burgers

* SSNTails ([email protected]) has joined
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<Charybdizs> hi
<SSNTails> Hey :)
<CobaltBW> hey ssntails, just out curiousity
<CobaltBW> what's the hardest part about game design in your opinion
<SSNTails> Oooh boy...
<SSNTails> Probably finishing the last 5% of a game
<SSNTails> another difficulty is tools
<SSNTails> Like right now, I'm actually making a whole custom level editor for RPP
<Charybdizs> hardest part about game design
<Charybdizs> designing the website for the game
<SSNTails> If you're talking commercial, marketing is at least half, if not more, of your effort
<SSNTails> if you want to be successful
<SSNTails> (so make something crap, and blow all your cash on marketing)
<Charybdizs> yeah I'm just sorta joking/commenting
<SSNTails> well, making the website is part of the marketing
<Charybdizs> I have done 0 web programming but two days ago I bought a web domain and got a host
<Charybdizs> and am putting together a website
<Charybdizs> learning as I go
<SSNTails> Integrating myBB with RPP was a cool experience
<SSNTails> I'd recommend it actually if you want to have online accounts, it makes a nice login system you can piggyback on
<Charybdizs> neato
<SSNTails> So why do you ask, CobaltBW?
<CobaltBW> like I said, just out of curiosity
<SSNTails> I would be happy to share code/info with you on how to do that, Wes
<CobaltBW> I'm working on a game myself
<CobaltBW> and just... well, I'm doing all of the work, basically
<SSNTails> Are you at least doing Unity or something?
<SSNTails> I know a lot of devs advocate outsourcing everything
<CobaltBW> it's game maker studio, but it's just a 2d platformer
<SSNTails> like, find a graphics dude. find a music dude. find an sfx dude. use a prebuilt gamemaker whenever possible
<CobaltBW> yeah, that's what I mean lol. the physics, controls, audio, and whatnot I built all by myself
<CobaltBW> I might be crazy
<CobaltBW> but I guess it's just a project I have a lot of sentiment for anyway
<SSNTails> doesn't game maker studio provide all that?
<CobaltBW> game maker's basically a jump-start on the coding aspect
<CobaltBW> but everything beyond that is a bunch of concoctions on my part
<CobaltBW> lately I've just been fiddling with an FMOD extension
<CobaltBW> which required me to transition over from my previous sound setup (which used game maker's emitter system)
<CobaltBW> sooo that was fun
<CobaltBW> the more I work on the game though, the more I learn about different facets of game designs
<CobaltBW> like, organizing data, the importance of good debug systems and developer tools
<CobaltBW> and just making better sound, graphics, and gameplay
<CobaltBW> unfortunately, marketing is not one of the things I've learned yet
<SSNTails> marketing stinks
<SSNTails> and a big problem is the commoditization of gaming
<SSNTails> Stuff like Unity has opened game creation to everybody, and while this has good aspects, it also creates an 80s-style market crash environment where you can't sift through the crap to find the good stuff
<CobaltBW> yeah
<SSNTails> I also sorta feel it has cut down on creativity -- folks used to mod games instead of make them with these tools
<CobaltBW> I was thinking I could just try and go thorugh the Greenlight system on Steam but...
<Charybdizs> uh
<CobaltBW> how do I make sure I get noticed the way something like Freedom Planet did
<Charybdizs> uhhhhhhhhh
<Charybdizs> okay honestly that's a really stupid statement
<Charybdizs> it is in the process of CREATING an 80s style market crash environment
<Charybdizs> but it's not HERE yet
<Charybdizs> in general that's not a problem for people at all
<SSNTails> I'm surprised it's not here yet, actually
<Charybdizs> a lot of creative games get a LOT of exposure, that they actually deserve
<SSNTails> like...?
<Charybdizs> CobaltBW, start with interviews
<Charybdizs> freedom planet
<Charybdizs> dust: an elysian tail
<Charybdizs> bastion
<SSNTails> Here's how freedom planet did it
<Charybdizs> valkyria chronicles
<SSNTails> I haven't heard of any of those, Charybdizs
<SSNTails> well, maybe valkyria
<Charybdizs> http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2015-01-08-bastion-sells-3-million-transistor-tops-600-000
<SSNTails> Freedom Planet was made up of longtime Sonic Retro folks
<Charybdizs> you must not watch the indie market much then
<Charybdizs> because those all achieved some pretty decent success
<Charybdizs> like
<SSNTails> and once you're in-bed with them, you can get a lot of favors
<Charybdizs> bastion was a TOP hit
<SSNTails> yeah, I don't follow the indie scene, because, lots of garbage
<Charybdizs> I don't think there's nearly as much garbage as you think
<CobaltBW> well
<CobaltBW> bread simulator
<Charybdizs> if you're not acquainted with some of the top hits then I doubt you're acquainted with the bottom sellers
<CobaltBW> goat simulator
<CobaltBW> plane simulator etc.
<Charybdizs> bread simulator was a very, very good game or so I hear
<Charybdizs> goat, not
<SSNTails> heh I played the Stanley Parable for a bit
<CobaltBW> it's very easy to get turned off by the scene when the front page gives you indie titles like that though
<Charybdizs> <SSNTails> I also sorta feel it has cut down on creativity -- folks used to mod games instead of make them with these tools
<Charybdizs> that's...
<SSNTails> You wouldn't see something like Quake 2 Superheroes today
<SSNTails> man, that mod was /awesome/
<CobaltBW> i think the indie scene probably peaked sometime in 2008, when stuff like braid and castle crashers was coming out
<SSNTails> yes, it's past-peak
<CobaltBW> which isn't to say we're not getting good stuff now
<CobaltBW> the problem is the market's oversaturated
<SSNTails> also, a lot of indie studios are funded by government grants
<CobaltBW> which makes my goal rather difficult
<SSNTails> like Drinkbox Studio (Guacamelee) in Canada, and PixelToys in the UK (which Sonikku currently works for)
<Charybdizs> <SSNTails> You wouldn't see something like Quake 2 Superheroes today
<SSNTails> Nothing wrong with that, but without that funding they would not be able to cover their costs
<Charybdizs> what's that?
<Charybdizs> I take serious issue with the "modding is more creative than original creations" standpoint either way
<SSNTails> freaking awesome Quake 2 mod where you can play as Batman with a grappling hook and swing around the city
<Charybdizs> that makes zero sense
<Charybdizs> ssntails, it's called batman: arkham asylum
<SSNTails> and fight superman over the internet?
<Charybdizs> they're critically acclaimed and REALLY well done games
<Charybdizs> not indie, mind you
<SSNTails> using a rocket launcher? :)
<SSNTails> and yes, the cool thing about modding is you take something existing, and change it in interesting ways
<Charybdizs> sure and nothing EXACTLY like gunstar heroes has ever been done after gunstar heroes too
<SSNTails> when you use a gamedev tool to start from scratch, you're often coming up with a lesser product
<SSNTails> because you don't have anything to 'go on'
<Charybdizs> but if you're going to talk about creativity you can't talk about the ideas that you've thought of, you've got to talk about the ideas that OTHER people are doing
<Charybdizs> how about, you know, Terraria
<Charybdizs> that's a real whopper
<CobaltBW> i could never get into terraria
<SSNTails> Creativity exists with the new format, too, but it's different
<CobaltBW> maybe it was just its artstyle
<SSNTails> Gary's Mod, Counterstrike, Team Fortress, those were all mods that then became their own game
<Charybdizs> whether you could get into it or not it's multi million profits speak for itself
<CobaltBW> i'm not trying to make a statement
<SSNTails> 1% of App Store profits go to 99% of the companies
<Charybdizs> I'm just sayin
<CobaltBW> actually i've lost interest in this conversation... lol
<SSNTails> 99% of App Store profits go to 1% of companies
<SSNTails> make billions, or make nothing
<Charybdizs> app store is a very different market than pc gaming, though
<Charybdizs> which is where the disconnect obviously is
<SSNTails> I imagine Steam is not very different
<Charybdizs> we're both talking from two different views here
<SSNTails> of course, it confounds me how I would have to do a Greenlight process to get a complete game on Steam when something like Depression Quest is available on there
<Charybdizs> steam is very different in that something different than blind luck is going on there
<Charybdizs> it's not nearly as flooded
<Charybdizs> and many independent developers are still meeting with satisfactory to awesome success
<SSNTails> i think those floodgates are going to burst sometime, though
<Charybdizs> of course, they always do
<SSNTails> one big rule of indie studios -- don't reveal how unsuccessful you are
<SSNTails> 'fake it till you make it'
<Charybdizs> I know plenty of unsuccessful ones too, ssntails
<Charybdizs> some of my buddies over in the edgeofspace project
<Charybdizs> there's no hiding that unsuccess lol
<Charybdizs> but that's not so much an issue of market problems
<Charybdizs> and I don't think most are at this point
<Charybdizs> it's just a matter of an inferior product
<Charybdizs> in other words their game sucks
<Charybdizs> which it does, bless their souls, they're such nice people
<Charybdizs> but they are quite bad game designers
<Charybdizs> or Artizens
<Charybdizs> hah
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<SSNTails> I don't mean to sound like some old crank, but I guess the point of what I'm trying to say to both of you is, don't expect any success.
<SSNTails> For all of our titles, Spazzo was very much the optimist
<SSNTails> He is now on the cusp of going to work for Gameloft, and right now I'm taking a break to further develop my technology before I decide what to do next.
<SSNTails> I might just piddle around and do hobby/fangame type stuff, i dont know
<Charybdizs> That'd be a more sensible idea I think, yeah
<Charybdizs> as it is roly and all just doesn't have the potential it would need to become something big
<SSNTails> it would need $$$
<SSNTails> $$ that I'm not willing to put down for it
<SSNTails> any for-hire help you do, they are going to want pay regardless of your success
<SSNTails> because really, there's no other way they can ensure they get compensated
<SSNTails> (this is where that government grant thing comes in)
<SSNTails> then you can pay everybody up front, and dont need an angel investor or to pony up a lot of your own money
<SSNTails> (and it's not cheap.. think thousands)
<Charybdizs> It'd need less outdated feeling tools, a better mascot, and would need to tap into something that is actually in demand
<Charybdizs> as in
<Charybdizs> not golf games
<SSNTails> lol yes i think the genre instantly makes it unattractive
<Charybdizs> the mascot does too
<Charybdizs> there's a lot wrong with roly
<Charybdizs> it's not BAD
<Charybdizs> but it doesn't have much to offer to the clamoring crowds
<SSNTails> but the concept could probably easily be retooled to 'Sonic's SpinHoles' and be successful
<SSNTails> I agree with all you said except the mascot. I see a lot of successful titles with really boring characters
<Charybdizs> Examples?
<SSNTails> the in-game model and animations, yes they could be better
<Charybdizs> I can't think of a single mascot that I know of that doesn't have serious character
<Charybdizs> or offer the player, as Tim Schafer puts it
<Charybdizs> dream fulfillment
<Charybdizs> on more popular sides, you have Mario, the completely ordinary guy who manages to make something of himself and save the beautiful princess of the land, you've got Link, the nameless, mysterious hero who rises up from  the nothing to wield power and overcome the evil around the land
<Charybdizs> You've got Chell, the admirably stubborn woman who never gives up fighting against her captor even when there is no hope for escape
<SSNTails> Those are examples of the unattainable
<Charybdizs> you've got Razputin, the psychomancing kid seeking to abandon his crappy home life and forge his future for himself in the fields of adventure
<SSNTails> The absolute superstars
<SSNTails> But by bland characters, see every JRPG, ever.
<SSNTails> So it sounds to me like the weakness you are describing is not necessarily the visual character itself, but the story or emotion
<Charybdizs> "the unattainable"
<Charybdizs> what does that mean?
<SSNTails> it means an indie isn't going to make a Super Mario
<Charybdizs> ooh ooh here's a great, homely one
<SSNTails> although I thought Drinkbox did pretty well with Guacamelee
<Charybdizs> the pokemon trainer!
<SSNTails> i never played pokemon
<Charybdizs> a normal, everyday kid, pandering to the wishes of every american child trapped in an average american town
<Charybdizs> unable to go explore the world around them
<SSNTails> So what you're kinda getting at is that RPP would need some kind of story
<Charybdizs> there's serious sociological factors behind why characters like that, even if ambiguous and total player avatars, are so fascinating
<SSNTails> like a little intro cutscene thing about why he has to play this golf game
<Charybdizs> well
<Charybdizs> uh
<Charybdizs> no that wasn't really what I was getting at
<SSNTails> like a kid plucked him from a log and trapped him in this hellish prison
<Charybdizs> your entire GAME should be structured around this idea of wish fulfillment
<Charybdizs> a story plopped on top of an irrelevant game is just kinda incongruous
<SSNTails> hehehe
<SSNTails> so now I'm hearing from you that it's not an issue with the character, it's a problem with the gameplay itself
<Charybdizs> I said it was an issue with most of it
<Charybdizs> the gameplay is golf
<Charybdizs> the character is golf
<Charybdizs> there's not golf on the average consumer's heart and mind today
<SSNTails> lol
<Charybdizs> hmm
<Charybdizs> I have to go cook dinner
<Charybdizs> so sorry to cut this short
<Charybdizs> but burgers demand my attention
<SSNTails> np :)
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