100pals astats

[1:14 AM] qetc: but here come dat devalue http://www.astats.nl/Forum/viewtopic.php?p=25437#p25437
[1:15 AM] Hikikomori: lol why does footrock get a mention?
[1:15 AM] Aliased: I forgot that hard mode in trails in the sky was an afterthought not in the original game :confused:
[1:15 AM] Aliased: don't play it
[1:16 AM] Aliased: it's miserable.
[1:16 AM] qetc: random 1 hour playtime with 75 achieves i guess
[1:16 AM] Aliased: restarting after 5 hours of actual play time because hard mode is hell
[1:16 AM] qetc: ah nvmthats points
[1:17 AM] qetc: oh wait thats chieves too lmao
[1:17 AM] Hikikomori: from the example he has ai war 100% roughly taking 110 hours and tome 100% taking 900 hours,   tome will be worth 11,800 total points at 100%,  ai war will be worth 9,220 points at 100%
[1:17 AM] apollo: heres myths post http://puu.sh/rMQXX/32baf12a78.png

[1:17 AM] Hikikomori: so 2k~ point difference for 800 hours of work
[1:18 AM] apollo: rip @Xeinok rank
[1:18 AM] Hikikomori: so it makes more sense to 100% ai war and abandon tome instead
[1:18 AM] Hikikomori: which will drive ai war down?
[1:19 AM] qetc: but then you have to play ai war :bbtcat:
[1:20 AM] Hikikomori: fun times
[1:20 AM] MisterXYZ: There's no way to make everyone happy, it really doesn't matter
[1:20 AM] DrPixel: I'd say AI War is more of a high skill game than tome, doesn't seem too unfair to me
[1:20 AM] Aliased: you could just play fun games instead...for fun...
[1:20 AM] Xeinok: l.o.l.
[1:20 AM] Aliased: and have fun?
[1:20 AM] DrPixel: woo fun games!
[1:20 AM] MisterXYZ: @Aliased Agreed
[1:21 AM] Aliased: instead of worrying about your imaginary internet-penis-girth points(edited)
[1:21 AM] Hikikomori: i don't care about points position,  i just prefer logical arguements which neither side seems to have
[1:21 AM] MisterXYZ: How about you just invalidate everyone's highest value game, how would people feel about that? :stuck_out_tongue:
[1:21 AM] MisterXYZ: Always necessary to finish a game worth more to have other high games count ^^
[1:21 AM] DrPixel: I need my internet penis girth points!
[1:22 AM] Hikikomori: so we're basically getting a number crunch and just removing a decimal like the Yen did
[1:22 AM] Xeinok: T_T
[1:22 AM] Hikikomori: @Xeinok  please tell me in your experience that the Yen crunch was a positive or negative thing for japan?
[1:22 AM] Hikikomori: lol its T_T all the way
[1:22 AM] MisterXYZ: At the end, it'll always come down to whoever has more games and more time to play
[1:23 AM] MisterXYZ: so not really a big deal
[1:23 AM] DrPixel: join the >50 club xeinok :heart:
[1:23 AM] Hikikomori: yeah, i'm only where i am because i was a pc only gamer since diablo 1 days, had valve games before steam,  and started 100%'ing when achieves first came out
[1:23 AM] Hikikomori: enough time for the grind,  incremental over the years
[1:24 AM] qetc: hes not gonna get devalued that bad
[1:24 AM] DrPixel: I know, it's a joke :S
[1:24 AM] MisterXYZ: I started caring about achievements in 2013, rank~350 atm
[1:24 AM] Aliased: I'm only here because...because...I'm not actually sure why I hang out here come to think of it...
[1:24 AM] MisterXYZ: not bad considering I don't play too many high value games
[1:24 AM] qetc: for memes
[1:24 AM] Aliased: I 100% a game the other day!  First one in months, so that's something.
[1:24 AM] MisterXYZ: and I even took most of this year off due to technical issues
[1:25 AM] DrPixel: the same game you've been playing for like a year :weebalert:
[1:25 AM] MisterXYZ: I probably just got to where I am simply because of game count
[1:25 AM] Aliased: true enough
[1:25 AM] Aliased: it took forever
[1:25 AM] Aliased: playing like an hour a day
[1:25 AM] Aliased: 2-3 days a week
[1:26 AM] Aliased: I'm a pro filthy casual :B1:
[1:26 AM] Hikikomori: 61,000 - 11,800 = 49,200 pts lost for tome 100%   if we assume no one else is affected at current leaderboard rank ( which theres definitely lots of people with tome in top 100)  he'll move from 8th to 26th place @Xeinok  T_T
[1:27 AM] Hikikomori: gonna be a fun week when this crunch hits
[1:27 AM] DrPixel: overmind will blast off to the moon
[1:27 AM] Xeinok: I'm one of two people with the ToME hundo lmao.....
[1:27 AM] DrPixel: overmind's the other guy, right?
[1:28 AM] Xeinok: that's 10k gone for nothing
[1:28 AM] Xeinok: and anoither 40k on top mmm
[1:28 AM] Xeinok: great
[1:28 AM] Hikikomori: the only thing that really doesn't add up for me, is the discrepency in time and actual playing of the game.  any game over 100 hours to 100% gets its legs swept out
[1:28 AM] Xeinok: and basing anything off of an astats user-voted "time to 100%" is so broken I don't even want to think about it
[1:29 AM] DrPixel: it is a little frightening
[1:29 AM] Xeinok: welcome the the new era of VNs and HOGs
[1:29 AM] DrPixel: I'm sure we're trustworthy, but.....those normies!? :weebalert:
[1:29 AM] qetc: dont worry though xei, stranger will lose a whole 2.8k on fallen earth
[1:29 AM] Hikikomori: @Xeinok  I have a full 2 page playlist of hogs
[1:30 AM] Aliased: Clearly this latest astats scandal is outrageous, you should all quit achievement hunting immediately and take up book reading instead
[1:30 AM] DrPixel: book reading, psssh, what a nerd!
[1:30 AM] Aliased: I'm at something like 80 books this year, get on my level newbs
[1:30 AM] Hikikomori: the mistake here is lowering the ceiling while not also lowering the basement.  1 is still the lowest value. so valuations are going to go insane when the "new meta" settles in.
[1:31 AM] MisterXYZ: book achievements :larrygrin:
[1:32 AM] MisterXYZ: I just think the whole time aspect makes no sense
[1:32 AM] MisterXYZ: because there are very few games that have accurate times
[1:32 AM] MisterXYZ: or would even be similar with multiple people
[1:32 AM] DrPixel: I got a TOME-related question oddly enough - is there a Halloween-esque cheevo like the pirate day one? If so, anyone know when that starts approximately?
[1:32 AM] Hikikomori: @MisterXYZ  you talkin about " A bonus of 2 points per hour when you have a game 100%, based on the AStats value (shown at games and validated by mods) 'Hours to 100%' instead of a plain 25%. With a maximum of 2500 points." ?   i'm having trouble understanding it as well
[1:32 AM] MisterXYZ: for example, what if I somehow managed to finish Devil Daggers in 1 hour?
[1:32 AM] MisterXYZ: Obviously 70 hours wouldn't feel accurate(edited)
[1:33 AM] Hikikomori: @MisterXYZ  sounds like you'll have to afk it till you hit the maximum ceiling of 2500 bonus
[1:33 AM] MisterXYZ: it's not based on actual gametime Hik
[1:33 AM] qetc: those chieves can literally start whenever
[1:33 AM] MisterXYZ: it's based on expected 100% time
[1:33 AM] qetc: but id assume given its october its a safe bet to idle now
[1:33 AM] Aliased: Serious contribution: and what about visual novels?  Most of those go down in astats as an hour or so to complete, but that's not the time to complete for anyone actually playing the game, just the cheev hunters who don't care and skip the whole thing.
[1:33 AM] Aliased: That doesn't make sense as the basis for those games values.
[1:33 AM] MisterXYZ: so if you take longer to finish a game than others expect, you gain nothing
[1:34 AM] Aliased: anyone actually playing those games probably spends like 4-8 hours in them
[1:34 AM] MisterXYZ: if you finish faster, you technically gain a small boost, but possibly not as much as you'd get for the 25% bonus
[1:34 AM] DrPixel: thanks qetc
[1:34 AM] MisterXYZ: just because you get the game done faster and can move on to something else
[1:34 AM] Hikikomori: so current variable is people who own the game vs play the game vs have specific achievement, and now there is a time variable added?
[1:34 AM] Aliased: I thought what I was reading was that the longer games get bonus points?  Not you get bonus points for going under the time?
[1:34 AM] qetc: ah just saw you were just asking if there was a halloween achieve?
[1:35 AM] qetc: yeah theres a pumpkin level
[1:35 AM] MisterXYZ: the time variable is just for the bonus points
[1:35 AM] DrPixel: is that the one called plumpkin or whatever?
[1:35 AM] qetc: yeah
[1:35 AM] MisterXYZ: but considering there are games that I finished in half or less of the expected 100% time and games that took me 2-3x longer, it makes no sense
[1:35 AM] MisterXYZ: it's just arbitrary based on people who actually suggest 100% times
[1:36 AM] Hikikomori: yeah bonus points right now are just 25% of total value @Aliased    the idea is to change it to bonus points are assigned as 2 points per hour of what the agreed upon by mods time to 100% variable is.
[1:36 AM] qetc: altho
[1:36 AM] Hikikomori: which ....great a subjective variable.
[1:36 AM] MisterXYZ: Honestly, I don't care much about points
[1:36 AM] qetc: time to idle universe sandbox for that 2.5k bonus :B1:
[1:36 AM] MisterXYZ: But I'd feel better about the way it is atm than that change
[1:36 AM] Hikikomori: basically points just got expontentially more complicated.
[1:37 AM] Aliased: So I do understand it right.  A lot of the small visual novels on steam take something like 4-8 hours to complete.
[1:37 AM] MisterXYZ: 100% time is arbitrary, don't give points based on that
[1:37 AM] Aliased: but get valued at 1 or less hours because you can technically hold spacebar and skip the game for the achievements.
[1:37 AM] Aliased: undervaluing those games.
[1:37 AM] qetc: and all the clickers would get some massive points with the hours unless he makes an exception for those
[1:37 AM] Aliased: right that too.
[1:38 AM] MisterXYZ: Those would probably be those 2500 point caps
[1:38 AM] Hikikomori: once you hit the cap, whats the point of completing it?
[1:38 AM] Aliased: that's still a lot of points for a low-effort hundo like adcap
[1:38 AM] MisterXYZ: the time bonus @Hikikomori
[1:39 AM] Hikikomori: ah
[1:39 AM] qetc: agc/achievement count swag
[1:39 AM] MisterXYZ: A clicker may take you 2000 hours to finish but be worth something like 2k points, the bonus would be worth more than the game points
[1:39 AM] MisterXYZ: which I also find incredibly stupid
[1:40 AM] Hikikomori: lol, you know i think that math works out *sigh
[1:40 AM] Hikikomori: i wonder what other games might be worth more on bonus
[1:40 AM] MisterXYZ: Clicker Heroes, worth 1034 points
[1:40 AM] MisterXYZ: 1602 hours for completion, +2500 bonus points
[1:41 AM] MisterXYZ: 1293 vs 3534
[1:41 AM] Hikikomori: 1250 hours to hit the point cap
[1:41 AM] Hikikomori: so tome players 100% won't even hit point cap
[1:41 AM] Hikikomori: i stopped playing adcap after i 100% so i'll need to start idling it just for bonus
[1:42 AM] Aliased: wow
[1:42 AM] Aliased: that's a thing now
[1:42 AM] Hikikomori: i'm at 540.3 hours
[1:42 AM] MisterXYZ: Again, that's not how the points work
[1:42 AM] MisterXYZ: It's the 100% time that's set on astats, not your actual time
[1:42 AM] MisterXYZ: if you took 540 hours but the 100% time on astats is 1000 hours, you get 2000 points
[1:43 AM] MisterXYZ: regardless of how long you actually take
[1:43 AM] MisterXYZ: That's why I don't like it
[1:43 AM] Hikikomori: oh... i guess i didn't think of it like that because that sounds worse than what i thought it was
[1:43 AM] MisterXYZ: arbitrary and subjective values should NEVER be part of an equation
[1:44 AM] Hikikomori: tome takes 900~hours of you need to sit here and play the game, can't really idle unless you hope to be online when a dev triggered event happens.
[1:44 AM] Hikikomori: garrys mod takes a year of playtime
[1:44 AM] Hikikomori: but you can idle that
[1:44 AM] Hikikomori: we know the time to 100% on universe sandbox and garrysmod will be high
[1:45 AM] Hikikomori: but that'll cap at 2500
[1:45 AM] qetc: Nah most of tome time is idling(edited)
[1:45 AM] Hikikomori: does garrys mod and universe jump in point value from that?
[1:46 AM] Hikikomori: uni sand is 150 points, and should have a cap of 2500
[1:46 AM] Hikikomori: for bonus
[1:46 AM] Hikikomori: garry is 532 with 2500 cap bonus
[1:47 AM] BOTZonBot: zaxarone is now playing Mega Man: Mega man 1!!! with ACHIEVEMENTS at https://www.twitch.tv/zaxarone
[1:47 AM] Hikikomori: well.. uni jumps to 17.6 repeating times its current value
[1:48 AM] qetc: Well shits not set in stone right
[1:48 AM] qetc: We can just tell him to reduce cap cause idle games
[1:48 AM] Hikikomori: he does want feedback on it
[1:49 AM] qetc: Yeah
[1:49 AM] qetc: @Mytharox
[1:53 AM] Xeinok: writing some thoughts up, I'll post here first
[1:59 AM] Hikikomori: oh forgot aura is playing dynasty warriors, wanted to see how that game was
[2:02 AM] MisterXYZ: Is there someone who actually takes notes on this stuff to pass along?
[2:03 AM] Hikikomori: make a post in the forum thread http://www.astats.nl/Forum/viewtopic.php?p=25437#p25437
[2:03 AM] MisterXYZ: meh, I'd rather just copy/paste everything we've said here and send it to him :stuck_out_tongue:
[2:05 AM] MisterXYZ: The only change I want is for removed 100%'s to count towards the highest 100% leaderboard
[2:06 AM] MisterXYZ: The only time that would be an issue is if someone was actually close to the total # of 100%'s on steam, and considering nobody is even close (maybe 20% at most), it's a bit annoying that people are ranked higher because I happened to play games that aren't available
[2:08 AM] MisterXYZ: I've suggested that a few times already but no change :meatytears: @Mytharox
[2:09 AM] Hikikomori: do you mean steamworks removed or  fully removed?
[2:10 AM] MisterXYZ: fully, not sure why a game I put time into should count less than any other when it's a pure total count
[2:10 AM] DrPixel: I agree
[2:10 AM] MisterXYZ: like, you have 6 for example, I have 9, and when I update astats it'll be more
[2:10 AM] DrPixel: that removed 100%s thing is dumb
[2:10 AM] MisterXYZ: well, I like the separate category, I just think they should be totaled together for the leaderboard
[2:11 AM] DrPixel: yeah, points-wise it makes sense
[2:11 AM] Hikikomori: the idea behind the leaderboard is equal opportunity.  people have the same achievements available to grind for to run up the leaderboard
[2:11 AM] MisterXYZ: I mean, if broken achievement games count, removed 100%'s is fair(edited)
[2:11 AM] ez4ence: why not 2 leaderboards? for the total 100% and the one that is now
[2:12 AM] MisterXYZ: So, because I have around 12 removed 100%'s and 0 100%'s with broken achievements while other people may have 2 removed and 30 with broken achievements, they should be higher ranked?
[2:12 AM] MisterXYZ: I don't play games with broken achievements so I'm already at a disadvantage for that category
[2:12 AM] MisterXYZ: plus I lost a few 100%'s with only broken achievements
[2:12 AM] MisterXYZ: at least 3-4
[2:12 AM] Hikikomori: I don't fully know the behind the scenes, but that sounds like an entire code rewrite
[2:13 AM] MisterXYZ: 123 Kick It :frowning:
[2:13 AM] Hikikomori: make a suggestion on the forums(edited)
[2:13 AM] MisterXYZ: I spoke to Myth directly, nothing came of it, maybe a forum post would help
[2:14 AM] MisterXYZ: but the issue is that people with little to no removed games would probably just complain, even though owning them gives no real advantage overall
[2:14 AM] Xeinok: http://i.imgur.com/mCJYthQ.png

[2:14 AM] Xeinok: lmao hereeeeeeeeeeeeeeee we go boys
[2:14 AM] Xeinok: round 923824823712
[2:14 AM] Xeinok: start
[2:15 AM] MisterXYZ: and also, that steamworks removed list is getting impossible to maintain nowadays
[2:15 AM] MisterXYZ: that's why I took a break from updates
[2:15 AM] Hikikomori: the idling part is incorrect, i had it backwards @Xeinok
[2:16 AM] MisterXYZ: things pop up and disappear on a daily basis, I can't even properly maintain the remgc list
[2:16 AM] Xeinok: aren't they getting rewarded for idle hours though?
[2:16 AM] Xeinok: 2per hour?
[2:16 AM] Hikikomori: basically mods will decide a new  "hours to 100% " ratio  ,   2 points per hour,  so if mods vote 100 hours, the bonus after 100% will be 200 pts
[2:16 AM] MisterXYZ: @Xeinok "Again, that's not how the points work
It's the 100% time that's set on astats, not your actual time
if you took 540 hours but the 100% time on astats is 1000 hours, you get 2000 points
regardless of how long you actually take
That's why I don't like it"
[2:16 AM] MisterXYZ: quoted from what I said a little while ago
[2:17 AM] Xeinok: yeah I get it but garry's mod will still take 1year
[2:17 AM] Xeinok: mod-voted
[2:17 AM] MisterXYZ: yep
[2:17 AM] MisterXYZ: but clickers and pretty much every other game becomes random
[2:17 AM] Xeinok: so zaccaria playtime taking tons of skill is now worth the same as... leaving your PC on for garry's mod
[2:18 AM] Hikikomori: I think finding the manpower to accurately set time to 100% is a huge bottleneck
[2:18 AM] Xeinok: massive
[2:18 AM] Xeinok: not mention highly subjective
[2:18 AM] Hikikomori: @Xeinok  they both will cap out at 2500 bonus points
[2:18 AM] Xeinok: p2w or not, etc. etc.
[2:18 AM] Hikikomori: anything over 1250 hours in ~playtime~ will cap at 2500(edited)
[2:18 AM] Hikikomori: err, time to 100% vote  set by mods, not playtime
[2:19 AM] Xeinok: so how much of a boost are tabletop sim/garry/uni sand getting?
[2:19 AM] Hikikomori: i posted it above
[2:19 AM] Xeinok: thousands?
[2:19 AM] Xeinok: that was correct still?
[2:19 AM] MisterXYZ: @Hikikomori can you link me to the list of removed games on astats?  Always have trouble finding it
[2:20 AM] Hikikomori: uni sand is getting x17.6 points from 150 to 2650,  barring any changes from people gaining achievements and lowering the value
[2:20 AM] Xeinok: jesus fuck
[2:20 AM] Hikikomori: @MisterXYZ  sure can its on the stats page http://astats.astats.nl/astats/Steam_Games.php?DisplayType=All&ShowRemovedFromStore=1
[2:20 AM] Xeinok: how about garry's and tabletop?
[2:20 AM] Hikikomori: I own legends of pegasus which i hope to make work some day lol, i got that pile from amazon for a buck,
[2:21 AM] Xeinok: near 20x as well?
[2:21 AM] MisterXYZ: Just to put this in perspective btw, when I started remgc there were about 200 games removed between 2009 and January 2014
[2:21 AM] MisterXYZ: now there are around 530 in 2.5 years
[2:21 AM] Hikikomori: garry was 532  and will be 3032  about 5x its value
[2:21 AM] MisterXYZ: by the end of 2017 I'm assuming the number will be close to 800
[2:21 AM] Hikikomori: @MisterXYZ  yeah astats only shows 299 removed, but i'm not sure all the incidentals like videos and whatnot and weird dlc stuff
[2:21 AM] MisterXYZ: it's becoming increasingly difficult to mark things as steamworks or tag them as removed when sources dry up
[2:22 AM] MisterXYZ: oh, I'm specifically talking about games
[2:22 AM] Hikikomori: ah, i think the stats page only shows games itself
[2:22 AM] MisterXYZ: I'm supposed to do the removed game updates but I haven't been able to for a while
[2:22 AM] MisterXYZ: figured I'd start
[2:22 AM] MisterXYZ: but I feel like my best option would be marking every removed game as removed
[2:22 AM] MisterXYZ: and changing them to steamworks as I find sources
[2:23 AM] MisterXYZ: most effective way so I can tag them all and then run them down one by one
[2:23 AM] MisterXYZ: excluding games I know of sources offhand of course
[2:23 AM] Hikikomori: @MisterXYZ  also past page 1 of that list it won't load removed games  it'll default to a list of all games
[2:23 AM] MisterXYZ: ok, so then that list is useless
[2:23 AM] Hikikomori: you'll have to add &Offset=X
[2:23 AM] Hikikomori: to the end of the url
[2:24 AM] MisterXYZ: how many are there per page?
[2:25 AM] Hikikomori: 162, 324, 486, 648   should be your offset variables
[2:25 AM] Hikikomori: for page 2 3 4 5
[2:25 AM] Hikikomori: they may or may not load
[2:25 AM] MisterXYZ: why such a strange value?
[2:25 AM] Hikikomori: 6 x 27
[2:25 AM] Hikikomori: grids
[2:26 AM] MisterXYZ: why not 5x20 or something?
[2:27 AM] MisterXYZ: also, that doesn't seem to work
[2:27 AM] Hikikomori: steamspy or steamdb give you any way to sort removed?
[2:28 AM] Hikikomori: add a # to the end of the url and try again?
[2:28 AM] Hikikomori: i'm not sure if it'll generate for non vip users
[2:28 AM] Hikikomori: i'd just make a post in the development forum
[2:29 AM] Xeinok: should I post my post?
[2:32 AM] Hikikomori: you do whatever you want to do, more feedback is welcome on the forums of any view
[2:32 AM] Xeinok: updated a little http://i.imgur.com/uOI7zZa.png

[2:32 AM] Xeinok: anything I'm way off on?
[2:33 AM] DrPixel: I'd say yes, it's a pretty good post - one question though, what do you mean by people who go for quick n' easy hundos will get a massive boost? If anything, I'd say the boost would be minimal
[2:33 AM] Hikikomori: idling is incorrect thats tied to a different vote to 100% thing which i don't even have details about
[2:34 AM] Xeinok: some secret mod-thing?
[2:34 AM] Hikikomori: its not a secret its #2 of mytharox's post
[2:34 AM] AuburnRDM: do you think tying bonus points to hundo time will skew the votes?
[2:34 AM] DrPixel: instead of a 25% boost for completion it'd be 2 points per estimated hour to 100%, which would be like, 2-6 points (for a 1-3 hour game)? instead of 25%, which may be upwards of 10-30 points, etc.
[2:34 AM] Xeinok: yeah he's saying it's based on hundo time
[2:34 AM] Xeinok: which was user-voted and mod validated?
[2:35 AM] Xeinok: didn't know a mod had to "validate" that vote
[2:35 AM] AuburnRDM: ah same
[2:35 AM] Xeinok: and yes this gives huge incentive to everyone to vote games as more hours
[2:35 AM] AuburnRDM: agreed
[2:36 AM] Hikikomori: @AuburnRDM  i can't think of an unbiased way to determine time to 100% by votes   except for @luchaos method which grabs first achievement and last achievement and extrapolates time vs playtime, but thats suspetible to monkey wrenching as well
[2:37 AM] Jaketwo: 'Yeah that's a hard one to figure out
[2:37 AM] AuburnRDM: idk i'd prefer the current system over the new one
[2:37 AM] AuburnRDM: i like incentivising the hundo
[2:37 AM] DrPixel: I do love luchaos' method, but yeah, it's possibly prone to error
[2:37 AM] Jaketwo: Games like Rocket League and CS:GO could potentially be massively inflated by people playing not for achievements
[2:37 AM] Jaketwo: depending on how it works
[2:37 AM] AuburnRDM: yeah
[2:37 AM] Hikikomori: i'd rather the error be an algorhythm than a human
[2:38 AM] DrPixel: exactly
[2:38 AM] DrPixel: fuck humans, we're all stupid
[2:38 AM] Jaketwo: Like, 150 of my hours in Rocket League were not for achievement hunting, so if it counts the recently added achievements as the end point, it's not really representative
[2:38 AM] Jaketwo: I don't know what a good solution would be though
[2:38 AM] Hikikomori: also dlc gets added, achieves get added theres a new end point
[2:39 AM] Hikikomori: which could be months away from original play
[2:39 AM] AuburnRDM: if anythign change the rule for 1 cheevo games
[2:39 AM] Hikikomori: but, thats something we can transparently see
[2:39 AM] AuburnRDM: and leave the rest as is
[2:39 AM] AuburnRDM: if you 100% tome, you deserve those points
[2:40 AM] AuburnRDM: that's a tall order
[2:40 AM] Xeinok: say exactly that on the forums @AuburnRDM lol
[2:40 AM] bitemeblinky: are they still trying to change things with completion extras?
[2:42 AM] Hikikomori: for me personally, you comeplete any game, you get it all, whethers it top, or everything in the top 10 or the bottom 10, just no one harps about the bottom 10 ,  i wouldn't even know what games are in the bottom 10
[2:43 AM] Hikikomori: @Xeinok  i need a small loan of a million dollars to pay to win piercing blow,  it is 19th most valuable achievements
[2:45 AM] DrPixel: fucking piercing blow
[2:45 AM] DrPixel: the grindiest achievements ever
[2:46 AM] Jaketwo: I do understand the compulsion to change the points though, there are certainly things that don't pass the common sense test
[2:46 AM] bitemeblinky: yeah but is there any way to really change things without breaking it even more?
[2:46 AM] Hikikomori: @DrPixel  i think the easy hundos getting a boost, is  when you compare it to the time it takes to 100% or just do achievements in games like champions online, since it will be capped at 10k,  all the achievements in that 22938 pt game will be squeezed,     so a 10 minute visual novel with 10 points 10 achievements at 1 pt each, will in comparison be "opportunity cost wise" faster and easier to get than a 30 minute dungeon in champs online that might be worth 10 pts or less
[2:47 AM] DrPixel: hmm, I suppose if you think about it that way
[2:47 AM] bitemeblinky: there will always be informed people who know how to take advantage of whatever system is in place
[2:47 AM] Hikikomori: its not so much the numerical value, but what we tie to that value
[2:48 AM] DrPixel: it demotivates people to hunt for high value games, I can see that
[2:48 AM] MisterXYZ: @Hikikomori Working on updating my group's thread before I move on to astats, I've never seen a game with this many sources, https://isthereanydeal.com/#/page:game/info?plain=farmmachineschampionshipsii0iiv
When the price is right, you will play all night.
[2:48 AM] Hikikomori: so you can say a dollar is worth  .7 of a euro , or .9 of a british pound,  (making up values not looking at a currency index)  but rather what can that currency buy,  is it 3 loafs of bread vs 2 loafs
[2:48 AM] MisterXYZ: Not even adding everything manually, adding the itad link and calling it for that crap
[2:49 AM] AuburnRDM: so if tome is worth 10k, are those epic cheevos nerfed hard then?
[2:49 AM] DrPixel: I love me some opportunity cost, took an econ class for the first time last year and I loved it :thumbsup:
[2:49 AM] Skay: @AuburnRDM no, all achievement values stay same it just doesnt go beyond 10k when you reach it
[2:49 AM] AuburnRDM: or are they still worth the same, just overall point capped
[2:49 AM] AuburnRDM: ah
[2:50 AM] DrPixel: not nerfed necessarily - instead, going to the cap as quickly as possible would be the ideal goal if you're just hunting points
[2:50 AM] AuburnRDM: payday 2 nerf!
[2:50 AM] Jaketwo: Yeah, I guess I wouldn't really need to bother with finishing it, coz I'm already over 10k in it
[2:50 AM] DrPixel: woo :smile:
[2:51 AM] AuburnRDM: yeah that'd kinda kill my motivation jake
[2:51 AM] Hikikomori: basically how we value a game by the amount of time it takes to get achievements is going to go lopsided and we're going to have to find a new natural rhythm, we've had X years of going, oh 1 pt achievement thats simple, and 10-20-60-100 etc values tied to, oh that'll probably take X minutes/hours
[2:52 AM] Hikikomori: gonna have to adapt to a new numbering system,  don't know if the color pallete for achievements will more accurately or less accurately portray their difficulty/rarity.
[2:53 AM] bitemeblinky: I would assume less accurately because for all high point games people will stop the games way before the hundo
[2:54 AM] AuburnRDM: tabletop sim 325 + 2000 points
[2:54 AM] AuburnRDM: lol
[2:54 AM] Jaketwo: Heyyy
[2:55 AM] Hikikomori: I guess the best way to visualize this is a curve of  time vs point value,  and the more time you spend on a game the less value you will get out of a game,  until you get 100% which is when the bonus is going to rocket you on the graph,    so you could half play a lot of games,  or fully complete a few games  and reach the same number, although bonuses right now seem to be way more valuable than just half playing games.
[2:55 AM] Jaketwo: that's pretty good
[2:55 AM] Jaketwo: Since I've done tabletop sim lol
[2:55 AM] bitemeblinky: I like the bonuses though because I actually feel motivated to finish games
[2:55 AM] AuburnRDM: agreed
[2:55 AM] AuburnRDM: 25% extra feels nice
[2:56 AM] BOTZonBot: thiscatisalandmine is now playing Starbound: Space Explorers! Co-op with | NommyNomm !multi at https://www.twitch.tv/thiscatisalandmine
[2:57 AM] Jaketwo: I imagine the Dark Souls games would probably get a boost in value, which is an example of where the time to hundo thing that was mentioned makes sense
[2:58 AM] Jaketwo: In an ideal world, Dark Souls 2 SOTFS would be worth more than 162
[2:58 AM] Hikikomori: basically all of the middle games are going to explode in value from bonus, all of the small games will be more valuable when you think about them in terms of opportunity cost/time spent.  and all of the high up games that take 500-1000 hours and skill and planning (trying to get an actual guns of icarus farm happening)   will be crunched to be smaller.
[2:59 AM] Hikikomori: you will definitely be more inclined to 100% middle-ish games @bitemeblinky   but stuff like fallen earth, gotham city imposters, won't be worth starting.
[3:00 AM] Hikikomori: i wish there were some models for a percentage based decrease across the board for reference  thats gotta have an entirely different outcome than a pure number cap.
[3:00 AM] AuburnRDM: what about games with no 100% estimate lol
[3:00 AM] AuburnRDM: for some reason, hyper light has none
[3:01 AM] AuburnRDM: gonna lose points on jotun :frowning: and that's one of my hardest hundos
[3:01 AM] Hikikomori: we're all losing points is basically whats going to happen
[3:01 AM] Hikikomori: just some will lose more than others
[3:01 AM] bitemeblinky: is this actually happening now??
[3:02 AM] Hikikomori: no, its still a thread topic for discussion @bitemeblinky
[3:02 AM] bitemeblinky: it has been up for discussion for so long it really seems like it is long past the time to change things to me
[3:02 AM] Hikikomori: http://www.astats.nl/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2407&start=130#p25437
[3:03 AM] Hikikomori: we're just more active talking about it because myth posted today
[3:04 AM] Jaketwo: Time to 100% can be created from 1 vote, right?
[3:05 AM] Hikikomori: I don't know, but i'd assume so
[3:05 AM] AuburnRDM: yes
[3:05 AM] AuburnRDM: 99% sure
[3:05 AM] Jaketwo: Ok, I wouldn't want to miss out on my sweet bonus points for grinding STARWHAL
[3:05 AM] Jaketwo: as the only person on Astats who has done it
[3:05 AM] Xeinok: honestly, if you guys feel like it should NOT change please also post that on the forum thread
[3:06 AM] AuburnRDM: xeinok, you should knock this game out if you have it http://astats.astats.nl/astats/Steam_Game_Info.php?Tab=2&AppID=428410&SteamID64=76561198036117725
[3:06 AM] Xeinok: your choice doesn't have to be option a b or c - it can also be " D. don't change it yo"
[3:07 AM] Xeinok: wishlisted
[3:07 AM] AuburnRDM: it was pretty fun
[3:08 AM] Hikikomori: oooo i own that game, thanks @AuburnRDM
[3:08 AM] AuburnRDM: yeah, check it out! i saw the hundo list was pretty short
[3:08 AM] Hikikomori: https://www.indiegala.com/spooktacular i wanna buy this bundle just for the pet games lol
The Indie Gala - Set your price. Donate. Play!
Grab the best selection of Steam games and discounts for PC, Mac, and Linux from the IndieGala Store. New offers constantly being added.
[3:08 AM] AuburnRDM: i love that they're in the spooky game bundle(edited)
[3:09 AM] Hikikomori: @AuburnRDM  the lady in pet school definitely looks like she's got murder eyes
[3:09 AM] AuburnRDM: haha
[3:09 AM] AuburnRDM: i'll grab it on happy hour for sure
[3:10 AM] Jaketwo: Yeah I bought that bundle lol
[3:10 AM] Jaketwo: I felt compelled to do it, because those pet games aren't on the Steam store in Australia
[3:10 AM] AuburnRDM: yeah, that's worth it
[3:10 AM] Jaketwo: that probably doesn't make any logical sense, but it did at the time
[3:11 AM] bitemeblinky: I just wish more of those shovelware games had cheevos
[3:13 AM] Jaketwo: That Thumper game that came out recently looks pretty dope. Rhythm games always have assholish achievements though lol
[3:13 AM] Hikikomori: @bitemeblinky  i literally email that russian company weekly  to add achievements to their shovelware and they have started to do it
[3:14 AM] bitemeblinky: lol perfect
[3:14 AM] Jaketwo: I don't know how possible getting an S rank on every level is
[3:14 AM] Hikikomori: http://store.steampowered.com/search/?publisher=Buka%20Entertainment @bitemeblinky
[3:16 AM] DrFestus: Omg @Hikikomori looking at that and I have to get
http://store.steampowered.com/app/296220
Farm Frenzy 4
The Farm Frenzy series of casual sims gets a makeover in this sequel. Choose and dress your character, and then get busy saving the family farm! Virtual farming has never been more fun, so grab yer overalls, roll up yer sleeves and get ready for an egg-crackin', cow-milking, sheep-shearin' good time!

[3:16 AM] MisterXYZ: @Hikikomori Quick question, is a game still marked as removed steamworks if the only legitimate available source is region locked to certain areas?(edited)
[3:16 AM] MisterXYZ: Or at that point would it be considered just removed
[3:17 AM] Hikikomori: i believe so since we don't suggest VPN  and gifts are no longer tradable through regions
[3:17 AM] Rhy: I just wish 100%ing removed games counted towards your 100% count
[3:17 AM] Hikikomori: steamworks is used to mark if the game is available as a physical key either through digital stores are a physical product
[3:17 AM] Rhy: same with 100%ing games that have all their achievements marked broken
[3:17 AM] MisterXYZ: We had that conversation already Rhy :stuck_out_tongue:
[3:17 AM] Hikikomori: having it marked steamworks means that it will still count for points
[3:18 AM] Hikikomori: removed means  that it won't count at all
[3:18 AM] Hikikomori: on the main leaderboard
[3:18 AM] MisterXYZ: I was asking because a few games I'm looking at have one source
[3:18 AM] MisterXYZ: and they're locked to NA
[3:18 AM] Rhy: but I don't get why they don't count
[3:18 AM] Rhy: I still earned those achievements
[3:18 AM] Hikikomori: thats not the point
[3:18 AM] Hikikomori: but i'll give you a different way to look at it from
[3:19 AM] MisterXYZ: "meh, I'd rather just copy/paste everything we've said here and send it to him :stuck_out_tongue:
The only change I want is for removed 100%'s to count towards the highest 100% leaderboard
The only time that would be an issue is if someone was actually close to the total # of 100%'s on steam, and considering nobody is even close (maybe 20% at most), it's a bit annoying that people are ranked higher because I happened to play games that aren't available
I've suggested that a few times already but no change"

"So, because I have around 12 removed 100%'s and 0 100%'s with broken achievements while other people may have 2 removed and 30 with broken achievements, they should be higher ranked?
I don't play games with broken achievements so I'm already at a disadvantage for that category
plus I lost a few 100%'s with only broken achievements
at least 3-4"
[3:19 AM] MisterXYZ: That's what I wrote earlier @Rhy
[3:19 AM] Skay: removed games wont count
[3:20 AM] MisterXYZ: @Skay I didn't say for points (though I would like that as well).  I was just talking about the leaderboard for 100% total
[3:21 AM] Hikikomori: someone completely new to achievements,  has just as much opporunity to rise the leaderboards as someone who's been here for years,  so its an equal playing field,      yes, they have to spend time and money to farm  but its still possible for them to make significant work.        if removed games count, then that new player is immediately locked out  it is a literal impossibility for them to gain over players with removeds.

now i can see the point for instead, having a seperate leaderboard that only counts removed's as a fun seperate metric,  making that a reality from what I understand would take a lot of work but its worth making a thread on the forums if you're interested in making one.
[3:22 AM] Rhy: if there were only 50 achievement games, then that's a valid point
[3:22 AM] Rhy: but there's what, over 2k achievement games?
[3:22 AM] Rhy: not counting ~15 of them is insignificant
[3:23 AM] Skay: exactly
[3:23 AM] MisterXYZ: There are around 5k achievement games atm
[3:23 AM] Hikikomori: as @Skay said in brief, i'll expand upon it,   having removeds count might be impossible with current coding, but fundimentally goes against the nature of why the leaderboard was created in the first place, there is a lot of work put into curating what gets removed/broken/fixed/reinstated to the store
[3:23 AM] MisterXYZ: maybe 4k would be a better estimate, actually
[3:24 AM] Hikikomori: yes but lets say a new account buys and plays every game you own  to an exact duplicate, they will not be able to get those removeds, so its about the total specific unique achievements available.
[3:24 AM] Rhy: that's such a rediculous hypothetical
[3:24 AM] MisterXYZ: I said the same thing, Rhy
[3:25 AM] MisterXYZ: The closest anyone on steam has come to the total achievement game total is maybe 20% at best
[3:25 AM] Hikikomori: If you played in a football league and in the football league  one  division was allowed to play an extra half and earn more stats per player, that would inflate all the players compared to the other teams in the division that played only 2 halfs.(edited)
[3:25 AM] Rhy: not relevant
[3:25 AM] Hikikomori: very relevant i'm just trying to use real world examples instead of the mathmatical terms for it.
[3:26 AM] Hikikomori: please be respectful
[3:26 AM] MisterXYZ: Honestly, I'd say that analogy is a bit off
[3:27 AM] AuburnRDM: wait are the ToM 4 achievements new?
[3:27 AM] Hikikomori: no they've been around since 2012?
[3:27 AM] Hikikomori: or am i thinking of 2014
[3:27 AM] AuburnRDM: oh ok
[3:27 AM] Rhy: the scale is different.  this is like 20-30 games out of ~4k
[3:27 AM] AuburnRDM: ah ToM5 doesn't yet
[3:28 AM] MisterXYZ: well, I'd say more like 100/4k
[3:28 AM] Rhy: that's 0.025% of achievement games
[3:29 AM] MisterXYZ: but still, if no new games with achievements were released from this point on, and with the current rate of removal, it'd still take maybe 10-20 years before it becomes relevant
[3:29 AM] Hikikomori: yes but its not about whether a game is worth a lot of points or not, its about the entire pool,  player x is playing with a total pool of lets say 100,000 achievements available to him.  he can earn all those achievements given enough time and skill

now player y  has 100,001 achievements because he has a removed game with 1 achievement.  same opportunity to gain the achievements.

who has the advantage when all things are equal?
[3:30 AM] AuburnRDM: player y can buy the game on SG for 100 tf2 keys :kappa~1:
[3:30 AM] Rhy: again that's a rediculous hypothetical given the scale
[3:30 AM] MisterXYZ: There are too many variables to make it that black and white
[3:30 AM] Skay: i have a proposal
[3:30 AM] Hikikomori: its the foundation of the kfactor in elo rating, but ok i just can't sway you.
[3:30 AM] MisterXYZ: First of all, no two people will have the same exact games
[3:30 AM] MisterXYZ: and it goes both ways, the new person can also end up with removed games that the veteran doesn't own
[3:31 AM] Hikikomori: its not about the amount of games xyz, again, this is about total pool of available unique achievements
[3:31 AM] MisterXYZ: plus broken achievements and such
[3:31 AM] Skay: broken achievements also dont count
[3:31 AM] Skay: speaking of that
[3:31 AM] MisterXYZ: I know they don't
[3:31 AM] Skay: what if you have "+<number>" next to your total 100%s like with broken achievments
[3:32 AM] Hikikomori: the whole reason we mark brokens even if they were working previously is because of the fundimentals of a fair and level playing field.
[3:32 AM] MisterXYZ: My earlier point from a few hours ago is that someone who doesn't play games with broken achievements, like myself, is at a disadvantage for a different reason
[3:32 AM] MisterXYZ: someone may play a game that takes 1 hour with 15/20 broken achievements
[3:32 AM] MisterXYZ: and get a +1 100%
[3:32 AM] MisterXYZ: but for equal or more work on a removed game, I wouldn't get credit
[3:33 AM] MisterXYZ: even though the game that person played wouldn't be available to me
[3:33 AM] Skay: you are at the same available achievement pool again
[3:33 AM] Hikikomori: you've made a concious decision not to play a game,    you weren't physically (or i gets temporally since this kind of is time travel) unable to own the game.(edited)
[3:33 AM] Skay: like hiki said many times
[3:33 AM] MisterXYZ: Ok, I have a gift of Rhythm Zone, a new player could buy that from me and 100% it
[3:33 AM] MisterXYZ: it's an option that he has
[3:33 AM] Xeinok: astats forum http://i.imgur.com/8xJk4gO.png

[3:34 AM] Hikikomori: down for me as well
[3:34 AM] MisterXYZ: there are always available choices and there are so many variables involved that the counter aruments won't be valid for decades
[3:34 AM] Skay: Myth said he will do some work today so maybe he is doing something now
[3:34 AM] Rhy: Hiki, I get what you're trying to say, but we'll disagree on the size of the pool.  Not counting perfects is  disengenuous to those who've done them
[3:34 AM] Skay: its equal for everyone
[3:35 AM] MisterXYZ: Not when you consider time input
[3:35 AM] MisterXYZ: What about a game with 100 achievements, takes 300 hours to finish, you get the 100%
[3:35 AM] MisterXYZ: then, 99 achievements break, 1 achievement left, takes 3 minutes
[3:35 AM] Hikikomori: I think you have a way better position in creating a secondary leaderboard to count 100% including removeds
[3:35 AM] Hikikomori: even though both options require an enourmous amount of work
[3:35 AM] MisterXYZ: why should both people get the 100% +1 for something like that when the time and effort aren't even close for the same game
[3:36 AM] Skay: in this situation both people get +1
[3:36 AM] Hikikomori: time input and point value is not what I was talking about,  again the available pool of unique achievements
[3:36 AM] Hikikomori: we'll all judged equally by the same games and achievements
[3:36 AM] Skay: ^
[3:37 AM] Rhy: I'm also talking about games that have all achievements marked broken.  For example, the mod Dystopia took me a few hours to do, I wrote a detailed guide for it...then it got broken, so now my achievement means nothing
[3:37 AM] Hikikomori: same reason why as point values increase and decrease on the leaderboard for specific games/achievements,  they  change equally across all players
[3:38 AM] MisterXYZ: The hit taken is always worse for existing players than new players though
[3:38 AM] Rhy: not even counted as a removed 100%
[3:38 AM] Hikikomori: yeah i loved dystopia i farmed it to 100% too, and now its broken and doesn't count on the main leaderboard, but for me,  i just chalk it up to eh, can't have everything be perfect and I play another game.
[3:39 AM] Hikikomori: thats more just clarity, it isn't a removed game, its a broken game
[3:39 AM] Hikikomori: no reason to change a game with an incorrect modifier because of bias
[3:39 AM] Rhy: so the time and effort a player puts in means nothing?
[3:39 AM] Rhy: just because it's "out of the pool"?
[3:40 AM] Hikikomori: I did just note all the time and effort i put in the game
[3:40 AM] Skay: it means whatever it means to you
[3:40 AM] Hikikomori: ^
[3:40 AM] Skay: but it wont count on the leaderboard
[3:40 AM] MisterXYZ: I just think that so much time is going into reconsidering the point system to accommodate games with a lot of achievements and high point values when there's another valid branch that's being ignored
[3:40 AM] Hikikomori: games will come and go, the leaderboard will change,  what will not change  is that every player is treated fairly and equally when being compared to each other numerically
[3:40 AM] MisterXYZ: There are maybe 10 games that the point argument is really over
[3:41 AM] MisterXYZ: yet there are maybe 100 or so removed achievement games that are just ignored for the sake of fairness
[3:42 AM] Hikikomori: I think you have a way better position in creating a secondary leaderboard to count 100% including removeds
even though both options require an enourmous amount of work
[3:42 AM] Peter Lustig: are you seriously arguing over virtual points? okay, guess thats what i woke up to
[3:42 AM] Skay: yes because its competetive
[3:42 AM] Hikikomori: hey @Peter Lustig  no arguements from me here, just playing some terrible anime games
[3:43 AM] Peter Lustig: good on you @Hikikomori , keep it up :smile:
[3:43 AM] Hikikomori: i'm pretty sure this star  game is about me being a pimp and i also play as a prostitute
[3:43 AM] Skay: removed games are clearly displayed on your profile when you 100% them, leaderboard is there to have same exact number of games and achievements available to every single person participating
[3:43 AM] Skay: i really have hard time finding reason   to change it
[3:44 AM] Skay: im really trying
[3:44 AM] Jaketwo: To be fair, cheevo chat would have to be one of the most appropriate places to argue about virtual points, if one were to do so
[3:44 AM] Peter Lustig: true
[3:44 AM] Peter Lustig: :wink:
[3:44 AM] Hikikomori: this is now @Weebs  chat,  only post waifus
[3:44 AM] Skay: :weebalert:
[3:45 AM] Peter Lustig: tbh, if you really want to get the points, you only have 2 viable options to game the system anyway
[3:45 AM] Hikikomori: cheating, or playing ?
[3:45 AM] MisterXYZ: @Skay I'm just looking at the opposite of Hik's argument, honestly
[3:46 AM] MisterXYZ: if two people 100% the same 50 games and one has 10 additional removed 100%'s, why are they the same rank, that's all :stuck_out_tongue:(edited)
[3:46 AM] Peter Lustig: going for a lot of easy games to get as many 100% bonuses as you can, or completing games with over proportionally many cheevos to get big completion bonuses
[3:46 AM] Rhy: we're not talking about big point games
[3:47 AM] Peter Lustig: are those removed games such a big deal, tho?
[3:47 AM] Rhy: not in the grand scheme
[3:47 AM] bitemeblinky: looks like we may have a few more removed games soon http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2016/10/17/united-front-games-closes.aspx
Game Informer
United Front Games Closes Its Doors
The Sleeping Dogs developer was founded in 2007.

[3:47 AM] Peter Lustig: there aren't that many anyway, aren't there?
[3:48 AM] Rhy: maybe 100, out of maybe 4k achievement games
[3:48 AM] Skay: dang now i want smash and grab key
[3:49 AM] bitemeblinky: I just wanted a sleeping dogs sequel
[3:49 AM] Rhy: Hiki's argument is to keep the pool the same for everyone, so removed games shouldn't count on the board.  My and xyz's argument is that the pool is so big that allowing them to count isn't impactful
[3:49 AM] MisterXYZ: If you count removed+disabled @Peter Lustig there are about 550 removed games, maybe 100 with achievements, give or take
[3:50 AM] MisterXYZ: http://timekillerz.eu/removed/games.php
[3:51 AM] Hikikomori: more so its not about whether its impactful, its that if you told a new player, theres 100 games that you not be able to get and that will put you at a disadvantage not only when you start but also years down the road,  thats not a very inspiring speech.