[08/20/2017]
16:20 [Aexo#1349]: I'm not gonna drag it out into guild chat, and if you want me to say sorry then I'm sorry, but I still stand by my argument
16:23 [Felvystra]: Nothing wrong with demanding perfection
16:24 [Aexo#1349]: Yeah I guess it's pretty easy to misconstrue my point to be smug about it but at the end of the day you made the argument personal for me and I defended it because it is close to me and how I strive to play
16:24 [Felvystra]: It's not personal, never was
16:25 [Aexo#1349]: The way you presented it didn't really send that message
16:25 [Aexo#1349]: I told you halfway through that it was upsetting me
16:25 [Felvystra]: It's hard for me to reply when I get talked over
16:26 [Aexo#1349]: You were arguing with 3 people at once in a voice chat
16:26 [Felvystra]: You did it specifically
16:26 [Aexo#1349]: this isn't a moderated debate it's friends arguing
16:26 [Felvystra]: I'll be talking, and you'll just interrupt
16:26 [Aexo#1349]: I talk over everyone
16:26 [Felvystra]: And whatever I have to say doesn't matter
16:27 [Aexo#1349]: Did I say that?
16:27 [Felvystra]: It's implied when I try to say something and I never get to
16:28 [Aexo#1349]: You left discord, but you've had plenty of time to talk and I don't think it's fair to really imply that I alone have stopped you from talking
16:28 [Felvystra]: I left because I was in tears
16:28 [Aexo#1349]: I can admit that I interrupt, not you alone but everyone because I get passionite about this stuff
16:28 [Felvystra]: And I didn't want to cry on discord
16:28 [Aexo#1349]: but I also point out this isn't a moderated debate and we are all trying to give our points
16:29 [Felvystra]: I usually don't have discussions to cry
16:30 [Aexo#1349]: you turned it into a personal argument and I got invested in it, and I did my best to argue my position
16:31 [Aexo#1349]: you did your best to keep the discussion going and escalate the argument
16:31 [Felvystra]: you're right. It's probably all my fault
16:31 [Aexo#1349]: did I say that?
16:32 [Felvystra]: I said probably  bc nobody established it
16:32 [Felvystra]: But it's okay I'll acept the fault anyway
16:33 [Aexo#1349]: I don't know what you want me to say, I'm sorry I talked over you, and I didn't do it because I don't like or respect you but because I got wrapped up in the debate and wanted to win it
16:33 [Aexo#1349]: It's not personal it's a debate over a philosophy of playing a video game and the goals we pursue in it
16:34 [Aexo#1349]: I get competitive when I argue and I'm sorry it upsets you
16:36 [Felvystra]: I'll answer in a few healing this group
16:45 [Felvystra]: The orignal point beyond all other things is that people were talking shit about Athensia. Watching her stream, talking about much stuff she misses, how poor she is at boomkin, etc. And because she's not perfect it gives people the right to shit on her.
16:45 [Felvystra]: And because she doesn't do 10% higher it's such a huge deal. Even though you all were saying how much effort and skill was required to get to even 90 because it was so competitive
16:46 [Felvystra]: I get sick and tired of people dumping on other people. I hate it. And while everyone else might hate Athensia I don't. I see a lot of myself in her. Anxiety is a bitch to work with. And I wish she'd address it but it doesn't mean that it isn't hard
16:47 [Felvystra]: Your tanking was never in question, and you are a phenomenal tank. Nobody does it as good as you, never met anyone as good as you. That was never in question. The only thing I talked about was that because quite a few tanks of a different perception than
16:47 [Felvystra]: you (i.e. defense over offense) it makes parses easier to come by because so many tanks gear so much differently
16:48 [Felvystra]: I'm sorry that it upset you but it was never a personal attack, and I don't think I have ever personally attacked you or anyone in this guild. I try very hard to make sure that isn't something I do
16:48 [Aexo#1349]: All I'm going to say is this, nothing I argued was about Athensia as a person or a WoW player, but about parses in general
16:48 [Felvystra]: And really, I can subtract the but. I am sorry I upset you and it was not meant as a personal attack
16:48 [Aexo#1349]: I'll also say this, Athensia is not a sacred cow and is open to criticism, especially now that she's left the guild
16:49 [Felvystra]: Do you not have friends you defend
16:49 [Aexo#1349]: She does not have a patent on anxiety, anxiety and depression is something I've personally dealt with for years
16:50 [Felvystra]: She does not have a patent on it. Her struggles are her own. As are yours. I will never know your pain or all the things you've gone through and I have the utmost respect for every person who deals with depression and the pain that accompanies it
16:50 [Felvystra]: Just because you, or I, or someone else has experienced a pain doesn't give us the right to judge others
16:50 [Felvystra]: Our pain isn't somehow better or more important
16:50 [Aexo#1349]: But being in a guild leading position does give us the right to judge parses
16:51 [Aexo#1349]: And that's all I've ever done
16:51 [Felvystra]: You can judge parses without being a GM
16:51 [Felvystra]: You can judge parses being a potato on the street
16:51 [Aexo#1349]: My point is that her performance was a relevant factor, how I ever felt about her as a person was never relevant
16:52 [Aexo#1349]: Personally I've always liked her, and it hurts me that she's gone now and has removed me
16:52 [Felvystra]: And my being upset was never about you. The only thing I was upset with you over was talking over me
16:52 [Aexo#1349]: I'm sorry it bothers you, I don't do it intentionally and it's never personal during an argument like that
16:52 [Felvystra]: My beef is with Xent and Shane and how they were talking about her
16:53 [Felvystra]: I don't think you said anything mean about her
16:53 [Felvystra]: But I intensely dislike how much discussion is focused on her and how bad she is
16:53 [Felvystra]: There are other things to talk about
16:53 [Felvystra]: different topics than just shitting on someone
16:53 [Aexo#1349]: I feel like we spent the majority of the argument about tank vs. dps parses and difficulty of parsing in general
16:54 [Felvystra]: You took it there
16:54 [Felvystra]: And you kept it there
16:54 [Aexo#1349]: I think if you asked shane or xent they might have the same perception
16:54 [Felvystra]: I didn't get a choice in the matter
16:54 [Aexo#1349]: I didn't shit on anyone, I talked about tanking and parses
16:54 [Aexo#1349]: I talked about factors that go into parses
16:54 [Felvystra]: I know, and that's why I said that it wasn't with you
16:55 [Felvystra]: Only with the interrupting
16:55 [Felvystra]: Talkign with you over text is a million times easier because I can actually get my thoughts out
16:55 [Aexo#1349]: Yeah I guess I'm just a shitty communicator
16:56 [Felvystra]: I don't know. I'm not judging your communication
16:56 [Felvystra]: I'm only saying how it makes me feel
16:56 [Aexo#1349]: The next time something like what they were saying about athensia bothers you, say so
16:56 [Aexo#1349]: the next time I interrupt and it bothers you, say so
16:56 [Felvystra]: I tried and said it was rude, do you remember that
16:56 [Felvystra]: And you responded that you didn't care
16:57 [Aexo#1349]: not really honestly
16:57 [Aexo#1349]: the debate was pretty intense and maybe I glossed over it
16:57 [Felvystra]: I think I still have the logs if you want me to show you
16:57 [Aexo#1349]: voice logs?
16:57 [Felvystra]: No chat logs when you apologized after
16:57 [Aexo#1349]: you mean like a few days ago?
16:57 [Felvystra]: Yea
16:58 [Aexo#1349]: Yeah that time I said that on purpose because I was frustrated, I remember
16:58 [Aexo#1349]: I remember that, I don't remember you saying anything today
16:58 [Felvystra]: I didn't say anything today
16:58 [Felvystra]: I just gave up
16:59 [Aexo#1349]: well I'm sorry again that I interrupted you, I don't really remember doing it but if you point it out and say that it bothers you I won'
16:59 [Aexo#1349]: t do it
16:59 [Felvystra]: Alright, I will mention it next time
17:00 [Aexo#1349]: I get that it bothers you but if I'm being honest I think I'm just going to avoid having any kind of argument with you
17:00 [Felvystra]: That's fine too if you want to do that
17:00 [Aexo#1349]: I'm never trying to be anything but your friend but it's exhausting having these conversations
17:01 [Aexo#1349]: I really don't feel like I should have to remind you that we're friends
17:01 [Aexo#1349]: it hurts me
17:01 [Felvystra]: I don't need a reminder
17:01 [Felvystra]: You're always my friend
17:01 [Felvystra]: You might hurt my feelings but it doesn't mean you're not my friend
17:01 [Aexo#1349]: sometimes it just feels like you take it really hard and I've never meant it in that way
17:02 [Felvystra]: You can hurt my feelings, and be insensitive, or be an accidental jerk
17:02 [Felvystra]: But you'll always be my friend
17:02 [Aexo#1349]: alright, well I am sorry I hurt your feelings, I didn't mean to at all
17:02 [Felvystra]: I mean look at what even half of what Athensia has done to me
17:02 [Felvystra]: I don't think I've ever held anything against her
17:03 [Felvystra]: It's not like I make special exceptions for her. I'm just this kind of person.
17:03 [Felvystra]: I try to see the positive side of everyone
17:03 [Aexo#1349]: I know, I just get frustrated when something I've said hurt you and I really didn't mean it to
17:04 [Aexo#1349]: I want to understand it and not do it again
17:04 [Felvystra]: That's fair, I have a serious question for you that's going to sound silly though
17:04 [Felvystra]: And I don't mean it judgy
17:04 [Felvystra]: Have you had a really close gf before?
17:04 [Aexo#1349]: Yeah, not for a few years though
17:04 [Felvystra]: I think it's a women thing
17:04 [Felvystra]: I've dated guys and girls
17:04 [Felvystra]: And girls get hurt more easily
17:05 [Felvystra]: or more emotional, i think it's an estrogen thing
17:05 [Aexo#1349]: I kind of disagree, I think it's really more of an individual thing
17:05 [Felvystra]: bc when trans men take HRT (like women to men) they do the same thing
17:05 [Felvystra]: With that shit ton of testosterone
17:05 [Aexo#1349]: I've known very sensitive men and very abrasive women
17:06 [Felvystra]: That's a fair point too
17:06 [Felvystra]: Men do have feelings
17:06 [Felvystra]: Never been a fan of men not being able to express themselves
17:06 [Aexo#1349]: I'd consider myself pretty sentitive honestly, even though I don't show it
17:06 [Felvystra]: I think you are a pretty sensitive and caring person
17:06 [Aexo#1349]: I think it's wrong to say unable to express though
17:07 [Felvystra]: That's nto what I mean
17:07 [Aexo#1349]: I choose not to express often, it's how I choose to live
17:07 [Felvystra]: I mean society frowns on men doing it
17:07 [Felvystra]: And I don't think society should
17:07 [Felvystra]: Not that men can't
17:07 [Aexo#1349]: I don't think society told me to, it's that I want my feelings to matter when I do express them
17:07 [Felvystra]: That's fair too
17:07 [Felvystra]: but to draw back to a point you made earlier
17:07 [Aexo#1349]: When I do cry I want it to be for a damn good reason
17:08 [Aexo#1349]: even if things make me want to cry
17:08 [Felvystra]: well fun fact there ll
17:08 [Felvystra]: lol
17:08 [Felvystra]: they tested tears from women and men, and one of the reasons women cry more often is excess estrogen leaks out in the tears
17:08 [Felvystra]: thats why women feel better after crying :P
17:08 [Aexo#1349]: I know there is science and society influence in it, but at the end of the day it's still a choice
17:08 [Felvystra]: it is
17:09 [Felvystra]: and i wouldn't dream of taking it from you
17:09 [Felvystra]: but back to what i was saying. you said earlier that you wanted to not do things that upset me, esp when you are not trying to
17:09 [Felvystra]: i do try to be pretty good at telling people what stuff does bother me
17:09 [Felvystra]: and i did tell you about the interrupting thing before
17:10 [Aexo#1349]: I know, I was being a dick the other day and I recognize that
17:10 [Aexo#1349]: even shane told me about that one and I agree on it
17:11 [Felvystra]: i mean it arguably feels worse after ive told you for it to happen
17:11 [Felvystra]: bc before theres benefit of the doubt
17:12 [Aexo#1349]: I didn't interrupt you on purpose today, I don't recall doing it and I asked shane and he didn't really remember it either
17:12 [Felvystra]: I can't really pick it out exactly
17:12 [Aexo#1349]: I'm sure it happened, but it wasn't intentional
17:12 [Felvystra]: I was talking and then you interjected and it was like that was it
17:13 [Felvystra]: it's nice to feel like what i have to say matters yknow
17:13 [Felvystra]: and it doesnt feel like that when i get talked over
17:13 [Aexo#1349]: I know, I'm sorry it came across like that
17:13 [Aexo#1349]: that's a difference between us though
17:13 [Felvystra]: thats true
17:13 [Felvystra]: i'm nto saying what you're doing is wrong
17:13 [Aexo#1349]: I don't expect people to just take what I have at face value and accept it
17:13 [Felvystra]: just how makes me feel
17:14 [Aexo#1349]: I don't expect all my ideas to be heard or respected
17:14 [Aexo#1349]: I actively fight for it when it matters to me and I want to get my point across
17:14 [Felvystra]: you fight very well for it
17:14 [Aexo#1349]: If I stepped on your toes then I'm sorry, I didn't do it on purpose
17:15 [Felvystra]: you said earlier though that you felt you had to keep reminding me that you were my friend
17:15 [Aexo#1349]: The only reason I argue with you in the first place is because your ideas matter to me and I want to get you to undertsand my position
17:15 [Felvystra]: what did you mean by that?
17:15 [Aexo#1349]: I mean, when this shit kind of happens it feels like you hate me and just want to stop being friends
17:15 [Felvystra]: no, never
17:15 [Aexo#1349]: or that you don't think that I really consider you a friend
17:16 [Felvystra]: i also dont want you to think that
17:16 [Felvystra]: what is something i can do to communicate that better to you?
17:16 [Aexo#1349]: I've always been one to work through problems when they arise, when people retreat I feel like I've failed
17:16 [Aexo#1349]: and when you were talking in gchat about it before it felt really bad
17:17 [Felvystra]: i was being facetious and a bit tongue in cheek
17:17 [Felvystra]: not nice, certainly
17:17 [Aexo#1349]: That's fine, I just hate to leave things unresolved
17:18 [Aexo#1349]: that was always my biggest obstacle to dealing with athensia
17:18 [Felvystra]: honestly all your points ceased to matter to me and the whole thing became irrelevant when it felt like my opinion didnt matter
17:18 [Felvystra]: like whats the point of having a discussion if its one sided
17:18 [Felvystra]: or people call you dumb
17:18 [Aexo#1349]: I'm sorry, your opinion has always and will always matter to me
17:18 [Aexo#1349]: that's why I try to change it sometimes, because I always want you on my team
17:19 [Felvystra]: i apprecaite that, and that gives me a big grin :P
17:19 [Felvystra]: the only thing that i try to hang on to is that people matter, that absolutels are rare, and that ultimately everyone plays this game to have fun
17:19 [Felvystra]: Like that's what matters to me
17:19 [Felvystra]: That's the lens through which I view everything
17:20 [Aexo#1349]: I know
17:20 [Aexo#1349]: I enjoy the competition though, and I always want to see others participate in it and see them succeed
17:21 [Felvystra]: Competition is good
17:21 [Felvystra]: But I don't think it matters to everyone
17:21 [Aexo#1349]: I realize that
17:21 [Felvystra]: Like talking about parses is great
17:22 [Felvystra]: But I sacrifice a ton of my competiveness when I try to manage the raid as a whole
17:22 [Aexo#1349]: I know
17:22 [Felvystra]: But in the lens where only competition matters I should just stop trying to help
17:22 [Felvystra]: And only play at my peak
17:22 [Aexo#1349]: It's not just competition about parses I mean, competition in argument and debate
17:22 [Aexo#1349]: competition in general
17:22 [Aexo#1349]: I guess
17:23 [Felvystra]: competition at what cost, tho?
17:23 [Felvystra]: How much is being "right" worth?
17:23 [Aexo#1349]: it's not always about being right, but just having fun arguing
17:24 [Felvystra]: It seems like you do have to be right sometimes
17:24 [Felvystra]: or maybe that your world view is the only one
17:24 [Aexo#1349]: sometimes I get wrapped up in it, especially when it's something close to me
17:24 [Felvystra]: I've been guilty of that before myself
17:25 [Aexo#1349]: I don't discredit your world view, I'm just trying to get mine across
17:25 [Aexo#1349]: and again, that's something I've always tried to fight for, I don't expect anyone to just believe what I say
17:25 [Aexo#1349]: I like to be challenged and I want to prove my points
17:26 [Felvystra]: sidenote, arguing with 3 people at once, all making different points, is really taxing
17:26 [Aexo#1349]: I know, it wasn't a fair fight for you
17:26 [Felvystra]: just overwhelming and frustrating
17:26 [Aexo#1349]: we all realized that after you left
17:26 [Felvystra]: and hwen i get too frustrated i cry
17:26 [Felvystra]: bc i have to vent it
17:26 [Felvystra]: ive cried during M+ before lol
17:26 [Aexo#1349]: lol
17:27 [Aexo#1349]: I know, I'm sorry it gets to that point for you
17:27 [Aexo#1349]: nobody wants to see you cry, we're all friends here
17:27 [Felvystra]: I know :)
17:27 [Felvystra]: i'm not saying it to make anyone feel bad
17:27 [Felvystra]: it's one of the reasons I disappear to do it
17:27 [Felvystra]: nobody wants to hear me cry lol
17:28 [Aexo#1349]: theres nothing wrong with crying, I just want to try to be a better friend
17:28 [Felvystra]: you are a pretty good friend
17:28 [Felvystra]: you messaged me when it wasn't easy and put effort in
17:29 [Felvystra]: that's the sign of a good friend
17:30 [Felvystra]: we're good, don't worry
17:30 [Felvystra]: but for the record, we were never not good :p
17:30 [Felvystra]: and feel free to ask and i will always answer honestly
17:30 [Aexo#1349]: thanks, I just hate to see my friends upset and I want to fix it when it's my fault
17:30 [Felvystra]: to be fair it wasn't all your fault
17:31 [Felvystra]: shane sucks at apologizing
17:31 [Felvystra]: like hardcore
17:31 [Aexo#1349]: lol
17:31 [Felvystra]: so much worse
17:31 [Felvystra]: im not even sure he knows how
17:31 [Aexo#1349]: he does, but it takes time