4G: I got the feeling that levels were more complex this time around when playing the demo, using the map as cover, that sort of thing.

M: I think the difficulty in the demo is mainly a matter of practice. To repeat myself, Sekiro was designed to play differently than Dark Souls. I believe players will be able to enjoy the game more when it is released if they take their time to learn Sekiro's unique characteristics.



Sekiro as a single player game

4G: Speaking of using whatever's available, will there be item hunting or character growth in the game?

M: As you search for items and your character grows, the number of weapons and skills available to you will also increase. You will be able to explore freely, but character growth will take the form of "choices", so the gameplay will change depending on the weapons and skills you choose.
	But these choices are mainly centered around the ninja prosthetic.

4G:	Just how many uses will the ninja prosthetic have?

M: You can have 3 different attachments at any given time, but can switch between them in real time. Again, there will be ways to upgrade your prosthetic, such as throwing multiple shurikens or increasing their penetration.
	Eventually, you can even upgrade them to something "darker" (thicker?).

4G: So upgrades will mainly be for your ninja tools, and not your character?

M: The player character's fundamental abilities will change over time, but not in the form of levelling. As I've said, character growth will be focused on upgrading the ninja prosthetic and the acquisition of skills―― The so called "skill tree".

4G: It seems players will be able to specialize as a full combat fighter or the stealth route as they like. What about death penalties? Will you leave behind a bloodstain like the Souls series and have to go collect it?

M: We've reworked how death works in Sekiro. As seen from the gameplay, death is closely realted to the world and the story itself, and one of the reasons is the ability to "resurrect".
	At a cost, you will be able to revive on the spot―― Which lends itself to the whole ninja-esque death and dangerous combat. Adding this mechanic has allowed us overcome death as an obstacle of the gameplay's tempo.
	Resurrection forms one of the core themes in the world and story, and using one's death to trick opponents is also one of Sekiro's unique charactersistics.

4G: There are also many other things that surprise me when I compare the game to Dark Souls and Bloodborne. From Software's recent games seem to have more or less followed a similar format that Sekiro does not.
	Especially with regards to the dodge button, and how frequently you can use it. What was the intention behind that change?

M: It's the result of extensive playtesting and player feedback―― including players from overseas. Since the grappling aspect and swordplay make Sekiro a fairly unique game in that regard, we worked with Activision to fine tune the controls through as much playtesting as possible.
	However, you will be able to customize your own control scheme, so don't worry.

4G:	Another thing that I was surprised at was that you decided not to include any form of multiplayer, unlike your previous titles. Although Sekiro is a standalone game, it seems to have been taken in quite a different direction.

M: I understand. There were several reasons we decided not to incorporate multiplayer, but to put it shortly, we decided it would be best to focus our limited resources on making Sekiro as enjoyable an experience as possible.

4G: I have no doubt that it will be an enjoyable game. But I am surprised that Activision agreed to removing such a popular part of your games.

M: Well it was something that we had ultimately decided on together, so there wasn't much to disagree on. I don't want to cause any misunderstandings, though. Althought Deracine and Sekiro are both single player experiences, that does not mean we will not be working on multiplayer games in the future.


Sekiro as a more character driven game


4G: It's rather rare that From Software has gone with an established player character in Sekiro. I suppose that is a sign that Sekiro will be much more story-driven?

M: It's a bit hard to say, but... I wouldn't say the storytelling has changed all that dramatically from previous titles. A fixed story is not the core of this game. At the end of the day, gameplay is the most important thing to us.
	There will not be excessive dialogue, and many things will be up to the player to find or guess for themselves.

4G:	Then why did you decide to have a set protagonist?

M: Setting aside gameplay for the moment, it was simply easier for us to tell the story that way, and that it fit with the game as a whole.
	Our previous titles told their stories mainly through the environment and snippets of text. That's why they tended to be rather vague or difficult to comprehend.
	But with the focus in Sekiro being on a specific character, I think it makes the main story much easier to follow.

4G:	Did you compose the game scenario yourself?

M: No. I wrote the base plot, but everything after was my supervisors. More than half the actual text was written by other staff members. Since I tend to have a very specific writing style, I thought it would be nice to have a change of pace and get some fresh ideas.
	Honestly, I've come to realize that the way I write is often very hard to follow... But at the very least I think that the main storyline in Sekiro will be more clear-cut that past titles.

4G: That's quite an explanation (laughs)

M: I suppose so (laughs). I don't think there's objectively much to compare between Sekiro and our recent titles, so there's not much I can talk about.

4G: The story has been described as a tale of "a lonely lord and his servant", so I can only assume that it will revolve mostly around the young prince, is that right?

M: No. The image I have in mind is both lord and retainer being dual protagonists. Being the descendant of a special bloodline, the prince is bound by fate.
	On the other hand, the shinobi is a man bound to the prince only by duty, after having lost his only family: the man who raised him.
	Please think of Sekiro as a tale about suffering and growth, revolving around both lord and retainer.

4G: Why did you decide to set the game at the end of the Sengoku Era?

M: I think either the Edo period of the Sengoku period is the way to go, when it comes to Japanese ninjas. But I think Edo would have been too recent, The Sengoku period is more like the middle ages for us.
	I'm sorry to say the story is not historically based, however. We wanted to create a world that was old enough for mythical creatures to still exist, but not be strange for them to do so.
	And the reason we chose the end of the Sengoku period in particular was for the beauty of decay present during those final years.
	But the story of Sekiro is fantasy; all the characters are fictitious as well. There won't be any historical figures. You could call it our reconstruction of the Sengoku era.

4G: Since Sekiro is a new IP, can we get an idea of how big the game is?

M: I believe the map sizes, number of maps, and number of boss fights are largely the same as previous titles.

4G: When I think of "Miyazaki-style" maps, I picture a more horizontal level design. But with the introduction of the grappling hook, can we expect the maps to be more complex?

M: I don't know if I'd say they're more complex, so to speak, but there is definitely more three-dimensional movement associated with exploration and battle. There will be many avenues off the beaten path, and places where players will be surprised they can actually go.
	And since you can use the grappling hook freely in boss fights, I hope that creates a much more enjoyable and dynamic battle for players.

4G: I have great expectations. But switching topics now, there seem to be many "soulslike" games nowadays borrowing from Demon's Souls and Dark Souls. Have you played any of them?

M: Personally, I don't really like the term "soulslike", but I have gotten the chance to play many of them, yes. If we have similar approaches, I sometimes use them as reference―― So half the time I'm enjoying their games, but the other half I'm just doing research (laughs)

4G: Have you played Koei Tecmo's "Nioh"? I remember being surprised that From Software would also be announcing a Japanese-themed game.

M: Yes, of course I have played Nioh. Back when Nioh was announced, we had already started working on Sekiro, so I was quite surprised as well.
	"Nioh 2" and SIE's "Ghost of Tsushima" were also announced as this year's E3, so I'm often asked what I think of them too. But I'm happy that people are excited about Japanese-themed games, and that they include Sekiro in that list as well.



	From Software's two unannounced titles

4G:	Please tell us about what you have in development besides Sekiro. Back in our June 2016 interview, there was talk about some other projects you had under wraps.

M: 	Right. To speak briefly of them, Deracine and Sekiro were of course being worked on, and we have another 2 unannounced projects. "Dark Souls Remastered" and "Metal Wolf Chaos XD" were handled by other companies, so we don't count those among them.

4G: So in other words, you are currently developing 2 more unnanounced titles?

M: Yes. It isn't the right time to discuss their details now, but I will say that they are both very much "From Software" games. It make take a while longer, but once things have taken shape I will be sure to announce what we're working on.

4G: I can't wait. Regarding next year's titles, including Metal Wolf Chaos XD, it seems that From Software is releasing quite a few remasters. How much of a part did you play in the decision to remake these older titles?

M: We really consider it on a case-by-case basis. For Metal Wolf Chaos XD, for example, Devolver Digital approached us and said there was a big demand for a remake of their beloved game.
	From Software's own Masanori Takeuchi was a producer for the game, so I'm sure he also had a huge part in that decision.
	Back when I was only a gamer, Metal Wolf Chaos was like a dream game to me, and was quite venerated as well, so I look forward to hearing the feedback from our players.

4G:	There must be many past From Software games that people want to play again―― King's Field, for example.

M: As for King's Field, a lot of that relies on my predecessor Naotoshi Jin. Without his individual abilities, I think a remake would lack a lot of the charm that made the original so great.

4G:	I understand. Now, Sekiro will be releasing first next year, and I can't wait for the other 2 unannounced titles.

M: Yes. Please look forward to Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice, our new dynamic action title revolving around a shinobi and his solitary journey. There will be many challenges and hardships to overcome, and I hope everyone can enjoy it to the fullest.

4G: Thank you so much.