[17:02:56] Avensys > @audeles the answer is yes, there are market bots - but either ccp is horrible at detecting them or there are a lot less than you'd naively suspect
[17:03:26] Avensys > as to how they work - they manage orders much like a human would, the method of interaction with the client differs from bot to bot
[17:04:35] Audeles Tzarish > wondering if i can faorce them to cut down selling price enough to match my buy price
[17:05:16] Avensys > it would be trivial for a bot author to prevent being manipulated in that way
[17:06:06] Avensys > "don't adjust orders by more than x% in one update"<br>"don't let the spread between buy/sell become smaller than x%"<br>"don't deviate more than x% from the average price of the past few days"
[17:06:15] Avensys > would have to be a really stupid bot to be manipulated that easily
[17:06:46] Audeles Tzarish > i suppose, but the world is full of stupid people :D
[17:06:48] Audeles Tzarish > tnx
[17:06:53] Avensys > I know of only one market bot that is publicly up for sale
[17:07:10] Avensys > with market bots more than with other bots you can probably make more just using the bot
[17:07:25] Avensys > rather than selling it (and overcrowding amrkets that are well-suited for bots"
[17:08:03] Avensys > I'd expect most market bots to be custom-made and used by their authors
[17:09:09] Audeles Tzarish > ok, so i don't have to relay on bot user stupidity but on but creator cleverness ;D
[17:09:14] Audeles Tzarish > tnx
[17:09:18] Avensys > but as I said the total number of market bots is probably very low
[17:09:32] Avensys > and the number of no-life human traders high
[17:09:42] Audeles Tzarish > yup
[18:14:02] sidetanker > <url=showinfo:1373//406729491>Avensys</url> dont hate the player, hate the game
[18:14:53] Avensys > I only hate ccp
[18:15:28] Avensys > I'd like for market bots to be legal with a standardized API provided by ccp
[18:16:00] Avensys > make people focus on the algorithms they use to update their orders and prices
[18:16:12] Phere Shihari > why so? that would make trading rather pointless
[18:16:14] Avensys > rather than on adjusting orders manuall y by 0.01 ISK every 5 minutes
[18:16:16] sidetanker > so every 4 mins your market order would be the lowest?
[18:16:49] Avensys > it would ake stupid trading entirely pointless
[18:16:57] Avensys > or at leats mostly pointless
[18:17:08] sidetanker > you sound like you need to adapt your trading methods
[18:17:18] Phere Shihari > what is your problem Avensys?
[18:17:19] sidetanker > I trade in a way where 0.01'ers actions affect me very little
[18:17:31] Phere Shihari > I still hope to find a geniue market bot in eve
[18:17:38] Avensys > I don't have any "problem"
[18:17:42] sidetanker > you just need to adapt to your own set of circumstances - thats how the best pilots survive in eve
[18:17:48] Avensys > I think legalized market bots would make traders think more
[18:17:57] Avensys > and eliminate a part of the game that is only tedious
[18:18:04] Sugar Kyle > ...
[18:18:10] Sugar Kyle > I think we should juset let bots in the game..
[18:18:11] sidetanker > its only tedious if you take part in it!
[18:18:13] Phere Shihari > why so?
[18:18:20] Phere Shihari > I kind of like trading as it is
[18:18:26] sidetanker > +1
[18:18:33] Phere Shihari > why is it tedious?
[18:18:53] Avensys > because you only work like a mchine
[18:19:00] Avensys > updating order by some fixed algorithm
[18:19:07] Sugar Kyle > I can not even comprehend where there is sense in letting market bots come in as an 'accpetable' thing to cure tedium
[18:19:18] Sugar Kyle > its your choice to engage in the action int he first place
[18:19:33] Avensys > free us up to concentrate on the fun part
[18:19:34] Gevlon Goblin > Cut deep and the bots run screaming
[18:19:37] Sugar Kyle > there is more to do then sit there updating your orders like a machine.  If someone is doing that they made the choice to do that
[18:19:42] Avensys > on picking the irght items and the right algorithms
[18:19:44] Sugar Kyle > then go and have fun
[18:19:49] Sugar Kyle > no one said you had to sit on the market and be bored
[18:19:57] Avensys > maybe even give us the possibility to trade algorithms
[18:20:18] Avensys > charge fees for order modifications but remove the 5 minute limit
[18:20:26] Sugar Kyle > it sounds more like you are suggesting "dear ccp make the market automatic for me becuase I obsess over it"
[18:20:55] Avensys > I don't even trade at the moment and when I traded I only updated orders 1-2 times per day
[18:20:58] Avensys > and di just fine
[18:21:11] Sugar Kyle > then why would you suggest CCP accept botting into the game?
[18:21:14] Gevlon Goblin > After market bots, we can have mining and mission bots. Then PvP bots so we don't have to play at all
[18:21:17] Avensys > but it's frustrating to see people spend hours upon hours with menial tasks
[18:21:22] Sugar Kyle > they WANT to
[18:21:24] Sugar Kyle > no one makes them
[18:21:32] Avensys > when there is so much potential
[18:21:49] Sugar Kyle > they could undock and do something else but some people absoutly enjoy it to the end of this universe and back they enjoy sitting and obsesing ont he market
[18:21:51] Avensys > for creativity and ingenuity
[18:22:04] Avensys > mission running is stupid, too
[18:22:08] Sugar Kyle > and you think botting will bring out creativity and ingenuity?
[18:22:09] Avensys > but it doesn't ahve that sort of potential
[18:22:12] Avensys > yes
[18:22:34] Sugar Kyle > please tell me how
[18:22:49] Avensys > look at algorithmic trading irl
[18:23:17] Avensys > a lot of thought goes into devising trading strategies for "bots"
[18:23:31] Samuel Blaine > as a programmer, i get your point, but i still don't agree
[18:23:52] Samuel Blaine > i'd love to code bots, but they would change the game, even ruin it
[18:23:57] Avensys > crazy statistical model (often lifted from physics)
[18:24:03] Avensys > economic models
[18:24:10] Avensys > experience
[18:24:26] Avensys > safeguards to prevent them from getting gamed or partcipating in amrket crashs by accident
[18:24:28] Gevlon Goblin > But then we could have PvP bots too and it would be a race between AI programmers
[18:24:35] Phere Shihari > well and all that good programs couldn'T earn much , as someone would just sell a good bot and everyone would use it
[18:24:37] Avensys > I would enjoy playing that game :D
[18:24:41] Avensys > qGevlon
[18:24:55] Gevlon Goblin > Me too. But I doubt 1000 subscribers would be enough
[18:25:05] Avensys > @Phere then peoploe would tailor other bots to specifically exploit the behavior of that bot
[18:25:10] Samuel Blaine > if i had a lottery winning bot, sure as hell i wouldn't sell it
[18:25:18] Samuel Blaine > people would sell mediocre bots
[18:25:20] Gevlon Goblin > In video games menial tasks PURPOSEFULLY exist to allow dumb but laborious players to "win"
[18:25:32] Samuel Blaine > ^^
[18:25:36] Avensys > I don't expect ccp to legalize bots
[18:25:42] Avensys > but I would like them to do it :D
[18:25:47] Avensys > just to see what happens
[18:25:52] Avensys > I think I'd enjoy the resulting game
[18:26:04] Phere Shihari > well, I could tell you what happens Avensys.
[18:26:13] Gevlon Goblin > Easy: the botters would totally devastate 95% of the players who would quit
[18:26:23] Phere Shihari > no actually not Gevlon
[18:26:26] Phere Shihari > it is worse
[18:26:36] Thoris Brundtland > point of a game is to play it not to have it played for you
[18:26:49] Phere Shihari > some people would simply start to sell really good bots... for rl money
[18:27:26] Gevlon Goblin > And then there wouldn't even be programmers competition anymore.
[18:27:31] Phere Shihari > so everyone is flying around with good bots, programmers can't do better than the fulltime botmakers, in the end, the game is completely dead
[18:28:22] Gevlon Goblin > It would be awesome though: people would pay to botmakers so they wouldnt' have to play the game they pay for
[18:28:52] Samuel Blaine > it would be a programmer's arena
[18:29:04] Phere Shihari > you can already have automated marketstrategies as is. I am tempted to try to prove it
[18:29:06] Avensys > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Core_War
[18:29:08] sidetanker > sounds like a boring game
[18:29:11] sidetanker > i prefer it how it is
[18:29:18] Samuel Blaine > actually, a test server would be good for the purpose - provided that you disclose the source to ccp
[18:29:19] sidetanker > if you want to take trading seriously
[18:29:23] sidetanker > go play the stock market
[18:29:27] Samuel Blaine > in the live server, they would eliminate bots easier
[18:29:32] sidetanker > get your fat ass of the game
[18:29:38] sidetanker > and make some real money!
[18:29:40] Samuel Blaine > in the test server, you could enjoy your botness
[18:30:08] Samuel Blaine > what do you think of the idea? :)
[18:30:32] sidetanker > there is no right or wrong in  game like eve, there is no winning or anything like that - its just a tool where people can make pretend with spaceships
[18:30:42] Avensys > you can already enjoy botting on the live server if you only want to
[18:30:47] sidetanker > dont look too far into it and dont stress about people who are happy to 0.01
[18:30:48] Phere Shihari > well I didn't say bot, I said automated marketstrategies... I.e. a program that gives you advice on trading
[18:31:11] Avensys > @phere every trader has that sort of program already running in his head
[18:31:19] Samuel Blaine > market scanners are legal
[18:31:21] Samuel Blaine > i think
[18:31:29] Avensys > yes, they are
[18:31:42] Samuel Blaine > you can build a database then
[18:31:46] Samuel Blaine > and work some sql magic
[18:31:49] Samuel Blaine > it's not even that hard
[18:31:56] Gevlon Goblin > By the way I don't really understand botting. If you don't like the game, don't play it. Paying a third party programmer to play your hobby for you is like paying a guy to have sex with your wife so you don't have to
[18:32:24] Samuel Blaine > <url=showinfo:1373//91662677>Gevlon Goblin</url> been there, done that :D
[18:32:25] Avensys > but are you going to argue now that the act of physically pushing butan on each item to implement the suggestions of your program is the lien between success and failure of eve?
[18:32:27] Thoris Brundtland > there are ppl like that
[18:32:28] Annatar Gorgodur > botting is just like buying isk
[18:32:47] Samuel Blaine > btw they are not botting for the in-game gains, they are probably selling the isk for $$
[18:33:01] Phere Shihari > Gevlon: it is for the same people as the plex buyers... they want to spend money they don't have
28] Annatar Gorgodur > botting is just like buying isk
[18:32:47] Samuel Blaine > btw they are not botting for the in-game gains, they are probably selling the isk for $$
[18:33:01] Phere Shihari > Gevlon: it is for the same people as the plex buyers... they want to spend money they don't have
[18:33:57] Phere Shihari > if you could get a loan in eve, they would have a deep negative balance but all the clothes from the aur store
[18:33:57] Samuel Blaine > i'd enjoy making a bot, i admit.. but i don't see the point either, i'd make more money simply programming at a job
[18:34:29] Samuel Blaine > Actually, a loaning system would be nice for this game
[18:34:42] Sugar Kyle > they used to have one
[18:34:43] Sugar Kyle > they removed it
[18:34:51] Sugar Kyle > because how do you force a loan to be paid back?
[18:35:09] Sugar Kyle > i think they had some serious interest rate scams that they couldnget rid of
[18:35:48] Avensys > the system was like courier contracts in the sense that a loan contract could be broken without an yrepercussions
[18:35:56] Samuel Blaine > negative balance, only characters of certain age can do it, etc.
[18:36:06] Samuel Blaine > or you can "mortgage" your stuff
[18:36:21] Avensys > there are many srevices that will offer you a loan against collateral
[18:36:25] Samuel Blaine > if you don't bay, the bank takes your spaceship :D
[18:36:40] Avensys > if your collateral are blueprints you want to manufacture from a real "mortgage" system works, too
[18:36:49] Samuel Blaine > (sorry for emoticons, trying to quit the habit)
[18:36:52] Thoris Brundtland > that coulkd be manipulated easily i think
[18:37:01] Samuel Blaine > so does anything
[18:37:05] Avensys > guy who gives you a loan locks down the BPOs and gives you access rights to manufacture off them
[18:37:19] Avensys > when the loan is paid back he unlocks BPOs and returns them
[18:37:32] Avensys > you can use the for the full duration of the loan
[18:37:47] Avensys > used to be many investment opportunities like that
[18:37:54] Avensys > in 2007/2008
[18:38:13] Avensys > but today most people don't want loans for manufacturing anymorel, they just want money for station trading
[18:38:38] Samuel Blaine > i think it could work, there would be scams/exploits, but the game's every aspect gets hacked all the time
[18:39:16] Avensys > I don't see an issue with the current reputation and trust based systemn
[18:40:13] Avensys > much nicer to have someone like Grendell or TornSoul who is trusted (at the risk of them turning rogue) rather than only having people who don't scam because they can't
[18:41:18] Avensys > I'd be in favor of making it a little harder to dispose of alts
[18:41:38] Avensys > so that players can police their communities more effectively
[18:42:08] Avensys > but I wouldn't want CCP to play watchdog
[18:42:29] Samuel Blaine > they should work towards a self-regulating system
[18:42:47] Samuel Blaine > give players the tools for policing and regulating
[18:43:36] Avensys > in my experience a strong community is the best safeguard
[18:44:09] Avensys > goons give out loans internally, often unsecured
[18:44:24] Avensys > you scam, you get blacklisted
[18:44:51] Avensys > the collateral is a person's standing in the goonswarm and SA community
[18:45:15] Avensys > and as it is hard to build a reputation within thse communities it is not something that is easily thrown away
[18:45:38] Avensys > scam goons and get your SA account balcklisted
[18:46:14] Avensys > have fun paying $10 and making another ~100 posts on SA (over > 3 months) before they will accept your new account into goonswarm
[18:48:12] Avensys > If EVE players had stronger communities trust would be far less of an issue
[18:48:23] Avensys > as there would always be implicit collateral
[19:04:39] Nwabudike O'Neil > I need to find more people to play with