chellaranier

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Jan 22nd, 2013
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  1. [17:02:56] Avensys > @audeles the answer is yes, there are market bots - but either ccp is horrible at detecting them or there are a lot less than you'd naively suspect
  2. [17:03:26] Avensys > as to how they work - they manage orders much like a human would, the method of interaction with the client differs from bot to bot
  3. [17:04:35] Audeles Tzarish > wondering if i can faorce them to cut down selling price enough to match my buy price
  4. [17:05:16] Avensys > it would be trivial for a bot author to prevent being manipulated in that way
  5. [17:06:06] Avensys > "don't adjust orders by more than x% in one update"<br>"don't let the spread between buy/sell become smaller than x%"<br>"don't deviate more than x% from the average price of the past few days"
  6. [17:06:15] Avensys > would have to be a really stupid bot to be manipulated that easily
  7. [17:06:46] Audeles Tzarish > i suppose, but the world is full of stupid people :D
  8. [17:06:48] Audeles Tzarish > tnx
  9. [17:06:53] Avensys > I know of only one market bot that is publicly up for sale
  10. [17:07:10] Avensys > with market bots more than with other bots you can probably make more just using the bot
  11. [17:07:25] Avensys > rather than selling it (and overcrowding amrkets that are well-suited for bots"
  12. [17:08:03] Avensys > I'd expect most market bots to be custom-made and used by their authors
  13. [17:09:09] Audeles Tzarish > ok, so i don't have to relay on bot user stupidity but on but creator cleverness ;D
  14. [17:09:14] Audeles Tzarish > tnx
  15. [17:09:18] Avensys > but as I said the total number of market bots is probably very low
  16. [17:09:32] Avensys > and the number of no-life human traders high
  17. [17:09:42] Audeles Tzarish > yup
  18. [18:14:02] sidetanker > <url=showinfo:1373//406729491>Avensys</url> dont hate the player, hate the game
  19. [18:14:53] Avensys > I only hate ccp
  20. [18:15:28] Avensys > I'd like for market bots to be legal with a standardized API provided by ccp
  21. [18:16:00] Avensys > make people focus on the algorithms they use to update their orders and prices
  22. [18:16:12] Phere Shihari > why so? that would make trading rather pointless
  23. [18:16:14] Avensys > rather than on adjusting orders manuall y by 0.01 ISK every 5 minutes
  24. [18:16:16] sidetanker > so every 4 mins your market order would be the lowest?
  25. [18:16:49] Avensys > it would ake stupid trading entirely pointless
  26. [18:16:57] Avensys > or at leats mostly pointless
  27. [18:17:08] sidetanker > you sound like you need to adapt your trading methods
  28. [18:17:18] Phere Shihari > what is your problem Avensys?
  29. [18:17:19] sidetanker > I trade in a way where 0.01'ers actions affect me very little
  30. [18:17:31] Phere Shihari > I still hope to find a geniue market bot in eve
  31. [18:17:38] Avensys > I don't have any "problem"
  32. [18:17:42] sidetanker > you just need to adapt to your own set of circumstances - thats how the best pilots survive in eve
  33. [18:17:48] Avensys > I think legalized market bots would make traders think more
  34. [18:17:57] Avensys > and eliminate a part of the game that is only tedious
  35. [18:18:04] Sugar Kyle > ...
  36. [18:18:10] Sugar Kyle > I think we should juset let bots in the game..
  37. [18:18:11] sidetanker > its only tedious if you take part in it!
  38. [18:18:13] Phere Shihari > why so?
  39. [18:18:20] Phere Shihari > I kind of like trading as it is
  40. [18:18:26] sidetanker > +1
  41. [18:18:33] Phere Shihari > why is it tedious?
  42. [18:18:53] Avensys > because you only work like a mchine
  43. [18:19:00] Avensys > updating order by some fixed algorithm
  44. [18:19:07] Sugar Kyle > I can not even comprehend where there is sense in letting market bots come in as an 'accpetable' thing to cure tedium
  45. [18:19:18] Sugar Kyle > its your choice to engage in the action int he first place
  46. [18:19:33] Avensys > free us up to concentrate on the fun part
  47. [18:19:34] Gevlon Goblin > Cut deep and the bots run screaming
  48. [18:19:37] Sugar Kyle > there is more to do then sit there updating your orders like a machine. If someone is doing that they made the choice to do that
  49. [18:19:42] Avensys > on picking the irght items and the right algorithms
  50. [18:19:44] Sugar Kyle > then go and have fun
  51. [18:19:49] Sugar Kyle > no one said you had to sit on the market and be bored
  52. [18:19:57] Avensys > maybe even give us the possibility to trade algorithms
  53. [18:20:18] Avensys > charge fees for order modifications but remove the 5 minute limit
  54. [18:20:26] Sugar Kyle > it sounds more like you are suggesting "dear ccp make the market automatic for me becuase I obsess over it"
  55. [18:20:55] Avensys > I don't even trade at the moment and when I traded I only updated orders 1-2 times per day
  56. [18:20:58] Avensys > and di just fine
  57. [18:21:11] Sugar Kyle > then why would you suggest CCP accept botting into the game?
  58. [18:21:14] Gevlon Goblin > After market bots, we can have mining and mission bots. Then PvP bots so we don't have to play at all
  59. [18:21:17] Avensys > but it's frustrating to see people spend hours upon hours with menial tasks
  60. [18:21:22] Sugar Kyle > they WANT to
  61. [18:21:24] Sugar Kyle > no one makes them
  62. [18:21:32] Avensys > when there is so much potential
  63. [18:21:49] Sugar Kyle > they could undock and do something else but some people absoutly enjoy it to the end of this universe and back they enjoy sitting and obsesing ont he market
  64. [18:21:51] Avensys > for creativity and ingenuity
  65. [18:22:04] Avensys > mission running is stupid, too
  66. [18:22:08] Sugar Kyle > and you think botting will bring out creativity and ingenuity?
  67. [18:22:09] Avensys > but it doesn't ahve that sort of potential
  68. [18:22:12] Avensys > yes
  69. [18:22:34] Sugar Kyle > please tell me how
  70. [18:22:49] Avensys > look at algorithmic trading irl
  71. [18:23:17] Avensys > a lot of thought goes into devising trading strategies for "bots"
  72. [18:23:31] Samuel Blaine > as a programmer, i get your point, but i still don't agree
  73. [18:23:52] Samuel Blaine > i'd love to code bots, but they would change the game, even ruin it
  74. [18:23:57] Avensys > crazy statistical model (often lifted from physics)
  75. [18:24:03] Avensys > economic models
  76. [18:24:10] Avensys > experience
  77. [18:24:26] Avensys > safeguards to prevent them from getting gamed or partcipating in amrket crashs by accident
  78. [18:24:28] Gevlon Goblin > But then we could have PvP bots too and it would be a race between AI programmers
  79. [18:24:35] Phere Shihari > well and all that good programs couldn'T earn much , as someone would just sell a good bot and everyone would use it
  80. [18:24:37] Avensys > I would enjoy playing that game :D
  81. [18:24:41] Avensys > qGevlon
  82. [18:24:55] Gevlon Goblin > Me too. But I doubt 1000 subscribers would be enough
  83. [18:25:05] Avensys > @Phere then peoploe would tailor other bots to specifically exploit the behavior of that bot
  84. [18:25:10] Samuel Blaine > if i had a lottery winning bot, sure as hell i wouldn't sell it
  85. [18:25:18] Samuel Blaine > people would sell mediocre bots
  86. [18:25:20] Gevlon Goblin > In video games menial tasks PURPOSEFULLY exist to allow dumb but laborious players to "win"
  87. [18:25:32] Samuel Blaine > ^^
  88. [18:25:36] Avensys > I don't expect ccp to legalize bots
  89. [18:25:42] Avensys > but I would like them to do it :D
  90. [18:25:47] Avensys > just to see what happens
  91. [18:25:52] Avensys > I think I'd enjoy the resulting game
  92. [18:26:04] Phere Shihari > well, I could tell you what happens Avensys.
  93. [18:26:13] Gevlon Goblin > Easy: the botters would totally devastate 95% of the players who would quit
  94. [18:26:23] Phere Shihari > no actually not Gevlon
  95. [18:26:26] Phere Shihari > it is worse
  96. [18:26:36] Thoris Brundtland > point of a game is to play it not to have it played for you
  97. [18:26:49] Phere Shihari > some people would simply start to sell really good bots... for rl money
  98. [18:27:26] Gevlon Goblin > And then there wouldn't even be programmers competition anymore.
  99. [18:27:31] Phere Shihari > so everyone is flying around with good bots, programmers can't do better than the fulltime botmakers, in the end, the game is completely dead
  100. [18:28:22] Gevlon Goblin > It would be awesome though: people would pay to botmakers so they wouldnt' have to play the game they pay for
  101. [18:28:52] Samuel Blaine > it would be a programmer's arena
  102. [18:29:04] Phere Shihari > you can already have automated marketstrategies as is. I am tempted to try to prove it
  103. [18:29:06] Avensys > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Core_War
  104. [18:29:08] sidetanker > sounds like a boring game
  105. [18:29:11] sidetanker > i prefer it how it is
  106. [18:29:18] Samuel Blaine > actually, a test server would be good for the purpose - provided that you disclose the source to ccp
  107. [18:29:19] sidetanker > if you want to take trading seriously
  108. [18:29:23] sidetanker > go play the stock market
  109. [18:29:27] Samuel Blaine > in the live server, they would eliminate bots easier
  110. [18:29:32] sidetanker > get your fat ass of the game
  111. [18:29:38] sidetanker > and make some real money!
  112. [18:29:40] Samuel Blaine > in the test server, you could enjoy your botness
  113. [18:30:08] Samuel Blaine > what do you think of the idea? :)
  114. [18:30:32] sidetanker > there is no right or wrong in game like eve, there is no winning or anything like that - its just a tool where people can make pretend with spaceships
  115. [18:30:42] Avensys > you can already enjoy botting on the live server if you only want to
  116. [18:30:47] sidetanker > dont look too far into it and dont stress about people who are happy to 0.01
  117. [18:30:48] Phere Shihari > well I didn't say bot, I said automated marketstrategies... I.e. a program that gives you advice on trading
  118. [18:31:11] Avensys > @phere every trader has that sort of program already running in his head
  119. [18:31:19] Samuel Blaine > market scanners are legal
  120. [18:31:21] Samuel Blaine > i think
  121. [18:31:29] Avensys > yes, they are
  122. [18:31:42] Samuel Blaine > you can build a database then
  123. [18:31:46] Samuel Blaine > and work some sql magic
  124. [18:31:49] Samuel Blaine > it's not even that hard
  125. [18:31:56] Gevlon Goblin > By the way I don't really understand botting. If you don't like the game, don't play it. Paying a third party programmer to play your hobby for you is like paying a guy to have sex with your wife so you don't have to
  126. [18:32:24] Samuel Blaine > <url=showinfo:1373//91662677>Gevlon Goblin</url> been there, done that :D
  127. [18:32:25] Avensys > but are you going to argue now that the act of physically pushing butan on each item to implement the suggestions of your program is the lien between success and failure of eve?
  128. [18:32:27] Thoris Brundtland > there are ppl like that
  129. [18:32:28] Annatar Gorgodur > botting is just like buying isk
  130. [18:32:47] Samuel Blaine > btw they are not botting for the in-game gains, they are probably selling the isk for $$
  131. [18:33:01] Phere Shihari > Gevlon: it is for the same people as the plex buyers... they want to spend money they don't have
  132. 28] Annatar Gorgodur > botting is just like buying isk
  133. [18:32:47] Samuel Blaine > btw they are not botting for the in-game gains, they are probably selling the isk for $$
  134. [18:33:01] Phere Shihari > Gevlon: it is for the same people as the plex buyers... they want to spend money they don't have
  135. [18:33:57] Phere Shihari > if you could get a loan in eve, they would have a deep negative balance but all the clothes from the aur store
  136. [18:33:57] Samuel Blaine > i'd enjoy making a bot, i admit.. but i don't see the point either, i'd make more money simply programming at a job
  137. [18:34:29] Samuel Blaine > Actually, a loaning system would be nice for this game
  138. [18:34:42] Sugar Kyle > they used to have one
  139. [18:34:43] Sugar Kyle > they removed it
  140. [18:34:51] Sugar Kyle > because how do you force a loan to be paid back?
  141. [18:35:09] Sugar Kyle > i think they had some serious interest rate scams that they couldnget rid of
  142. [18:35:48] Avensys > the system was like courier contracts in the sense that a loan contract could be broken without an yrepercussions
  143. [18:35:56] Samuel Blaine > negative balance, only characters of certain age can do it, etc.
  144. [18:36:06] Samuel Blaine > or you can "mortgage" your stuff
  145. [18:36:21] Avensys > there are many srevices that will offer you a loan against collateral
  146. [18:36:25] Samuel Blaine > if you don't bay, the bank takes your spaceship :D
  147. [18:36:40] Avensys > if your collateral are blueprints you want to manufacture from a real "mortgage" system works, too
  148. [18:36:49] Samuel Blaine > (sorry for emoticons, trying to quit the habit)
  149. [18:36:52] Thoris Brundtland > that coulkd be manipulated easily i think
  150. [18:37:01] Samuel Blaine > so does anything
  151. [18:37:05] Avensys > guy who gives you a loan locks down the BPOs and gives you access rights to manufacture off them
  152. [18:37:19] Avensys > when the loan is paid back he unlocks BPOs and returns them
  153. [18:37:32] Avensys > you can use the for the full duration of the loan
  154. [18:37:47] Avensys > used to be many investment opportunities like that
  155. [18:37:54] Avensys > in 2007/2008
  156. [18:38:13] Avensys > but today most people don't want loans for manufacturing anymorel, they just want money for station trading
  157. [18:38:38] Samuel Blaine > i think it could work, there would be scams/exploits, but the game's every aspect gets hacked all the time
  158. [18:39:16] Avensys > I don't see an issue with the current reputation and trust based systemn
  159. [18:40:13] Avensys > much nicer to have someone like Grendell or TornSoul who is trusted (at the risk of them turning rogue) rather than only having people who don't scam because they can't
  160. [18:41:18] Avensys > I'd be in favor of making it a little harder to dispose of alts
  161. [18:41:38] Avensys > so that players can police their communities more effectively
  162. [18:42:08] Avensys > but I wouldn't want CCP to play watchdog
  163. [18:42:29] Samuel Blaine > they should work towards a self-regulating system
  164. [18:42:47] Samuel Blaine > give players the tools for policing and regulating
  165. [18:43:36] Avensys > in my experience a strong community is the best safeguard
  166. [18:44:09] Avensys > goons give out loans internally, often unsecured
  167. [18:44:24] Avensys > you scam, you get blacklisted
  168. [18:44:51] Avensys > the collateral is a person's standing in the goonswarm and SA community
  169. [18:45:15] Avensys > and as it is hard to build a reputation within thse communities it is not something that is easily thrown away
  170. [18:45:38] Avensys > scam goons and get your SA account balcklisted
  171. [18:46:14] Avensys > have fun paying $10 and making another ~100 posts on SA (over > 3 months) before they will accept your new account into goonswarm
  172. [18:48:12] Avensys > If EVE players had stronger communities trust would be far less of an issue
  173. [18:48:23] Avensys > as there would always be implicit collateral
  174. [19:04:39] Nwabudike O'Neil > I need to find more people to play with
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